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Pastors Manage Churches Better Than Government Manged The Country - Politics (2) - Nairaland

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Re: Pastors Manage Churches Better Than Government Manged The Country by Nobody: 5:40pm On Dec 20, 2017
Obi1kenobi:


This really had nothing to do with my claims. There's nothing you've said that I didn't comprehend. You on the other hand went off on a tangent rambling about who operates more orphanages, showing you had comprehension issues with my own statement. My simple claim was that Muslim clerics do not solicit money anywhere near as much as Christian counterparts do. Read it again and let it percolate this time.

And giving is compelled, especially in many Pentecostal churches. This is one of the fundamentally dishonest arguments a lot of you put up. You simply create strawman distortions that basically imply that as long as no one has a gun pointed at you, that you are not compelled to give. That is a silly and childish argument. I've spent a good amount of my time as a Pentecostal since my conversion in first year of University and I have seen a hell of a lot of schemes devised to manipulate the flock into compliance. Schemes devised to emotionally manipulate (with selective scripture quoting and associated threats of doom) and shame and ostracize.



That's your personal prerogative. I know many Christians who aren't "okay" with it, but such is their long indoctrination and emotional manipulation and dread of "touching the Lord's anointed", they dare not stand by their convictions. They "leave it for God to judge".

Who was arguing about how many branches Living Faith or Redeemed have? Islam is structured differently which is why profiteering in the manner of modern Pentecostals is abhorrent to them. You actually have Pentecostal churches where branches that don't meet up with certain targets in the repatriation of funds to the headquarters have Pastors demoted, re-assigned or removed: basically operating like bank branches grin.
What a shame for the salvation message of Christ.

And hell no.......the Sultan of Sokoto doesn't live in more opulence than Adeboye or Oyedepo.
I insist that Giving is optional. For you to prove that giving is compulsory then you have to prove that membership is predicated on giving. I saw quite a handful of persons who chose to pass the offering basket without dropping anything during shiloh. I did that too sometimes when I didn't have change and no official is ever going to approach you for that. When they chose to do their Shiloh sacrifice I actually didn't partake and no one approached me.

True many pastors talk about tithing and giving but it is usually from the Blessedness point of view. And I don't blame them, Living Faith alone has about 12,000 pastors across the globe that must be paid from proceeds of Tithings and Offerings. RCCG has over 32,000 branches globally across the globe so I assume they have more pastors to pay than LFC. These pastors must directly feed from the givings of members.

Christianity is an evangelistic faith that constantly seeks expansion. And expansion can only happen when members are committed financially. The reason why LFC can expand from a church of three people to a church of over a million is simply because some members are paying their fair share.

I would seriously advise you to take a trip to most of these large Christian conventions and take note of your reservations. You may be surprised that things aren't exactly as you claim.

As a committed christian I have my reservations concerning certain things but I understand no human is perfect and I know that the church of God is an ever evolving institution which self corrects over time. I can only help to correct the errors God leads me to do.

As for ppl who are not happy about the wealth of the pastor in thwir. They should simply go to a place where they are more comfortable with the wealth of the pastor in charge.

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Re: Pastors Manage Churches Better Than Government Manged The Country by Nobody: 6:20pm On Dec 20, 2017
Obi1kenobi:


Which private jet does Harvard's president use? What of the other non-profit organizations I named - which private jet do they use? Oyedepo's jet belongs to him. Stop deluding yourself. No one else decides who rides and who doesn't and his son will certainly inherit his holdings.

It's funny you think Joel Osteen, seen as representing much of what is wrong with the modern perversion of the faith somehow proves your point. He's seen by much of the American public as another conman televangelist. No surprise many of these are the heroes of Nigerian Pentecostals. Any church where custodianship is passed on as some kind of birthright within the family is a den of conmen. America of course is the land where pastors are allowed to be con men. The Europeans are less tolerant of profiteering pastors - a major reason the likes of Oyedepo and Ashimolowo have gotten in trouble with the UK authorities before.
Lol OK lemme start

Oyedepo isn't into any trouble because the result of the inquiry by the British commission led to his exoneration. After the enquiry They also said that the living faith church should be a model for other charities in the United Kingdom.

I don't know about ashimolowo but I guess if he isn't in prison or on the run it must be for a reason.

I am not Joel Osteen's God hence I won't judge him. However he took over the Lakewood church with just 90 members. Hence it isn't as if the church was a cash spinning one when he took over.

The "Europeans are less tolerant of profiteering pastors" is such a funny remark lol. You give the Europeans too much credit, if they could be tolerant of Sword wielding islamist they could be tolerant of anything grin Not that Pentecostalism is Profiteering tho. Europe is essentially a Continent of Orthodox Christianity-Pentecostalism just doesn't have its root there. But don't make that into anything special, Europeans are way more gullibe than the typical American or African.

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Re: Pastors Manage Churches Better Than Government Manged The Country by Nobody: 6:35pm On Dec 20, 2017
Obi1kenobi:


Which private jet does Harvard's president use? What of the other non-profit organizations I named - which private jet do they use? Oyedepo's jet belongs to him. Stop deluding yourself. No one else decides who rides and who doesn't and his son will certainly inherit his holdings.

It's funny you think Joel Osteen, seen as representing much of what is wrong with the modern perversion of the faith somehow proves your point. He's seen by much of the American public as another conman televangelist. No surprise many of these are the heroes of Nigerian Pentecostals. Any church where custodianship is passed on as some kind of birthright within the family is a den of conmen. America of course is the land where pastors are allowed to be con men. The Europeans are less tolerant of profiteering pastors - a major reason the likes of Oyedepo and Ashimolowo have gotten in trouble with the UK authorities before.
Also, the jets aren't for Oyedepo or registered in his name. All the jets and universities are all registered under World Missions Agency which is the mission arm of the living faith church. I don't know how the jets in MMIA are administered but the one in Abuja is used by the VP, Bishop Abioye. So it would interest you to know that Oyedepo doesn't ride all of the jets.

Harvard president/management use private jets. Red Cross as an organization also uses planes for some of its operations. The last red cross mission in Sanaa Yemen saw the use of a plane to deliver materials. I know you would want to draw comparisons so let me assure you that living faith jets aren't for flying anyone to Bahamas or Prague for a shopping spree. They are usually used to convey top leadership of the church on mission work across the globe.

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Re: Pastors Manage Churches Better Than Government Manged The Country by hglmkope(f): 8:26am On Dec 21, 2017
Hello dear!

I follow most of your post and I find them very interesting. I have a connection to Winners and I understand your stand towards the church. The truth is not everyone would see from our point of view except they are willing to be open-minded and understand how these churches work.
I worship freely on any church where the undiluted word of God is preached because personally i see no sense in going so far to worship in a particular church when there are several close by and I can say that from my little experience that no one compels you to give in winners. I have lost count of the number of times I went for their services and I still can't remember anytime when Papa or any other pastors requested or forced members to give. There is usually no announcement to give for church projects as such except when you are encourage to contribute to transport scheme of the church( free transportation for bringing people who can not afford to come to church)- that is even not compulsory it is as you wish.

But most people will not believe and understand except they see for themselves. I say this over and over, Oyedepo et al have a choice, it is either the keep amassing wealth like some churches do without any positive impact on their immediate environment all in the name of I am just called to preach or they do little they are doing now. The consequences of the former is not far fetching- more unemployed individuals, underdeveloped communities, increased number of students awaiting admission which in turn will lead to an increase in social vices etc.

Yes he may have his faults, he is not perfect, he is human, I am not perfect either and I am still yet to see any perfect being on earth presently. I almost sure that God himself will attest to that. We all are work in progress, working towards the perfect man which is Christ Jesus. I however think that when an individual is doing well, they should be applauded and not criticized. I just pray that those criticising them can just think deeply and see the good in what they are doing. I am a beneficiary of their good deeds.

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Re: Pastors Manage Churches Better Than Government Manged The Country by texazzpete(m): 8:41am On Dec 21, 2017
Please change this title to "how pastors manage Church compounds and infrastructure..."

Because the CHURCH is much more than buildings and farms. It's also about the people in it...and many of them continue to wallow in penury while their Pastors grow fat on offerings and 'seeds'.

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Re: Pastors Manage Churches Better Than Government Manged The Country by anonimi: 8:53am On Dec 21, 2017
texazzpete:
Please change this title to "how pastors manage Church compounds and infrastructure..."

Because the CHURCH is much more than buildings and farms. It's also about the people in it...and many of them continue to wallow in penury while their Pastors grow fat on offerings and 'seeds'.



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Re: Pastors Manage Churches Better Than Government Manged The Country by hglmkope(f): 9:14am On Dec 21, 2017
Obi1kenobi:


Which private jet does Harvard's president use? What of the other non-profit organizations I named - which private jet do they use? Oyedepo's jet belongs to him. Stop deluding yourself. No one else decides who rides and who doesn't and his son will certainly inherit his holdings.

It's funny you think Joel Osteen, seen as representing much of what is wrong with the modern perversion of the faith somehow proves your point. He's seen by much of the American public as another conman televangelist. No surprise many of these are the heroes of Nigerian Pentecostals. Any church where custodianship is passed on as some kind of birthright within the family is a den of conmen. America of course is the land where pastors are allowed to be con men. The Europeans are less tolerant of profiteering pastors - a major reason the likes of Oyedepo and Ashimolowo have gotten in trouble with the UK authorities before.

I am sure that you did not know that UK authorities exonerated Winners chapel in the church and considered it an organization that should be emulated. I guess it is nit your fault. The media is so faulted that evil deeds are usually broadcasted so fast while good deeds are usually buried and left unannounced. The media is not at fault either, humans are. Most of us tend to rejoice in the downfall of our fellow human and most also fail to see the good in what others do.

Truth be told, these people are trying. They might be not be perfect, I have my flaws too and I know that you have yours.
You may not like the fact that the church has several schools and all maybe because you think that is not their calling, I am sorry, I can't change your opinion about that. All I know is that several individuals have benefited from the establishment of those schools. You may also think that they are not suppose to collect tithe and offering, I can't change your opinion on that too but all I know is that there has never been any compulsion to give, people who give, give freely.
If you own a standard organization, you will understand that you don't get profit immediately from business dealings especially when you have invested a whole lot in the business. For some it takes years, so I believe Oyedepo when he says he has not profited from CU. For clarity, I will make a simple scenario. A women who decides to be selling normal pure water and drinks after investing let say 150,000 to buy a freezer, 10,000 to buy 100 bags of water 100,000 to buy drinks will. She rented a shop of say 120,000 per annum and employs 2 sales persons to pay them 3000 naira per month. If you had basic economics orientation and mathematical skills you will understand that she can only be said to have made profit if the amount she earns or gains is more than the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing or selling her goods as well as the labour cost.

So bring that into the issue of CU with close to 1000 staff and faculty members including professors. Just last week, over 50 faculty members were promoted in Covenant University including 20 or more individuals who were promoted to the rank of full professors. The school has several buildings (for hostels and lectures) which are needed for normal running of the school(and can be put under running cost), a stadium which is at the final stage of completion, standard labs, research buildings etc. Each year, there is always a building project that the school embarks on. The school has internal research grants available for qualified faculty member, free internet etc. The school provides conference supports for her staff both local and international and I can't count the number of people that benefited form that every year. As a lecturer, you don't have to use your money to publish an article so far they the article is published in Scopus or Thompson Reuters. The school can pay as high as 2000 dollars for an article. A lecturer published 3 articles this year and the school paid 625 dollars per article.

My point here is- it costs to run a standard organization and if you are in the system, you will understand that they there has really not been any profit so far from CU.
Re: Pastors Manage Churches Better Than Government Manged The Country by hglmkope(f): 9:22am On Dec 21, 2017
anonimi:

How many people have you helped your self. This requires a collective effort from all and it is not to be limited to a particular group. If you are a church member, when last did you yourself extend your own helping hands to others.

The church worldwide is trying. Maybe they need to do more but they are doing something. Their efforts would be felt if we do the little that we can do too.

Most of Christ's admonishment where to individuals and not to the church ( yes apart from the ones he gave to the seven churches in revelation) because individual Christians represent the church. Our body is the temple of God not some buildings or group of people.


Re: Pastors Manage Churches Better Than Government Manged The Country by hglmkope(f): 9:23am On Dec 21, 2017
anonimi:





How many people have you helped your self. This requires a collective effort from all and it is not to be limited to a particular group. If you are a church member, when last did you yourself extend your own helping hands to others.

The church worldwide is trying. Maybe they need to do more but they are doing something. Their efforts would be felt if we do the little that we can do too.

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