Viaro, dont make me laugh.

There is only one reason why you evade my query: and that is the fact that it shows up a very simple truism - namely -

That there are shades of supposed giving which in both degree and direction are eminently, manifestly and unquestionably unchristian.

There is nothing wrong in being generous and giving to one's leaders or pastors. It is good.

However, the questions that Deepsight put forth highlight the furthest possible abuse of "giving to pastors" and there is everything wrong with that.

It goes against the humble examples we see of 'pastors' in the bible, whose concern was not the accumulation of wealth or the entertainment of lavish gifts from their converts but rather the solemn dedication to only preaching the gospel and living an exemplary lifestyle that was evident of selflessness and self-denial. What we see in Naija goes against in spirit and in practice the examples laid before us in the bible and I daresay Paul coulda gathered for himself great wealth from his countless followers if he wanted to.

Now that's eloquently put, Arte.

Wonder why it was so hard for Viaro.

Maybe he's hiding from something?

The truth, perhaps?

Deep Sight:

Viaro, dont make me laugh.

There is only one reason why you evade my query: and that is the fact that it shows up a very simple truism - namely -

You don't have to be such an idiot if you missed the very fact I was going to answer your questions AFTER KunleOshob has answered mine. Were you blind that I already said so? If I didn't want to indulge you, I would say so as simply as you can read it. You don't just barge in with your fusty garb and resume your idiocy from whereever you lost it the last time.

b]That there are shades of supposed giving which in both degree and direction are eminently, manifestly and unquestionably unchristian.[/b]

And that is supposed to be news to viaro, no? I have news for you - you're stale. I was asking KunleOshob simple questions on his assertions following what OLAADEGBU had posted. I was interested in what he made of a particular verse that any simpleton could understand. If you were seeking a dialogue, I would oblige. Next time dry-clean your retired idiocy before you call my attention to your slobs.

Epele sir - many apologies for my "i.diocy."

We are however, firmly aware that -

1. Empty barrels make the loudest noise and -

2. It is usual that persons respond with unsolicited insults when they have nothing sensible to say.

Awaiting the next round of vulgarities, Viaro.

Deep Sight:

Now that's eloquently put, Arte.

Wonder why it was so hard for Viaro.

Maybe he's hiding from something?

The truth, perhaps?

Please see just an example here that I'm not oblivious of what Arte was trying to explain.

Deep Sight:

Epele sir - many apologies for my "i.diocy."

We are however, firmly aware that -

1. Empty barrels make the loudest noise and -

2. It is usual that persons respond with unsolicited insults when they have nothing sensible to say.

Awaiting the next round of vulgarities, Viaro.

For one, I don't even try to "pretend" at consummate hypocrites like you who go about first throwing derision at others and the come back to whine when replied in same manner. I guess you wewre such an idiot to not realise that after I tried to address you simply, you were first to call me escapist? Did that sound sensible to you? You just turn out describing the empty barrel you are and boring us all with you loudest noise. Twerp.

Viaro, easy now, oga no vex like that. Even if Deepsight threw the first punch, we should simply turn the other cheek and return with blessing no?

viaro:

If anything at all, I want a sensible answer to this one:

Even thoug there are examples of people giving to the apostles in the new testament, it was never taught as christian giving.

(a) Please tell my why giving to apostles is NOT 'Christian giving'.

(b) If it is not Christian giving, [size=14pt]what is it - pagan giving?[/size]

You must have a descriptive term for it - it is either 'Christian giving' or it is not, in which case it would be an anti-Christian giving, so please let us know what you want to call it.

Even though there were examples of people giving to the apsotles in the bible it should not be mis-construed as the core teachings of christ as far as giving is concerned. he way i define christian giving are givings based on the direct teachings of christ and not all forms of giving found in the bible. Christ taught giving to the poor and the needy. The way i understand it giving should be targetted at meeting the needs of those in need. The apostles had needs, if the giving was to meet their needs it would be termed as christian giving, but if the giving was to finance their excessies as it is very rampnat in our churches today, it is no longer christian giving. You can not classify all forms of giving as either pagan or christian. i can give to my pastor out of appreciation but that des not mean it is a christian giving. Our obligations as christians to to give to those in need first be it pastor, beggar or even muslims as christ did not discriminate amonsgt them. The brethen Jesus was talking about in matthew 25 were not even christians as you wrongly tried to imply, the christian religion had not even started then. Those whom Jesus referred to as his brethen are the poor and the needy and not chriistians who didn't even exist when he made that statement and definitely not pastors whom can be likekend to the religious leaders of that time [the pharisees] whom Jesus was very critical of their ways.

Arté:

Viaro, easy now, oga no vex like that. Even if Deepsight threw the first punch, we should simply turn the other cheek and return with blessing no?

I could reason with people who want to reason, not hypocrites who fall all over themselves pretending to be reasonable and won't stop being the hypocrites they are anyday - even after several cautions. If it was a stranger I hitherto have not discussed with, I would discuss without any problems. DeepSight is not out to discuss and has shown that many times. Next time he misses his feeding bottle and can't find his nanny, the last person he wants to approach with his fusty pyjamas is viaro.

Excellent.

Throw a tantrum.

Hurl insults.

Make libelous claims.

Do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING -

Except address the question.

So who's not interested in proper discourse now?

^^I won't put up with your hypocrisy, so stop waving the victim's card - that is below you. I answered that my replies would come after KunleOshob has answered my queries - that should have spoken volumes to you of my willingness to discuss. You were first to play your usual idiocy, and I made clear that I won't put up with it? Are you dying from that? Keep playing the dunce you are and making excuses for your dramas.

KunleOshob:
Even though there were examples of people giving to the apsotles in the bible it should not be mis-construed as the core teachings of christ as far as giving is concerned. he way i define christian giving are givings based on the direct teachings of christ and not all forms of giving found in the bible.

No problem. So, are we to regard the apostles' teaching on giving as running counter to the teachings of Christ then?

Christ taught giving to the poor and the needy. The way i understand it giving should be targetted at meeting the needs of those in need.

Did the apostles not teach the same things? Besides, if the apostles felt that their teaching on giving were running counter to Christ's teachings, why did they not reject the givings they received from Christians in various churches? Another thing was that Christ also received givings from others as well, no?

The apostles had needs, if the giving was to meet their needs it would be termed as christian giving, but if the giving was to finance their excessies as it is very rampnat in our churches today, it is no longer christian giving. You can not classify all forms of giving as either pagan or christian. i can give to my pastor out of appreciation but that des not mean it is a christian giving. Our obligations as christians to to give to those in need first be it pastor, beggar or even muslims as christ did not discriminate amonsgt them. The brethen Jesus was talking about in matthew 25 were not even christians as you wrongly tried to imply, the christian religion had not even started then. Those whom Jesus referred to as his brethen are the poor and the needy and not chriistians who didn't even exist when he made that statement and definitely not pastors whom can be likekend to the religious leaders of that time [the pharisees] whom Jesus was very critical of their ways.

I didn't ask you about practices today in many quarters, and I consider such things the necessry distractions you use to condemn Christian giving wholesale. I have never at anytime been in support of excesses in any form, but I don't let that become grounds for me to lose sight of what the Bible teaches. Which was why I asked you why you were berating OLAADEGBU for simply quoting some verses where there was nothing he said that pointed to support of excesses. Please, could you show me what exactly he said that made you deride him in such a manner? Thanks.

Nuella, Adegbu,


Anytime some of you folks hear or read the word "GIVE" does it put your mind immediately on overdrive? MONEY to me is one of the LEAST and simplest things to give in the scheme of things, money is NOT everything to me (I can only speak for me), it is very EASY to outsource your giving but Salvation is not about making the easy choices if you ask me.

There are lots of us who proclaim Christianity but yet never offered to help an elderly neighbor shovel their driveway or run errands for them in the midst of the snow storm we have, it might be easier to order them food but don't you think they too might want to go out? That's an example (Before some folks aim RPGs at me )

Sowing comes in many shapes and forms and not just "put your money where your mouth is"

ogajim:

Sowing comes in many shapes and forms and not just "put your money where your mouth is"

'Put your money where your mouth is' is a well-known simple expression (examples here and here). I don't think that OLAADEGBU's use of that expression meant that he was supporting the excesses of bling-bling preachers. There was no need to focus on that and become reactive at just the mention of 'money'.

Dude! You have no walked in my shoes, I am old enough to know the expression as well but unless you know Adegbu "off camera" then I would think he meant what he said in the way he said it.

I don't think I accused him of "contributing to the delinquency" of the "bling-bling" preachers either but stating the obvious.

ogajim:

Dude! You have no walked in my shoes, I am old enough to know the expression as well but unless you know Adegbu "off camera" then I would think he meant what he said in the way he said it.

I don't think I accused him of "contributing to the delinquency" of the "bling-bling" preachers either but stating the obvious.

You have not walked in other people's shoes, so what are you on about? If you have anything in the quote that showed him to be what you're at pains to misconstrue of him, please show. I don't think you're helping the situation by making insinuations that are not in that quote OLAADEGBU made.

It is not healthy for us to be making all sorts of underhanded suggestions about people - especially where those worried about his post have not been able to show what exactly in his simple statement is warranting all these concerns.

viaro:

No problem. So, are we to regard the apostles' teaching on giving as running counter to the teachings of Christ then?

Did the apostles not teach the same things? Besides, if the apostles felt that their teaching on giving were running counter to Christ's teachings, why did they not reject the givings they received from Christians in various churches? Another thing was that Christ also received givings from others as well, no?

The apsotles NEVER taught you should givetothem so as a formof christian giving or as a requirement for God to bless you. People gave to them on their own accord not as a result of apostles teaching or soliciting for gifts. What we read in the bible is references to people giving to the appostles and not teachings that people should give to the apostles, these are two entirely diffeent things and should not be mis- construed for each other. Were as there is nothing wrong in giving to preachers to assist in meeting the needs there is everything wrong in a preacher of the gospel using the gospel to enrich himself at the detriment of the poor and needy that christian giving is targeted at.

KunleOshob:

The apsotles NEVER taught you should givetothem so as a formof christian giving or as a requirement for God to bless you.

I did not at anytime ask you if it was a "requirement", so that point there is quite inconsequential. I would have appreciated simple answers to the simple questions I asked.

People gave to them on their own accord not as a result of apostles teaching or soliciting for gifts.

People gave both as a result of their own accord as a a consequence of the apostles' teaching - that much is clear from a careful reading of the New Testament.

What we read in the bible is references to people giving to the appostles and not teachings that people should give to the apostles, these are two entirely diffeent things and should not be mis- construed for each other.

I did not try to misconstrue them; and that aside, you're deviating from my earlier enquiry, sir. I am sure you know that the apostle Paul made requested the giving assistance of Christians are various places where he taught - otherwise he would not have said any such things at all.

Were as there is nothing wrong in giving to preachers to assist in meeting the needs there is everything wrong in a preacher of the gospel using the gospel to enrich himself at the detriment of the poor and needy that christian giving is targeted at.

I agree with that. But even so, that is not news to me, nor did I ask for such things. It would have been great if you helped to attend to the issues i offered to you direct, and not whether anyone was asking for a "requirement" or whether some were enriching themselves at others' expense.

Jesus has more to say about rewarding our services and giving:

[40] He that receives you receives me, and he that receives me receives him that sent me. [41] He that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. [42] And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say to you, he shall in no wise lose his reward. -- Matthew 10:40-42

Giving to believers as seen in the passage above is recommended by Jesus Christ and it is up to us to be sure that we are not giving to charlatans but genuine ministers of the gospel. Jesus gave us the blueprint for discerning the wolves among the sheep. He said that "by their fruits you shall know them" (See Matt.7:15-20).  Jesus expects us to be wise and discerning who we give to.

OLAADEGBU:

Jesus expects us to be wise in giving to people posing as ministers of the gospel but giving to the right ones will surely be rewarded.

Hi OLAADEGBU, good summary - but please edit this part quoted above so people understand you more easily. Perhaps you meant rather to say: "Jesus expects us to be wise in NOT GIVING to people posing as ministers of the Gospel", no? If not, my apologies - maybe I read it the wrong way. But good recap.

viaro:

Hi OLAADEGBU, good summary - but please edit this part quoted above so people understand you more easily. Perhaps you meant rather to say: "Jesus expects us to be wise in NOT GIVING to people posing as ministers of the Gospel", no? If not, my apologies - maybe I read it the wrong way. But good recap.

Thanks for reading my mind. I have edited it accordingly. You have done well by properly interpreting my tongue speaking which clarifies my points. Thanks and God bless.

OLAADEGBU:

He said that "by their fruits you shall know them" (See Matt.7:15-20). Jesus expects us to be wise and discerning who we give to.

I am suprised you know this warning in the scriptures, i really wonder why you have refused to heed this warning and tolerate preachers who twist scripture to fleece the flock in the name of tithes which is certainly not a christian teaching but was merely introduced to christianity by wolves in the catholic church in the sixth century.

KunleOshob:

I am suprised you know this warning in the scriptures, i really wonder why you have refused to heed this warning and tolerate preachers who twist scripture to fleece the flock in the name of tithes which is certainly not a christian teaching but was merely introduced to christianity by wolves in the catholic church in the sixth century.

Giving has always been part of God's our lives, I dont know what you mean by fleecing, Nothing is wrong with it as long as its scriptural. If a sheep is fleeced of wool ,it will only be a blessing to others and that does not reduce the sheep.

The Catholic church realized the error. Ever since then tithing was no longer an obligatory, it is optional. In NA(Catholic churches) it is very rare for us hearing a sermon emphasises on tithing.

KunleOshob:

I am suprised you know this warning in the scriptures, i really wonder why you have refused to heed this warning and tolerate preachers who twist scripture to fleece the flock in the name of tithes which is certainly not a christian teaching but was merely introduced to christianity by wolves in the catholic church in the sixth century.

It is not rocket science to realise that there are wolves in sheep clothings. Nevertheless, we should not throw out the baby with the bath water. The fact that some charlatans have abused the systematic giving does not mean that Christian giving is to be abandoned and The Church is not the Roman catholic church so whatever they did or did not do should not be the yardstick for measuring the true Church of God which is a gathering of people who have been washed and forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ. The counterfeit is the evidence of the original.

It is unfortunate that a lot of Christian ministries ask for money from their audience, often with the promise that God will prosper them if they give. God knows the intentions of these so called preachers or pastors, but the unsaved people doesn't, and therefore get easily misled by the practice. Ministers of the gospel should be careful never to give the wrong impression that their motivation for demanding money is the love of money and Christian giving means giving prudently. Look at their lifestyle, works, integrity and mission before deciding who to give your hard earned cash to, you are on your own if you give to the yahoo boys.

"Buy the truth and sell it not; also wisdom and instruction and understanding." -- Proverbs.23:23