Rossikk:


Can you point us to this ''index'' you are referring to? I've never heard of it.

Any link?

Many thanks in anticipation.

Infrastructural Development Index

AshiwajuFoward:


Some of you guys don't know how to put things in their proper context. Even in spite of the challenges Nigeria is facing, there's no way in hell Rwanda can be considered as more developed than Nigeria. Absolutely no way.

Nigeria may be underachieving, no doubt, but relatively speaking, asides S.A and a handful of countries in Northern Africa, I dare say that no other sub-Saharan country is as developed as Nigeria. #Fact. Nairobi, Kenya and Eastern Africa's most developed city) is great (I've been there more than once) but it's the only city in the entire country worth mentioning -- Calabar and Uyo will give Mombasa a run for its money any time.

In West Africa Nigeria is the undisputed numero uno in terms of infrastructure (asides our epileptic power issues), with Abidjan coming second considering the former capital's impressive infrastructure (even Ghana doesn't have a single city that can match Abidjan in the area of infrastructure).

Angola's Luanda isn't bad but again it's the only city in that entire country worth mentioning. The rest are not even in contention -- you need to visit some African countries to get a proper perspective, I mean some barely have tarred roads. In other words, these sub-Saharan cities I mentioned are all pretty much '1-city states' while Nigeria has at least 3 cities that can outmatch their best city/state capitals.

Even Benin Republic has steady electricity compared to Naija yet that isn't enough justification to claim it's 'more developed' than Nigeria now is it? It's ok to lament about Nigeria's problems (most citizens of most countries do about their respective countries) but let's do so within reasonable limits please.

What context? What did I point out there that was not a fact. The problem with many Nigerians is they're deluded as to how backward this country really is. Someone like you who has travelled out should have an idea. Nigeria has one of the worst power crisis in Africa. That's a fact. Most of the country has no access to municipal water services and have to dig wells, boreholes, pay tankers, or abokis to sling water to their houses. That's a fact. 99% of Nigeria has no centralized sewage and water treatment facilities and septic tanks, open gutters etc are the waste disposal method. That's a fact. Nigeria has no metro rail system and other transport options (danfo, okada etc) are chaotic and unbefitting of big cities. That's a fact. Nigeria cities have some of the most chaotic urban planning in the world with individuals building anyhow they like with little regulation. Nigeria's cities and waterways are filthy and polluted. These are all facts. I don't know why many of you are always in denial. Solutions to problems start from acknowledging problems. Defending utter mediocrity leads us nowhere.

Nigeria is a big country. Being big because the British were stupid enough to amalgamate this ill-fated union is not an achievement. Being big is not development.

Rossikk:
NIGERIA IS RANKED THE 3RD MOST TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED NATION IN AFRICA AFTER SOUH AFRICA AND EGYPT.

http://www.africaranking.com/most-technologically-advanced-countries-in-africa/10/

And so?
Are we talking about infrastructural development or technology?
With your huge population are u not supposed to be even first?
You are not even ashamed.
Ghana with its small population is still ranked 5th most technology advanced country in Africa( Ghana deserves the 3rd position though )

O0XYGEN:

And so?
Are we talking about infrastructural development or technology?
With your huge population are u not supposed to be even first?
You are not even ashamed.

China and India are more populated than the US, so please tell us, are both countries technologically advanced than the US?


You people come up with the most absurd and unintelligent logic ever.

Rossikk:
NIGERIA IS RANKED THE 3RD MOST TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED NATION IN AFRICA AFTER SOUH AFRICA AND EGYPT.

http://www.africaranking.com/most-technologically-advanced-countries-in-africa/10/

That guy's ranking is not based on any reliable, transparent metrics. He basically just listed the top economies on the continent. How do you measure the most technologically advanced nations? Are the involved metrics corrected for population?

deomelo:



China and India are more populated than the US, so please tell us, are both countries technologically advanced than the US?


You people come up with the most absurd and unintelligent logic ever.

We are talking about Africa Dickhead.

O0XYGEN:

We are talking about Africa Dickhead.

You obviously gave yourself that name after looking in the mirror.

Silly ipob joker picking and choosing after the fact.

O0XYGEN:

And so?
Are we talking about infrastructural development or technology?
With your huge population are u not supposed to be even first?
You are not even ashamed.

My friend relax yourself. Look, whenever you take a developing nation like Nigeria with a huge population of almost 200 million people, you will always have smaller nations that will post higher living standards.

By virtue of the sheer population and size of Nigeria. It's like India (population 1.3 billion) in Asia. In Asia you have a country like Macau (population: under 1 million) where GDP per capita (PPP calculation) is an incredible $192,000 per annum. While India's is $6,000 per annum.

Can you compare Macau to India in terms of industrial output, or any other sort of output or production? Nope.

India has many more poor people, bad roads, bad schools, poor hospitals, slums, than Macau. Every road in Macau is tarred and paved, and lined with flowers. Unlike India, where there are so many dirt roads and slums!

People of Macau can claim their country is ''better than India''.

Or ''more developed'' than India.

But we all know they ain't shiit compared to India.

Just like Rwanda or Gabon or Ghana ain't shiit compared to Nigeria.

Singapore's GDP per capita is $82,000. Even Iraq is on $16,000, with all their war and terrorism! Yet India sits at $6,000 per annum. And they are virtually a global economic superpower. That $6,000 is about the same as Nigeria's (See link below). Reason? Huge populations.

We need to stop pretending that providing food, education, power, infrastructure and amenities for 200 million people or 1 billion people is the same as doing so for 5 or 10 million sized countries.

Or that when the latter has managed to do so to some degree, it then makes them ''better'' than the former. It's a lot more complicated than that.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Obi1kenobi:


That guy's ranking is not based on any reliable, transparent metrics. He basically just listed the top economies on the continent. How do you measure the most technologically advanced nations? Are the involved metrics corrected for population?

Your other post with broad generalizations and unsubstantiated claims about Nigeria have metrics?

deomelo:



Your other post with broad generalizations and unsubstantiated claims about Nigeria have metrics?

They're only "unsubstantiated" if you don't live in Nigeria, or if you're ignorant, or if you're lying and being deliberately obtuse. If you have any point to dispute from there, you can give it a try.

Obi1kenobi:


They're only "unsubstantiated" if you don't live in Nigeria, or if you're ignorant, or if you're lying and being deliberately obtuse. If you have any point to dispute from there, you can give it a try.

The fact that I live in Nigeria doesn't mean you or I'm allowed to make ignorant, wild and unsubstantiated claims.

Rossikk:


My friend relax yourself. Look, whenever you take a developing nation like Nigeria with a huge population of almost 200 million people, you will always have smaller nations that will post higher living standards.

By virtue of the sheer population and size of Nigeria. It's like India in Asia. In Asia you have a country like Macau, where GDP per capita (PPP calculation) is an incredible $192,000 per annum. While India's is $6,000 per annum. In that same Asia.

Can you compare Macau to India in terms of industrial output, or any other sort of output or production? Nope.

India has many more poor people, bad roads, bad schools, poor hospitals, slums, than Macau.

People of Macau can claim they are ''better than India''.

But we all know they ain't shiit compared to India.

Just like Rwanda or Gabon or Ghana ain't shiit compared to Nigeria.

Singapore's is $82,000. Even Iraq is on $16,000, with all their war and terrorism! Yet India sits at $6,000 per annum. And they are virtually a global economic superpower. That $6,000 is about the same as Nigeria's (See link below). Reason? Huge populations.

We need to stop pretending that providing food, education, power, infrastructure and amenities for 200 million people or 1 billion people is the same as doing so for 5 or 10 million sized countries.

Or that when the latter has managed to do so to some degree, it then makes them ''better'' than the former. It's a lot more complicated than that.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

China has done a fantastic job dragging hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in recent decades and greatly expanded its middle class (Nigeria's poverty prevalence has actually increased in that time), so I don't buy that argument. The likes of Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia etc have also been great success stories and are large nations. Germany, France and the UK are 3 of the most populated countries in Europe and they do just as well (or at least, almost as well) as small countries like Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, Switzerland etc.
I'm not sure what you mean by Macau "ain't shiit" compared to India. I'm sure no one from Macau would ever wish they were Indian.

Nigeria makes few improvements. Most of the recorded growth is accounted for by an elite that keep getting richer and an exploding population. Public infrastructure keeps decaying, quality of education is worse than my parents' time etc. Yes, it's more difficult catering to 200 million people, but that is hardly the reason for Nigeria's failures. It would also help if we stopped breeding like rats and doubling our population every 20 years. Our human development indices would always rank among the bottom when we breed like that.

deomelo:



The fact that I live in Nigeria doesn't mean you or I'm allowed to make ignorant, wild and unsubstantiated claims.

You haven't refuted any claims though. You're just rambling rather aimlessly. What did you expect me to do? Provide stats about how many people have central sewage? Do you have it in your area? If you have nothing credible to post, stop wasting my time.

Obi1kenobi:


You haven't refuted any claims though. You're just rambling rather aimlessly. What did you expect me to do? Provide stats about how many people have central sewage? Do you have it in your area? If you have nothing credible to post, stop wasting my time.

Why waste time refuting unsubstantiated babbles, substantiate it and watch me refute every word.

If you are going to use your flawed brush to generalize, do it with a little sense, logic and facts.

Obi1kenobi:


China has done a fantastic job dragging hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in recent decades and greatly expanded its middle class (Nigeria's poverty prevalence has actually increased in that time), so I don't buy that argument. The likes of Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia etc have also been great success stories and are large nations. Germany, France and the UK are 3 of the most populated countries in Europe and they do just as well (or at least, almost as well) as small countries like Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, Switzerland etc.
I'm not sure what you mean by Macau "ain't shiit" compared to India. I'm sure no one from Macau would ever wish they were Indian.

Nigeria makes few improvements. Most of the recorded growth is accounted for by an elite that keep getting richer and an exploding population. Public infrastructure keeps decaying, quality of education is worse than my parents' time etc. Yes, it's more difficult catering to 200 million people, but that is hardly the reason for Nigeria's failures. It would also help if we stopped breeding like rats and doubling our population every 20 years. Our human development indices would always rank among the bottom when we breed like that.

China EXEMPLIFIES exactly what I am saying, which is that developing countries with huge populations have a harder time providing for all their citizens, than smaller sized developing nations. (Kindly leave the likes of Germany and Switzerland out of this debate pls).

Look at China. The world's biggest economy bar none. A manufacturing and industrial giant. But guess what? Their GDP per capita is only $15,000. Just over twice that of Nigeria's, and less than the GDPs of Gabon, Iraq, Botswana, Trinidad, Equatorial Guinea, and Seychelles!

The reason? POPULATION.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

This is not to say that large populations can't progress. It just takes a bit longer to get everyone there...

deomelo:



Why waste time refuting unsubstantiated babbles, substantiate it and watch me refute every word.

If you are going to use your flawed brush to generalize, do it with a little sense, logic and facts.

You're beating around the bush cause you know you're empty of substance. That's why we're playing this moronic game. What exactly have I generalized? What is absent of "sense, logic and facts"? What do you want me to substantiate?

Obi1kenobi:


What context? What did I point out there that was not a fact. The problem with many Nigerians is they're deluded as to how backward this country really is. Someone like you who has travelled out should have an idea. Nigeria has one of the worst power crisis in Africa. That's a fact. Most of the country has no access to municipal water services and have to dig wells, boreholes, pay tankers, or abokis to sling water to their houses. That's a fact. 99% of Nigeria has no centralized sewage and water treatment facilities and septic tanks, open gutters etc are the waste disposal method. That's a fact. Nigeria has no metro rail system and other transport options (danfo, okada etc) are chaotic and unbefitting of big cities. That's a fact. Nigeria cities have some of the most chaotic urban planning in the world with individuals building anyhow they like with little regulation. Nigeria's cities and waterways are filthy and polluted. These are all facts. I don't know why many of you are always in denial. Solutions to problems start from acknowledging problems. Defending utter mediocrity leads us nowhere.

Nigeria is a big country. Being big because the British were stupid enough to amalgamate this ill-fated union is not an achievement. Being big is not development.

OK, let's try and stay within the context of the subject matter of this thread, which is whether Rwanda is more 'developed' than Nigeria, can we? A lot of folks are fond of the bad habit of making invalid comparisons between Nigeria and other African states based on wild assumptions replete with half-truths and not rooted in facts.

In the context of this discussion about Rwanda, I dare say that whatever growth or semblance of progress being witnessed in that country is unsustainable in the long-run simply because it's artificial and largely fueled by heavy foreign aid. Similar to the way the current Nigerian administration's much touted anti-corruption drive draws its vigour and life from the personality of Buhari, so does the 'development' being witnessed in Rwanda owe much/ is dependent on an individual (as opposed to sustainable institutions) in the person of Kagame. Nigeria isn't the only country grappling with its own unique set of challenges.

In Rwanda, Kagame is an unapologetic dictator and autocratic leader whose policies will sooner or later unravel coz he's not building sustainable institutions that would outlive him in a society that is still divided along ethnic lines (even though his regime is trying hard to forcefully blur those lines). He has changed the constitution to enable himself possibly remain in office till 2034. Mind you he's from the minority Tutsi tribe which was at the receiving end of the '94 genocide. The majority Hutus are already feeling shortchanged and are definitely against his anti-democratic posturing, and expectedly this is setting the stage for a possible repeat of the ethnic conflict that culminated in the '94 genocide.

Even investors in the country remark about and cite its size and population as limitations to its attractiveness as a market.

Those of you hyping Rwanda here on this thread are either ignorant of these challenges (amongst others) facing that country or you just deliberately chose to disingenuously overlook them while at the same time magnifying Nigeria's, as though the problem of leadership (which is the real culprit and source of this country's problems) is peculiar to Nigeria alone.

Rossikk:


China EXEMPLIFIES exactly what I am saying, which is that developing countries with huge populations have a harder time providing for all their citizens, than smaller sized developing nations. (Kindly leave the likes of Germany and Switzerland out of this debate pls).

Look at China. The world's biggest economy bar none. A manufacturing and industrial giant. But guess what? Their GDP per capita is only $15,000. Just over twice that of Nigeria's, and less than the GDPs of Gabon, Iraq, Botswana, Trinidad, Equatorial Guinea, and Seychelles!

The reason? POPULATION.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

This is not to say that large populations can't progress. It just takes a bit longer to get everyone there...

We are not talking about the same thing. Yes, larger populations may be more difficult to cater to, but my point was that China which is several times larger than Nigeria in population has made massive strides in human development, infrastructure, industrial output, innovation etc. Nigeria hasn't even started. We've been talking about economic diversification for decades, and here we are still talking about it today while industries keep shutting down. India is generating 310,000 MW of power even as we struggle to maintain an average of 3000+ MW capacity (which was still the average in the bleeping 90's when I was in primary school). That is not a problem of population. It's just a problem of incompetence and corruption. My point was that our population is not the impediment to progress.

Obi1kenobi:


We are not talking about the same thing. Yes, larger populations may be more difficult to cater to, but my point was that China which is several times larger than Nigeria in population has made massive strides in human development, infrastructure, industrial output, innovation etc. Nigeria hasn't even started.

WRONG. We HAVE started. You just choose to turn a blind eye to every positive, and focus solely on drawbacks. For instance, I'm old enough to remember when we had just one expressway in the whole of Nigeria. Today, they are like hundreds!

Before Jonathan, all Nigerian airports were an embarrassment to behold. Today, you can actually feel proud to walk into a Nigerian airport, be it Enugu, Kano, Kaduna or Benin. Major rebuilding and renovation was done on 12 airports nationwide by the Jonathan administration.

The Abuja-Kaduna rail line commissioned by Jonathan, is a proud symbol of what is to come, in terms of rail facilities going forward.

Lagos is set to launch a modern rail system.

In the 1980s we had only about 20 something universities. Today we have nearly 300. Higher education is expanding.

So there is capacity building going on across the country. It's not as fast as we'd all like, but we are not standing still.

We've been talking about economic diversification for decades, and here we are still talking about it today while industries keep shutting down.

There HAS been progress in diversification of the economy. The GDP is only 15% oil and gas related.

India is generating 310,000 MW of power even as we struggle to maintain an average of 3000+ MW capacity (which was still the average in the bleeping 90's when I was in primary school). That is not a problem of population. It's just a problem of incompetence and corruption. My point was that our population is not the impediment to progress.

You cannot pick one thing like electricity and say ''See? We have made no progress there, therefore there's been no progress whatsoever''.

That's intellectual dishonesty.

Abagworo:
Rwanda is not in any way comparable to Nigeria. How many cities are in the poor backward country? Nigeria has well over 200 cities with population exceeding 100,000. One can compare Rwanda with individual States and not even Lagos.

Lol. Nigeria has 200 cities indeed.

Obi1kenobi:


You're beating around the bush cause you know you're empty of substance. That's why we're playing this moronic game. What exactly have I generalized? What is absent of "sense, logic and facts"? What do you want me to substantiate?

You quoted percentage%, but you can not substantiate your percentage claim with facts or documented data from any legitimate entity.

Again, if you are going to throw out generalizations and quote this and that percentage, make sure you produce facts per how you arrived at your percentage and if you yourself conducted the survey and you arrived @ your silly 99%, common decency dictates that you show us your data and methodologies.

You see, people like you run up and down NL spewing rubbish and made up nonsense for ignorant people like you and your co Igbos to swallow, but you default to tantrums when called out.


Back up your claim with facts of keep quiet and stop being hypocritical.

Maybe not yet, but soon if things continue the way they are ....

The new culture of Rwanda does not give room for distractions like you have in Nigeria

(They don't have the luxury of militants disruption of key economic resources

Or Terrorism

Or Religious delusion mentality spreading gospels of unproductive miracles, replacement of the worship of creator through prayers with the worship of imaginary enemies with curses .... )

My first hand impression of Rwanda includes

- a country that has chosen to embrace orderliness & discipline

- Environmental friendly & conscious
( no polythene bags are allowed right from the airport
( bikes are allowed everywhere but helmets are embraced & enforced
( known as land of a thousand hills, now the hills are continually being tamed with terraced landscapes that supports agriculture
- Nomadic grazing, which used to be a way of life has been banned
- Anticorruption is not a solo fight by Govt, but also embraced by the people, so corruption has far less opportunity or courage to fight back

By the way on a different level I observed that Nigeria is well represented there
- Nollywood through Pirated films
- Banking through about 3 Nigerian Banks operating there
- We have a recognisable presence in spare parts trading
- Music, our hip hop music blare through their radios & concerts feature Nigerian acts

Much more later

I dunno why most pple on this nairaland think that everything is about them. They think every developmental post is a dick measuring contest.

Rwanda has very limited resources yet they've achieved so much with it..that's the point.

I actually caught wind of this said country during Obiana's "3 years in office speech" where he said Kigali was his inspiration.

He further stated how similar Kigali is to anambra state; war torn, hilly, erosion prone, limited resources, landlocked etc. he said he felt embarrassed after going to the city..and realized anambra has a long way to go. His idea of public,private partnership was born out of this said escapade.

Though Kigali earns less than anambra, what they have achieved is worthy of accolades

Obi1kenobi:


Oga, I very much doubt those your stats. Considering Nigeria's GDP per capita is almost 4 times Rwanda's, it's impossible that we have double their poverty rate. I never tire of pointing out how hopeless this country is, but let's not start spinning fantasies about other countries.

http://www.indexmundi.com/rwanda/population_below_poverty_line.html

[url] http://www.indexmundi.com/nigeria/population_below_poverty_line.html[/url]

The supposed Nigerian wealth is not spread around.

Sweetguy25:

Lol. Nigeria has 200 cities indeed.

More like glorified slums actually.

SalamRushdie:


Typical Nigerian excuse for mediocrity

you better go back to secondary school,to learn how to read and understand what you read

deomelo:



You quoted percentage%, but you can not substantiate your percentage claim with facts or documented data from any legitimate entity.

Again, if you are going to throw out generalizations and quote this and that percentage, make sure you produce facts per how you arrived at your percentage and if you yourself conducted the survey and you arrived @ your silly 99%, common decency dictates that you show us your data and methodologies.

You see, people like you run up and down NL spewing rubbish and made up nonsense for ignorant people like you and your co Igbos to swallow, but you default to tantrums when called out.


Back up your claim with facts of keep quiet and stop being hypocritical.

I should have known an immature cretin that keeps waffling irrelevant crap about "IPOB" would be a waste of my time. I mentioned a percentage just once for something with clearly no available stats and because of that, you keep running from pillar to post spewing pedantic drivel about "generalizations" and "methodology" and avoiding the weightier matters involved - usually evidence of an intellectually challenged slowpoke. Pedantry is still not a refutation. Your telling me to provide stats for something with no stats is an excuse to avoid the glaring issues.
Any slowpoke who has lived in Nigeria knows the overwhelming majority of Nigerians have no access to government/municipal centralized sewage and public water treatment facilities. When most of us build houses, we build our own septic tanks and soak-away pits and gutters and pack our own shiiiit. So why would someone, other than craving distraction and attention, leave that issue to keep rambling about statistics for what is easily evident?

Keep up with your crazed "Ipob" obsession, okay? Don't grow up! Keep being a hateful loser on the internet.

hedonistic:


This kind of thinking is why we are still stuck in the cesspit of underdevelopment.

"Fighting corruption" is not in itself a development plan. Only a mentally lazy government bereft of ideas and creativity would use a so-called motion without movement "war on corruption" to cloak it's incompetence. What is the clear policy blueprint/road map towards development? Two years after Buhari's government came into being, we are still drifting aimlessly like flotsam.

He was displaying sarcasm....get it?

Donexy16:




why do you guys find it so difficult to understand simple sarcasm...this is how you fail exams and blame it on your innocent villagers.

Because Nigerians are so bitter that their minds have been distorted,reason why I hardly comment any more on all social media outlets.

Rossikk:


WRONG. We HAVE started. You just choose to turn a blind eye to every positive, and focus solely on drawbacks. For instance, I'm old enough to remember when we had just one expressway in the whole of Nigeria. Today, they are like hundreds!

Before Jonathan, all Nigerian airports were an embarrassment to behold. Today, you can actually feel proud to walk into a Nigerian airport, be it Enugu, Kano, Kaduna or Benin. Major rebuilding and renovation was done on 12 airports nationwide by the Jonathan administration.

The Abuja-Kaduna rail line commissioned by Jonathan, is a proud symbol of what is to come, in terms of rail facilities going forward.

Lagos is set to launch a modern rail system.

In the 1980s we had only about 20 something universities. Today we have nearly 300. Higher education is expanding.

So there is capacity building going on across the country. It's not as fast as we'd all like, but we are not standing still.



There HAS been progress in diversification of the economy. The GDP is only 15% oil and gas related.




You cannot pick one thing like electricity and say ''See? We have made no progress there, therefore there's been no progress whatsoever''.

That's intellectual dishonesty.

[/quote]

No, we haven't. Every available stat even today still proves our manufacturing has barely inched forward. If anything, loads of companies shut down during the recession, often due to forex scarcity (to add to the myriad of problems industries face) and Nigeria ranks a long way behind in FDI in Africa. A lot of the progress people talk about is PR driven, with plenty of photo ops, signing of MOU's and all that. It's a bit like Trump in the US with a PR campaign heavily publicizing efforts to save a few hundred jobs in some companies when wider national indices indicate he's performing no better than his predecessor in job growth despite inheriting a well-oiled economy.

Nigeria's airports are still an eyesore by international (including African) standards. Jonathan basically did an okay turnover with inflated contracts. They're functional, but hardly something worthy of "national pride". C'mon, man!
As far as infrastructural development, you can't be telling me to ignore the power sector. That would be ridiculous cos that's the main engine of growth. Nigeria's generation capacity recording little increase in 2 decades of pumping billions of dollars into the sector is a national embarrassment. The distribution network is even performing far worse. Water treatment and recycling and sewage disposal and access to municipal water services is still a fantasy for most. Most of the existing facilities are in decay and have hardly been expanded in decades.

Nigerians have amazing willpower to operate in very difficult conditions, but for a nation of our size, Nigeria's infrastructural network is abominable.