babs787:

@buluti

Nobody is hiding anything from you, you are free to purchase the Quran and read anything you feel like reading there.

Its a free world , you are entitled to your opinion. I have given you room to ask any question you feel like but it seems you have nothing to ask, thereby resorting to the statement that someone doesnt have the ability.

I have told you on the issue of the desecration of the Quran, the verse is not in the Quran but if you think that its there as you have labelled us (muslims) liar with regards to the issue of desecration of the Holy Quran, provide it and we it up from there .

You have just started and you have been labelling me as not up to the task for your question(s). I have replied your post on the desecration and I don't know what you are driving at again. So if you think that no muslims can answer you, too bad.

But as we try explaining the issue of desecration, I will want you to prepare for me an answer to this question: "For what purpose will a 'sane' christian wants to desecrate the Quran. I decide to ask the question because of your response to brother Belloti.

So if you have questions for me, you are welcome and if not, no problem then.


As for the issue of crucifixion, its not leading anywhere, I am just trying to learn as you yourself and some christians here have been asking muslims questions and if you think that there is no need asking questions then I will move away to Islamic thread.




#The acts of you guys in here tells a lot about Islam to the reader, i hope you know. If i were not a christain the attempts by the christains to take on issues and even argue within themselves on issues would tell me much of the faith, that it is one that allows for your own individual development and growth, the responses from muslims have been so stereo typed that i really wonder why fear in the religion is so deep.

Am beginning to get my answers anyway and understand the fundamentalist reasoning pattern, if the liberals can be this scared of "not wanting to sin" i know what to expect from the fundamentalist.#


Be specific. Tell me where you are going because you christians fel that you are the professors and that no muslims' response can satisfy you.

How can one purchase a koran when he does not read Arabic since the translation of the koran in any other language makes it lose it's meaning?

babs787:

Nobody is hiding anything from you, you are free to purchase the Quran and read anything you feel like reading there.

You forgot to remind him that handling of the quran is forbidden to non-muslims, that the price of "mishandling" the quran is death and that in order to make any sense of the quran he is required to learn arabic before he can attempt the laborious task of trying to make sense of allah's incoherent book of fairy tales.

David
are u a christain?

Yes, why do you ask?

just wondering. i am learning alot about ppl on NL thats all

ah ok. I was wondering what made you ask such a question. Have i been sounding like a muslim?

no

ricadelide:

Yes, apart from the Bible and some later date Christian apologetic writings, there are no records of Jesus' supposed crucifiction. All references to the life and deeds of the historical Christ are very mirky historiography.

uhmn, sorry, if there are records only in the bible and other apologetic books, does that disqualify it from being a historical event simply because other books didnt record it?

Not by itself, no, but given what is known about the authorship of the Bible (e.g. none of the authors was a contemporary to Jesus) and the fact that there isn't a single non-Christian author mentioning Jesus' ministry, not to speak of the fact that Jesus as a historical character has a uncanningly clear resemblance to many other mythological heroes in other cultures of that era, makes one wonder. If you add to that the disputes within the early church on the nature of Christ and how all of that fits within the tension between the Greek gnostic traditions and Judaism, you'd understand that I wouldn't wage any bets on the historicity of Jesus.

ricadelide:

has everybody in history been documented by history books?

That's irrelevant. There is as much historical evidence for the historicity of Hercules and Achyles as there is of Jesus. Why then doesn't anyone assume that those Greek Homeric characters were real historic figures?

ricadelide:

lets even narrow it; have all crucifixions in history been recorded?

In Roman traditions, crucifixion was a punishment reserved for criminals that were dangerous to the state. Jesus doesn't fit that pattern and neither does his trial before the Sanhedrin fit Jewish law and customs. this alone makes it a very unlikely event that - if true - should be supported by other independent evidence, which clearly isn't the case. If you still claim that Jesus was a historical figure without a shadow of a doubt, your motivations are not rational ones.

ricadelide:

if you don't find mention of christ's death in certain books you are more inclined to believe does that change anything? i am more likely to believe the Bible because it has been through the most scrutiny through the ages and has held through. isnt that enough?

The Bible has been so thoroughly debunked as a historical record that it's not even worth debating. Could you please define what held through means in this context, because it's meaning definitely escapes me.

ricadelide:

The bible is clear that the romans and the jews tried to submerge information about christ's death (and ressurection). doesn't that suffice to explain your statement.

And God planted all the evidence for evolution to confuse mankind. Or was it Satan that did that?
What about submerging information about his very existence? I don't see the Bible making any claims about that. Only if you already presuppose the existence of Jesus as a historical figure does your line of reasoning hold. Quod non.

ricadelide:

and besides, josephus (a noted jewish historian) has references to Jesus, i don't know if he talked about his crucifixion though but that is inconsequential.

Josephus mentioning Jesus is a known insertion by a Christian copyist. Very convenient that all remaining copies of Josephus are of a later date, out of Christian libraries.