refiner:

In Romans 9 vs 16...so then it is not of him that willeth,nor of him that runneth,but of God that sheweth mercy.

refiner:

That means God is selective of whom to show mercy to,why that?...are we not all his creatures?

refiner:

..we can see this in the case of jacob and esau...he showed mercy to jacob unlike esau...

refiner:

Peter and judas iscariot...peter was showed mercy but judas was doomed to die...

refiner:

Saul and david....

refiner:

And lots of biblical cases...

Not everyone will receive the mercy of God...some are doomed to die no matter how many years spent on the earth...God spares only those he wish to and destroy others...

refiner:

Little wonders why someone will commit a particular sin, will go scot free but someone else that commit that same sin might die.....

refiner:

So doesnt it mean that God is a partial God?...state your opinion without insults...

An2elect2:
Yes God is not partial or unjust but this is a ridiculous explanation.

Even before opening the thread I knew it would be a mess

adepeter26:
It's been a while I read senseless garbage like this on this section.

E b like say ROMANCELANDERS wan carry Dem mumu-ness come Religion Section

Tallesty1:
I was as confused as you're when I first encountered this verse but there's something that helps me to understand scriptures as complicated as this one and that is trying to figure out the speakers audience and whether the verse should be taken literally or not.

The scripture quoted by Paul was God's speech to Moses after granting him an unusual request. It is has nothing to do with our salvation and reward as true Christians.

I group people who ask this question into two categories.

First category are people with sense of entitlement complex. People who think God owe them something but truth is, he owe nothing that he hasn't given.

Second group are people who want to feel good in sin. They want to justify their sinful life by saying that God has chosen those he likes and the rest are doomed to die no matter what they do.

That is a lie.

First he gave us freedom to chose from good and evil and majority chose evil, He then sent a son to redeem us all if we have faith in him.

God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son , much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

We are all his children and that is why he encourages us to come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

There's no selection or discrimination against anybody here.

Just come...... but our sins and self condemnation makes unconfident.

He didn't show mercy to Jacob and Esau wasn't hated as you make it seem.

Scripture was talking about being elected to handle a particular task when the above was mentioned.

Jacob was elected to be the father of Israel, Esau was not. This does not mean that God hates Esau. Esau later became a great man that God used to teach Jacob an important lesson but that's not part of this post.

So the case of Esau and Jacob was a case of being chosen for a certain purpose. Jesus selected Peter from the twelve apostles as the one he will give the keys to his temple, this doesn't mean that the others were hated.

Judas was a thief first before becoming a traitor and he never asked for forgiveness rather he chose to self terminate unlike Peter who wept uncontrollably.
He made himself available for Satan to use and it's just right that he destroyed his body for his spirit to be safe. 1 Corinthians 5:5

You don't know how serious Saul's offenses were.

Let me brief you.

Israel's king was not to be considered divine. In the law of Moses, God carefully distinguished the priesthood from the kingship and gave future kings careful instructions that put them under the law.

So it was vital that Israelite kings not usurp any priestly or divine prerogatives but Saul did just that while campaigning against the Philistines.

Scripture says that Saul assumed the prerogatives of a priest by offering sacrifices by himself when Samuel didn’t arrive as soon as expected.

That's one.


Instead of destroying the Almakites as he was instructed, he spared the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs everything that was good. He only ordered the destruction of what he thought was undesirable and worthless. He spared King Agag because in this time captured kings were a prized trophy of war. By conducting this raid as if it were ordinary warfare that he was directing, Saul once again usurped a divine prerogative and misrepresented the character of divine judgment.

If allowed to continue being king, he will changed the Israelites system of kingship.

This is a very ridiculous assertion.

Truly not everyone will be elected to lead or be used by God for special purpose but we all have his mercy through Christ Jesus.

Even Job despite his troubles acknowledged in Job 34:19 that
God is not partial to princes
and does not favor the rich over the poor,
for they are all the work of His hands.

God loves everyone of us because every human being is created in His image John 3:16. Those he shows mercy or chooses are worthy of the assignment.

Let's assume that he decides to show you mercy now(ie chose you for a particular mission) Will you be able to handle the mantle of responsibility that he will place on your shoulders?

Jesus was the chosen one yet he died a terrible death, he suffered to an extent that he wished the cup will be taken away from him.

Be he was chosen because he's worthy. Likewise the apostles and every other person he showed mercy.

Take Mary for another example, God showed him mercy so he was chosen to be the mother of the Messiah. He had to flee and go exile because the king wanted to kill Jesus. last last, a sword pierced her soul/ even though he was shown mercy.

These are the ones I look on with favor says the Lord : those who are humble and contrite in spirit, and who tremble at my word. God wants to show us all His favor, but in His sovereign knowledge, He chooses some for special assignment and blessing.


For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
Nobody goes Scot free after committing a sin.

The Bible is clear on this.

The death in this context isn't physical death but spiritual death. The person can be strong and healthy but he's gone spiritually.

That two people commit the same sin and and on lives while one dies doesn't mean that God hates the one who's dead.

He is just unlucky.

“For a certainty,” said Peter, “I perceive that God is not partial.”

He isn't partial. we will all be judged in the end and be rewarded according to our works .

Peter also said that

In every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.

Picture this scenario, a man employed labourers to work in his farm. The agreement is that he will pay them 20k by the end of the day.

But while inspecting their work, he took a bite from an apple and gave the rest to one of the workers.

Was he being partial by not giving to others? Nope, it was his apple and their agreement was to be rewarded with money not apple. It is also possible that he that received the apple was doing something better than others or the man saw that he was weak, maybe hungry too and needed an apple.

Just before closing time, the man decides to leave and appoints one of the labourers to inspect work instead. This means that he will stop working but in the end he will still receive the agreed amount.

Is the man partial?

God is not limited in His favor. He does not rank us in order of importance, nor is His favor something we must compete with one another to earn. Every child of God who comes to Him through faith in Jesus Christ has the favor of God.

cc lalasticlala

hahn:


I will go with your recommendation and save myself the mental stress then

Well I have replied him accordingly

An2elect2:
And Paul's audience needed it for what? Paul was speaking to people under the new covenant (who have been saved by God's grace through faith) doesn't that suggest there is a relationship with the scripture quoted and the status of the people he was addressing?

Why reference something that has no relevance at the present time?

Something as simple as God being sovereign should not be taken literally? o yeah, but we should complicate it so people can continue in false gospels!

@bold What do you mean by God owing nothing he hasnt given? Are you saying God owed men and was free from debt when he started given?

You are right about the groups of people that ask these questions but there is another group which you are failing to acknowledge;

~Lovers of truth: It is the love for Christ and a heart desire to seek only God's glory that can push someone to ask questions like this. In short questions like these should not be discouraged because the cause us to search the scriptures for truth-which is a good thing!


Tallesty can you provide scripture that back up this claim of yours because it is very costly. No where in the bible was it said that "the majority choose evil" instead the Bible categorically states that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. And there is none that seeks after God, not even one!

True that God sent his son to redeem us but this condition for redemption is not the work of man but the work of God. It is God's work alone to quicken us who are dead in trespasses and sins. Eph2:1,2 Not you and him but him alone. Vs 8 says by grace through faith are we saved, and not of yourselves but it is a gift. The faith to believe and salvation as a whole were referred to as gifts.

Faith (saving faith)is a good work or response that cannot emanate from sinful men because none can do good except God instead it is given by God and comes by hearing the word. And when it is given to a man. he automatically responds and becomes saved. He doesn't choose to respond, the grace and power that comes with salvation is enough to change his will.

In the day of God's power men will be made willing.

Amen to this. @colored. Take note. WE WERE RECONCILED TO GOD BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON Did you see that? Christ death was what reconciled us to God not our choice. So when were we reconciled back to God? some 2 thousand years ago!! That was when our salvation was secured!!!! That was when God put an end to the judgement of sin for all those Christ died for. God is not inputting sin into those whom Christ died, He is in time, inputting the righteousness of Jesus into us. If God should judge us for sin which Christ has paid for with His blood, He would be unjust!
This is for those who are born again. And have the spirit of Christ in them. They can now approach the throne of grace boldly because the high priest has taken that away which stood on the way(sin and it's curse) for ever!

O yes there is. God is the one that chooses not men

This is how you speak when you don't rightly divide the word, you just read your opinion into scripture. Whether you want to believe it or not, many people were chosen unto salvation. Nothing can take God by surprise. Everything that is is because He wills them

The Bible said Judas is a son of perdition. Peter when calling for his replacement said he had gone to his place.
Judas was predestined to betray Christ. He was never saved to start with.

On the other hand, Peter was not better than Judas in anyway. If God had dealt with Peter the way he did Judas, he would be in hell too But God's mercy prevailed for Peter.


Does this story nullify God's sovereignty?


" I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I WILL.. that does not sound like everyone's birthright.


True but you must agree with the Bible that God has men in all races, classes, sects. And his sheep are scattered abroad?

I pray I open a thread about John 3:16 soon God helping me so you can see how cherry picking scripture can only lead to confusion and "contradictions" John 3:16 isn't talking about every single being at all but the elect of God.

Remember scripture must reconcile with scripture.


God's sovereign choice is not limited to specific assignments but they are centred on reconciling men back to Himself.

God's choice is not dependent on man's worthiness but on His determinate counsel. God's choice were made before the foundation of the world and if they are based on who deserves to be chosen or not that means we existed before God. But that's a lie.


Sorry?


So where does the humble and contrite spirit come from? Our wicked hearts? And who/what is our hope of glory? Christ in us or our obedience?

Luck? Is this world being run by God or fate? Are you saying somethings are out of God's control and are caused by some force somewhere?

@colored, rewarded with what?

Meanwhile, Peter was talking about God not discriminating people based on nationality, race or class. But the one that does righteousness is acceptable to Him. Question is who are those that do this righteousness?

@bold remember no one can come except he is drawn by the Father.

Tallesty1:
Giving you a detailed response will lead us into a long debate because we are going to disagree on a lot of things and it will void the purpose of this thread.

I had to leave out a lot of things while writing the op to make it short and readable. About Judas and Jesus, Judas was chosen to betray Jesus but he had to make things right he realized his mistakes but he didn't(according to our Bible) I will leave it there because there is much more to the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ than we have been taught. There are great mysteries here, it has many connections with Levitical Laws and to understand it, we must look at it from a totally new point of view.

I agree too to some of the things you've written and will like you to call me out on a dead thread or chat box somewhere so that we can debate extensively on the issue.

Now back to what's at hand, you and I agree that God is not partial or unjust, can you present a better response to refiner?

Good

God is not partial, He is merciful and we should not expect Him to be like Hitler.
But I may be so wrong to say His favour tend to tilt toward those who follow His part,
==Edit==
yet there are who were just lucky to get the favour. There those who were specially called/favour, while others were not. Since he is God; Greater than all, we human just have to agreed to his terms.

The Scripture cannot be broken as regards to God's mercy
Isa 1:18-19
18. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Coming back

refiner:

In Romans 9 vs 16...so then it is not of him that willeth,nor of him that runneth,but of God that sheweth mercy.