Salam,

I have come to one succinct conclusion after reading some literatures on Atheist/Muslim?Christian debate.

Religion goes pari passu with dogmaticism. And Atheists' founding fathers disbelieve anything theological; and to some extent even scientific (which they almost take as their measure for everything).

Having looked at those facts, it might mean pointless in trying to prove that to passionately deluded atheists we  have on NL. Yet that does not mean they cannot be guided; if God, their Creator, wishes them good in life He will surely guide them--via understandable and peaceful dialog with theists. God is the only one that guides. Every Muslim knows this fact.

May Allah, the Exalted, guide us to the right path, amin.

@Tudor

Empirica Evidence that shows without a doubt Allah is the creator. . . And it should be testable/verifiable

have you GOT IT?

Tudor, we believe there's a God (or Creator if you prefer) because of what we see around and within us. The harmony inherent in creation. There's certainly an intelligence behind this all. Everything seems to be there for a purpose and everything seems to be closely and remotely working together.

We certainly know we didn't create ourselves. Most of our biological "functionings" happen automatically without us knowing: Vision, Digestion, Sleep the Nervous System et al. Any student of the biological sciences will attest to the wonder of our creation. Everything, if you observe carefully, has been carefully worked out. A slight alteration in the balance existing in the solar system, will immediately terminate all life on earth!

I believe you're very familiar with these type of arguments, and you certainly know where I'm drifting.  However, a question begs to be answered: Who made all these? Creation exhibits such a high level of advancement and degree of sophistication, that we believe, it couldn't have been by chance. If no one will see a computer (or some device) and say it happened by chance, why should we attribute chance to our own selves?

IbrahimB . . . brilliant summation, only spoiled by the fact that all that was not created by allah . . . himself a creation of pagan arabs.

Well actually David, if you noticed the word "Allah" didn't even appear in my post. I was only trying to prove, in my own way, the existence of a Creator. With a christian, I could discuss "Allah" however with an atheist I would not start off that way. I believe my post should resonate well with all theists?

If I may ask, why did you jump at "allah" even when my post didn't come from an overly religious perspective?

Your name indicated you are muslim, i may be wrong and i apologise if so.

I'm a muslim but my post could very well easily have been written by a christian? I was very careful to use the word "Creator" rather than Allah, so I was a little bit surprised when you straightaway jumped at "Allah"?

IbrahimB:

I'm a muslim but my post could very well easily have been written by a christian? I was very careful to use the word "Creator" rather than Allah, so I was a little bit surprised when you straightaway jumped at "Allah"?

your name gave u away.

your name gave u away.

And so you went straight for the offensive

allah . . . himself a creation of pagan arabs.

You should know better.

IbrahimB:

@Tudor

Tudor, we believe there's a God (or Creator if you prefer) because of what we see around and within us. The harmony inherent in creation. There's certainly an intelligence behind this all. Everything seems to be there for a purpose and everything seems to be closely and remotely working together.

We certainly know we didn't create ourselves. Most of our biological "functionings" happen automatically without us knowing: Vision, Digestion, Sleep the Nervous System et al. Any student of the biological sciences will attest to the wonder of our creation. Everything, if you observe carefully, has been carefully worked out. A slight alteration in the balance existing in the solar system, will immediately terminate all life on earth!

I believe you're very familiar with these type of arguments, and you certainly know where I'm drifting.  However, a question begs to be answered: Who made all these? Creation exhibits such a high level of advancement and degree of sophistication, that we believe, it couldn't have been by chance. If no one will see a computer (or some device) and say it happened by chance, why should we attribute chance to our own selves?

These are mere conjectures and guesses. Because of what we see around we know there's a creator? Ridiculous

Everything working together is no evidence for a creator, it only proves the workings of the universe are always towards a balance of forces as the universe expands.

We might be a consequence of such a drift towards harmony similarly if the universe needed a computer for its workings there's no doubt one will be materialised.

You've presented no reason why the universe MUST have a creator.

There's absolutely nothing ridiculous here. In science, the natural tendency of things is not harmony but disorder! You mentioned expansion of the universe. . . do you know that before this expansion, what we had was disorder (big bang)? Science tells us that an "Isolated System" (in this case a universe without a creator) will always tend towards disorder. This is known as entropy. The expansion you mentioned is actually slowing down, without any external force, this expansion will be at such a rate as to make life impossible.

Now let me ask you some questions:

1. How is it possible that we have such a sophisticated thing as the human society with its cultures, language, tribal differences etcetera from a universe whose origins were chaotic?

2. What was the origin of matter? Did stuff just pop up out of no where?

3. Is the idea of a Creator entirely impossible?

In my view the idea of an external creator (whom we don't fully understand) is more plausible and more probable than the idea that a fly could emerge out of that disorder that was the big-bang.

IbrahimB:

There's absolutely nothing ridiculous here. In science, the natural tendency of things is not harmony but disorder! You mentioned expansion of the universe. . . do you know that before this expansion, what we had was disorder (big bang)? Science tells us that an "Isolated System" (in this case a universe without a creator) will always tend towards disorder. This is known as entropy.

I don't think the our universe is an isolated system as it were. . . . I was taught a truly isolated system does not exist. . . SOMETHING must have caused the big bang, what it is, we do not know.

The expansion you mentioned is actually slowing down, without any external force, this expansion will be at such a rate as to make life impossible.

And you have evidence to show this so-called 'slowing' is magically caused by god?

Now let me ask you some questions:

1. How is it possible that we have such a sophisticated thing as the human society with its cultures, language, tribal differences etcetera from a universe whose origins were chaotic?

Its possible during the expansion of the universe and subsequent formation, destruction and reformation of the galaxies, planets etc, life sprung up as a consequence and after millions of years of evolution for survival and voila! Man is here.

2. What was the origin of matter? Did stuff just pop up out of no where?

Science only tell us what occured after the big bang, prior to that we know nothing and it'll be immature to make uninformed views including attributing it all to an arab magician in the sky.

3. Is the idea of a Creator entirely impossible?

It's entirely possible!
In my view the idea of an external creator

(whom we don't fully understand) is more plausible and more probable than the idea that a fly could emerge out of that disorder that was the big-bang.

To me its better to say i don't know rather than believing you've got a sugar daddy in the sky.

Tudor, the burden of proof is upon you. Pls give us empirical evidence that Allah is not he creator of all.

the_seeker:

Tudor, the burden of proof is upon you. Pls give us empirical evidence that Allah is not he creator of all.

You have got to be kidding me. . . .WHERE did you study logic, the abbatoir?

@Tudor: « #42 on: Today at 02:55:59 PM » (the man who parades himself as a woman, without rhyme or reason, except to show his non conformity. You are a funny human being, but still better than Davidylan who wants Nigeria to become the USA's 51st state or something like that).
[Quote]I don't think the our universe is an isolated system as it were. . . . I was taught a truly isolated system does not exist. . . SOMETHING must have caused the big bang, what it is, we do not know.[/Quote]A person who gets a lesson/lecture, but he still comes out with some unknowns, like you have just stated above, shows that either the teacher or student or both have incomplete knowledge about the subject. Look Tudor, what you are thought is what you know, and not more! If you speak Yoruba language, being my mother's tongue for example, I think it is the best of all languages, if I ignore the spirituality of Arabic because it is the language of Quran. But an Igbo woman, for example, Ohsisi will completely disagree with me, and rightly so, going for Igbo as the best language on earth. I remember her saying that who wants to speak Urhobo because it has Vu, Vu, Vu sound, on a thread which was expressing concern about the rapid disappearance of the language from the tongues of the people who carry her blood. Ohsisi, I am not criticising but using the statement to illustrate that knowledge is limited and not absolute.

Tudor, again, you are saying that SOMETHING that must have caused the big bang is what you dont know. The SOMETHING is a Causer must be bigger and more powerful than Big Bang, and what comes out of it. That SOMETHING, CAUSER is GOD, which you always try to factor out of your argument. Since you dont know, today and right here and right now, HIS NAME is ALLAH, in Arabic, OLORUN in your mother's tongue of Yoruba! He is our Creator since you even believe that He caused the Big Bang to come into play!


[Quote]And you have evidence to show this so-called 'slowing' is magically caused by god?[/Quote]If God made the Big Bang come into existence and according to you all this are therefore as a result of it, the Big Bang, then the slowing down is also a result of it, and the One Who causes the result, the slowing down is the One who caused the Big Bang. That One is GOD, ALLAH, CREATOR!


[Quote]Its possible during the expansion of the universe and subsequent formation, destruction and reformation of the galaxies, planets etc, life sprung up as a consequence and after millions of years of evolution for survival and voila! Man is here.[/Quote]Are you for real? Its possible, and viola, man is here? Ridiculous. You are just guessing and guess work has its pitfalls, and your above is a classic for it. Get it together and come to Allah, man!


[Quote]Science only tell us what occured after the big bang, prior to that we know nothing and it'll be immature to make uninformed views including attributing it all to an arab magician in the sky.[/Quote]There is no arab magician in the sky. Magic is forbidden in Islam, see how the magicians of Pharaoh were debased? And you did not know what happened before Big Bang is a proof that God was existing before it, yet your heart will not allow you to accept the correction now that you told?


[Quote]It's entirely possible!
In my view the idea of an external creator[/Quote]Creator is not impossible, except that you want that Creator to be an internal, instead of the more logical External? Do the makers of Airplanes the airplane itself or reside within it? Are they not external, away from it?


[Quote]
(whom we don't fully understand) is more plausible and more probable than the idea that a fly could emerge out of that disorder that was the big-bang.
To me its better to say i don't know rather than believing you've got a sugar daddy in the sky. [/quote]A sugar daddy? An entity that cares is now a "sugar daddy"? Could it not simply be caretaker? Allah is the Altimate Caretaker!

@Tudor

It's entirely possible!

Thank you very much  

And you have evidence to show this so-called 'slowing' is magically caused by god?

No. I admit I cannot prove the existence of God the way, for example, you can prove that the angles in a triangle sum up to 180.

You've concurred with me that SOMETHING must have caused the big bang. I'm happy with that! And that SOMETHING appears to be a CREATIVE FORCE? You'll agree with me Tudor, that whatever it IS that moves the universe, is creative? For some strange reason, it has chosen order rather than disorder.

Things are infinitely more likely to end up in disorder than they are in order. And time, contrary to what evolutionists claim, will only lead to more disorder in a system.

Its possible during the expansion of the universe and subsequent formation, destruction and reformation of the galaxies, planets etc, life sprung up as a consequence and after millions of years of evolution for survival and voila! Man is here.

Millions of years, billions of years . . . whatever, will only make the possibility of a complex creature like a man more remote. The longer it gets, the worse the prospect! UNLESS, the "interractions and bombardments of the molecules" were in some way externally guided. In creative fashion.

Now, what I want us to be agreed upon, is that that SOMETHING is creative and in a way possesses Intelligence. Is this okay?

IbrahimB:

@Tudor

Thank you very much  

You're WELCOME!

No. I admit I cannot prove the existence of God the way, for example, you can prove that the angles in a triangle sum up to 180.

You've concurred with me that SOMETHING must have caused the big bang. I'm happy with that! And that SOMETHING appears to be a CREATIVE FORCE? You'll agree with me Tudor, that whatever it IS that movesmoved the universe, is creative? For some strange reason, it has chosen order rather than disorder.

Things are infinitely more likely to end up in disorder than they are in order. And time, contrary to what evolutionists claim, will only lead to more disorder in a system.

No! The force dosn't have to be CREATIVE. . . .it could have just kick started a reaction which resulted in the big bang and everything else from there went on its own. . .like I said, all around us we see nature striving towards a state of balance. . .and earth and its inhabitants are a consequence of that.

Millions of years, billions of years . . . whatever, will only make the possibility of a complex creature like a man more remote. The longer it gets, the worse the prospect! UNLESS, the "interractions and bombardments of the molecules" were in some way externally guided. In creative fashion.

This is A LIE! Infact AS TIME INCREASES towards INFINITY, probability of something happening improves.

Now, what I want us to be agreed upon, is that that SOMETHING [b]is creative and in a way possesses Intelligence. [/b]Is this okay?

No! Don't agree at all. The force dosn't have to be intelligent or creative as you put it.

Hmm . . . I can't see my last post. Jarus what's happening? Tudor, you may wish to check my profile & check "Show last post of user". Thanks.

Salam, IbrahimB

Lodge Your Complaints Here to the Mod.

Nice posts. May Allah reward you, amin.

Thanks Muhsin.
I've done that.

Ibrahim just read your post. Brilliant!