Kogi State probably stands out more than any other Nigerian state in its own unique way. I know it borders 9 states (10 including Abuja/F.C. territory), represents the main kind of ethnic groups in the whole of Nigeria (the northern/Hausa-inclined, Yoruba and Igbo + the likes of Idoma) and that the main three tribes are Igala, Okun (a Yoruba subgroup) and Igbira/Ebira. Anyone know if the case of Okun is similar to Ika/Ukwuani/Ikwerre (mere subgroups of an overarching tribe who have dissociated and don’t see themselves as Yoruba or Igbo) and what’s the case of Igala people speaking Yoruba in addition to their Yoruboid language, etc.?

Am from Kogi and an Okun person...
We're 100% Yorubas

zykson:
Am from Kogi and an Okun person...
We're 100% Yorubas

Fair-enough. And what about Aworos? Subgroup of Okun?

Probz:
I see. And what about Aworos? Subgroup of Okun?

'Oworos'? They ain't really Okuns they just speak a language similar to Yorubas and are in the western part of the state alongside Okuns.

zykson:
'Oworos'? They ain't really Okuns they just speak a language similar to Yorubas and are in the western part of the state alongside Okuns.

I thought they identify as Okun.

Idomas are igbos?

Ersan:
Idomas are igbos?

Is that what I said?

Probz:
Kogi State probably stands out more than any other Nigerian state in its own unique way. I know it borders 9 states (10 including Abuja/F.C. territory), represents the main kind of ethnic groups in the whole of Nigeria (the northern/Hausa-inclined, Yoruba and Igbo + the likes of Idoma) and that the main three tribes are Igala, Okun (a Yoruba subgroup) and Igbira/Ebira. Anyone know if the case of Okun is similar to Ika/Ukwuani/Ikwerre (mere subgroups of an overarching tribe who have dissociated and don’t see themselves as Yoruba or Igbo) and what’s the case of Igala people speaking Yoruba in addition to their Yoruboid language, etc.?

Yes I see where you are coming from. The name "Okun" comes from the way Yoruba groups in Kogi greet each other. Okun is an umbrella term term for Yagba, Bunu, Owe, Ijumu, and Oworo people and yes they are Yoruba through the dialect continuum and the shared origin/mythology. As for a comparison with Ika/Ukwani/Ikwerre, I can only think of the Itsekiri. Although their dialect is similar to the Ilaje and Ikale dialects of Ondo state, they've maintained their distinction from Yoruba people. Some of their culture bear resemblance to Bini due to proximity/history similarly to Ika and others.
Yes Igala people are distinct, even though there are similarities between the two languages.

9jakool:


Yes I see where you are coming from. The name "Okun" comes from the way Yoruba groups in Kogi greet each other. Okun is an umbrella term term for Yagba, Bunu, Owe, Ijumu, and Oworo people and yes they are Yoruba through the dialect continuum and the shared origin/mythology. As for a comparison with Ika/Ukwani/Ikwerre, I can only think of the Itsekiri. Although their dialect is similar to the Ilaje and Ikale dialects of Ondo state, they've maintained their distinction from Yoruba people. Some of their culture bear resemblance to Bini due to proximity/history similarly to Ika and others.
Yes Igala people are distinct, even though there are similarities between the two languages.

That's right. How mutually intelligible are Igala and Yoruba languages?

Probz:


That's right. How mutually intelligible are Igala and Yoruba languages?

I have spoken to a few Igala before. I don't know the exact percentage or if it varies by different Yoruba groups. I can understand about a third of an Igala speech if I listen carefully enough.

Educative

Probz:
Is that what I said?

No need to come at me like that. Im just curious. Whats the connection?

Ersan:


No need to come at me like that. Im just curious. Whats the connection?

Some Enugu communities border with Idoma and have a little Idoma and Igala mix up and dialect (Enu-ugwu-Ezike/Nsukka peeps) but that's as far as it goes. They're their own tribe.

Probz:
Some Enugu communities border with Idoma and have a little Idoma and Igala mix up and dialect (Enugwu Ezike/Nsukka peeps) but that's as far as it goes. They're their own tribe.

Good to know.

Probz:
Some Enugu communities border with Idoma and have a little Idoma and Igala mix up and dialect (Enugwu Ezike/Nsukka peeps) but that's as far as it goes. They're their own tribe.

Ok this is starting to seem educational. I have a question about the Ika, Anioma, Ikwerre, and ukwani people? Are they Igbo (honest question) and is there a level of mutual ineligible with Southeastern Igbo?

9jakool:

Ok this is starting to seem educational. I have a question about the Ika, Anioma, Ikwerre, and ukwani people? Are they Igbo (honest question) and is there a level of mutual ineligible with Southeastern Igbo?

The Anioma-Igbo relations have already been discussed to death on one of my threads. Check it out - https://www.nairaland.com/3539543/delta-rivers-igbos

Anioma's just a blanket political term for not just Ukwuanis and Ikas but also Enuanis (Asaba/Igbuzo/Ogwashu-Ukwu environs). The latter are indisputably Igbo and the dialect of Igbo they speak (Enuani) is just like general Onicha Igbo. Ikas and Ukwuanis speak Igboid languages but their culture and dialect's mixed with Bini and so they're still trying to figure out whether they're Igbo, Edo or just plain Delta. I wasn't sure myself until very recently but most people see them as Igbo. The Edo intonation they speak with is what makes their languages sound foreign.

Ikwerres are definitely Igbo and I know for sure that most Rivers Igbo dialects generally are just like the ones you'll hear anywhere in Imo state, only a-little heavier. In global terms (if you’re conversant-enough with the U.K.) general Imo lects would be akin to the Garston/Grassendale/Kensington slices of Liverpool, whereas Rivers-Igbo lects (inc. Ikwerre) would be more-like Hale, Tarbock Village, Hough Green and Netherley. One’s an idyllically-refined/correspondingly-coarse version of Scouse. The other’s got a more nichely-deep tone to it that naturally places it closer to the peripheral outliers but they’re still barking up approximately the same udala/agbalumo tree. The latter aren’t-quite Eastern wools but-then they kinda are.

Probz:


That's right. How mutually intelligible are Igala and Yoruba languages?

Igala is like an old Yoruba substrate speech that has received lots of infusions from "strange" (so to speak) languages from Jukun to Idoma to Igbo (In the southern extremities like Ibaji. With all these additions, it has somewhat morphed into something else.
some consonants seem to have also mutatedd in Igala and deviated from what seem their original form.

i.e R to L, J to BI, N to L
For example

Eje (Seven) = Ebie
Aja (Dog) = Abia
Ori (Head) = Oji
Ale {Night) = Ane
Enu, Arun (Mouth) = Elu/Alu
Akere (Frog) = Akele
Orun (Sun) = Olu
E.tc

Yoruba and Igala languages are like/akin to Igbo and Ekpeye (I hope I am right)
Short speeches are more understandable to speakers of both than longer discussions.

I.e

I am Hungry
Yoruba: Ebi n kpa mi
Igala: Ebi a kpa mi

Come and let's catch Fish:
Yoruba: Wa ka kpa Eja
Igala: Wa ka kpa Eja

Let us bring / pull ourselves together, and stay together.
Igala: Je kafola wa mola, kajo kpai ola wa
Yoruba: Je Kafara wa mora, kajo kpelu ara wa

God, Give/bring me a child
Olorun, Gb'omo fun mi
Ojo, Gb'oma du mi

Listen to me, I am eating three black Bananas (unripe) with yams tomorrow.
T'eti gbo mi, Maa je ogede dudu meta kpelu Isu ni ola
N'eti gbo mi, Naa je ogede dudu meta kpai utsu ni ona.

Give the watch onyour hand to me
Mu ago owo e fun mi
Mu ago owo e du mi



Overall, I can get the general "hint" of what an igala person is saying, but nothing concrete.

YourNemesis:


Igala is like an old Yoruba substrate speech that has received lots of infusions from "strange" (so to speak) languages from Jukun to Idoma to Igbo (In the southern extremities like Ibaji. With all these additions, it has somewhat morphed into something else.
some consonants seem to have also mutatedd in Igala and deviated from what seem their original form.

i.e R to L, J to BI, N to L
For example

Eje (Seven) = Ebie
Aja (Dog) = Abia
Ori (Head) = Oji
Ale {Night) = Ane
Enu, Arun (Mouth) = Elu/Alu
Akere (Frog) = Akele
Orun (Sun) = Olu
E.tc

Yoruba and Igala languages are like/akin to Igbo and Ekpeye (I hope I am right)
Short speeches are more understandable to speakers of both than longer discussions.

I.e

I am Hungry
Yoruba: Ebi n kpa mi
Igala: Ebi a kpa mi

Come and let's catch Fish:
Yoruba: Wa ka kpa Eja
Igala: Wa ka kpa Eja

Let us bring / pull ourselves together, and stay together.
Igala: Je kafola wa mola, kajo kpai ola wa
Yoruba: Je Kafara wa mora, kajo kpelu ara wa

God, Give/bring me a child
Olorun, Gb'omo fun mi
Ojo, Gb'oma du mi

Listen to me, I am eating three black Bananas (unripe) with yams tomorrow.
T'eti gbo mi, Maa je ogede dudu meta kpelu Isu ni ola
L'eti gbo mi, Naa je ogede dudu meta kpai utsu ni ona.

Give the watch onyour hand to me
Mu ago owo e fun mi
Mu ago owo e du mi



Overall, I can get the general "hint" of what an igala person is saying, but nothing concrete.

Ya even their accent too sounds Yoruboid. I don't speak nor understand Yoruba but I've heard Igala being spoken severally and it just sounded like Yoruba to me.

Wa ka kpa eja

Interestingly, the same statement in Igbo would be:

Bia ka anyi kpata azu (come let us catch fish, word for word).

bigfrancis21:


Ya even their accent too sounds Yoruboid. I don't speak nor understand Yoruba but I've heard Igala being spoken severally and it just sounded like Yoruba to me.

Wa ka kpa eja

Interestingly, the same statement in Igbo would be:

Bia ka anyi kpata azu (come let us catch fish, word for word).

Interesting.
If you were asked to discuss how all these Nigerian (Southern) languages originated without choosing an Igbo centric model (Because I know you ).... How would you say them all came about?
I think they all originated in Central Nigeria and bifurcated into three branches, Yoruboid, Edoid and Igboid.
Ibibio has links to Cameroon which is like the school next door, while Ijaw is that weird orphan child that no one in the classroom understands.

YourNemesis:


Interesting.
If you were asked to discuss how all these Nigerian (Southern) languages originated without choosing an Igbo centric model (Because I know you ).... How would you say them all came about?
I think they all originated in Central Nigeria and bifurcated into three branches, Yoruboid, Edoid and Igboid.
Ibibio has links to Cameroon which is like the school next door, while Ijaw is that weird orphan child that no one in the classroom understands.

Ya I agree with you except that Igboid diversion would probably be the earliest or first given the complexity of Igbo compared to the more easier Yoruba.

Igbo and Yoruba are definitely related. I also see the usage of 'o' in both languages as pronouns. For example, he/she has come in Igbo would be 'o biala', which would be similar in Yoruba too.

O na-abia - he/she is coming.

Please give us some examples of similar usages in Yoruba starting with the 'o' pronoun.

bigfrancis21:


Ya I agree with you except that Igboid diversion would probably be the earliest or first given the complexity of Igbo compared to the more easier Yoruba.

Igbo and Yoruba are definitely related. I also see the usage of 'o' in both languages as pronouns. For example, he/she has come in Igbo would be 'o biala', which would be similar in Yoruba too.

O na-abia - he/she is coming.

Please give us some examples of similar usages in Yoruba starting with the 'o' pronoun.

Yoruba:

O n bo - He/she/It is coming

bigfrancis21:


Ya I agree with you except that Igboid diversion would probably be the earliest or first given the complexity of Igbo compared to the more easier Yoruba.

Igbo and Yoruba are definitely related. I also see the usage of 'o' in both languages as pronouns. For example, he/she has come in Igbo would be 'o biala', which would be similar in Yoruba too.

O na-abia - he/she is coming.

Please give us some examples of similar usages in Yoruba starting with the 'o' pronoun.

Yeah a lot of words are related. I learned that the word for mud "potopoto" is the same in both languages with the soft p renunciation in Igbo.
Okuko is Igbo word for chicken and it's also very similar to Akuko in Yoruba, but in Yoruba it's rooster.

There is also this pattern that I have noticed in some of the verbs.
English Igbo Yoruba
To lay eggs yie ye
To cook sie se

I've noticed similarities between Ebira and Yoruba as well, some words are exactly the same. This is no surprise because Igbo, Ebira, Igala, Gbagyi, Edo, Nupe, Idoma and Yoruba are all part of the Volta-Niger branch so many of the features are similar.

I think your theory is very interesting about the complex phonology and the early divergence of Igbo. If I'm not mistaken, there are 34 letters (8 vowels, 27 consonants) in Igbo but standard Yoruba has 25 letters. Standard Yoruba is based off the Western dialects, especially that of Oyo, but Eastern and Central dialects of Yoruba tend to have more complex phonology and letters. They tend to preserve more of the proto-Yoruba or Proto-YEAI phonology/features. Central Yoruba and Eastern Yoruba dialects have 9 vowels and many letters that aren't found in Standard Yoruba such as gw and gh. On the contrary many western Yoruba dialects have the ch sound, which is absent in Standard Yoruba. Any Yoruba dialect could have more or less between 25 to 31 letters. Even though Yoruba is pretty much mutually intelligible, the disparity in complex phonology is one of the factor that affects mutual intelligibility in the continum. For example, an Akure person can understand an Ijesha dialect better than an Ondo dialect.

Anyway, it seems like the further East you go, the more complex the phonology gets which does play into that theory that the languages diverged in an area near the Niger-Benue confluence.

YourNemesis:


Igala is like an old Yoruba substrate speech that has received lots of infusions from "strange" (so to speak) languages from Jukun to Idoma to Igbo (In the southern extremities like Ibaji. With all these additions, it has somewhat morphed into something else.
some consonants seem to have also mutatedd in Igala and deviated from what seem their original form.

i.e R to L, J to BI, N to L
For example

Eje (Seven) = Ebie
Aja (Dog) = Abia
Ori (Head) = Oji
Ale {Night) = Ane
Enu, Arun (Mouth) = Elu/Alu
Akere (Frog) = Akele
Orun (Sun) = Olu
E.tc

Yoruba and Igala languages are like/akin to Igbo and Ekpeye (I hope I am right)
Short speeches are more understandable to speakers of both than longer discussions.

I.e

I am Hungry
Yoruba: Ebi n kpa mi
Igala: Ebi a kpa mi

Come and let's catch Fish:
Yoruba: Wa ka kpa Eja
Igala: Wa ka kpa Eja

Let us bring / pull ourselves together, and stay together.
Igala: Je kafola wa mola, kajo kpai ola wa
Yoruba: Je Kafara wa mora, kajo kpelu ara wa

God, Give/bring me a child
Olorun, Gb'omo fun mi
Ojo, Gb'oma du mi

Listen to me, I am eating three black Bananas (unripe) with yams tomorrow.
T'eti gbo mi, Maa je ogede dudu meta kpelu Isu ni ola
L'eti gbo mi, Naa je ogede dudu meta kpai utsu ni ona.

Give the watch onyour hand to me
Mu ago owo e fun mi
Mu ago owo e du mi



Overall, I can get the general "hint" of what an igala person is saying, but nothing concrete.

Interesting. I agree with your likening of Igala to Yoruba as Ekpeye is to Igbo. As an outsider I can only go by intonation but that alone sounds very Yoruba-like.

What do you think about words being shared in Igbo and Yoruba through Igala? Igala's sometimes seen as a bridging point between the two languages even though the language is Yoruboid.

Probz:
Kogi State probably stands out more than any other Nigerian state in its own unique way. I know it borders 9 states (10 including Abuja/F.C. territory), represents the main kind of ethnic groups in the whole of Nigeria (the northern/Hausa-inclined, Yoruba and Igbo + the likes of Idoma) and that the main three tribes are Igala, Okun (a Yoruba subgroup) and Igbira/Ebira. Anyone know if the case of Okun is similar to Ika/Ukwuani/Ikwerre (mere subgroups of an overarching tribe who have dissociated and don’t see themselves as Yoruba or Igbo) and what’s the case of Igala people speaking Yoruba in addition to their Yoruboid language, etc.?

Igala people speak Yoruba?? You have started with this your language-fishing expeditions, again. Last time, you were on a thread claiming that Ika people are Igbo or something. The argument about the Igbo, Igboiid and Edo origins of the Ika, has not yet been settled on that thread.

The dust you generated there, is still rising even as we speak. Now you have started with this your 'Igala vs Yoruba/Yoruboid languages' theory...may God deliver you from causing confusion.

I am waiting for the Igala indigenes to enter this thread. It is interesting to see that it is an Igbo person that has decided that Igala sounds Yoruba or Yoruboid. Hehehe....!!

YourNemesis:


Yoruba:

O n bo - He/she/It is coming

Na correct To think that both groups fight on nairaland everyday when there are similarities between both.

It's interesting to find that Yoruba has two words for 'come', 'bo' and 'wa' am I correct? How are both words used in sentences?

Igbo has just one 'bia' regardless of speech type.

laudate:
I am waiting for the Igala indigenes to enter this thread. It is interesting to see that it is an Igbo person that has decided that Igala sounds Yoruba or Yoruboid. Hehehe....!!

Ocho okwu...only enters a thread to incite troubles.

Yes, Igala definitely sounds Yoruboid when spoken....now do your worst.

9jakool:

Yeah a lot of words are related. I learned that the word for mud "potopoto" is the same in both languages with the soft p renunciation in Igbo.
Okuko is Igbo word for chicken and it's also very similar to Akuko in Yoruba, but in Yoruba it's rooster.

There is also this pattern that I have noticed in some of the verbs.
English Igbo Yoruba
To lay eggs yie ye
To cook sie se

I've noticed similarities between Ebira and Yoruba as well, some words are exactly the same. This is no surprise because Igbo, Ebira, Igala, Gbagyi, Edo, Nupe, Idoma and Yoruba are all part of the Volta-Niger branch so many of the features are similar.

I think your theory is very interesting about the complex phonology and the early divergence of Igbo. If I'm not mistaken, there are 34 letters (8 vowels, 27 consonants) in Igbo but standard Yoruba has 25 letters. Standard Yoruba is based off the Western dialects, especially that of Oyo, but Eastern and Central dialects of Yoruba tend to have more complex phonology and letters. They tend to preserve more of the proto-Yoruba or Proto-YEAI phonology/features. Central Yoruba and Eastern Yoruba dialects have 9 vowels and many letters that aren't found in Standard Yoruba such as gw and gh. On the contrary many western Yoruba dialects have the ch sound, which is absent in Standard Yoruba. Any Yoruba dialect could have more or less between 25 to 31 letters. Even though Yoruba is pretty much mutually intelligible, the disparity in complex phonology is one of the factor that affects mutual intelligibility in the continum. For example, an Akure person can understand an Ijesha dialect better than an Ondo dialect.

Anyway, it seems like the further East you go, the more complex the phonology gets which does play into that theory that the languages diverged in an area near the Niger-Benue confluence.

I've always concurred with this. This is an area that further linguistic studies need to be performed on. Standard Igbo has 36 letters of the alphabet and this is only for 'light' dialects like Onitsha, Enuani etc. Complex Igbo dialects like Ngwa, Ikwerre, Abiriba etc. have way more letters in their speech form, for example 'wh' (owho/ofo), 'nh' (inhe/ife) etc.) that could be up to 40 or 45 as the case may be.

bigfrancis21:


Na correct To think that both groups fight on nairaland everyday when there are similarities between both.

It's interesting to find that Yoruba has two words for 'come', 'bo' and 'wa' am I correct? How are both words used in sentences?

Igbo has just one 'bia' regardless of speech type.

Wa is Present: (Come)
Come here (Wa ni ibi)

Bo is present continuous: (Coming)
I am coming (Mo n bo)

bigfrancis21:
Ocho okwu...only enters a thread to incite troubles.

Yes, Igala definitely sounds Yoruboid when spoken....now do your worst.

Which worst? Did anyone say that I am like you? You guys are the ones that spark fire and brimstone over ethnic issues. It is only trouble makers like you, that like to decide what ethnicity a person should bear, and also go out of their way to determine what language sounds like the next, even when they cannot speak the languages in question.

Like I said, I am waiting for the Igala indigenes to come in here. Stop deciding for them, whether their language sounds Yoruba, Yoruboid or whatever.

laudate:


Which worst? Did anyone say that I am like you? You guys are the ones that spark fire and brimstone over ethnic issues. It is only trouble makers like you, that like to decide what ethnicity a person should bear, and also go out of their way to determine what language sounds like the next, even when they cannot speak the languages in question.

Like I said, I am waiting for the Igala indigenes to come in here. Stop deciding for them, whether their language sounds Yoruba, Yoruboid or whatever.

Exactly, you are doing the same thing I mentioned earlier by inciting unnecessary troubles here. Sound like something is NOT the same as TO BE something. That Igala sounds like Yoruba does NOT mean it IS Yoruba. Of course, it is common knowledge that Igalas do not want to be called Yorubas and nobody is saying nor implying that here. It is often Yorubas that I see trying to claim Igalas. Therefore sounding like Yoruba does not mean it is Yoruba. Sometimes I wonder the level of English apprehension of many of our so-called graduates.

YourNemesis:


Wa is Present: (Come)
Come here (Wa ni ibi)

Bo is present continuous: (Coming)
I am coming (Mo n bo)

Ok, in Igbo it is just one word regardless.

Come here (Wa ni ibi) Yoruba

Come here (Bia ebe a) Igbo
(Bia n'ebe a) Igbo