Mabell, at this stage of the game you are coming up with this? Come on now!

olowolekan:

The story I narrated happened in my church.I am not a pastor but a believer like you.If you pay tithe, do you pay it to me?But as far as I understand and know,tithe is compulsory.Pastor bakare may not agree with other pastors on the topic and he has not the final say.The Bible is our guide and not pastor Bakare.I just shared someone testimony.Why are there doctrinal diffences since we all use the same Bible.Let's leave the matter to God.As many are led by the spirit of God are the sons of God.Now an assignment.Let us forget all we know about tithe and go to God in prayer for direction.Whatsoever God tells you please mail me and I will do likewise.May the Lord help us.Amen

It is true that Pastor Tunde Bakare is not the final authority on any subject of scripture - and indeed, he himself says that what he teaches about tithing is not a law unto other Christians, and I agree with such a position on spiritual matters.

There are many pastors who teach tithes as a compulsory part of the Christian faith; but there are also many, many more pastors who teach that tithes are voluntary. The reason why I often agree with the latter is because spiritual matters are not to be forced on any believer. God wants His children to be led by His Spirit, that is why He did not make any man the authority of the spirit of His children.

The 'compulsory' and 'voluntary' divides over the subject of tithes (and in fact, any other type of giving) are unnecessary. The Lord Jesus taught us to look out for fruit in our Christian walk. In that regard, I feel that if we take time to look at the result (or fruit) of teaching coercive/compulsory giving, we shall find tears and weeping - just as the prophet Malachi has declared. But when our 'giving' (whether tithes, firstfruit, freewill offerings, or any other thing anyone calls it) comes from the heart willingly without mechanical compulsion of any sort, shall we not find much more rejoicing?

It is because we want to see believers giving joyfully, that is why we take the time to repeatedly and consistently tell the goodnews: tithing is NOT compulsory but VOLUNTARY. How shall we give, or with what attitudes and manners does God expect the Christian to approach Him with his/her gifts (tithes, offerings, etc)? Let's remind ourselves:

[list]Exodus 25:2 - 'Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering'

Exodus 35:5 - 'Take ye from among you an offering unto the LORD: whosoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it, an offering of the LORD; gold, and silver, and brass'

Exodus 35:21 - 'And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing, and they brought the LORD'S offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments'

1 Chronicles 29:9 - 'Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy'

Ezra 2:68 - 'And some of the chief of the fathers, when they came to the house of the LORD which is at Jerusalem, offered freely for the house of God to set it up in his place'

2 Corinthians 8:11 & 12 - 'Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have; For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not'

2 Corinthians 9:7 - 'Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver'[/list]

Now, the last quoted verse is one of my favourites - that is what encourages my heart to know that God is not seeking compulsory offerings or compulsory tithes: "NOT GRUDGINGLY" - "NOT OF NECCESSITY" . .  a cheerful giver is one who understand that he/she is not coerced or forced or threatened in any way to give anything. God's Word also says: "he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity" (Romans 12:8 ).

In very fact, the NASB says in 2 Corinthians 9:7 - "not grudgingly or under compulsion". What does that tell viaro? Simple: when you give, do not do so under compulsion. DON'T!

What more should I say other than that I have now not appealed to Pastor Tunde Bakare? He did not write the Bible; but if the Bible should speak with authority, let all other 'compulsory' pastors listen to that verse again: "DO NOT do so under compulsion".

May God seal His blessings of grace and freedom upon your heart - let Him bless you more than viaro can testify.

ogajim:

Viaro, my point (since you avoided it or didn't get it) with the Haitian relief question is this:

Again, apologies. I did not intend to avoid or evade the point - that was why I asked questions and invited you to correct me where I got you wrong.

Since it is not compulsory that our donations to the Haitian relief efforts go through the Red Cross,  it can't be compulsory either that our Christian GIVING be through a Church or Pastor, you can see a need in someone or a group of people and try your best to fulfill it.

Okay, let's not quarrel over that. I did not suggest at any time that people should not support any relief effort, whether Red Cross or Haiti (or even the one Pastor AIO mentioned: 'Medecins San Frontieres'). If I suggested that one way or the other it was compulsory, please show me - I am not above apologising and takeing corrections.

In very simple fact, this was essential my reply to Pastor AIO:

[list](a)

You would notice that my views on these things do not tend to "exclusive divides" (said so in post #14). It is not a question of either this or that between 'better' alternatives, so it's not here a matter of between the church and an organisation. In Scripture there are clear verses pointing particularly to giving in Church, which do not mean that giving through other channels are more or less 'better' or 'efficient'

. . note that his first questions was about "maximizing efficiency" of his gift ('If I want to help the sick children of the world am I better off giving to the church or giving to Medecins San Frontieres', said he).[/list]

[list](b)

I also noted that this principle is "applied in so many instances to other aspects of our lives and faith"; and although it includes the question of using our resources (financial and material) in the Kingdom, it is not necessarily limited to the examples given thus far.

As to how the relationship works, it depends on what exactly the enquirer has in mind. If, for example, it is on the question of using our material resources to reach out to people in the Body of Christ, the relationship works on the basis of 2 Corinthians 8:14 - 'that there may be equality', where our resources help to better the circumstances of believers in the Body of Christ.

[/list]

Now, do my replies to Pastor AIO suggest that I was denying anyone any privilege or calling anyone "stingy" or. . . what exactly did I say before you accused me of sounding like "some of these money mongers fleecing the flock bling in the name of our Lord"?? Again, I still have not got your point where I might have made such a statement that warranted your accusations - please let me know.

Just because others don't share your principle of giving doesn't make them anti this or anti that, we need to learn to control our emotions no matter the situation. Insults are for elementary school or even pre K kids who are still learning the ropes.

You should know you insulted my person with "money mongers", which was rather uncalled for. I had endured such castigations (or in your own words, 'pessimistic or cynical conjecture') coming from you and your friends; and despite my saying repeatedly that I would not be accommodating of such, you guys kept that attitude up until I took a stand to not allow you get away with it.

If on the other hand some of you (especially you ogajim) feel that you're quite at home with your anti-tithing campaign, I don't see how you should come back complaining about being identified as such. It isn't so long ago that you typed in all caps that 'TITHING IS A SCAM' - and if you didn't expect a reaction to that, you would not have been so brazen. Not to mention that when I tried to make clear that it was not my intention to put everyone in a box, TV01 came along mocking what he had no clues about (if he as well was satisfied with being called an anti-tither, what is the complain all about then?).

Confidence doesn't always equal conceit, in one of your quoted responses where I wrote in German that I was no kid, you replied calling me a kid in German, do I follow that up? No way Jose.

I remember the thread. Did you note how caustic your language was to have warranted my reply in German? Oh c'mon, ogajim. .  far earlier than then, did you not call me another term in German? Not that this is a big deal, but I wonder why you reharshing these things from the past? Maybe it's me, but I like to move on and let the past be. If it can't be rested until you draw my ears on it, then please receive my apologies and let's put it behind us.

It might help to get testimony from those who tithe knowingly but I do understand it is not a democracy in here

I could give you so many. I suggested doing so in another thread; but Zikkyy (if I remember well) thought that subjective reports were of little value - and that was why I did not do so.

Pilgrim1 Oops sorry i mean viaro your so passionate about tithes 

I better use that 10% to buy shovels   ya know in this bad weather (foots of snow) we need to clear the driveway

manmustwac:

Pilgrim1 Oops sorry i mean viaro your so passionate about tithes

Hehehe. . yes, I am - even outside Nairaland. You will notice that for sometime I just ignored a few other threads on NL discussing tithes until this one came up. Our anti-tithing friends are also passionate about tithes, no?

manmustwac:

Pilgrim1 Oops sorry i mean viaro your so passionate about tithes 

Ain't dat de 'trute'

And Pilgrim.1 very much likes to quote 'comentator this', 'commentator that', 'commentator the other' including people (some of them quite respectable people though imperfect as everyone is) such as Coffman, Pink, MacArthur etc. Here is one pilgrim.1 made earlier --- go down to the middle and Coffman, Pink, McArthur quotes will come up.

Funny those quotes were also repeated with others on this thread. Coffman, Pink McArthur start from number 7 on this one.




EDITED

Pay ur Tithe. Before you think of anything else, your tithe is the first thing you should always pay.

Enigma:

Ain't dat de 'trute'

And Pilgrim.1 very much likes to quote 'comentator this', 'commentator that', 'commentator the other' including (quite respectable people though imperfect as everyone is) such as Coffman, Pink, MacArthur etc. Here is one pilgrim.1 made earlier --- go down to the middle and Coffman, Pink, McArthur quotes will come up.

Funny those quotes were also repeated with others on this thread. Coffman, Pink McArthur start from number 7 on this one.

I see another liar creeping out of his bedbug cublicle. While you're in a hurry to confuse people and quoting those links where pilgrim.1 made those excerpts, did you ever read what I wrote back in the page where I made my excerpts? No, I guess not - but let me oblige you:

viaro:

Could we compare notes from various sources on what some seasoned theologians have said on this very Hebrews 7:18? Did they unanimously argue that it was 'tithes' that were "abolished" in that verse, or rather something else? Let us see [size=14pt](I've had to borrow some notes and sources already posted on this forum)[/size]:

So, if I borrowed some of hers and added mine, that makes viaro = pilgrim.1, no?

When you make such hasty conclusions, be careful to read well - but no, I don't expect you would, that is why you were whining about "scholarship" where you have demonstrated none. I guess that's why you were troubling Traugott earlier about 'pilgrim.1 and mavebox' joining viaro offline when emailing Traugott! Yep, folks like you knock yourselves out making all sorts of warped ideas because you have completely lost sight of what the thread was about in the first place. Fill in the gap with your lies - it's your hallmark.

^^Hehehe. . Enigma, you played cheap - far too cheap that it wasn't any trouble wasting you and your folks. You lot were making it far too easy for me to set you straight because it didn't seem you were interested in a genuine discussion. It's no secret that I'd taken the time to follow pilgrim's arguments on tithes . . as well closely tried to follow KunleOshob's. So I understand what that lady did to you and your gang!

The one I pity most is TV01. . goodness! Let me just say I saw things in many threads!! But most of all, I understand why you're driven to jump to conclusions about your theory of making me into either pilgrim.1 or mavenbox (or maybe mabell. . hahaha ). Yep, I also saw the threads where pilgrim almost ripped you and TV01 to shreds until the thread was locked and a new one opened! I saw all these things, but I don't follow people gullibly - that's why I do my checks first before agreeing or disagreeing. Where I agree, it adds to my knowledge, and I expand my notes in further searches.

To me, when people have lost focus and are no longer interested in genuine discussions, they very quickly tend to distractions (mavenbox = viaro, etc., etc., etc.) - these are not necessary. If I played that game I would very quickly lose sight of the subject, that is why I would rather remain focused with the substance of what I hope to present.

But enjoy - it's your call to show me another pair of winks and dark googles, hehehe. I didn't find it funny (pardon me), but don't take any tough replies too personal.

Viaro, biko, dont mind them with their accusations jare.

Ogajim, so my youth is showing through my real age? Im glad. Thats the fruit of Isaiah 40:31

viaro:

The one I pity most is TV01.

Pilly! Pilly!! Pilly!!! This is the second time today you are taking my name in vain. The first time you co-opted my moniker to buttress you deceit about "spiritual principles". Sladerously implying that I considered tithing a "principle". Its not and I don't. Tithing is a practice, which doctrinally has pretty much zero relevence in Christian life. Practically, some may find it useful in a purely religious sense, but the mature and/or Spirit-led will really just scratch head at the notion.

The only other concession I will give is to the sovereignty of God. He does as He pleases and could indeed ask one of His own to tithe. Once, occassionally, for a period. He is sovreign. But that would not constitute a body-wide re-institution of tithing - unless of course He asked it of each and every believer, and even then it wouldn't be doctrine - that would be to contra.indicate scripture. See me bending over backwards to help you cover your unclothedness . Please don't take this and run dat your mouth in contrarily fashion 0! . Nonsense & ingredient!

Now to principles, these are essentially derivatives of love. Loving God and your fellow man. Love does no harm to a neighbour. Indeed it makes you willing to act sacrificially on his/her behalf. It means you will render fair justice (equity, judgement), be merciful and have faith in them even in the face of the most appalling behaviour.

Its on that count that  I have relented this once and address you directly. As while you have totally discredited yourself and been glaringly exposed thereto - A Pilly word   - having to re-incarnate as Viaro to cover your shame - and unfortunately continue your falsehood - I wish you well and can still remember that your presence and contributions were in many regards a blessing to many. Why reduce youself to adding only nuisance value? I have long harboured deep suspicions about your motivation and spiritual provenance. Please prove me wrong.

As ever God bless
TV


^{Now, has anyone figured out the alias "Traugott", or do I have to do everything around here  !}

TV01:


^{Now, has anyone figured out the alias "Traugott", or do I have to do everything around here  !}

Well spotted! True to God I was still coming round to that. Another view that I'm coming round to is that we may be dealing with a pathological/medical case --- things like bipolar etc.  (Edit: I have to admit that the Traugott one is one of the cleverer ones!)

TV01:

Pilly! Pilly!! Pilly!!! This is the second time today you are taking my name in vain.

Eh, dude. .  it's quite late where I live, so if your pajamas are fusty, you don't have to call out for attention. I still pity you the most among the lot pilgrim.1 dealt with, but you must have been dreaming far too much about her to be confusing persons here. Did I take your name in vain? Apologies - but tune in your channels properly so we don't get further entertained by your cacophony. Sorry.

The first time you co-opted my moniker to buttress you deceit about "spiritual principles".

I've got no deceit - none. Principles, yes - and you said so yourself, no? If I quoted you wrong, again I apologise, and then you can right it, no?

Sladerously implying that I considered tithing a "principle". Its not and I don't.

That's fine - you're not under arrest for what you maintain. But whatever did you mean by this: "However the principles and spirit  behind them remain, there's just a more excellent, more glorious way of fulfilling them"?? You may yap all you want, but making statements and then falling all over yourself - where did you crawl out from?

Tithing is a practice, which doctrinally has pretty much zero relevence in Christian life. Practically, some may find it useful in a purely religious sense, but the mature and/or be Spirit-led will really just scratch head at the notion.

Isn't that so cutely showing why you suffer from doublespeak? This is how you guys show you really have 'no problem' with Christians who tithe, no? Bro, your sanctimony is a bit weathered now, so think of another excuse or change your channel any which way you choose.

The only other concession I will give is to the sovereignty of God. He does as He pleases and could indeed ask one of His own to tithe. Once, occassionally, for a period. He is sovreign. But that would not constitute a body-wide re-institution of tithing - unless of course He asked it of each and every believer, and even then it wouldn't be doctrine - that would be to contra.indicate scripture.

huh??  The 'sovereignty of God' - He would could INDEED ASK one of His own to tithe?? Are you out of your mind or you're being remoted from across the hemisphere? I could hardly believe that you would be speaking the language of a tither, if I didn't know you too well! poor dude!

See me bending over backwards to help you cover your unclothedness . Please don't take this and run dat your mouth in contrarily 0! . Nonsense & ingredient!

Hehehe. .  I'm not the exposed one - you can ring up your 'BOSS' who's been lying up and down the street!  If you lost his contact addy, just ask ogajim!

Isn't it funny that I have not had to change anything about what I argue on this subject, and you lot have been knocking yourselves off the cliff for your inconsistencies?

Now to principles, these are essentially derivatives of love. Loving God and your fellow man. Love does no harm to a neighbour. Indeed it makes you willing to act sacrificially on his/her behalf. It means you will render fair justice (equity, judgement), be merciful and have faith in them even in the face of the most appalling behaviour.

Yeah, so how does that make NT giving any "superior" to the love we find among God's people in the OT? You're trying far too hard to impress yourself, TV01. .  far too much. It turns out you're still far too dense to make any sense that would score as fresh point for discussion. Please try again - the lines are still open.

Its on that count that  I have relented this once and address you directly.

Good one! I long expected you'd stop monkeying around in your false pious garb!

As while you have totally discredited yourself and been glaringly exposed thereto - A Pilly word   - having to re-incarnate as Viaro to cover your shame - and unfortunately continue your falsehood

Oh dude - amuse me more. How did I "expose" myself? What? Just because you've been shouting 'pilly! pilly! pilly!' like an idiot with his shorts half done suddenly means viaro = pilgrim.1 = mavenbox (and now 'Traugott'), no? Oh, I get it - if anyone quotes from pilgrim's posts, that person is automatically pilgrim.1, no? You guy's are class when it comes to displaying such empty skulls. Well done.

I wish you well and can still remember that your presence and contributions were in many regards a blessing to many. Why reduce youself to adding only nuisance value?I have long harboured deep suspicions about your motivation and spiritual provenance. Please prove me wrong.

Oh please, amuse me more!  Why would I take honour that is not mine? Is that a nigerian thing?? Sorry, dude. . I empathise with you on your hearthrob. If I were you, I would not have been shouting 'Pilly! Pilly! Pilly!' all over the place - rather, I would have taken her contact address long before now. You have a very twisted matrix for your hypocrisy, though. .  so I don't expect you'd have been smart enough to think like a grown-up. But you know just what to do in simple issues like this, rather than the laughable theory of trying to turn me into pilgrim into mavenbox into now Traugott!

Now, has anyone figured out the alias "Traugott", or do I have to do everything around here  !

Oh, now viaro = Traugott? [size=14pt]Hahahaha!![/size] Tv01, if ever I came across a twerp, you claim the award hands down!

Enigma:

Well spotted! True to God I was still coming round to that. Another view that I'm coming round to is that we may be dealing with a pathological/medical case --- things like bipolar etc. (Edit: I have to admit that the Traugott one is one of the cleverer ones!)

[size=14pt]Hahahahaha!![/size]

You guys have a very interesting theory, you know? Wait, let me guess: according to these developments, your theory leads you to believe that -

viaro = pilgrim.1 = mavenbox = Traugott??

Oh boy! [size=14pt]Hahahahaha!![/size] Fascinating!

BTW, what do you guys smoke for leisure? No, honest, guys. . . what brand of harshish have you been peddling around? You're absolutely free to smoke any brand not in the books, but please let us know when to help!

Viaro bro, Let's refrain from calling a creation of God a "twerp", thank you.


TrauGott/trustGod, Never write God's name with a small g, for someone who came in this month, you sure seem to know a lot of NL history, I am wondering if you studied that in SS1 or Math class , To each his own, you should be able to MAN up and remain who you really are!

ogajim:

Viaro bro, Let's refrain from calling a creation of God a "twerp", thank you.

I would very much like to refrain from such - as long as you guys would make up your minds to stop making unnecessary comments that draw such from me. Should I apologise for all the ones I used in the past? I do - my apologies. Cheers.

The poster is ignorantly walking in unbelief. Very ungodly of a supposed Christian(believer).

Why does argument on tithes bring out the fighters in xtians?

Viaro I can only laugh when I remember our first encounter and some of your first posts on NL.

I guess you've been initiated. . Welcome to NL bro/sis/?

[size=18pt]WHY MUST ALL THREADS ON NL DEGENERATE INTO A SLANGING MATCH? THIS ISSUE HAS BEEN OVER-FLOGGED: THE POSTER HAS RECIEVED THE ADVICE HE NEEDS - CAN YOU ALL KINDLY MOVE ON ?[/size][/size]

@traugott and Viaro - i respected you guys so much - particularly traugott - i'm really dissapointed

Tudór:

Viaro I can only laugh when I remember our first encounter and some of your first posts on NL.

I guess you've been initiated. . Welcome to NL bro/sis/?

Hehehe . . you should have warned me so that I would've walked with caution and not have had to pass through the eye of a needle to get initiated!

Anyhow, how are you doing these days?

woye77:

@traugott and Viaro - i respected you guys so much - particularly traugott - i'm really dissapointed

@woye77, please and please, I apologise. I don't think Traugott has any blame in this. The whole thing should be blamed on viaro - I take it responsibly and don't wish someone else to be blamed for the unfortunate role I played in this thread. Much respects.

Tudór:

Why does argument on tithes bring out the fighters in xtians?

Becos there are so many wolves in sheeps clothing [which our lord Jesus christ warned us about] parading themselves as menof God. Some of us have decided to stand up for the faith and share the undiluted trtuhs with our brethen. Unfortunately this topic has to do with a major source of filthy lucreamongst those who claim to serve God and they are not ready to give up this lucrative source of illicit gain so they nd their disciple fight us with all they have got instead of searching the scriptures to see what it really says. I am not suprised so many people are being deceived cos Jesus warned us that even the very elect God's chosen ones would almost be deceved how much less the thoroughly brainwashed lost sheep that form the congregation of most of these false churches.

Woye77, I dont understand you o. I have probably been the least violent active poster, maybe even a pacifist, on this thread. But I apologize on behalf of me & my friend viaro, we are each passionate about what we believe in. God bless you.

Enigma and those saying I am viaro, it should be instructively easy to tell our differences. But if you insist, enjoy yourselves. If you think I have MPD, consider that i have never been beyond Nigeria's shores and my pal Viaro has earlier on in the thread truthfully said he's not in Nigeria at the moment! So if we are friends and we have the same heart on matters, it means we're the same? Im sure similar things we're said of David and Jonathan in the Bible.

Ogajim: How would you spell Iyanuoluwa? Is it IyanuOluwa? Or is is the name OgeChukwu spelled that way? God is not bothered by the lexis of human nomenclature and improper capitalization of proper names, I believe. So I wont twist my name unless he tells me to. My name is Traugott and that is how it is spelt. I have trusting faith in God, and that's what Im about.

Viaro: hold your peace, jare baba. Nothin' do you.

As for my knowledge of Nairalanders, I have been coming to NL for years (Seun Osewa is a friend to a friend, and to my elder brother) since its inception but I just registered as Traugott in January or so. So I know people, many of whom don't know me. Its not advanced calculus.

Traugott:

Viaro: hold your peace, jare baba. Nothin' do you.

Haha. . I will email you later (and maybe both pilgrim.1 and mavebox and mabell would join us too, hahahaha!! )

viaro:

Haha. . I will email you later (and maybe both pilgrim.1 and mavebox and mabell would join us too, hahahaha!! )

Viaro no one has claimed on this thread that you are any other person apart from Pilgrim.1 so stop using diversionary tactics. And you are definitely not mavenbox as she is much toodecent to be viaro, neither are you mabell who is a silly illerate child that attends that wrecthecd institution that called CEC plc. Mabell is way to shallow in her posts and is definitely a baby unlike you who is well schooled in the art of manipulation, deception and ochestrated lies.

KunleOshob:

Viaro no one has claimed on this thread that you are any other person apart from Pilgrim.1 so stop using diversionary tactics. And you are definitely not mavenbox as she is much toodecent to be viaro, neither are you mabell who is a silly illerate child that attends that wrecthecd institution that called CEC plc. Mabell is way to shallow in her posts and is definitely a baby unlike you who is well schooled in the art of manipulation, deception and ochestrated lies.

There's no need to jump in the middle of what your fellows have been falling all over themselves to quote and misquote. No, I'm not the "wife" you miss and both you and TV01 could be sympathised with. . after all your theories, this is what you have reduced yourselves to. And yea, you've been the BOSS of anti-tithing liars on Nairanland, and I'm not competing that title with you. You may use all kinds of caustic language on mabell because she saw the same inconsistencies and lies spewing out of you non-stop, that is why you're still nursing bruises from your lying career when others have moved on.

##Peeping in on another snow day

traugott, suit your self and I've got other stuff to think about now than worry if you're a scam or not, independent thinking is refreshing if you ask me, I don't keep pets and really don't know how that works.At the end of the day, if we are happy with our choices, fine because Salvation is an individual enterprise between God and man ", on the Judgment day, no partiality, "

=>  Maybe I'll make a snowman and name him viaro

ogajim:

=> Maybe I'll make a snowman and name him viaro

That'll be fun!

Ogajim: Independent thinking? Pets? Be assured I have no pets either, have never believed in serfdom, and have never participated in it.

Viaro: sorry I said all the above, and Im thankful I didnt even say more in a bid to elucidate matters. Ogajim and KunleOshob's responses show that it was an arrant waste of efforts.