I have being thinking on this issue of fate for quite some time now and I'll like to get your opinions. If you do believe in fate pls tell me why. Also is there a difference between fate and destiny. Well I believe everyone's destiny is in his/her hands, and the decisions we make, guided by our experiences and knowledge base, is what turns out to be what people call fate. What do you think?

fate=destiny


Destiny is coined from the same root word as Destination. Its where u get to IF u follow a particular route. It lies in ur hand. It wasnt pre-written. thats just a lame excuse to explain out happenings beyond us. But truth be told, lots of Destiny proponents would tell you that you can change ur destiny. my take on that is if u can change ur destiny, then it wasnt destiny in the First place.

It's in ur hands.

The excuse people give is that some people work hard as well but die in penury. Resources aint enough for everybody to be millionaires. So that does not proof anything about destiny.

This is very much related to the post Human Free Will Versus God's All-Knowing Nature. If indeed God knows the future then that means that whatever God knows about my future is my fate or destiny. How can one possibly change that? If ones destiny can be changed, does it mean that one has changed God's mind? And if God's mind can be changed, then maybe he can go back on some promises too?

I don't believe in fate or destiny because i don't believe that a person's life has been pre-planned by somebody or something.

...meaning you don't believe in God?

...meaning you don't believe in God?

I didn't say so. Now that you've mentioned it though I would like to ask you, because you Believe in God does it mean you have to believe in destiny? If so then there really is no use planning for the future - it would turn out to be a futile effort or don't you think?

This is very much related to the post Human Free Will Versus God's All-Knowing Nature.  If indeed God knows the future then that means that whatever God knows about my future is my fate or destiny.  How can one possibly change that?  If ones destiny can be changed, does it mean that one has changed God's mind?  And if God's mind can be changed, then maybe he can go back on some promises too?

DBest, my phrase was directed to the person who said "i don't believe that a person's life has been pre-planned by somebody or something."

I'm sorry for the confusion.

It's clear that if you believe in God, you must believe in pre-destination, otherwise God could not be all seeing, so whatever you do, it doesn't matter.

nferyn:

It's clear that if you believe in God, you must believe in pre-destination.

I believe in God but I don't exactly believe in pre-destination. We believers of God see him in different ways. Most people see him as unchanging, I don't see him that way. God could have a plan/destiny for us but he definitely changes his mind too, that's right, he does change his mind sometimes. My own Destiny is where I want to be - my destination. I just won't accept fate, NO!

IAH:

I believe in God but I don't exactly believe in pre-destination. We believers of God see him in different ways. Most people see him as unchanging, I don't see him that way. God could have a plan/destiny for us but he definitely changes his mind too, that's right, he does change his mind sometimes. My own Destiny is where I want to be - my destination. I just won't accept fate, NO!

So God is not all seeing

IAH:

I believe in God but I don't exactly believe in pre-destination. We believers of God see him in different ways. Most people see him as unchanging, I don't see him that way. God could have a plan/destiny for us but he definitely changes his mind too, that's right, he does change his mind sometimes. My own Destiny is where I want to be - my destination. I just won't accept fate, NO!

Exactly, exactly and that is how God wants us to be

nferyn:


So God is not all seeing

God is all seeing, but if you want to refer to all knowing he knows what you will do even before you do it, yes he does, but he has also given you a free will and he wants you to use your will, there is predestination and there is your will, God predetermines but also permits you to use your will, God given will to recreate your world.

nicetohave:

God is all seeing, but if you want to refer to all knowing he knows what you will do even before you do it, yes he does, but he has also given you a free will and he wants you to use your will, there is predestination and there is your will, God predetermines but also permits you to use your will, God given will to recreate your world.

This does not compute. It's like saying an object is both a square and a circle at the same time. If there is predestination, there is no free will.

nicetohave:

Exactly, exactly and that is how God wants us to be
God is all seeing, but if you want to refer to all knowing he knows what you will do even before you do it, yes he does, but he has also given you a free will and he wants you to use your will, there is predestination and there is your will, God predetermines but also permits you to use your will, God given will to recreate your world.

Correct. God is all-seeing and all-knowing. Being all-seeing does not mean he can't change his mind and the fact that he changes his mind does not mean he is not all-seeing.
Now take this conversation as an illustration:

God: Hey Bukky, I have a plan for you to become a Medical Doctor.
Bukky: No God please, I want to be a Lawyer.
God: Ok, dear.
Bukky: Thanks God. (kisses God)
God: I actually knew you were not going to agree to be a Doctor, and I also knew I was going to grant you whatever you wanted to be, and I also knew you were going to ask to be a Lawyer! Now I'm going to tell Gbenga(Bukky's friend) my plan for him to become a beggar and I already know he will accept it because I know he thinks I cannot change my mind.

nferyn:

This does not compute. It's like saying an object is both a square and a circle at the same time. If there is predestination, there is no free will.

Well, it's possible to have freewill and pre-destination together. Freewill is the allowance given to change whatever pre-destination there is...meaning that there is a plan, but in case you don't like it, you can change it. Like I said before, I don't exactly believe that pre-destination thing but I think it does compute.

@ nferyn, But infact there is!!! and it makes sense too, because they are two different things.............now our will may supercede predestination if we so chose, it pleases God to create us thus so we can love him of our free will and not because he has predestinated us to do so in giving his son to die for our sins, God never predestines us for evil, failure or misfortune, that is what we erroneously term "fate" with God there is no fate but choice, choice to accept the will of God for you or chose your own "fate" with your free will. A classical example is the garden of gethsemane when Jesus cried that the cup be taken away from him but quickly add, "but thy will be done not mine" because ultimately doing the will of God is the best thing to do, what will have hapened if he had insisted the cup be taken away from him? my answer is it would have been taken away, and what will happen to the divine purpose of God for the redemption of man? it will still have been fulfilled, how? i dont know, that is why he is an all knowing God....and that is why you are still existing today even though you do not believe in the existence of God, because he allows you to make your choice with your will and intellect to make your own choice, reason why those of us believe is because we chose to not because we are brainwashed, that is what pleases God to do

@IAH, thanks for your input...........thanks

Gods pre-destination isnt man definition of destiny.

This does not compute. It's like saying an object is both a square and a circle at the same time. If there is predestination, there is no free will.

Its simple. God predestination is like setting the course of nature. Ur freewill is u riding on that course. God pre-destined for u to reach where your freewill leads you to.

So basically God is not omniscient

what is omniscient nferyn?, we are defining God with dicitionary and our intellect and that is where we miss it, the same problem i had with exu when discussing God creating us in his image, you cannot reason out God with your intellect, that is for the material world, those that worship God may only do so in spirit and in truth, your intellect will carry you as far as it can let you down but lets get back to the question, what is omniscient nferyn?

So basically God is not omniscient

The fact that GOD knows who you will be doesnt mean that GOD made you be IT.
All knowing is different from All doing

@ nicetohave
omniscient: all knowing, all seeing
@ layi
if God is omniscient, free will is a fluke as it isn't free will at all.

@ layi
if God is omniscient, free will is a fluke as it isn't free will at all

God knows what you will do

I guess thats the best way to explain this.

nferyn:

@ nicetohave
omniscient: all knowing, all seeing
@ layi
if God is omniscient, free will is a fluke as it isn't free will at all.

there we go again but that is not a statement of despair but one of marvel at how you could be so intellectually adept but reasoning bereft nferyn, it only means we as humans are flawed and blinded by our innate imperfection which robs us of the insight into Good and Bad, mortal and immortal, life and death, the existence and the true meaning and worship of God............i do not profer to have a convincing explanation to you on this, maybe someone else may have a better way to put it across to you

layi:

God knows what you will do

I guess thats the best way to explain this.

simply put, thanks

I don't believe God has tied someone up on what he will do. Of all things that is in God's control, he's left man's freewill to him. Man is the ultimate master of his own destiny. He will decide if he will follow God or not.

I know a lot of things happen to people that they don't have control over. May be it is domino effect, may be not. I use to give this example to young people who find it hard to be serious. Imagine a young boy playing around in school instead of reading and concequently drops out of school or comes out with a bad result. What happens? He can't get a good job. He lives in a ghetto and marries someone there and have children there and his children can't go to good schools and his first daughter gets pregnant at 14 and the daughter is forced to drop out of school and she has more children who sell stuff on the streets and the damned grandfather talks about destiny and fate!

Man, what we do now and what others are doing could have profound and lasting effect on our lives and other's lives in the near and far future. Given enough will and drive, someone can break out of that evil chain and transform the lives of others along with it.

I don't think God has destined some for heaven or hell else no one would be guilty. God is passionate and will do his best to make us see the light but he CANNOT drag us to him.

If he knows what you will do before you do it (as in omniscience), you have no choice but to do it, thus you have no free will. You may try to bend definitions a smuch as you like, but free will implies choice, choice implies uncertainty of the future, uncertainty implies that omniscience is imposible.
Omniscience and free will are incompatible.

dejiolowe:

I don't think God has destined some for heaven or hell else no one would be guilty. God is passionate and will do his best to make us see the light but he CANNOT drag us to him.

So God is not omnipotent (all powerful).
Are you people so blind that you cannot see that the properties ascribed to God are mutually incompatible?

that is why it is exclusive to God and to none other........God choses to allow you to chose, he can very well drag you to him, make you a literal zombie but then that takes away your free will, now it goes beyond God being "the all knowing" and "all powerful" just for ego gratification, his purpose includes the entire design of humanity, we are taking several attributes of God in isolation in different threads and want to dissect it with our reasoning, im afraid we wont go far; and that goes for both sides.

I guess, i mght have to round off my point here cuzz its obvious nferyn sticks to logic to explain the almighty and there is no way we can box GOD up. I don't care how i might sound but truth no mighter how beutiful, ugly, appealing, appalling it might be remains d truth. It doesnt have to follow your OWN reasoning.

Enough of logically explaining GOD Almighty. Truth is:
This GOD can be in 1 place and everywhere at the same time.
This GOD can know what you will do before u do it.
This GOD calls those things that be not as though they were but he lies not because his word has inherent power that makes them be.
This GOD stands at both beginning and end of time.
This GOD is so big..he occupies the world (aterere kari aye) yet so small to come embodied in a baby.
This GOD lives is great awe and splendour. Might be difficult (to some folks) to proove HIS existence yet impossible to proove his non-existence.

This is not to eulogize him (i wish though) but to explain that we can't box GOD up. If u believe there is no GOD, good for you.
Truth stays the same. Experience sometimes is d best teacher.

So basically the God concept is illogical

Truth though is a human concept and cannot be applied to a being that is not bound by human logic or natural limitations.

Saying God is truth is the same thing as saying God is purple, not human purple, but a purple only God himself can understand. Such a statement does not transmit any information because the concepts are not defined in the human realm. You cannot understand God, his purpose, his properties, his intentions, ... You cannot understand anything about God, because understanding would be defining and defining would be limiting and God is unlimited.... Intellectual blabbertalk

youre right nferyn, the whole concept of God and predestination is illogical and an intellectual blabbertalk, we are saying the same thing from a different perspective

Yes the concept of God can be very logical from the Islamic point of view if understood properly. I don't want to give opinions from the Christian point of view, but allow me to explain the concept of destiny from the Islamic point of view.

First of all, I would like to define certain Islamic terminologies, because I am going to use it later on.

TAQDEER
The word taqdeer stems from the three letter root qaa-daa-raa with the basic meanings of ‘to measure. Qadartush shai means ‘I measured the thing'; qadarash shai bish shai is ‘he measured the thing against the (other) thing': qadartu ‘alaihe s sowb (‘he made clothes according to his measurements); qa dd artu alaihesh shai means ‘I made measured changes to the thing'.

Therefore , taqdeer basically means to make something according to a measure / standard. Some examples of its derivatives are as follows:

► miqdaar: a model, pattern, or a standard
► qadrun: measurement (volume, size, weight, etc)
► haaza qadrun haaza: this is exactly like this (other)
► jaa' ‘ala qadrin: he arrived according to the estimate
► jaawaza qadrahu: he transgressed his limits
► aqdar: a horse which trots in a way that its hind hoofs exactly follow the spots made by the front hoofs


From the Islamic point of view, God has ordained certain standards and measures for the functioning of the Universe. For instance, it is pre-determined for water to solidify at 0 ° C and vaporize at 100 ° C; for fire to burn and scorch and for the Earth to exert gravitational pull, and so on so forth. In the physical world of living matter (plants, animals and humans), Nature has similarly ordained their[b] taqdeer[/b]– some animals are herbivores, some are carnivores while Man is omnivore. The Sun, the Moon and all the other astral bodies are likewise bound to their respective taqdeer – their natural life spans and their properties.

But, Man is different from the rest of Creation in having the freedom of choice: O Rasool! proclaim to the entire mankind "The truth has come from your Rabb, whosoever chooses may accept it and whosoever chooses may reject it.. * Quran Chapter 18 Verse 29

Nonetheless, it is to be noted that Man is free to choose an action but they must bear the naturally ordained and pre-determined consequence of that action. If one puts one's finger in fire, one must suffer burns (because that is the taqdeer of that action). After that, one must turn to another action with a different taqdeer – like applying an ointment on the burn.

Similarly, in the human social world, Man is free to choose his actions but must bear the natural consequences of them. The laws governing the physical as well as the human social universe are unchanging and constant. Whosoever follows the Divine Law, even if to a very small extent, and does noble deeds will see pleasant results. And whosoever goes against the law, even if to a very small extent, would get appropriate punishment * Quran Chapter 99 Verse 7-8


One must act individually or collectively to get results in this universe. To get the desired results, the taqdeer of the Universe and the relating Laws of Nature must be discovered and kept in view at all times. The Natural laws, as we have seen are the standards and measures of things set by God. In other words, they are the aqdaar the permanent values which run the entire Universe. These aqdaar were given to mankind in one of the darkest hours of its intellectual existence.

I wouldnt want to go into explaining the darkest hours of humans intellectual existence, because it would be a total deviation from the actual topic at hand. But I hope we threat the Islamic point of view with rationality.

Quranic Reference for Taqdeer: Destiny

► He has created everything in a particular proportion and has determined the measures for its capabilities and potentialities. * Quran Chapter 25 Verse 2

► The conflict between evil and good is necessary for the evolution of the universe.This may be understood by means of * Quran Chapter 13 Verse 17

► It has been stated that there is a period of respite between actions and their results. This is evident from the following examples * Quran Chapter 13 Verse 8

► As regards life after death, it may be explained through an example. A seed, grain or a date stone appears to be lifeless but it contains a life-germ which, given appropriate conditions, bursts forth into a living plant * Quran Chapter 6 Verse 96

► Remember, the system satisfactorily provides for whoever trusts it and ultimately leaves nothing undecided. This is so because Allah Almighty has devised measures (rules and regulations) for everything * Quran Chapter 65 Verse 3

► Then We raise that child by passing him through various stages. According to this law of procreation and life, We have also laid down measures for death * Quran Chapter 56 Verse 60

► His Law contains measures for life and death and He has absolute power and control over all of them * Quran Chapter 41 Verse 39

► Means of sustenance are abundantly stored in the earth but may be taken out only in due measure * Quran Chapter 15 Verse 21

► Allah Almighty Creates everything by combining different elements and giving it a particular form.Thereafter,by eliminating extra and
unnecessary elements,creates proportion and balance in it * Quran Chapter 87 Verse 1-2-3

There is nothing like free will, if there happened to be any, it was taken away the day God gave the command for Adam and Eve not eat a particular fruit.

And yes, God's mind can be changed by mortals, this was shown when Moses asked God:'To what purpose would they be called your people if you distroy them? (Israelites in the wilderness)

For purpose and intents, there was an arguement whether there is hell or not, the simple truth is....just keep doing good, no matter what, all have it's reward..more like kama.

I don't intend to start a religious debate here, but I really need to clarify an issue here.

Islamic opinions and facts are not for you to judge, thats why I said a little bit of rationality would be greatly appreciated. It is very logical.

axeprince:

There is nothing like free will, if there happened to be any, it was taken away the day God gave the command for Adam and Eve not eat a particular fruit.

Is that an opinion based on your understanding, or from the bible. A reference would be appreciated.

axeprince:

And yes, God's mind can be changed by mortals, this was shown when Moses asked God:'To what purpose would they be called your people if you distroy them? (Israelites in the wilderness)

Well said, so every humanity has a chance then, not based on destiny, since God can change his mind according to your opinion.

And last of all. God is all loving. He is Fair, he does not pre-destine Hell for some nor pre-destine Heaven for some. The choice of heaven and Hell is in the hands of humanity based on their deeds, thanks to freedom of free will. Destiny in Islam is clearly defined, and does not cover all aspects of life. I repeat this is an Islamic point of view. So treat it with rationality.

@ logical

Thank you for trying to bring some sense into this debate. I think though that you've just added a layer of abstraction to the discussion.
From what I understood, in Islam, the properties of Allah are still in contradiction with the concept of free will.
Isn't Allah omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent? If so, then there is still no free will.
Can you clarify?