Another one Fraud

Does Earth Spread Out Like Carpet (flat)?
Quran 15: 19 And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon Mountains firm and immovable;

Quran 78: 6-7 Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs (anchor)?

Upon examining the testimonies of these great companions, the answer was positive. They clearly stated that perversion and loss of large fragments of the Qur’an did occur. Let us scrutinize their testimony in order to present to deluded Muslims the truth as it is proclaimed by their trusted spiritual leaders and scholars. The deceptive veil must be removed so people can see the true face of the Qur’an.

’Ibn Umar al–Khattab explicitly admits,

"Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur’an has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available"’ (Suyuti: Itqan, part 3, page 72).

A’isha (also page 72) adds to the story of ibn Umar and says,

"During the time of the prophet, the chapter of the Parties used to be two hundred verses when read. When Uthman edited the copies of the Qur’an, only the current (verses) were recorded" (73 verses).

The same statement is made by Ubay ibn Ka’b, one of the great companions. On page 72, part 3, the Suyuti says,

"This famous companion asked one of the Muslims, ‘How many verses in the chapter of the Parties?’ He said, ‘Seventy-two or seventy-three verses.’ He (Ubay) told him, ‘It used to be almost equal to the chapter of the Cow (about 286 verses) and included the verse of the stoning.’ The man asked, ‘What is the verse of the stoning?’ He said, ‘If an old man or woman committed adultery, stone them to death."’

This same story and same dialogue which took place between the companion and one of the Muslims is recorded by Ibn Hazm (volume 8, part 11, pages 234 and 235). Then Ibn Hazm said,

"’Ali Ibn Abi Talib said this has a reliable chain of authority (The Sweetest [Al Mohalla] vol. 8.)."

The Zamakh-shari also cited it in his book, "al-Kash-Shaf’ (part 3, page 518).

These are unquestionable statements made by the pillars of the Islamic religion who transmitted Muhammad’s sayings and biography, "The Tradition", and who interpreted the Qur’an— among them Ibn ’Umar, A’isha, Ubay Ibn Ka’b and ’Ali Ibn Abi Talib. Ibn ’Umar states that a large part of the Qur’an was missed. A’isha and Ubay Ibn Ka’b assert that dozens of verses from the "Chapter of the Parties" have been lost. ’Ali confirms that, too. In regard to this particular verse, the following incident is recorded in "The Itqan" by Suyuti (part 1, page 168),

"During the collection of the Qur’an, people used to come to Zayd Ibn Thabit (with the verses they memorized). He shunned recording any verse unless two witnesses attested to it. The last verse of chapter of Repentance was found only with Khuzayma Ibn Thabit. Zayd said, ‘Record it because the apostle of God made the testimony of Khuzayma equal to the testimony of two men.’ ’Umar came with the verse of the stoning but it was not recorded because he was the only witness to it."

One can only wonder and ask, "Does ’Umar need another witness to agree with him? Would he lie to God and the Qur’an? Because of that, ’Umar said after that, "If it were not that people would say, "Umar has added to the book of God’, I would have recorded the verse of the stoning" (part 3, page 75 of the Itqan). Refer also to skiek Kishk’s book (part 3, page 64). Another confession by A’isha:

"Among the (verses) which were sent down, (the verse) of the ten breast feedings was abrogated by (a verse which calls for five breast feedings. The apostle of God died and this verse was still read as part of the Qur’an. This was related by Abu Bakr and ’Umar" (refer to Suyuti’s qan, part 3, pages 62 and 63).

[LOOK AT A BIG CONTRADICTION: COMPOSITION OF HEAVEN BY ISLAM ITS LOOKING LIKE HELL NOT HEAVEN OH


"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, 'we are Christians'." (Sura 5:85)
This is supported to some extent by an explanatory note in the "Mishkat" (IV page 103, note 2380) where we are told that "nearly two-thirds of paradise" will be filled with "the followers of the Holy Prophet and the followers of other prophets will form one-third." In strange contrast to this are the words of Sura 5:51


"Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends."
What about being together in Paradise? The reason is just as strange:


"They (Jews and Christians) are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
It can hardly be said that Jews and Christians have ever protected each other, except that they agree on the authenticity of the Old Testament.

It is said of Mohammed that he was the first to bow down to Allah (in Islam) (Sura 6:14, 163, 39:12). But it is also said of Abraham, his sons and Jacob that they were Muslims (Sura 2:132), and of all earlier prophets who brought 'books' (i.e. Moses, David and Jesus) (Sura 28:52-53). Again it is reported of the disciples of Jesus that they were Muslims (Sura 3:52).

All these we view as contradictions. Some would not be of a serious nature, were it not for the claim that the Quran is "nazil" or "brought down" from heaven to Mohammed without the touch of human hand - except for the act of writing itself.

QUESTION: Is there any uncontradicted statement in the Quran on which a Mulsim can rely to have eternal life in heaven?

[LOOK AT A BIG CONTRADICTION: COMPOSITION OF HEAVEN BY ISLAM ITS LOOKING LIKE HELL NOT HEAVEN OH


"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, 'we are Christians'." (Sura 5:85)
This is supported to some extent by an explanatory note in the "Mishkat" (IV page 103, note 2380) where we are told that "nearly two-thirds of paradise" will be filled with "the followers of the Holy Prophet and the followers of other prophets will form one-third." In strange contrast to this are the words of Sura 5:51


"Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends."
What about being together in Paradise? The reason is just as strange:


"They (Jews and Christians) are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
It can hardly be said that Jews and Christians have ever protected each other, except that they agree on the authenticity of the Old Testament.

It is said of Mohammed that he was the first to bow down to Allah (in Islam) (Sura 6:14, 163, 39:12). But it is also said of Abraham, his sons and Jacob that they were Muslims (Sura 2:132), and of all earlier prophets who brought 'books' (i.e. Moses, David and Jesus) (Sura 28:52-53). Again it is reported of the disciples of Jesus that they were Muslims (Sura 3:52).

All these we view as contradictions. Some would not be of a serious nature, were it not for the claim that the Quran is "nazil" or "brought down" from heaven to Mohammed without the touch of human hand - except for the act of writing itself.

QUESTION: Is there any uncontradicted statement in the Quran on which a Mulsim can rely to have eternal life in heaven?

@backslider,

coming soon with yoyur response.

take care.

babysin,

uve gone to the site again to lift from there having failed you on countless occasions

as usual blabs787 is doing what he knows best. Escaping the question to "come back with a response"! All the while ferreting for answers from the internet!

babs787:

@backslider,

coming soon with yoyur response.

take care.

babysin,

uve gone to the site again to lift from there having failed you on countless occasions

what do you dispute from that site?

@ babatunde,
Hope you will learn to sit and down and learn rather rather jumping here and there

babatunde abi babangida

@babyosis,

to be factual with you, i have not checked the site but be rest assured that babs will surely come up something debunking your allegations posted from your site.

na you get your mouth, you may call me babyosis if you feel like

stay cool.
by the way, where is my professor (shahan), i really missed her no be small.

mrpataki,

am not jumping here and there but to learn, please teach me what i dont know.

davidylan,

well, you are entitled to your opinion. didnt you see that he posted many quranic verses in which treating them one after the other will take time, but surely you will definitely hear from me.

take care brothers and sister till you hear from babs

babyosisi:

babatunde abi babangida

Babaginda makes it worse!

@babs

You have not answered the question and you have not refuted the Spiritological statement I listed.

@Backslider,

I have been expecting this type of post from you. I intentionally ignored you post. The reason is that it is not because of pride, arrogance or whatever but because of the arrangement of the post.

It will be highly appreciated sir, if you will arrange the questions i.e. listing the contradictions one after the other and probably bringing out the verses and babs will surely respond.

you will see that the above didnt look like questions but opinion but will be happy if you can arrange them for me.

Lastly, we may be of different religion but that doesnt mean that babs will start throwing insult or resort to name calling. The reason for saying is that the tone of my post may sound somehow but never meant to be disrepectul in one way or the other. It is only when babs is being pushed to the wall that he responds with the same measure. Respect is Reciprocal.

I do hope that my post is clearly understood.

Thanks very much for the understanding and may God bless.

backslider did you backslide from Islam into Christ?

@baby0sisi

I have never a muslim before. But I attended one (Ansar-ur-Deen) that was hostile to me. The lord saw me through.

What is the punishment for adultery?

Flogging with a 100 stripes (men and women) [24:2],

"confine them to houses until death do claim them (lifelong house arrest - for the women)

[4:15]. For men: "If they repent and amend, leave them alone" [4:16].

24:2 contradicts both the procedure for women and men in Sura 4.

And why is the punishment for women and men equal in Sura 24 but different in Sura 4?

Still waiting for response

Posted by: Backslider  
Insert Quote
What is the punishment for adultery?

I am very sorry for my late response. The last time I check the thread was when you replied babyosis' post, so seeing your name appearing as the last post, I thought its still the same message.

Flogging with a 100 stripes (men and women) [24:2],

"confine them to houses until death do claim them (lifelong house arrest - for the women)

[4:15]. For men: "If they repent and amend, leave them alone" [4:16].

24:2 contradicts both the procedure for women and men in Sura 4.

And why is the punishment for women and men equal in Sura 24 but different in Sura 4?

The above is not contradiction and will never be. Its known as Naasuukh and Mansuukh.

Naasuukh and Mansuukh is a situation where a revelation has been abrogated by another.

Though the Holy Prophet said nothing on this because he knew that all verse are valid when necessary.

Let me stop there first and explain to you about Mecca and Medinah Surahs, then I continue again.

Revelation was made to the Holy Prophet (saw) both in Mecca and Medinah respectively.

The holy Prophet did not have much time to go into the details as separating the two  because

time did not permit him
It was only nine days the prophet (saw) used on earth after the last revelation was made.

Like i was saying, the prophet never said on the abrogated verses because there was no time.

But the people who inherited the Quran tried indicating the verses that people may say contradict each other and made explanations on them that they were rather abrogations.

The verses believed to be abrogated verses are about 21 but only five of them were agreed upon by the scholars because the remaining 16 were later understood not to be among the abrogated verses.

Quran 4v15 has been abrogated by Quran 24v2.

let me give you another example to buttress my saying

Quran 2v240 has been abrogated by Quran 4v12.

With the above examples, it is being agreed that they are abrogated verses. Abrogated verses in the Quran are still strong, only time to use them are different.Abrogated verses do not mean Contradiction just as in the case of the bible.

Thats the best way  I can explain

Some Muslim call it Naskeh or sometime like what you qouted there is not abrogation in this. I very well know about Abrogation in the Quran and this is what some muslim Scholars expound and this is not accepted as a General Truth You and I know this but let us look at the 2 other quranic verses you quoted carefully and see if there is any Abrogation.

Please try to Quote the Quran when making a Statement

002.240
YUSUFALI: Those of you who die and leave widows should bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and residence; but if they leave (The residence), there is no blame on you for what they do with themselves, provided it is reasonable. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.


PICKTHAL: (In the case of) those of you who are about to die and leave behind them wives, they should bequeath unto their wives a provision for the year without turning them out, but if they go out (of their own accord) there is no sin for you in that which they do of themselves within their rights. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

SHAKIR: And those of you who die and leave wives behind, (make) a bequest in favor of their wives of maintenance for a year without turning (them) out, then if they themselves go away, there is no blame on you for what they do of lawful deeds by themselves, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

As Against


004.012
YUSUFALI: In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to any one). Thus is it ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Most Forbearing.

PICKTHAL: And unto you belongeth a half of that which your wives leave, if they have no child; but if they have a child then unto you the fourth of that which they leave, after any legacy they may have bequeathed, or debt (they may have contracted, hath been paid). And unto them belongeth the fourth of that which ye leave if ye have no child, but if ye have a child then the eighth of that which ye leave, after any legacy ye may have bequeathed, or debt (ye may have contracted, hath been paid). And if a man or a woman have a distant heir (having left neither parent nor child), and he (or she) have a brother or a sister (only on the mother's side) then to each of them twain (the brother and the sister) the sixth, and if they be more than two, then they shall be sharers in the third, after any legacy that may have been bequeathed or debt (contracted) not injuring (the heirs by willing away more than a third of the heritage) hath been paid. A commandment from Allah. Allah is Knower, Indulgent.


SHAKIR: And you shall have half of what your wives leave if they have no child, but if they have a child, then you shall have a fourth of what they leave after (payment of) any bequest they may have bequeathed or a debt; and they shall have the fourth of what you leave if you have no child, but if you have a child then they shall have the eighth of what you leave after (payment of) a bequest you may have bequeathed or a debt; and if a man or a woman leaves property to be inherited by neither parents nor offspring, and he (or she) has a brother or a sister, then each of them two shall have the sixth, but if they are more than that, they shall be sharers in the third after (payment of) any bequest that may have been bequeathed or a debt that does not harm (others); this is an ordinance from Allah: and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.


THE PRINCIPLE OF ABROGATION I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR A VERSE IN THE QURAN THAT SUPPORT THIS THESIS. PLEASE HELP ME WITH WHERE I CAN THIS. WETHER IN THE QURAN OR THE HADITH.

@backslider,

Once thanks for your post. Let me first give you the verse on abrogation

Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.

Now since you said there is no relationship in your aforementioned verses, I will like to ask a very honest question

To you, what do the verses aimed at? i.e, what are the two verses referring to?

@bab787

I think you can reason for yourself. I quoted the Quran and you can read for yourself. I have a commentary On this Abrogation. I have posted read it will help you.

[

babs787:



Naasuukh and Mansuukh is a situation where a revelation has been abrogated by another.

Though the Holy Prophet said nothing on this because he knew that all verse are valid when necessary.

Let me stop there first and explain to you about Mecca and Medinah Surahs, then I continue again.

Revelation was made to the Holy Prophet (saw) both in Mecca and Medinah respectively.

The holy Prophet did not have much time to go into the details as separating the two  because

time did not permit him
It was only nine days the prophet (saw) used on earth after the last revelation was made.

Like i was saying, the prophet never said on the abrogated verses because there was no time.

But the people who inherited the Quran tried indicating the verses that people may say contradict each other and made explanations on them that they were rather abrogations.

The verses believed to be abrogated verses are about 21 but only five of them were agreed upon by the scholars because the remaining 16 were later understood not to be among the abrogated verses.

Quran 4v15 has been abrogated by Quran 24v2.

let me give you another example to buttress my saying

Quran 2v240 has been abrogated by Quran 4v12.

With the above examples, it is being agreed that they are abrogated verses. Abrogated verses in the Quran are still strong, only time to use them are different.Abrogated verses do not mean Contradiction just as in the case of the bible.

Thats the best way  I can explain

really,one verse of Koran is abrogated to allow Muhammad to indulge in what was previously harem.
This allah sef

allah loves his servant

babs787:

Though the Holy Prophet said nothing on this because he knew that all verse are valid when necessary.

Is there a time when a verse is not valid when necessary? Are we to understand that anyone can just choose willy-nilly when a verse is not necessary as to render it invalid?

babs787:

But the people who inherited the Quran tried indicating the verses that people may say contradict each other and made explanations on them that they were rather abrogations.

Doesn't this immediately establish the fact that some people tried to tamper with the revelations Muhammad purportedly gave his companions? As they were not in the position of Muhammad to have received "revelation", how would they have known which was which among the 'abrogated' verses?

babs787:

With the above examples, it is being agreed that they are abrogated verses. Abrogated verses in the Quran are still strong, only time to use them are different.Abrogated verses do not mean Contradiction just as in the case of the bible.

There were no abrogated verses in the Bible, as "Scripture cannot be broken" - John 10:35.

The 'abrogated' verses in the Qur'an is another matter entirely, and gives the meaning of verses having been "revoked" or "abolished". The idea of the possibility of abrogating verses only indicate that the revealer wasn't God.

@backslider,

Soon you will see my detailed explanation on abrogation.

I would have replied but been very busy.

Salam

@babs787

While you are at it please give me an hadith that will be Most Authentic so that I can begin to study!!!!

Thank you

Shalom

ABROGATION

It has been read that the reason for the abrogated verses in the Quran has been given based on the verses supporting abrogation.

But going through the bible, it becomes clear that omnipotent and omniscient God did make mistakes and repented. This means that the God did not know his own actions and the outcomes of the actions.

Now for some fine examples.let us first start with Old Testament. In the story of Noah, it is mention that:

And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground anymore for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done. [Genesis 8:21]

He repented

And in the story of Moses, we read

And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. [Exodus 32:14]

God repenting??

Posted by 4 get me
there were no abrogated verses in the Bible, as "Scripture cannot be broken" - John 10:35.

Lets see there if there are no abrogated verses in the bible

We all understand that abrogation means to annul, to abolish etc

Jesus said:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19)

Meaning that he didnt come to make any abrogation abi.

Lets see if really the above statement is true

Abrogation Of Divorce

The best examples of Jesus abrogating parts of Old Testament law concern a number of statements recorded in the gospel according to Matthew. The most prominent of them would be the Law concerning Divorce.

In the Old Testament we find the following law concerning divorce:

If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, (Deutronomy 24:1-2)

Now without going into the minute of this particular law of divorce, one thing becomes immediately clear. Not only is divorce permitted by God, it is legal for her to remarry.

However in the time of Jesus, the rules of divorce seem to have taken a U-turn.

"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31-32)

Here Jesus abrogated the former permission to divorce according to the husband's displeasure and strictly allowed it under one condition - adultery. He even went so far as to legislate that divorcees were not permitted to remarry, clearly abrogating the former permission. But what is the reason given for this abrogation? Had God changed His mind? Is this evidence of God not being omniscient? Or more importantly, is this evidence that in fact God was never the author of these laws?

Well Jesus himself explains:

"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Matthew 19:7-9)

Jesus points to the fact that God designs laws that are suitable to the needs and exigencies of the time and audience.

Law Of Absolute Justice

In the book of Deteronomy:

Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (Deutronomy 19:21)

Quite a harsh law of absolute justice that was necessary due to the conditions of Moses' age. But Jesus was inspired by God to reveal a softer code for the believers to practice in individual relationships. By abrogating the harshness of absolute justice, Jesus was inspired to encourage the believers to employ forgiveness and mercy. It is recorded he said:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42)

It is a different story that many Christians do not practice what Jesus has told them to do.

Law Of Oaths

We read:

If you make a vow to the LORD your God, do not be slow to pay it, for the LORD your God will certainly demand it of you and you will be guilty of sin. But if you refrain from making a vow, you will not be guilty. Whatever your lips utter you must be sure to do, because you made your vow freely to the LORD your God with your own mouth. (Deutronomy 23:21-23)

That is, it is permissible to make an oath for various reasons, however, the swearer must fulfil the oath he makes. In Jesus' time it became necessary for him to abrogate this permission so that the swearing of oaths became forbidden. In Matthew it is recorded:

"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your `Yes' be `Yes,' and your `No,' `No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. (Matthew 5:33-37)

Jesus Abrogating His Own Commandments

Perhaps the clearest example of God inspiring Jesus to practice abrogation can be seen in the commissioning of his disciples. It is written in the New Testament that initially Jesus forbade his disciples from preaching to non-Jews. He restricted their activities and commanded them to avoid Gentiles. However, due to the change in circumstances and the completion of his earthly mission, Jesus abrogated this earlier law and made it not only permissible but obligatory for his disciples to reach out to a broader base.

A nice example of Jesus asking his disciples to preach the lost sheep of Israel is:

These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. (Matthew 10:5-6)

This prohibition is reinforced by Jesus' own practice:

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:22-24)

Even though because of his mercy Jesus healed the sick daughter, he made it clear that his mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. Later on this was abrogated and Jesus commanded his disciples to reach out to all peoples. It is recorded he said:

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:18-20)

It is clear that the concept of abrogation: the nullifying of an older commandment or practice in favour of a newer law, is nothing new and it has been practiced by God for reasons known to him. What we know is that the laws governing the mankind (i.e., Shariah) changes according to the needs of the society. But the concept of monotheism (i.e., Tawheed) remains the same. The Creator knows very well that his creation, the humans, need time and discipline to grow and mature, He reveals commandments and practices that help them develop both as individuals and as members of society.

And Allah knows best!

Maa Salam

Absolutely Amazing !!!!!!!****&&&&$$%%@@@@@@~!!@###############

YOU are quoting the SCRIPTURE or am Not seeing well this is great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

READ BELOW


Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:18-20)


THIS IS THE THEME OF THE BIBLE JESUS IS A LAW SO WHEN YOU LIVE BY AND HIM YOU CANNOT BE JUDGED BY ANY LAW. YOU ARE QUOTING THIS AND YOU DONT EVEN KNOW WELL HOPE GOD GIVES YOU THE EYES TO SEE THAT ALL POWER IN HEAVEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@@@@@@@@@@##########&&&**** And EARTH IS GIVEN TO HIM.

THE LAW IS LOVE AND GOD IS LOVE

@babs787,

babs787:

ABROGATION

It has been read that the reason for the abrogated verses in the Quran has been given based on the verses supporting abrogation.

But going through the bible, it becomes clear that omnipotent and omniscient God did make mistakes and repented. This means that the God did not know his own actions and the outcomes of the actions.

Remember also that you are describing the "God" in the Qur'an whom Muhammad called "Allah" and claimed he revealed the Torah to Moses. So, in effect, Allah was the one who made mistakes and was fluctuating between opinions when revealing the Qur'an to Muhammad. That is why Muslims have ever been looking for loopholes in the Bible to explain away the clear abrogations of Qur'anic verses.

babs787:

Now for some fine examples.let us first start with Old Testament. In the story of Noah, it is mention that:

And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground anymore for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done. [Genesis 8:21]

He repented

Where in Genesis 8:21 did you read that God made a mistake??

babs787:

And in the story of Moses, we read

And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. [Exodus 32:14]

God repenting??

In Exodus 32:14, where did you read that God made a mistake?

babs787:

Posted by 4 get me
there were no abrogated verses in the Bible, as "Scripture cannot be broken" - John 10:35.

Lets see there if there are no abrogated verses in the bible

We all understand that abrogation means to annul, to abolish etc

Jesus said:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19)

Meaning that he didnt come to make any abrogation abi.

Lets see if really the above statement is true

Abrogation Of Divorce

The best examples of Jesus abrogating parts of Old Testament law concern a number of statements recorded in the gospel according to Matthew. The most prominent of them would be the Law concerning Divorce.

In the Old Testament we find the following law concerning divorce:

If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, (Deutronomy 24:1-2)

Now without going into the minute of this particular law of divorce, one thing becomes immediately clear. Not only is divorce permitted by God, it is legal for her to remarry.

However in the time of Jesus, the rules of divorce seem to have taken a U-turn.

"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31-32)

Here Jesus abrogated the former permission to divorce according to the husband's displeasure and strictly allowed it under one condition - adultery. He even went so far as to legislate that divorcees were not permitted to remarry, clearly abrogating the former permission. But what is the reason given for this abrogation? Had God changed His mind? Is this evidence of God not being omniscient? Or more importantly, is this evidence that in fact God was never the author of these laws?

Your dishonesty at play. Where did Jesus ever mention an abrogation of any verse of the Old Testament?

babs787:

Well Jesus himself explains:

"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Matthew 19:7-9)

Jesus points to the fact that God designs laws that are suitable to the needs and exigencies of the time and audience.

Law Of Absolute Justice

In the book of Deteronomy:

Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (Deutronomy 19:21)

Quite a harsh law of absolute justice that was necessary due to the conditions of Moses' age. But Jesus was inspired by God to reveal a softer code for the believers to practice in individual relationships. By abrogating the harshness of absolute justice, Jesus was inspired to encourage the believers to employ forgiveness and mercy. It is recorded he said:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42)

It is a different story that many Christians do not practice what Jesus has told them to do.

Where did you read that Jesus was inspired to reveal a softer code?

babs787:

Law Of Oaths

We read:

If you make a vow to the LORD your God, do not be slow to pay it, for the LORD your God will certainly demand it of you and you will be guilty of sin. But if you refrain from making a vow, you will not be guilty. Whatever your lips utter you must be sure to do, because you made your vow freely to the LORD your God with your own mouth. (Deutronomy 23:21-23)

That is, it is permissible to make an oath for various reasons, however, the swearer must fulfil the oath he makes. In Jesus' time it became necessary for him to abrogate this permission so that the swearing of oaths became forbidden. In Matthew it is recorded:

"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your `Yes' be `Yes,' and your `No,' `No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. (Matthew 5:33-37)

Where did you read that Jesus mentioned an abrogation of the Law?

babs787:

Jesus Abrogating His Own Commandments

Perhaps the clearest example of God inspiring Jesus to practice abrogation can be seen in the commissioning of his disciples. It is written in the New Testament that initially Jesus forbade his disciples from preaching to non-Jews. He restricted their activities and commanded them to avoid Gentiles. However, due to the change in circumstances and the completion of his earthly mission, Jesus abrogated this earlier law and made it not only permissible but obligatory for his disciples to reach out to a broader base.

A nice example of Jesus asking his disciples to preach the lost sheep of Israel is:

These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. (Matthew 10:5-6)

This prohibition is reinforced by Jesus' own practice:

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:22-24)

Even though because of his mercy Jesus healed the sick daughter, he made it clear that his mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. Later on this was abrogated and Jesus commanded his disciples to reach out to all peoples. It is recorded he said:

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:18-20)

Where did you read at all that Jesus was abrogating His own commandment?

babs787:

It is clear that the concept of abrogation: the nullifying of an older commandment or practice in favour of a newer law, is nothing new and it has been practiced by God for reasons known to him. What we know is that the laws governing the mankind (i.e., Shariah) changes according to the needs of the society. But the concept of monotheism (i.e., Tawheed) remains the same. The Creator knows very well that his creation, the humans, need time and discipline to grow and mature, He reveals commandments and practices that help them develop both as individuals and as members of society.

In Islam, abrogation of verses is clearly a tenet - and not one Muslim scholar is sure what verses are abrogated in the Qur'an. It is all a matter of convenience for whosoever, whensoever and whatsoever.

Just ferreting verses from the Bible to claim a so-called abrogation has not helped your drivel. The Bible never abrogates itself in any verse; and the Old Testament verses you quoted were not meant to be perpetuated. You also failed to understand the basis of the two covenants - the Old and the New. Both appertain to different settings, and one could not be confused for the other. Rather than "abrogation", Jesus came to FULFILL them.

Whereas in the case of the Qur'an, Muhammad's "Allah" was never sure of himself from the onset. First he reveals a verse, then annuls it with with another - and no one is certain which is which. Besides, any attempt to translate the Qur'an is seen as immediately ceasing to be the word of "Allah" and has become something else.

@backslider,

Posted by: Backslider
Insert Quote
Absolutely Amazing !!!!!!!****&&&&$$%%@@@@@@~!!@###############

YOU are quoting the SCRIPTURE or am Not seeing well this is great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

READ BELOW

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:18-20)

THIS IS THE THEME OF THE BIBLE JESUS IS A LAW SO WHEN YOU LIVE BY AND HIM YOU CANNOT BE JUDGED BY ANY LAW. YOU ARE QUOTING THIS AND YOU DONT EVEN KNOW WELL HOPE GOD GIVES YOU THE EYES TO SEE THAT ALL POWER IN HEAVEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@@@@@@@@@@##########&&&**** And EARTH IS GIVEN TO HIM.

THE LAW IS LOVE AND GOD IS LOVE

I dont understand what you meant by the above. Please shed more light on the verse telling me the reason for above.

Maa Salam

my brother babs787

what i am saying is that You are quoting the bible and you dont know what you are saying this makes me understand why you claim you were a Christian and you dont even know Scripture.

I cant help you with this Though you need to humbly ask the Holy Ghost to teach. Ask like a babe (that is Humble)

Shalom In the Name Of The Lord Jesus

@ 4 get me

Posted by 4 get me
and claimed he revealed the Torah to Moses.

Your fellow christians are aware that there is something called 'Torah' unless you want to lie.

Posted by 4 get me
So, in effect, Allah was the one who made mistakes and was fluctuating between opinions when revealing the Qur'an to Muhammad. That is why Muslims have ever been looking for loopholes in the Bible to explain away the clear abrogations of Qur'anic verses.

Okay. You know that Allah gave us reasons for the abrogation viz:

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" Quran 2: 106

"When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not." Quran 16:101

Let us re-read the verse below:

And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground anymore for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done. [Genesis 8:21]

If i say I will not AGAIN do anything. What does that means to you. To me it means that I have been doing it or done it before and want to put a stop to it. Is that your own meaning too? If it is, lets go on.

Also in the third line, we see the word 'AGAIN' meaning that God will not be smiting them as he used to.

Now brother, If I say I will not be doing something again, what does that mean to you? Let me have you own view too. To me it means, I have repented from what I have been doing. So also God, He repented from cursing the ground and also repented from smiting them. Is that not so? God made mistake in cursing and smiting people

If not, let me have your meaning

Posted by 4 get me
In Exodus 32:14, where did you read that God made a mistake?

Let me give you a verse from another author
Exodus 32v14: So the Lord WITHDREW HIS THREAT and didnt bring against his people the disaster he had threatened.

In all fairness, what does the above mean to you? If I say, 'I want to do something but will not be doing it again', what does it implies?

Lets take the verses one after the other

1. Abrogation Of Divorce

If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, (Deutronomy 24:1-2)

But Jesus in his own time said
"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31-32)

Look at this man, he is expecting Jesus to say 'abrogation'.

What does the above means to you? Moses said that they can divorce and re-marry but Jesus said that it is written in their law that they can divorce BUT THAT NOW that is now alllowed and that they cant marry divorcee.

1. What does that means to you when Jesus nullifies a law and replaces with another?


2. Law Of Absolute Justice

In the book of Deteronomy:

Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (Deutronomy 19:21)

Jesus again said:
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42)

Is the above not a softer code?
2. Brother what does the above means to you, Jesus replacing Moses' law with his? Is that not abrogation?

3. Law Of Oaths

If you make a vow to the LORD your God, do not be slow to pay it, for the LORD your God will certainly demand it of you and you will be guilty of sin. But if you refrain from making a vow, you will not be guilty. Whatever your lips utter you must be sure to do, because you made your vow freely to the LORD your God with your own mouth. (Deutronomy 23:21-23)

That is, it is permissible to make an oath for various reasons, however, the swearer must fulfil the oath he makes. In Jesus' time it became necessary for him to abrogate this permission so that the swearing of oaths became forbidden. In Matthew it is recorded:

"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your `Yes' be `Yes,' and your `No,' `No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. (Matthew 5:33-37)

Another question
3. Moses said that you can make vow but Jesus came with his own knocking off that of Moses. What do you call a situation where a verse cancels another?