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What Is The Source Of Morality - Religion - Nairaland

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What Is The Source Of Morality by Neurotika: 7:41am On Feb 11, 2018
Plato asked an interesting question - '' Is conduct right because the gods command it or do the gods command it cos its right?''.

What yardstick do we use to measure morality?. Religion or Reasoning?. If you pick Religion,where do you now place Reasoning in determining the morality of an act that religion is silent about? E.g Masturbation, Technology (Use of Robots, Sex Dolls etc)

If you pick Reasoning,why do we then need the gods to interpret morality to us?.

On this cardinal questions lies the confusion that keeps ravaging humanity.

2 Likes

Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by Gggg102(m): 7:57am On Feb 11, 2018
I will pick empathy. something along the lines of doing to treating others the way you want to be treated.

3 Likes

Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by Nobody: 8:00am On Feb 11, 2018
You know, Ron Kenoly once sang a song telling america to return back to righteousness and stop writing laws inspired by lust and convenience. When he was asked why he sang it, he said America was a nation built under God bla bla, american currency has inscribed on it.."in God we trust", and he ended his answer with "God bless america".

Civilization comes with demerits such as moral decay but people are negligent of it. Its so much that morality which was d order of d day some centuries back is now looking strange because what this generation is familiar with is civilization and immorality.

So op, I think you're asking the wrong question, morality has existed in many forms depending on d culture of different people right from creation. The more disturbing and researchable question which encapsulates this present generation in which we find ourselves is "what's the origin of civilization/immorality"
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by 2cato: 8:13am On Feb 11, 2018
I will pick personal emphaty or feeling with the society

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Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by Neurotika: 11:38am On Feb 11, 2018
RadicallyBlunt:
You know, Ron Kenoly once sang a song telling america to return back to righteousness and stop writing laws inspired by lust and convenience. When he was asked why he sang it, he said America was a nation built under God bla bla, american currency has inscribed on it.."in God we trust", and he ended his answer with "God bless america".

Civilization comes with demerits such as moral decay but people are negligent of it. Its so much that morality which was d order of d day some centuries back is now looking strange because what this generation is familiar with is civilization and immorality.

So op, I think you're asking the wrong question, morality has existed in many forms depending on d culture of different people right from creation. The more disturbing and researchable question which encapsulates this present generation in which we find ourselves is "what's the origin of civilization/immorality"

Religion is as old as man. Even the cultures and traditions you are talking about were drafted with religious influences in it. And there is no such thing as a universal way of doing things cos culture still differs even in a homogeneous settings. I also do not understand the point you made as to civilization bringing moral decay. How do you define moral decay?
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by Neurotika: 11:45am On Feb 11, 2018
Gggg102:
I will pick empathy. something along the lines of doing to treating others the way you want to be treated.

What I might be ok with, another man might not. I might be ok with another man wooing my wife if I don't love her. Does it mean I have the right to do so with other men's wives?

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Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by Gggg102(m): 12:11pm On Feb 11, 2018
Neurotika:


What I might be ok with, another man might not. I might be ok with another man wooing my wife if I don't love her. Does it mean I have the right to do so with other men's wives?


empathy is about how the other person feels. you have to put yourself in the person's condition.
if the person does not like it, don't do it to the person.

-if a person wants to be treated in a way and you also want to be treated in that same way, treat each other that way.
-if a person does not like to be treated a way and you also would not like it if you were in their shoes, don't do it to the person.
-if a person does not like to be treated a certain way but you would love to be treated in that way, don't treat the person that way but you can allow yourself to be treated that way.
-if a person wants to be treated in a way, but you don't want to be treated that way, you can treat the person that way but you shouldn't be treated that way.

4 Likes

Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by Neurotika: 12:24pm On Feb 11, 2018
Gggg102:



empathy is about how the other person feels. you have to put yourself in the person's condition.
if the person does not like it, don't do it to the person.

-if a person wants to be treated in a way and you also want to be treated in that same way, treat each other that way.
-if a person does not like to be treated a way and you also would not like it if you were in their shoes, don't do it to the person.
-if a person does not like to be treated a certain way but you would love to be treated in that way, don't treat the person that way but you can allow yourself to be treated that way.
-if a person wants to be treated in a way, but you don't want to be treated that way, you can treat the person that way but you shouldn't be treated that way.

But there are cases where you cannot know what the person wants or doesn't? Cases where your actions to someone affects a third party that you don't know well like the example I gave. Or cases where you haven't established much relationship with someone to know their likes and dislikes, then a certain situation arise that requires you to behave to them in a way. How do you reconcile this?
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by Gggg102(m): 12:31pm On Feb 11, 2018
Neurotika:


But there are cases where you cannot know what the person wants or doesn't? Cases where your actions to someone affects a third party that you don't know well like the example I gave. Or cases where you haven't established much relationship with someone to know their likes and dislikes, then a certain situation arise that requires you to behave to them in a way. How do you reconcile this?


in cases like yours, you know how people in general want to be treated.

the average person won't want you to be sleeping with his spouse.

or you treat people in a neutral manner
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by Neurotika: 12:48pm On Feb 11, 2018
Gggg102:



in cases like yours, you know how people in general want to be treated.

the average person won't want you to be sleeping with his spouse.

or you treat people in a neutral manner

I actually agree that humans should live based on the Golden rule. But the truth is, most of our laws (especially in Africa) has religious influences in it. Immunity to tax for religious institutions , Laws against the LGBT communities etc. We describe this laws as 'godly' and defend them vehemently. Yet we refuse to use empathy in judging how reasonable they are.
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by jamescross: 12:58pm On Feb 11, 2018
Neurotika:
Plato asked- '' Is conduct right because the gods command it or do the gods command it cos its right?''
What yardstick do we use to measure morality?. Religion or Reasoning?. If you pick Religion,where do you now place Reasoning in determining the morality of an act that religion is silent about? E.g Masturbation, Technology
If you pick Reasoning,why do we then need the gods to interpret morality to us?.
On this cardinal questions lies the confusion that keeps ravaging humanity.
our reasoning is based on what we are taught, religion is basically traditions of men as claim to have gotten it from their gods.

i pick neither, why! lemme explain. it's also connects to where we believe our origin is from i.e who first taught us.
here's a question can an isolated(without interaction) human, learn without being taught?
so did our reasoning self evolve or where we shown by an all knowing God. our morals is based on what we value.

what made man gave man his values.

1 Like

Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by jamescross: 1:04pm On Feb 11, 2018
Gggg102:

in cases like yours, you know how people in general want to be treated.
the average person won't want you to be sleeping with his spouse.

or you treat people in a neutral manner
Neurotika:


But there are cases where you cannot know what the person wants or doesn't? Cases where your actions to someone affects a third party that you don't know well like the example I gave. Or cases where you haven't established much relationship with someone to know their likes and dislikes, then a certain situation arise that requires you to behave to them in a way. How do you reconcile this?
Jesus said love your neighbour as yourself. do unto others as you would like done unto you.

just my input
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by jamescross: 1:06pm On Feb 11, 2018
Neurotika:


I actually agree that humans should live based on the Golden rule. But the truth is, most of our laws (especially in Africa) has religious influences in it. Immunity to tax for religious institutions , Laws against the LGBT communities etc. We describe this laws as 'godly' and defend them vehemently. Yet we refuse to use empathy in judging how reasonable they are.
because it is religious doesn't make it the truth
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by Neurotika: 1:11pm On Feb 11, 2018
jamescross:
our reasoning is based on what we are taught, religion is basically traditions of men as claim to have gotten it from their gods.

i pick neither, why! lemme explain. it's also connects to where we believe our origin is from i.e who first taught us.
here's a question can an isolated(without interaction) human, learn without being taught?
so did our reasoning self evolve or where we shown by an all knowing God. our morals is based on what we value.

what made man gave man his values.

A human is capable of reasoning without being taught. It's basic science really. A human being born in a wilderness but has access to things to make him survive is capable of basic reasoning. Bringing the 'all knowing God' putting values into us by default into this issue is just you missing the point.
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by jamescross: 2:04pm On Feb 11, 2018
Neurotika:


A human is capable of reasoning without being taught. It's basic science really. A human being born in a wilderness but has access to things to make him survive is capable of basic reasoning. Bringing the 'all knowing God' putting values into us by default into this issue is just you missing the point.
why go too far. how about a baby at home, it's a human being isn't. even doctors say keep out of reach to children who according to you is capable of reasoning without being taught. i never learnt that in basic science.

if indeed missed the point by bringing in that option, where is your point?

do you really believe your illogical conclusion, then test it with your new born baby. good luck
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by Gggg102(m): 6:16pm On Feb 11, 2018
Neurotika:


I actually agree that humans should live based on the Golden rule. But the truth is, most of our laws (especially in Africa) has religious influences in it. Immunity to tax for religious institutions , Laws against the LGBT communities etc. We describe this laws as 'godly' and defend them vehemently. Yet we refuse to use empathy in judging how reasonable they are.
Gggg102:




-if a person wants to be treated in a way, but you don't want to be treated that way, you can treat the person that way but you shouldn't be treated that way.
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by monex(m): 2:17pm On Feb 22, 2018
Gggg102:
I will pick empathy. something along the lines of doing to treating others the way you want to be treated.

can i murder others because I am suicidal?
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by monex(m): 2:22pm On Feb 22, 2018
Neurotika:


A human is capable of reasoning without being taught. It's basic science really. A human being born in a wilderness but has access to things to make him survive is capable of basic reasoning. Bringing the 'all knowing God' putting values into us by default into this issue is just you missing the point.

that I have reasoning does not mean I have developed any sense of morality.

If I was born and lived in isolation. I would not have a sense of morality. even animals raised in isolation only think of self-survival
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by Neurotika: 3:15pm On Feb 22, 2018
monex:


that I have reasoning does not mean I have developed any sense of morality.

If I was born and lived in isolation. I would not have a sense of morality. even animals raised in isolation only think of self-survival

I fail to see your point. I never argued that morality can be gotten in isolation. I argued reasoning.
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by CoolUsername: 4:07pm On Feb 22, 2018
jamescross:
our reasoning is based on what we are taught, religion is basically traditions of men as claim to have gotten it from their gods.

i pick neither, why! lemme explain. it's also connects to where we believe our origin is from i.e who first taught us.
here's a question can an isolated(without interaction) human, learn without being taught?
so did our reasoning self evolve or where we shown by an all knowing God. our morals is based on what we value.

what made man gave man his values.

Every social animal has positive actions that are rewarded and negative actions that are shunned. Lion prides, wolf packs, even lobsters (according to clinical psychologist Jordan Peterson) show display some form code.

Man is no different, hunter-gatherer societies of cavemen had a code of conduct, as society grew more complex, morality also evolved.

In summary, morality is driven by the need to survive when living in a group.

2 Likes

Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by plaetton: 4:27pm On Feb 22, 2018
Just to add to this discussion on morality and it's source, let me remind those who continue to point to religion and their invisible gods as the source for morality that such argument remains a failed argument.
For good example, we are not surprised at all that latest prison statistics show that 92% of prison inmates in Nigeria are adherents of the 2 major Middle East religions.
Adherents of African traditional religions make up only 2% of the prison population, while atheists make up only 1% of the prison population in Nigeria.

So, the facts are there.
Religion is definitely not the source of morality.

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Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by Neurotika: 4:59pm On Feb 22, 2018
plaetton:
Just to add to this discussion on morality and it's source, let me remind those who continue to point to religion and their invisible gods as the source for morality that such argument remains a failed argument.
For good example, we are not surprised at all that latest prison statistics show that 92% of prison inmates in Nigeria are adherents of the 2 major Middle East religions.
Adherents of African traditional religions make up only 2% of the prison population, while atheists make up only 1% of the prison population in Nigeria.

So, the facts are there.
Religion is definitely not the source of morality.

I guess what you wanted to say is religion 'should' not be a source of morality. But if you stand by your point then there are two flaws in it. One, if religion isn't a source of Morality, there should be more atheists than theists.

Two, atheists are expected to make up approximately 1% of any large gathering in a religious country like ours cos they also make up a very small percentage (if not 1%) of this country's population.
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by butterflyl1on: 4:59pm On Feb 22, 2018
plaetton:
Just to add to this discussion on morality and it's source, let me remind those who continue to point to religion and their invisible gods as the source for morality that such argument remains a failed argument.
For good example, we are not surprised at all that latest prison statistics show that 92% of prison inmates in Nigeria are adherents of the 2 major Middle East religions.
Adherents of African traditional religions make up only 2% of the prison population, while atheists make up only 1% of the prison population in Nigeria.

So, the facts are there.
Religion is definitely not the source of morality.


If Nigeria has a religious population of 90% while atheists and traditionalists occupy the 1% and 9% slot respectively, common sense would tell you that naturally the atheist numbers in prisons would be far less due to the rather infinitismal atheist numbers in Nigeria.

However it is a huge positive that out of a probable 160million religious population, only 70,000 or so are in prisons from that block while despite the very tiny atheist numbers in Nigeria you can still find some in Prison, speaks volumes of the negative side of morality in atheism.

Grow this number statistically side by side and you would be amazed that if Nigeria was 90% atheist then we would be having more prisons built to accommodate them as the current prisons would be seriously overpopulated while if the religious were the 1% then this means that there would no religious person in any prison in Nigeria.

This is how statistics are derived. Stop peddling trash.

cc Neurotika
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by sonofluc1fer: 5:21pm On Feb 22, 2018
Lol.
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by jamescross: 5:29pm On Feb 22, 2018
CoolUsername:


Every social animal has positive actions that are rewarded and negative actions that are shunned. Lion prides, wolf packs, even lobsters (according to clinical psychologist Jordan Peterson) show display some form code.

Man is no different, hunter-gatherer societies of cavemen had a code of conduct, as society grew more complex, morality also evolved.

In summary, morality is driven by the need to survive when living in a group.
like i said interaction breeds morality, but does that really answer the question of the source of morality

if morality means right values, and from your post i sense you support evolution has the source of our morals. evolution is about survival, creation is about purpose.

another question is why do we have right values, why do we need morals? is it because we need to respect what we depend on. if what we depend on changes so does our morals.

it's all still down to what a man believes his source is, that is where he gets it.
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by plaetton: 5:30pm On Feb 22, 2018
butterflyl1on:



If Nigeria has a religious population of 90% while atheists and traditionalists occupy the 1% and 9% slot respectively, common sense would tell you that naturally the atheist numbers in prisons would be far less due to the rather infinitismal atheist numbers in Nigeria.

However it is a huge positive that out of a probable 160million religious population, only 70,000 or so are in prisons from that block while despite the very tiny atheist numbers in Nigeria you can still find some in Prison, speaks volumes of the negative side of morality in atheism.

Grow this number statistically side by side and you would be amazed that if Nigeria was 90% atheist then we would be having more prisons built to accommodate them as the current prisons would be seriously overpopulated while if the religious were the 1% then this means that there would no religious person in any prison in Nigeria.

This is how statistics are derived. Stop peddling trash.

cc Neurotika

Your argument is flawed on many fronts.
For example, with a population that has 90% religious people, that so-called custodians of lofty morality, that religious people should be statistically under-represented in the prison population.
Conversely, since atheists and non-adherents of the judeo-christian moral philosophies are assumed to be people without a moral guidepost, the atheists should have been expected to make up a greatly disproportionate representation of the prison population.

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Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by butterflyl1on: 5:43pm On Feb 22, 2018
plaetton:


Your argument is flawed on many fronts.
For example, with a population that has 90% religious people, that so-called custodians of lofty morality, that religious people should be statistically under-represented in the prison population.
Conversely, since atheists and non-adherents of the judeo-christian moral philosophies are assumed to be people without a moral guidepost, the atheists should have been expected to make up a greatly disproportionate representation of the prison population.


I just gave you simple statistics and how things are properly analysed and you are hear trying to massage your bruised ego with a heavily flawed post.

If the religious make up about 160 million of the population of Nigeria and we can find just 70,000 in prison from this 160 million people, and atheists are just about 1.8 million in Nigeria yet we find about 750 of them in prisons.

This means that if you grow these atheist figures in comparison to the population of the religious and contrast side by side with the current numbers in prisons this would means that if the atheist population is 90% of Nigeria then the atheist population in prisons would be at about 215,000 nationwide which is about 3 times the current prison population of the religious using the same 90% religious population standard.

This is simple statistics. Something you obviously know nothing about.
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by sonofluc1fer: 6:32pm On Feb 22, 2018
plaetton:


Your argument is flawed on many fronts.
For example, with a population that has 90% religious people, that so-called custodians of lofty morality, that religious people should be statistically under-represented in the prison population.
Conversely, since atheists and non-adherents of the judeo-christian moral philosophies are assumed to be people without a moral guidepost, the atheists should have been expected to make up a greatly disproportionate representation of the prison population.
Hate to break it to you. You're wasting your time.

3 Likes

Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by plaetton: 6:35pm On Feb 22, 2018
butterflyl1on:



I just gave you simple statistics and how things are properly analysed and you are hear trying to massage your bruised ego with a heavily flawed post.

If the religious make up about 160 million of the population of Nigeria and we can find just 70,000 in prison from this 160 million people, and atheists are just about 1.8 million in Nigeria yet we find about 750 of them in prisons.

This means that if you grow these atheist figures in comparison to the population of the religious and contrast side by side with the current numbers in prisons this would means that if the atheist population is 90% of Nigeria then the atheist population in prisons would be at about 215,000 nationwide which is about 3 times the current prison population of the religious using the same 90% religious population standard.

This is simple statistics. Something you obviously know nothing about.

Laughing out loud.

First of all, why not dwell on the statistics that are given , instead of a projecting a hypothetical situation suited for bias ? .
So, you think that a 70,000 prison population for the world's most religious country of 160m is a very good score ?
Good score compared to what other country ?
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by plaetton: 6:36pm On Feb 22, 2018
sonofluc1fer:

Hate to break it to you. You're wasting your time.

Lol.
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by butterflyl1on: 8:01pm On Feb 22, 2018
plaetton:


Laughing out loud.

First of all, why not dwell on the statistics that are given , instead of a projecting a hypothetical situation suited for bias ? .
So, you think that a 70,000 prison population for the world's most religious country of 160m is a very good score ?
Good score compared to what other country ?

Extremely good score. If out of 160 million, 70,000 is defective then yes it is a very good score.

I am simply using the given statistics to project and this is how it is done worldwide statistically.

My projections are not biased and are solely based on already given figures which you ate also privy to so how are they biased?

Did I falsely inflate any figures at the start? My foundations for analysis stands true and you cannot deny it can you?
Re: What Is The Source Of Morality by sonofluc1fer: 8:10pm On Feb 22, 2018
plaetton:


Lol.
Read his comments for the lols. grin

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