ElsonMorali:


That's exactly where the problem is, isn't it?

You are equating God to material creatures.

We have always existed in TIME and SPACE. That is the only realm we can remember. That's why whenever we think about the concept of God, we always think in terms which we understand, TIME and SPACE.

Yet, God who created time and space is himself outside of time and space.

Lemme give you an example to show you that time is an illusion.

(I Hope your imaginative powers are quite strong)

Imagine yourself floating off to space from the earth.

Then you're in space floating and looking at the earth rotate and revolve around the sun.

For you in space, there's no sunrise or sundown. Everywhere is dark and you can see the earth's movement and not be affected by it. There's no way for you to know what time it is because your wristwatch would be useless and the sun is stationary from where you're observing it. So no sunrise or sunset where you are.

Now If you can't imagine that, it will be even difficult to explain that space as we know it is a construct of our minds. Our manas mind.

I Hope haven't lost you yet.

Lol. I'm with u on this. Dat bn said, I'm not equating God to material things in any way. What I'm saying is this ;how come this great Being whose existence is outside space and time.

ElsonMorali:


You probably didn't read my response.

The answer is nobody.

It is a very simple answer But one that is complicated for atheists.

I have gone through ur answer but I just found out u carved a perfect landing for your answer by just positing that He is outside space and time and as such, His existence cannot be fathomed

ElsonMorali:


And it's a question that keeps on repeating ad infinitum.

If you ask, who created matter, what would you say?

Somebody created matter. If you say the big bang, what banged? And who made whatever bang, bang?

So next you ask who created the person who made the big bang, bang?

Whoever created that person must have been created by someone. Who created that someone? Ad infinitum.

So, there must be someone who has always existed, who wasn't created and there was a time he never was, He indeed created everything that exists.

Do you honestly look at yourself and think that you are a product of accidental creation?

It's just like saying that a whirlwind swept through a scrap yard and assembled a Ferrari!

If I understand you well, we are in dsame boat. Since that which created a thing was also created at a time by another bigger being, who den created the one we call God?

ilynem:

2 peter 3:18. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
We are supposed to keep growing in our knowledge of God. You can't know all of Him. Christianity is a school you can't graduate from because everyday you study the word, you find out something new about Him. So no one knows everything about God. We just tend to grow in the knowledge of Him.

I am not asking how you know everything, i am asking how you know even the little you claim to know. You said we cant understand god with our brains but christians know a bit about him and grow in that knowledge. How do christians know the little about him?

Why do you feel the little you know about him is valid based on your tiny brains reasoning while that of freethinkers is invalid based on our same tiny brain.

[quote author=Respect55 post=56749021][/quote]so, if you don't ask them to make finding then it means you tought they the fact about who created God or are you saying the answer is red made in their brain?

The greatest help anyone can for this people don't drag them into whatever they do not want. They know they would be responsible to their words, so give them chance to hold back whatever they wish to hold back.

You can be equity of keeping silent but you can be quicty ...

LiberaDeus:


I am not asking how you know everything, i am asking how you know even the little you claim to know. You said we cant understand god with our brains but christians know a bit about him and grow in that knowledge. How do christians know the little about him?

Why do you feel the little you know about him is valid based on your tiny brains reasoning while that of freethinkers is invalid based on our same tiny brain.

Because we have the word of God. I didn't say you can't know God, I said it is impossible to know all of him. But we can always know more and more as we grow in the faith.

alanka:
can strive to know anything you want in life but don't let it hang on others, don't let it cost anyone, researches do not have limitation it goes on as far as you exists.

Especially when it costs troubles, fights...intelligent people when they get to a place they passive the environment well before action

Make research, don't hang it on anyone here so somebody does say what he does not want to say.

If also you are a good reader, an intellectual, you would have seen that I did not in anyway say someone should make findings.

Why are u taking panadol for other people's headache? Has anybody complained to u about this thread? Learn not to presuppose wen bn faced with a new task. Embrace it with open mind and let that which u are ebe to find out be ur conviction.

alanka:
so, if you don't ask them to make finding then it means you tought they the fact about who created God or are you saying the answer is red made in their brain?

The greatest help anyone can for this people don't drag them into whatever they do not want. They know they would be responsible to their words, so give them chance to hold back whatever they wish to hold back.

You can be equity of keeping silent but you can be quicty ...

If I tell u I understand u, den I lie

Respect55:

I have gone through ur answer but I just found out u carved a perfect landing for your answer by just positing that He is outside space and time and as such, His existence cannot be fathomed

That's exactly my point.

It is easier to teach a 3 year-old the finer aspects of Nuclear Thermo Dynamic Astrophysics than trying to understand even one of the Mysteries of God and His Perfections.

It will take all of eternity for the most brilliant human minds combined with the best angelics minds to even begin plumbing the depth of God.

We can only keep trying to know Him.

For to know Him is to Love Him and to Love Him comes the unquenchable desire to serve Him.

And that is why we exist. The only reason we are in this world. To know, love and serve Him.

Every other thing is by the way.

Respect55:
I don't mean to sound as an atheist but this question has always popped up in my mind every now and then. Now, religious-wise nlanders, help me out.

How Did God Come To Be?

Look to the sky at night and see if you can know the number of stars there. If you do your mind should be able to decipher the answer to that question


Let me try another approach. We live in a three dimensional world(space) everything has length bredth and width. And we can access any point in the 3 dimension as far as you know the coordinates. I cam access my kitchen, lagos, ibadan etc. Imagine God in a 4 dimensional world. With space and time. Imagine being able to access any point in time the same way you can access anywhere around you. Based on this. GOD ALWAYS EXISTS. He has no beginning or end. You can ask further questions.


This is just mg opinion though.

Cc teelaw4lif respect55

adepeter26:

If logic doesn't apply to God, how did you come to realise this? How did you arrive at this conclusion?

How did you arrive at the points/examples you gave above?

You have to understand that the physical plane of existence is a drag on our immortal souls.

We feel hungry, thirsty, tired, sleepy etcetera because we are joined to this mortal flesh till the expiration of our individual mortal lives.

Those who have made huge strides in contemplative life and have had the opportunity to feel existence in the astral plane, or spiritual world If you will, will tell you that this mortal flesh, this realm of time and space, this realm where you have to put one foot in front of the other before you can move the gross matter called flesh, this material world where you have to acquire knowledge through laborious means, is totally inferior to that which comes after death.

Those who go through Near-death experiences will tell you that much too. (Unfortunately, yours truly has only experienced a bit of the Etheric plane and not the Astral plane. Working on it though)

You don't expect that the Creator would bind himself to the laws governing the physical plane, would you? Laws like, time, space, gravity, karma, the wear and tear of the physical plane etc.

If our souls are above that, why would we expect God not to be?

Oh, you don't believe that we have souls, you say?

Come now, even scientists are beginning to believe that there might indeed be something left after the death of the human body. Google is your friend.

Respect55:

So what do u call that period that is outside the time that God created

let me try and explain this with mathematics
Time


-infinity 34bc 2017ad. 3017ad. + infinity





Can you quantify infinity. NO.



God exists between that timeline and our minds cant understand it

Respect55:

If I understand you well, we are in dsame boat. Since that which created a thing was also created at a time by another bigger being, who den created the one we call God?

You are approaching this from the wrong perspective.

You are asking the wrong questions.

Here, Let me help you:

Start with yourself, How did you come to be born? Because of daddy and mommy, right?

So, How did daddy and mommy come to be? Because of their own parents right?

So, If you're patient and tenacious enough, you'll get to a point where you'll have to pick between the concept of Adam and Eve or evolution (man being a tadpole in some slimy muck and then stepping out unto dry land, adapting and becoming man.

Then logically our next question should be... that's right, where did that tadpole, or whatever humans evolved from came from?

If you keep this up, you'll prolly be close to 90 years old by the time to get to the big bang.

So, you'll then ask yourself, what is the big bang? WHO made it bang?

Nothing cannot just bang all by itself. Something or someone must have made it bang.

Who is that person, or force?

Then you'll start the Almighty loop. Who created the person that created the person that created... I'll leave you now to continue the loop yourself...

Respect55:

If I understand you well, we are in dsame boat. Since that which created a thing was also created at a time by another bigger being, who den created the one we call God?

You can only ask this question because you are subconsciously attributing the qualities of a created being to God.

Just like your mind finds it difficult to grasp the idea or picture How a square-circle or a triangle-square or even a black light or white shadow would look like, (because you haven't seen one before in this life), so also your mind will find it impossible to grasp the concept of an uncreated Being, simply because everything you've always seen and known were created. Your clothes, your house, your car, heck we even rear animals and plants for food.

Once you can step outside of that limitation of your mind concerning God being the uncreated Creator, then you'll have a eureka moment. And that begins your journey in search for God.

I can only Hope Seun will join you in this journey.

ilynem:

Because we have the word of God. I didn't say you can't know God, I said it is impossible to know all of him. But we can always know more and more as we grow in the faith.

How do you know what you have is the word of god? Please dont tell me its because the book says so cause there are tons of books like that

B

Respect55:
I don't mean to sound as an atheist but this question has always popped up in my mind every now and then. Now, religious-wise nlanders, help me out.

How Did God Come To Be?

This is a question we should have asked more than 100 years back. I guess we are just waking up to ask it now.

Wilgrea7:


Hello.. God is believed to be eternal.. without beginning or end.. the premise that “everything has a creator" is wrong... the correct premise is “everything that begins to exist has a cause/creator( i used creator because I'm approaching it from a theistic point of view)

.. God is believed to be existing... He is not believed to have begun to exist at any point in time.. so it cannot be said that He was created

God the Universe(Sum total of energy) can neither be created nor destroyed.

OtemAtum:
BThis is a question we should have asked more than 100 years back. I guess we are just waking up to ask it now.

But some feel it isn't necessary

ElsonMorali:


You can only ask this question because you are subconsciously attributing the qualities of a created being to God.

Just like your mind finds it difficult to grasp the idea or picture How a square-circle or a triangle-square or even a black light or white shadow would look like, (because you haven't seen one before in this life), so also your mind will find it impossible to grasp the concept of an uncreated Being, simply because everything you've always seen and known were created. Your clothes, your house, your car, heck we even rear animals and plants for food.

Once you can step outside of that limitation of your mind concerning God being the uncreated Creator, then you'll have a eureka moment. And that begins your journey in search for God.

I can only Hope Seun will join you in this journey.

If u succeed in convincing me that God is an uncreated creator, will it be out of place den if I argue dat He doesn't exist since He wasn't created? I say dis because for a thing to be, it has to be caused.

ElsonMorali:


You are approaching this from the wrong perspective.

You are asking the wrong questions.

Here, Let me help you:

Start with yourself, How did you come to be born? Because of daddy and mommy, right?

So, How did daddy and mommy come to be? Because of their own parents right?

So, If you're patient and tenacious enough, you'll get to a point where you'll have to pick between the concept of Adam and Eve or evolution (man being a tadpole in some slimy muck and then stepping out unto dry land, adapting and becoming man.

Then logically our next question should be... that's right, where did that tadpole, or whatever humans evolved from came from?

If you keep this up, you'll prolly be close to 90 years old by the time to get to the big bang.

So, you'll then ask yourself, what is the big bang? WHO made it bang?

Nothing cannot just bang all by itself. Something or someone must have made it bang.

Who is that person, or force?

Then you'll start the Almighty loop. Who created the person that created the person that created... I'll leave you now to continue the loop yourself...

The last part of ur post is wia my interest is. It beats. Y imagination wen dey say we shouldn't ask lest we fall into the sin of heresy

That's Why He is Called GOD, He Has No Creator, He wasn't created.... If He was Created Then Why call him God instead of the one that Created Him....He has No Beginning Neither an Ending.

LiberaDeus:


How do you know what you have is the word of god? Please dont tell me its because the book says so cause there are tons of books like that

Well, for one you need to see that accuracy on the prophesies of the Bible.
Well there are many reasons. Scientific accuracy, historical backing, etc. But I will give you two of them. One of them is the apt prophesies in the Bible. Majority of them was about Jesus! Being born of a virgin, being crucified (note that this prophecies were made when when even crucifixion was not a thing), his death and resurrection, etc. Also you really need to read about Daniel's prophesy of Alexander the great. You will be amazed at what you find.
Secondly, the Bible stands sure and true even till this present day. I remember one of my lecturers (an atheist) saying that the problem the Bible would have is that the world is changing. And the Bible might not be able to keep up. But it has been over 2000 years and it is still keeping up. The depths of knowledge in the Bible is one no other book can rival. People have to update books to keep up with the changing world but the Bible remains relevant even till today. Let us take for instance, the Koran which supports the beating of women. At that time it was a norm for husbands to beat their wives as a form of discipline. But with the rise of feminists and other women rights blah blah blah, beating your wife has become a travesty. This is where other "holy" books like the Koran has a problem. Shariah is not compatible with the present day society. The society preaches separation of church and state but search deep in the Bible, that came from Jesus himself when He said, "give to Caesar what is his and to God what is His". Also Paul talks about men and women being equal in Galatians 3, and preaches against wife beating even when at that time it was normal.
The Bible is futuristic and will continue to keep up with time.

NigerianScholar:
let me try and explain this with mathematics
Time


-infinity 34bc 2017ad. 3017ad. + infinity





Can you quantify infinity. NO.



God exists between that timeline and our minds cant understand it

Is it that our mind can't grasp it or we haven't really made meaningful efforts to come to terms with it. Big achievements starts small in most cases. We might be in for a big thing.

NigerianScholar:

Look to the sky at night and see if you can know the number of stars there. If you do your mind should be able to decipher the answer to that question


Let me try another approach. We live in a three dimensional world(space) everything has length bredth and width. And we can access any point in the 3 dimension as far as you know the coordinates. I cam access my kitchen, lagos, ibadan etc. Imagine God in a 4 dimensional world. With space and time. Imagine being able to access any point in time the same way you can access anywhere around you. Based on this. GOD ALWAYS EXISTS. He has no beginning or end. You can ask further questions.


This is just mg opinion though.

Cc teelaw4lif respect55

That He exists is not a problem to me. In dsame vein, that wic exists must have began to exist unless it doesn't exist at all. Who or what den caused dat His existence

ElsonMorali:


That's exactly my point.

It is easier to teach a 3 year-old the finer aspects of Nuclear Thermo Dynamic Astrophysics than trying to understand even one of the Mysteries of God and His Perfections.

It will take all of eternity for the most brilliant human minds combined with the best angelics minds to even begin plumbing the depth of God.

We can only keep trying to know Him.

For to know Him is to Love Him and to Love Him comes the unquenchable desire to serve Him.

And that is why we exist. The only reason we are in this world. To know, love and serve Him.

Every other thing is by the way.

So, insofar we haven't really found out how He came to be, den it is a problem yet to be solved

Respect55:

So, insofar we haven't really found out how He came to be, den it is a problem yet to be solved

Why do you think it is a problem that needs to be solved?

You don't seem to understand what I have written so far.

No one, inasmuch as you are a created intelligence, not even the most brilliant of all angelic minds can phatom the depth of God.

It isn't a problem. The little we know of Him should make us worship in awe and make us want to know him more.

Respect55:

The last part of ur post is wia my interest is. It beats. Y imagination wen dey say we shouldn't ask lest we fall into the sin of heresy

Yes. So Many people have fallen away when they tried to capture God within their limited mindset, just like you're doing, and they've become atheists because they feel that a God that cannot be fathomed by them cannot exist. Just like someone would say since I haven't seen ghosts, so by ethnic don't exist. That'd be simplistic.

There's a limit to How much any created mind, human or angelic can grasp.

We need to accept this otherwise we are incurably proud and full of ourselves.

Respect55:

If u succeed in convincing me that God is an uncreated creator, will it be out of place den if I argue dat He doesn't exist since He wasn't created? I say dis because for a thing to be, it has to be caused.

For a thing to be, it has to be caused. This is only true regarding all created beings, whether in this plane of existence If matter or in other planes of existence which we even know nothing of.

If you say He doesn't exist because he wasn't created, you are equating Him to you as well as denying your own existence.

You can't then make sense If your own existence.

At the beginning of our discussion, If you remember, I wrote that proof of God's existence (for us) is embedded in our own existence.

There's no way you look at yourself and not see that the human being has been intelligently crafted. And intelligence can only be attributed to a living being.

If like some atheists and God haters say, that we were created by some aliens from outer space, the next logical question jumps right at you. Who created them aliens?

You have to get by that point where you realize that there must there should be, there IS an uncreated Creator who has always existed and will always exist.

Respect55:

Is it that our mind can't grasp it or we haven't really made meaningful efforts to come to terms with it. Big achievements starts small in most cases. We might be in for a big thing.

see the answer to your question.





just leave this question unanswered because you will end up chasing shadows

NigerianScholar:

see the answer to your question.





just leave this question unanswered because you will end up chasing shadows

Lol. No harm in trying

ElsonMorali:


For a thing to be, it has to be caused. This is only true regarding all created beings, whether in this plane of existence If matter or in other planes of existence which we even know nothing of.

If you say He doesn't exist because he wasn't created, you are equating Him to you as well as denying your own existence.

You can't then make sense If your own existence.

At the beginning of our discussion, If you remember, I wrote that proof of God's existence (for us) is embedded in our own existence.

There's no way you look at yourself and not see that the human being has been intelligently crafted. And intelligence can only be attributed to a living being.

If like some atheists and God haters say, that we were created by some aliens from outer space, the next logical question jumps right at you. Who created them aliens?

You have to get by that point where you realize that there must there should be, there IS an uncreated Creator who has always existed and will always exist.

Ur reference to the atheists' view that humans were created by some aliens which in turn results to the qtn of who den created the aliens follows the same path as that of the Biblical view. That is, if we den accept that God man man, we can't as well be wrong by asking who made Him

ElsonMorali:


Yes. So Many people have fallen away when they tried to capture God within their limited mindset, just like you're doing, and they've become atheists because they feel that a God that cannot be fathomed by them cannot exist. Just like someone would say since I haven't seen ghosts, so by ethnic don't exist. That'd be simplistic.

There's a limit to How much any created mind, human or angelic can grasp.

We need to accept this otherwise we are incurably proud and full of ourselves.

Enquiry is not an act of pride