What is tithe? Who should pay tithe? If you obtain your wealth illegally do you pay tithe on it?

Tithe is giving one tenth of what u have.
the genesis of tithing was Abramham giving tithe unto Melchizedik, priest of the most high God. God by purpose, design the tribe of levi to collect tithe of his brothers. Tithing was on tro-out the old testement until malachi God reprimand Isreal for denying Him of tithe.
Now tithing is the most controversial topic in christiandom. And people that propose tithe in church cannot hold a new testement example of the paying of tithe.
On my part, time will not permit a complete exegesis on tithing. but to be precise, in the new testement the doctrine of giving have taken over tithing based on these points.
1.  when Abramhan gave tithe, there was no temple and Melchizedik manifested as a type of christ.
2.  God instituted tithe for Isrealites at the constitution of the temple/place of gathering then called tabernacle in a gradual unfolding manner.
3.  Christ did  not pay tithe but taught on the weightier things of the law. knowing that the current tabernacle will soon be a past.
4.  the apostle took it further on the doctrine of giving and still base on "a willing heart" as God did He first ask isreal of an offering-Exo 25.
5.  every giving is to God, if u believe that tithe must be,then be convinced and know that your tithing is within the doctrine of giving and is still guided by "a willing heart or that purposed in the heart". thus making it a personal convenant.

this topic has been covered at least twice already. but it's all summed up in this. you do not have to give 10% of your income to the church on a monthly basis.

Hebrews 7

This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace."

Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.

Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder!

Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, their brothers—even though their brothers are descended from Abraham.

This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. And without doubt the lesser person is blessed by the greater.

In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.


If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.

He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.

For it is declared:
"You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek."

The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

"The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
'You are a priest forever.' "

Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.

Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people.

He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Hebrews 8: 6-8
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


GIVE WITH A CHEERFUL HEART WHATEVER YOU CAN! NOT 10%

I'm so sorry for those who ALWAYS have to tie TITHES to the Law. That way, it's easier to argue AGAINST tithes because it usually boils down to the idea that since the Law is done away with, then TITHES are done away with as well.

What amazes me, however, is that people often fail to understand that TITHES predated the LAW!! The Law cannot nullify what it did not originate! And that is why people should rather ask God to show them WHAT prompted Abraham to give tithes WITHOUT the slightest hint of any LAW or COMMANDMENTS!

If you don't believe in tithes, no worries. But that should not be reason enough to castigate those who tithe, or disparage pastors and call them thieves and all sorts of despicable names! Those who castigate others are unwittingly displaying a haughty and rebellious spirit against the WORD.

The simple thing to do is seek to understand the core issues about tithing. If at the end of the day it is not clear, then no reason to call others names and all sorts. . or even go as far as denouncing it. I just simply would like to see where in the WORD God asked anyone to denounce tithing the way some of us are prone to do.

pilgrim.1:

I'm so sorry for those who ALWAYS have to tie TITHES to the Law. That way, it's easier to argue AGAINST tithes because it usually boils down to the idea that since the Law is done away with, then TITHES are done away with as well.

At least on the point, it is evident that NTC do not have to tithe on that basis. Any other basis can be discussed on it's biblical merits

pilgrim.1:

What amazes me, however, is that people often fail to understand that TITHES predated the LAW!! The Law cannot nullify what it did not originate! And that is why people should rather ask God to show them WHAT prompted Abraham to give tithes WITHOUT the slightest hint of any LAW or COMMANDMENTS!

Tithes predate Abraham, the Hebrews and the Israelites, so what? Circumcision also pre-dates the law. Again, so what? If you know of Abraham giving a tithe as a response to a prompt by God - which is relevent for NTC - pray tell.

pilgrim.1:

If you don't believe in tithes, no worries. But that should not be reason enough to castigate those who tithe, or disparage pastors and call them thieves and all sorts of despicable names! Those who castigate others are unwittingly displaying a haughty and rebellious spirit against the WORD.

Nobody is discussing this personally. Only the biblical basis - or lack thereoff - for it. Nobody is castigating those who do it, or disparaging those who teach it. But if one teaches tithing, one should be prepared to be questioned and to defend their position, as with any doctrine.
And presumably calling people haughty and rebellious is not to castigate or disparage?

pilgrim.1:

The simple thing to do is seek to understand the core issues about tithing. If at the end of the day it is not clear, then no reason to call others names and all sorts. . or even go as far as denouncing it. I just simply would like to see where in the WORD God asked anyone to denounce tithing the way some of us are prone to do.

You that understand, pray share. If it is not clear to us - by your reckoning - please be a vessel for our enlightening. I denouce it on the basis of the law and can find no other basis except at best a personal thing. And although I would personally consider it somewhat immature, would not rail against individual liberty.

God bless
TV

@TV01,

If you have anything to share, I expected you could have done that. If you had nothing to offer, and would rather make a career of denoucing what is in the WORD, I only ask you to offer me the ONE VERSE where God has so commissioned you to do so.

I've said this again and again - if you don't believe in tithes, no worries. If you can't offer simple answers to the simple questions I offered you in the other thread, save whatever else is left of your emptiness. If neither suggestions appeal to you, please be my guest and go on trying to prove it is your birthright to denounce it without a mandate to do so.

Whatever else makes you restless will be served according as you invite.

pilgrim.1:

@TV01,

If you have anything to share, I expected you could have done that. If you had nothing to offer, and would rather make a career of denoucing what is in the WORD, I only ask you to offer me the ONE VERSE where God has so commissioned you to do so.

I've said this again and again - if you don't believe in tithes, no worries. If you can't offer simple answers to the simple questions I offered you in the other thread, save whatever else is left of your emptiness. If neither suggestions appeal to you, please be my guest and go on trying to prove it is your birthright to denounce it without a mandate to do so.

Whatever else makes you restless will be served according as you invite.

I have shared at length, plainly stated my position and been willing to answer any questions posed. And I am more than happy to admit errors or stand corrected in part or in whole on any point in the discussion.

I have not denounced what is in the word, I have denounced the propagation of things not in the word as a means to bind and exploit the unknowing.

I notice your continued co-opting of scriptures that speak solely to freewill giving to mean "tithe & offering" and then building whole treatises around your untruths.

I am confident that Enigma will see through you or see you off in the "Essence of tithing " thread, so I haven't bothered to post, I'm just following, but your gall in misappropriating scripture purely to sustain the unsustainable still amazes me.

So once again. No one can teach tithing by law or according to the law or under law from the OT and make it binding on NT Christians.

It's at best a purely incidental and personal observation.

Anyone can see you have a vested traditional/denominational interest in maintaining the status quo of the totally false "professional/salaried clergy" abomination. So far you have declined to 'fess up. No need. It reeks to high heavens, and would be clear to a blind man in a mudslide.

God bless
TV

TV01:

I have shared at length, plainly stated my position and been willing to answer any questions posed. And I am more than happy to admit errors or stand corrected in part or in whole on any point in the discussion.

I hope so.

TV01:

I have not denounced what is in the word, I have denounced the propagation of things not in the word as a means to bind and exploit the unknowing.

If it is true at all that you have not denounced what is in the WORD, what did you mean by this statement:

"Tithing is law-bound, Christ-denying, faith-void, religiously perverse, thrice-redundant, ritualistic codswallop"?!?

I would rather you simply deal with what is in the WORD, and not make such denunciations and claim you never did!

TV01:

I notice your continued co-opting of scriptures that speak solely to freewill giving to mean "tithe & offering" and then building whole treatises around your untruths.

Where did you read the phrase "freewill giving" in the NT? That you strongly disagree with what I have shared at any point does not mean that I've been advancing untruths. I've also asked that anyone who is persuaded otherwise whouls kindly walk me through those texts and show me HOW, WHY and WHERE they see that I was wrong. If they have not done this, I still have made it clear that I was NOT commissioned to fight anyone for their cherished persuasions. All I asked was that we discussed issues and keep the slobbers and denunciations completely out of the ambits of ur dialogue.

TV01:

I am confident that Enigma will see through you or see you off in the "Essence of tithing " thread, so I haven't bothered to post, I'm just following, but your gall in misappropriating scripture purely to sustain the unsustainable still amazes me.

No problem. I've been answering his questions as I find them in Scripture, and saving my own questions until he prompts me to serve them in rapid succession. However, I haven't yet read him soudly rebutt the answers so far - and if that was gall, the Lord will take care of the rest.

TV01:

So once again. No one can teach tithing by law or according to the law or under law from the OT and make it binding on NT Christians.

You may not want to see what is there; but again and again I've shown clearly that God does not bind, coerce, compel, or force anyone to obey Him in any matter. I also offered that those who would not want to see what is there in the WORD can save themselves any discomfort on the issue and simply do as they so please. They accountable to Him, not to me or anyone else.

TV01:

It's at best a purely incidental and personal observation.

And I respect that.

TV01:

Anyone can see you have a vested traditional/denominational interest in maintaining the status quo of the totally false "professional/salaried clergy" abomination. So far you have declined to 'fess up. No need. It reeks to high heavens, and would be clear to a blind man in a mudslide.

I don't see where I've offered a denominational position on anything I said. If what I offered are clearly flawed, I suppose you could easily have shown precisely HOW, WHY and WHERE so instead of vexing it up as an abomination. May I ask where you get God denouncing TITHES as an abomination, besides the earlier "religious perversion" derision?

Cheers.

pilgrim.1:

If it is true at all that you have not denounced what is in the WORD, what did you mean by this statement:

For me to denounce it, it has to be there! The whole point of this thread, to see if it is taught as part of NTC.

TV01:

pilgrim.1 link=topic=39490.msg1398798#msg1398798 date=1187269525:

If it is true at all that you have not denounced what is in the WORD, what did you mean by this statement:

For me to denounce it, it has to be there! The whole point of this thread, to see if it is taught as part of NTC.

Rather than make blank statements or assume 'it has to be there', please show me WHERE God "denounced" TITHING.

SHOW me (and others reading this thread) WHERE God asked YOU to DENOUNCE tithes!

pilgrim.1:

SHOW me (and others reading this thread) WHERE God asked YOU to DENOUNCE tithes!

The Bible exhorts believers to accurately divide the word. The erronous way tithe is often preached in contemporary times is nothing less than bondage and a snare for many simple believers, and should be at once resisted and deconstructed.

The sum of any NTC tithing position/doctrine is this.

At best it's an individual and voluntary exercise. Not binding or incumbent on anyone.

And certainly not an integral part of NT worship.

Your venal efforts to appropriate redundant OT strictures, re-engineer them as NT worship forms and then use them to snare and fleece the flock of God will be met with fierce resistance.

God bless
TV

because u dont belive in it doesnt make it false my dear.

Jesus never took from his congregation. He never passed around a basket or tray to receive pledges and donations at the end of each sermon.

He never asked for a payment. Nor did he ever tell his disciples to accept money for their assistance as found in

Matthew 10:8-10:

“Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.”

simply_me:

because u don't believe in it doesnt make it false my dear.

Because you do doesn't make it true sweetie.

@TV01,

TV01:

The Bible exhorts believers to accurately divide the word. The erronous way tithe is often preached in contemporary times is nothing less than bondage and a snare for many simple believers, and should be at once resisted and deconstructed.

I've been asking you to provide a verse for denouncing TITHES. What you denounced was TITHES, and certainly not "the erronous way tithe is often preached" - whether in contemporary times or otherwise. Here again is your classic denunciation of TITHES (while fancying yourself as "contending for the faith" :

"Tithing is law-bound, Christ-denying, faith-void, religiously perverse, thrice-redundant,  ritualistic codswallop"

You will remember that the one question I've been asking you concerning this is where God denounced tithe or asked you to denounce tithes the way you guys have been doing:

"Now could you be so kind as to proffer a text where God denounces tithes in the NT
the way you and your adulators have been trying to cheat your readers with?"

Yes, I said above "you guys", because even Hnd-holder made such denunciations as well, his being - "I know that only in given that thou can receive. Tithing is stealing by method."

If God asked YOU, TV01 to denounce TITHES, please I want to see the verses where He asked you to do so. If you have NO such verses, then humbly accept the fact that you were displaying a wrong attitude to issues you have not taken the time to understand.

Secondly, when I discussed tithes as found in the NT, I offered to challenge the default view that people hold - which could be summarized in the following way:

a) Jesus condemned TITHES
b) Jesus and the apostles NEVER mentioned anything about TITHES, or even taught anything about TITHES
c) TITHES are irrelevant to Christians ( the abbreviation 'NTC' is verbose and ambiguous)
d) TITHING is "binding" on people. . . blah, blah, blah.

I took time to share that these ideas and attitudes are not helping anyone or even those making such remarks on the subject - especially because they have NOT taken the time to study the subject in the NT. I also made it clear that I wasn't forcing or "binding" anyone to believe in tithes, as I'm not commissioned to fight those who do not believe in it. Further, I offered leading and pointed questions for those who oppose TITHING so that they could reflect a bit more on the subject and seek answers from the WORD of God.

What and How did YOU, TV01 respond to all that? You complain against the very things YOU have often and again done to others - and what does that make of you as a person? In case you'd predictably come back and pretend you've forgotten how you reacted, please visit this link and sample your own attitude:

'And please enough of your spiteful feminine piety. "I'll let that pass". If you don't nko? Like I care.'
(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1024.html#msg1341243).

TITHING is taught in the New Testament. I've been sharing on this and offered answers to every single question that was posed by those who were antagonistic to the subject. I asked nothing more in return than that such antagonists themselves should oblige answers to my questions. Did they do this, including yourself, TV01?

I don't mind the slobbers, aspersions etc. that you quickly resorted to (and could not endure when served back at you) - but that is simply the one thing that ALWAYS comes from those who antagonize others because they themselves have had nothing to share of mutual benefit to themselves and others. After Enigma had several times obstinately refused to answer a simple question I asked on Deut. 14:26, this was the observation I made in my reply to him before the other thread was locked:

'Isn't it funny that those who oppose TITHES have again and again accused others of peddling
"false" teaching; and yet, you guys are the least interested in dialogue and fairness in answering
questions that are offered you? What is so difficult in the simple questions I have asked?'

In response to this dramatic back-slapping that comes from your camp, I've detailed exactly HOW you guys are the very ones who make so much noise and make it your birthright to slur others when you are exposed for your untennable positions. Incase you've not visited the link, please do so now and see here:

(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1184.html#msg1415793)

TV01:

The sum of any NTC tithing position/doctrine is this.

At best it's an individual and voluntary exercise. Not binding or incumbent on anyone.

I've argued repeatedly that God did not "bind" anything on anyone; and to constantly use that as an excuse for your argument is highly disingenous and self-defeating. He rather made it His ordinance (1 Cor. 9:14 - "Even so hath the Lord ordained"; and if you feel that the Lord's ordinance is a heavy burden to you and your folks, you could as well cast it behind you. Nothing in anything that God commands is burdensome or grievious (1 John 5:3). Hence, you could either face up to it; or unburden yourself from your worries to make His word grievious to you.

It is even remarkable that at every point the apostles mentioned the issue of financial giving, they made it clear that they were not seeking to be burdensome to ANYONE! See for yourself:

2 Corinthians 11:9

(ESV) - 'And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came
from Macedonia supplied my need. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way.'

(KJV) - 'And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was
lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself
from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself. '
- - -

2 Corinthians 12:13 & 14

(HNV) - 'For what is there in which you were made inferior to the rest of the assemblies, unless it is that
I myself was not a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong.

'Behold, this is the third time I am ready to come to you, and I will not be a burden to you; for
I seek not your possessions, but you. For the children ought not to save up for the parents, but
the parents for the children.'


(KJV) - 'For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not
burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

'Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for
I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents
for the children. '
- - -

1 Thessalonians 2:5 & 6

(ESV) - 'For we never came with words of flattery, as you know, nor with a pretext for greed--God is
witness. Nor did we seek glory from people, whether from you or from others, though we could
have made demands as apostles of Christ.'

(KJV) - 'For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness;
God is witness: Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might
have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.'

The apostles did not demand or force anything on anyone - not even if you decide to read it simply as "give". There are definitely NT verses both urging and commanding Christians to give of their tithes and offerings (even if you want to read it as "voluntary tithes" or "freewill offering"; but you will not find any verse in the entire Bible setting such ordinances as a matter of "binding" or COERCION, FORCE, COMPULSION, or IMPULSION.

TV01:

And certainly not an integral part of NT worship.

We've been through that point before in the other thread; and my response was:

Hebrews 13:16 - "But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased."

The word "communicate" points to our financial giving. You can check your Bible aids to confirm or deny this.

You're forgetting so soon that at one time when we debated this very point, your statement was:

Yes Miss, giving is part of worship.

If giving is part of worship, and you're so virulently opposed to tithing (even though you acknowledge also that it could be "voluntary tithing", what is the basis of your doublespeak yet again that it is "certainly not an intergral part of NT worship"?!?

This is the kind of doublespeak and duplicity that you're well known for; and that is why I simply laugh when you make so much noise of trying to put up a "fierce resistance" to my posts. I asked you before, what really is the weapon you're wielding to put up such a resistance? Is it by your dishonest caterwauls and confirmed "errors" you're seeking to 'resist' my repostes? You'd definitely need an upgrade to honesty before you could even interest me.

TV01:

Your venal efforts to appropriate redundant OT strictures, re-engineer them as NT worship forms and then use them to snare and fleece the flock of God will be met with fierce resistance.

Your so-called 'resistance' has proved weaker than spider webs. If you're gaming to put up a 'fierce resistance' by your resorting to aspersions, dishonest claims, assertive denials, your confirmed "errors", and the often convoluted doublespeak that has become second nature to you, there'll certainly be nothing much left of you to feed the dogs of Poseidon after an encounter with pilgrim.1 (no threat, just 'observation').

TV01, you can argue your case intelligently (if you care); and if you had answers at all to the questions offered, then you would be confident enough to share with all to read. This attitude of resorting to vitriol and aspersions at others simply because you have nothing to offer is self-defeating, and it does not speak well of you or your adulators who find such aggressive convulsion the easiest thing to do.

For the umpteenth time, be willing to invite honest DISCUSSION, DISCUSSION, DISCUSSION. . . dialogue with others - it's all up to you! But if you're not willing to do that (nor are you capable of doing so), please understand that pilgrim.1, as stated, will NOT tolerate your uncivil/discourteous manners - and certainly NOT your voodoo and duplicity.

pilgrim.1:

TITHING is taught in the New Testament. I've been sharing on this and offered answers to every single question that was posed by those who were antagonistic to the subject. I asked nothing more in return than that such antagonists themselves should oblige answers to my questions. Did they do this, including yourself, TV01?

No Pilgrim.1, tithing is not taught in the NT. Anywhere. It's mentioned as follows;

1. Once (in 2 gospels) when the Lord is castigating those under the law for blindly following the letter (tithe) and missing the spirit.
2. And In Hebrews to signify the superiority of The Melchizedekal High Priesthood overthe Levitical/Aaronic.

No other mention by the Lord or any Apostles.

Giving and only freewill giving is taught in the NT. Don't try and sneakily bundle tithing in with it.

God bless
TV

TV01:

No Pilgrim.1, tithing is not taught in the NT. Anywhere. It's mentioned as follows;

1. Once (in 2 gospels) when the Lord is castigating those under the law for blindly following the letter (tithe) and missing the spirit.
2. And In Hebrews to signify the superiority of The Melchizedekal High Priesthood overthe Levitical/Aaronic.

No other mention by the Lord or any Apostles.

Giving and only freewill giving is taught in the NT. Don't try and sneakily bundle tithing in with it.

Again my comments:

I've been sharing on this and offered answers to every single question that was posed by those who were antagonistic to the subject. I asked nothing more in return than that such antagonists themselves should oblige answers to my questions. Did they do this, including yourself, TV01?

pilgrim.1:

I've been sharing on this and offered answers to every single question that was posed [color=#770077]

Only the questions have been mostly posed by yourself in teaser form, contrary answers steamrolled, and your trite traditional positions rammed down our throats. This has been married with absurdly contorted interpretations of Greek/Hebrew, selective use of different versions/transalations and a large dose of self deluded scholastic hubris.

Please show a simple end to end outline/exposition of tithing in the NT and allow the forum to ask questions. One simple post should suffice. Some pointers would be as follows;

1. Where the NT instructs or recommends it
2. How, when and in what form it is to be paid
3. Where it is to be paid
4 To whom it is to be paid
5. How it is to be disposed of

Again, a simple outline will do. You asked for a dare, I dare you to do just that. I expect nothing less than a spurious pointer to Abraham slyly supported by lengthy recourse to Moses. Feel free to shame me. Double dare!

God bless
TV

TV01,

TV01:

Only the questions have been mostly posed by yourself in teaser form, contrary answers steamrolled, and your trite traditional positions rammed down our throats. This has been married with absurdly contorted interpretations of Greek/Hebrew, selective use of different versions/transalations and a large dose of self deluded scholastic hubris.

I posed questions, and since you guys had nothing to offer than your traditional voodoo, I answered them.

Where you made assertive denials, I pointed you to God's WORD. What ave you said about them?

You made denunciations that God did not ask you to make. I've asked that you offer me the verse for such denunciations - where have you done so?

The discussions on the verses I've shared so far - what have you done with them other than deny them, and offered NOTHING alternatively?

I've also asked that if you're not satisfied that my persuasions are precisely what the WORD teaches, please consult the original languages and come tell readers if pilgrim.1 was WRONG in pointing out the exact wording. Have you taken up that challenge?

You see, when you guys continue to be so dishonest because you typically have nothing to share, don't you realize how worse you're making issues for yourself?

TV01, be HONEST - that's ALL I asked of you. If you have no grain of honesty in your system, you don't have to wake up and come to a public place pretending what you're NOT.

TV01:

Please show a simple end to end outline/exposition of tithing in the NT and allow the forum to ask questions. One simple post should suffice. Some pointers would be as follows;

1. Where the NT instructs or recommends it
2. How, when and in what form it is to be paid
3. Where it is to be paid
4 To whom it is to be paid
5. How it is to be disposed of

I've done that severally. Since you guys have the uncanny habit to make denials every so often, I once again outlined my response to Hnd-holder that I've done precisely what you're asking. Go there and see your duplicity in the several links where I referred Hnd-holder to check out the sort of person you are!

TV01:

Again, a simple outline will do.

I gave a simple out - and further explained in DETAIL since you guys were not satisfied.

TV01:

You asked for a dare, I dare you to do just that.

I asked you to dare me to respond in the gutter language you often invite ("I've said once and again: since you can't behave, I'll spare no blows" - that is what I asked you to do: go there and see it! If that's what you're asking for, let me know - and you will get precisely that without charge!

TV01:

I expect nothing less than a spurious pointer to Abraham slyly supported by lengthy recourse to Moses. Feel free to shame me. Double dare!

If you're so ashamed of your games, so be it.

Again my comments:

I've been sharing on this and offered answers to every single question that was posed by those who were antagonistic to the subject. I asked nothing more in return than that such antagonists themselves should oblige answers to my questions. Did they do this, including yourself, TV01?

pilgrim.1:

I've been sharing on this and offered answers to every single question that was posed by those who were antagonistic to the subject. I asked nothing more in return than that such antagonists themselves should oblige answers to my questions. Did they do this, including yourself, TV01?

We can make claims back and forth. Answer all or even 1 of the 5 questions I posed just recently.
Please do so in one succinct and brief post and lets restart the discussion.

I'll even do it on your terms and allow you to vary terms as we proceed, so certain am I of the utter futility of your position.

Again, I expect you to scurry using one of your tried and trusted methods. Again, please feel free to prove me wrong!

I'm right here Miss.

God bless
TV

TV01:

Again, I expect you to scurry using one of your tried and trusted methods. Again, please feel free to prove me wrong!

I've been sharing on this and offered answers to every single question that was posed by those who were antagonistic to the subject. I asked nothing more in return than that such antagonists themselves should oblige answers to my questions. Did they do this, including yourself, TV01?
- - -

If you want a discussion, invite one. If you want to keep demonstrating your duplicity, as well do so. Why you scurried away from the other thread where you were mildly exposed for who you truly are at heart, and then come here pretending to hold a white flag, is not going to interest me one bit - not UNTIL you upgrade your attitude to honest dealings.

I've answered every single question you and your gang offered. What have YOU done with the questions I offered?

Has anyon ver considered this scripture very well.

TV, you quoted it in passing.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Christ said emphatically, this YOU OUGHT TO HAVE DONE WITHOUT LEAVING THE OTHER UNDONE. In other words, pay tithes and also observe the law, mercy, faith etc. This is certainly an instruction to pay tithes. The modalities however would b another issue altogther hch can very well b xpounded.

cgift:

Matthew 23:23 . . In other words, pay tithes and also observe the law, mercy, faith etc. This is certainly an instruction to pay tithes. The modalities however would b another issue altogther hch can very well b xpounded.

Lol, they don't see it as an instruction to tithe. I was coming to that; but I've decided to hold myself from sharing further at this point, and NOW begin asking my own questions - since they've made it their bírthright to ONLY ask questions and NEVER proffer answers to the queries others present.

However, we are not told to observe the LAW. It was rather "the weightier matters" of the Law that Christ pointed to. I'm waiting to see how they want to disregard what the Lord Jesus said about those matters: "judgment, mercy, and faith".

cgift

I want to give you a few pointers to think about in relation to what you posted.

1. You said "pay" tithes ---- do you notice that Jesus did not say "pay" tithes? Why? Addendum, though question not edited from my original. In that version the passage is in fact rendered as Jesus saying "you pay, "; my apology: However the question I intended was that "pay" in the context did not refer to "money".

2. Rather he said to the Pharisees: "you tithe of mint and anise and cummin , "; what do you understand by mint or anise or cummin? What is their relationship or comparison to money?

3. Do you know that the Pharisees were not disciples of Jesus ==== but rather people who hated Him and were opposed to Him?

4. Do you ever see, hear or read of Jesus telling any of His own disciples or followers to tithe --- let alone to "pay tithes"?

5. Will you be willing to consider that when read in proper context that verse is really saying to the Pharisees: 'you say you observe the law because you tithe of mint, anise and cummin! Yeye/nonsense, is that all there is in the law; are you not supposed to observe the most important aspects of that law and not just tithing of mint, anise and cummin?

6. Do you know that on many occasions Jesus deliberately broke "the law" --- in the process causing apoplexy for the same Pharisees?

7. Do you know that Jesus specifically taught that "the law" was inadequate or imperfect but that some aspects of it was given to the people just because of their own condition?


I wanted to keep this to just questions but I will make one comment: Matthew 23:23 does not reflect Jesus commanding His believers/followers to tithe, let alone to "pay" tithes; rather it reflects Jesus telling His enemies who were under the law to make sure they were even observing that law properly. Finally, don't just believe me or any other opponent of the modern "tithing"; take your time to read up again in context and study the Bible in more detail on the subject of tithing;

cgift:

Has anyon ver considered this scripture very well.

Yes I have.

cgift:

TV, you quoted it in passing.

Yes I did.

cgift:

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Christ said emphatically, this YOU OUGHT TO HAVE DONE WITHOUT LEAVING THE OTHER UNDONE.

Verse in question.

cgift:

This is certainly an instruction to pay tithes.

Indeed it is. But please note as follows;

1. It was described as a matter of the law.
2. It was spoken to those under the law.
3. By the One who fulfilled the law so that those who put their faith in Him don't have too.

As ever, the modalities of expounding scripture is very simple. In any language!

pilgrim.1:

Lol, they don't see it as an instruction to tithe.

Keep misascribing, misjiving and generally exposing your rather poor contextual grasp of scripture. Your own acada na fancy dress !

pilgrim.1:

I was coming to that;

Too late, beat you to it!

pilgrim.1:

NOW begin asking my own questions

Yawn!

pilgrim.1:

since they've made it their bírthright to ONLY ask questions and NEVER proffer answers to the queries others present

Query asked, query expounded, query answered. Presumably you won't hear it under the cacaphony of self you noise abroad.

pilgrim.1:

However, we are not told to observe the LAW. It was rather "the weightier matters" of the Law that Christ pointed to.

Please explain fully - but succinctly if you can - how one does not "observe" the law, whilst being pointed to the "weightier matters of it". _{Pilgrim does the C&C Theology dance !}

pilgrim.1:

I'm waiting to see how they want to disregard what the Lord Jesus said about those matters: "judgment, mercy, and faith".

Don't just falsely ascribe, slanderously prescribe as well. No one has disregarded anything, except the quite sorry man-made religion you've been relentlessly trying to impose. And add another "C" - for compound - to your C&C approach. You'll undoubtedly fail to answer my prevoious question. But kindly explain to the board how "Judgement, mercy and faith" are matters of law.

God bless
TV

TV01:

Keep misascribing, misjiving and generally exposing your rather poor contextual grasp of scripture. Your own acada na fancy dress !

Better than you voodoo, eh?

TV01:

Too late, beat you to it!

And you hope that puts paid to it? Boy, you're still in need for another psychaitric session.

TV01:

Query asked, query expounded, query answered. Presumably you won't hear it under the cacaphony of self you noise abroad.

I know - because your noise ended in the other thread where your "true" Kodak colour came to light!

TV01:

Please explain fully - but succinctly if you can - how one does not "observe" the law, whilst being pointed to the "weightier matters of it".

Please, don't pretend that I've not explained this issue BEFORE - go there and see! This is what you guys are known for - PRETEND you never saw the posts others have made discussing an issue - only to scoot off to another thread and repeat yourselves endlessly!!

TV01:

Pilgrim does the C&C Theology dance !

I've asked if you want to invite a discussion or you'd rather continue to be swathed in your bandages after each encounter with pilgrim.1.

TV01:

Don't just falsely ascribe, slanderously prescribe as well.

And what have you been doing all the time I WARNED you severally to save your uncivil manners and instead invite a discussion? You never cry - buy a towel, because I haven't even started landing the blows!

TV01:

No one has disregarded anything, except the quite sorry man-made religion you've been relentlessly trying to impose.

With your overblown spirituality, you still could NOT offer simple answers to the questions I offered; and you sneak in here to snivel as usual, not so?

TV01:

And add another "C" - for compound - to your C&C approach. You'll undoubtedly fail to answer my prevoious question.

There are answers - I answered every single one of them - and I gave links to direct you to the pages for the same answers: the same links you have deserted and are now coming here to display your hypocrisy.

TV01:

But kindly explain to the board how "Judgement, mercy and faith" are matters of law.

I've discussed the principles of HOW "the Law" was applied by the apostles in the NT. Go there and see it, if your hypocrisy would let you bear the weight of your shame.

Pilgrim.1,

How far? Hope you've cooled down somewhat? Take it easy my dear, gurning belligerence although highly beloved by a certain type of person, does not actually prove anything. Now to work .

pilgrim.1:

I've discussed the principles of HOW "the Law" was applied by the apostles in the NT. Go there and see it, if your hypocrisy would let you bear the weight of your shame.

For completeness sake, I wnt back and reread your torrent of incontinent prose - I use the word prose liberally - and have this to say in response to your quote below;

(b) Its application in the NT furnishes us with the following:
      * specific commandments
      * prophecies
      * exhortations
      * divine principles

All these matters are found in "the LAW" - and the apostles in the NT specifically referred to them as applicable to the Christian life and faith, and did not give the slightest hint that they had become REDUNDANT as if to throw them wholesale in the bin as you're advocating!!

Leaving aside the middle two for now, pray tell;

1. What the specific commandment in the law (any part of it) apply to Christians
2. What exactly are the "divine principles" you mentioned

Especially in light of this;

John 1:17 - For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Does that mean that the law (or that part that did not come through Moses?) and the prophets (and the psalms, the history and the prophecies and exhortations), where not fulfilled by the advent and work of the Lord?

John 1:45 - Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph

Are you saying that the the Law which you so needlessly (as with giving) went to great lengths to delineate, classify, graduate and systemise, was continued after the first coming of the Lord, be that in part or in whole?

Does the verse from John 1 not open up a whole world of meaning to you?

Tell us more about these "divine principle", especially in light of the "continuing" applicability of the law.

Presumably they have been codified? And would that be in a succinct way that we could all see and understand, or would only yourself and a few other cogniscenti be wise and knowledgeable to decipher? Care to share with us lowlifes and dank unlearned please?

pilgrim.1:

I've asked if you want to invite a discussion or you'd rather continue to be swathed in your bandages after each encounter with pilgrim.1.

Is that a threat or a promise sweetie !

pilgrim.1:
And what have you been doing all the time I WARNED you severally to save your uncivil manners and instead invite a discussion? You never cry - buy a towel, because I haven't even started landing the blows!

We have a tough nut, a fighter! My heart fails me, my bones turn to jelly!

pilgrim.1:

I've discussed the principles of HOW "the Law" was applied by the apostles in the NT. Go there and see it, if your hypocrisy would let you bear the weight of your shame.

Just answer briefly. How is Faith a matter of Law!

God bless
TV

_{Abeg Pilly, don't kick sand in my face 0! I'll be the laughing stock of the Nairaland beach !}

Enigma:

5. Will you be willing to consider that when read in proper context that verse is really saying to the Pharisees: 'you say you observe the law because you tithe of mint, anise and cummin! Yeye/nonsense, is that all there is in the law; are you not supposed to observe the most important aspects of that law and not just tithing of mint, anise and cummin?

What is the "proper context" you have indicated by that analogy?

    Matt. 23:23

   "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin,
    and

    ^(A)have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith:

    ^(B)these ought ye to have done,

    ^(C)and not to leave the other undone."


[list]
[li]WHAT did Jesus ask them to observe? ("these ought ye to have done"[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]and what OTHER thing was He asking them to not leave UNDONE? ("and not to leave the other undone"[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]If Jesus spoke of the one, was He intending to overthrow the other?[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]WHERE specifically did Jesus make Matthew 23:23 REDUNDANT?[/li]
[/list]

Enigma:

6. Do you know that on many occasions Jesus deliberately broke "the law" --- in the process causing apoplexy for the same Pharisees?

Could you share on those "MANY" occasions that you said Jesus broke "the law"?

Enigma:

7. Do you know that Jesus specifically taught that "the law" was inadequate or imperfect but that some aspects of it was given to the people just because of their own condition?

I have a few in mind. Do you care to share?

Enigma:

I wanted to keep this to just questions but I will make one comment: Matthew 23:23 does not reflect Jesus commanding His believers/followers to tithe, let alone to "pay" tithes; rather it reflects Jesus telling His enemies who were under the law to make sure they were even observing that law properly. Finally, don't just believe me or any other opponent of the modern "tithing"; take your time to read up again in context and study the Bible in more detail on the subject of tithing

In other words, Matt. 23:23 was does not reflect Jesus commanding His believers/followers to observe the elements of the Law that he spoke about in that verse - "judgment, mercy, and faith"?!?

Enigma:

1. You said "pay" tithes ---- do you notice that Jesus did not say "pay" tithes? Why? Addendum, though question not edited from my original. In that version the passage is in fact rendered as Jesus saying "you pay, "; my apology: However the question I intended was that "pay" in the context did not refer to "money".

The inclusion or omission of "pay" wouldn't have changed what Christ meant in that verse.  Some other translations do not even have "pay", so that's off the mark for now.

I'll like to know though, what your persuasion really is on this matter.  Are you just against monetary tithing, or are you against tithing in general?  If it's the latter, then I expect that you should see the contradiction in your own persuasion, as Christ Himself acknowledged paying of tithes as essential.  He however only condemned the hypocritical attitude of the pharisees for using their tithing activity as a cover for righteousness and also their over-emphasis on it, at the expense of other weightier provisions of the law.

Enigma:

2. Rather he said to the Pharisees: "you tithe of mint and anise and cummin , "; what do you understand by mint or anise or cummin? What is their relationship or comparison to money?

In the context of tithing, they both indicate "increase".

Enigma:

3. Do you know that the Pharisees were not disciples of Jesus ==== but rather people who hated Him and were opposed to Him?

Yeah. . . so?

Enigma:

4. Do you ever see, hear or read of Jesus telling any of His own disciples or followers to tithe --- let alone to "pay tithes"?

No. . . and?

Enigma:

5. Will you be willing to consider that when read in proper context that verse is really saying to the Pharisees: 'you say you observe the law because you tithe of mint, anise and cummin! Yeye/nonsense, is that all there is in the law; are you not supposed to observe the most important aspects of that law and not just tithing of mint, anise and cummin?

I wouldn't paraphrase Jesus's statement that way if I were you.  But I'm glad you acknowledge the fact that Jesus did not denounce tithing, though you got it quite wrongly in assuming that tithing is "just tithing".  In the meantime, allow me to quickly remind you that Jesus ended that statement with this:

      "these ought ye to have done, and NOT to leave the other undone"

Enigma:

6. Do you know that on many occasions Jesus deliberately broke "the law" --- in the process causing apoplexy for the same Pharisees?

Enigma, whatever you're driving at here remains enigmatic to me at the moment.  But I surely will never forget the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:17.

Enigma:

I wanted to keep this to just questions but I will make one comment: Matthew 23:23 does not reflect Jesus commanding His believers/followers to tithe, let alone to "pay" tithes; rather it reflects Jesus telling His enemies who were under the law to make sure they were even observing that law properly.

Isn't this rather too much of a contradiction, even to your own readership?  Agreed, Jesus wasn't outrightly commanding anyone to tithe in that particular verse.  But a diligent scrutiny reveals that He acknowledged tithing as an essential practice, hence, His injunction that we should not do one thing, and leave the other undone.  Why do you think He would not support tithing, while at the same time, tell "His enemies" to "make sure they were observing that law properly"?

Enigma:

Finally, don't just believe me or any other opponent of the modern "tithing"; take your time to read up again in context and study the Bible in more detail on the subject of tithing;

Good admonition.  But it would be very beneficial if you took your own advice as well.

Cheers!