What are the two deist in the house arguing about?

toba:

So God is that limited? why dont u try wikipedia?

Is it even possible to make God more limited than the bible already made "him"? I very much doubt that.

To answer the question, God is whoever or whatever each individual makes "It" to be through his/her perception, intuition, and worldview. We create God to suit our inner state of spiritual growth. One man's God is another man's is another man's blasphemy. The word, "GOD", in  itself is not of any significant importance, but the concept behind it is. That was why i made that statement that "God" is just a manmade english word. Satisfied now? I was hoping you guys would be a bit more perceptive, but you were obviously not.
It is all good.

Deep Sight:

This does nothing to answer the question "What is God." This escapist response may be given in respect of everything. If I am asked what  a TABLE is, I could toe your path and state - "Table is a man made English word." That of course does not tell me what a table is, because the word "table" refers to something, just as surely as the word "God" refers to something.

What is a Car. Your answer - "it is a man made English word." Ol boy you go fail exam o. Because the word "car" refers to something - an automated vehicle moving on wheels. 

Deep Sight, you are not very perceptive, are you? Whatever.

Deep Sight:

Ridiculous. Hocus pocus. Bunkum. This only works if humans are eternal in the past - i:e have always existed.

Can you prove that there is something like a "past" in eternity? Is there a linear timeline in a timeless eternity? Is that not self contradictory?

Deep Sight:
There is no way you can assert or prove that that is the case.

The same goes for proving that there exist a past in a timeless eternity.

Deep Sight:
Accordingly it is prepostrerous to state that God created us and that simultaenously we created God

You are yet to tell me why such a claim is preposterous as you put it. Give a concrete reason why my stand is untenable. You submissions up till now are too weak to knock me of my stance. I am waiting.

Deep Sight:

for the simple reason that if God created us, then naturally this implies that we came into existence AFTER God - and as such could not have been there to create God before we even existed. Quit the absurdities, Jenwitem.

Like i said before, you are not very perceptive at all. I have already explained why that which you find impossible is actually both possible and is the case. But i will try one more time.

The creator and the created are one inseparable unit. They are not separated from each other, so they create each other simultaneously. There is no before and after, no linearity.

If God should pull the plug on this universe now, we will all seize to exist and so will "he". We, the universe, and God will all vanish into nothingness, and that's that. And that is why the plug will not be pulled, and that is also why the sentients will always be at the top of creation.

If deep sight is a deist, i am not.

mazaje:

What are the two deist in the house arguing about?

What about the angles? where they not created by the lord also?

I think it ultimately comes down to faith. You ether believe he created you, or you don't.

Don't be silly. The arguement in this discussion is not whether God created us or not. Did you read the posts at all?

@You:

What about the angles? where they not created by the lord also?

I think it ultimately comes down to faith. You ether believe he created you, or you don't.

As for the angels, do they exist?

Jenwitemi:

Deep Sight, you are not very perceptive, are you? Whatever.

Please address the issues and stop messing about.

You use the word "creator" for God and "created" for other sentient beings - WHY? ? ? ? Since you claimed they created each other why don't you use the word "creator" for the humans and "created" for God? ? ?

There is a reason that you deploy the word "creator" in reference to God: and everything you have said contradicts that reason.

As for "eternal in the past" It simply means something that has always existed. Infinity has always existed. Have human beings always existed? Can you prove that? ? ? ?

You are violently confused: and the tragedy of your confusion is that you imagine anything exotic or contradictory to be symptomatic of perceptiveness.

@Jenwitemi,

You assert that; ‘the creator and the created are one inseparable unit. They are not separated by each other, so they create each other simultaneously'.  This obviously is just a point of view, borne out of your own personal 'experiences' and exposures. I hope you don't think it's anything more than that!

I notice that in a lot of your posts you implore people to be 'perceptive' (a word which by the way needs defining); yet your response, that ‘God’ is just an ‘English word’, to my question; ‘what is God?’, leaves me wondering what exactly you mean when you use the word 'perceptive', because in my little understanding of what it means, that response would most certainly not qualify.
   
You then assert confidently that; ‘God is whoever or whatever each individual makes "It" to be through his/her perception, intuition, and worldview. We create God to suit our inner state of spiritual growth. One man's God is another man's blasphemy.’

To avoid any further misunderstanding would you kindly clarify a few questions that linger in me, reading through your statements:

1. If we create God to suit our inner state of spiritual growth, and ‘it’ is whatever each individual makes ‘it’ to be; are you then saying that in your 'perceptions', God does not exist other than in man’s fantasy/imagination?
2. If God is a product of our own imagination and experiences, as you imply, then what do you mean when you say that the created and the creator ‘create each other simultaneously’?
3. If God is not a product of man’s imagination then does he exist apart from man?
4. What exactly is the essence of God from your point of view?
5. Is man God?
6. If man is not God, then what is man?

Thanks

It is not likely that he will be able to offer a coherent response to your well articulated questions, given the sort of response he gave to your earlier question.

Deep Sight:

Please address the issues and stop messing about.

I already have. It is you who have not been able to prove me wrong.

Deep Sight:

You use the word "creator" for God and "created" for other sentient beings - WHY? ? ? ?

I used the word "creator" because the creator was the initiator of creation. That, i never contested. In any creative process, there is always the creator and the created, right? First, the creator initiates a creation, and then the created brings the creator into existence via it's power of conscious perception and contemplation, if the created is sentient. But in case the case when the created is not sentient, a sentient third party perception is needed to bring the creator to existence. I hope that you know that the creation is an eternal ongoing process that never ends.

Deep Sight:

Since you claimed they created each other why don't you use the word "creator" for the humans and "created" for God? ? ?

I could and it will still be valid. Creative powers are part of many abilities that we inherit from the creator/created as sentient beings. That is why we are sentient, our ability to create just about anything, including God(s).

Deep Sight:

There is a reason that you deploy the word "creator" in reference to God: and everything you have said contradicts that reason

The reason, i have stated above. God is the initiator of the ongoing creation, and i honor it for that, but that does not take away the other fact that without the power of conscious perceptions of sentient beings like us, nobody would be talking/debating about God at all, which would simply mean that He or IT (depending on how you see the creator) does not exist. Simple. There is no contradiction here.

Deep Sight:

As for "eternal in the past" It simply means something that has always existed. Infinity has always existed. Have human beings always existed? Can you prove that? ? ? ?

How do you know that infinity has always existed. You prove that first. Moreover, you have contradicted yourself again. What has always existed is supposed to be timeless, which means it has no past because it is beyond linear timeline.

Deep Sight:
You are violently confused: and the tragedy of your confusion is that you imagine anything exotic or contradictory to be symptomatic of perceptiveness.

Perhaps it is my view that violently confuses you, but i am not in any way confused. If you think that i am confused prove me wrong, then. The floor is wide open. Just throwing angry words at me won't do your case any good. You are now acting like christian/muslems who turn ugly once they can't put forward anything significant to dislodge any concept that goes against their deeply held viewpoints.

beneli:

@Jenwitemi,

You assert that; ‘the creator and the created are one inseparable unit. They are not separated by each other, so they create each other simultaneously'.  This obviously is just a point of view, borne out of your own personal 'experiences' and exposures. I hope you don't think it's anything more than that!

While i agree that it is my own personal opinion, i am also convinced that it is more than my opinion. I take it as the truth. Without the power of belief, contemplation, perception, knowing of sentient beings, there is no creator. Remember that God itself, as a creative lifeforce, is a sentient being.

beneli:

@Jenwitemi,

I notice that in a lot of your posts you implore people to be 'perceptive' (a word which by the way needs defining); yet your response, that ‘God’ is just an ‘English word’, to my question; ‘what is God?’, leaves me wondering what exactly you mean when you use the word 'perceptive', because in my little understanding of what it means, that response would most certainly not qualify.

What does that word, GOD, means to you, then?

I am presonally not interested in words, but more interested in what lies behind words, what they represent. And i have been around long enough to have realized that how words are used defer from individual to individual. It is a thing of subjectivity.

beneli:

@Jenwitemi,
 You then assert confidently that; ‘God is whoever or whatever each individual makes "It" to be through his/her perception, intuition, and worldview. We create God to suit our inner state of spiritual growth. One man's God is another man's blasphemy.’

Correct.

beneli:

@Jenwitemi,
To avoid any further misunderstanding would you kindly clarify a few questions that linger in me, reading through your statements:

1. If we create God to suit our inner state of spiritual growth, and ‘it’ is whatever each individual makes ‘it’ to be; are you then saying that in your 'perceptions', God does not exist other than in man’s fantasy/imagination?
2. If God is a product of our own imagination and experiences, as you imply, then what do you mean when you say that the created and the creator ‘create each other simultaneously’?
3. If God is not a product of man’s imagination then does he exist apart from man?
4. What exactly is the essence of God from your point of view?
5. Is man God?
6. If man is not God, then what is man?
Thanks

1. If we create God to suit our inner state of spiritual growth, and ‘it’ is whatever each individual makes ‘it’ to be; are you then saying that in your 'perceptions', God does not exist other than in man’s fantasy/imagination? = Yes. That is why the understandings and definitions of what God is is so diverse within humanity. We recreate God in our own image.

2. If God is a product of our own imagination and experiences, as you imply, then what do you mean when you say that the created and the creator ‘create each other simultaneously’? = First of all, in order to understand my response to this question, you will need to know that the act of creation of the universe itself plus all within it, is an ongoing process. Creation is never finished, never completed. Creation is forever happening moment by moment. So because the creation is an ongoing process, this symbiotic dance of simultaneous acts of creation between the creator/initiator and the created is always ongoing. It never stops. The creator is dreaming/imagining the created and the vice versa is also happening, simultaneously. That is the eternal symbiotic dance of creation. It goes on forever.

3. If God is not a product of man’s imagination then does he exist apart from man? = I have already answered that question in my earlier posts. God cannot exist outside our perception, imagination, and contemplation abilities. We bring the creator to life just as it does us. We are one unit.

4. What exactly is the essence of God from your point of view? = God is the initiator. It is the life force of it's own creation, just as you are the life force of all that is in your dreams and imaginations.

5. Is man God? = Man is an expression of God, just like your fingers are the extensions of your hand, or the wave crescents are part of the see. They are inseparable unit. In that line of thought, one can also call man, God. That is why we possess the same creative power that God also possesses. It is one unit of sentience.

6. If man is not God, then what is man? = See above.


I hope i answered your questions satisfactorily.

@ Jenwitemi - This quote from YOU -

In any creative process, there is always the creator and the created, right? First, the creator initiates a creation, and then the created brings the creator into existence via it's power of conscious perception and contemplation

Summarily proves that your conjecture is not worth any body's attention.

1. You stated that the creator is the INITIATOR who INITIATES creation. This shows that you concede that the creator existed before the creation

2. You CONTRADICT yourself by stating that the creation (after it is initiated by the creator) BRINGS THE CREATOR INTO EXISTENCE.

This is a horrid and irretrievable contradiction as it envisages a creator being brought into existence AFTER it had already initiated the creation (which shows that it existed already before the creation!). Can i ask you how the creator initiated the craetion if it DID NOT EXIST at that point of initiation? Since according to you it could not exist without the cognition of created sentient beings.

Your posts are a comic relief.

Again in your response to Bastage you repeat that nothing can exist without recognition by sentient beings.

I repeat my earlier question to you; did the planet Neptune exist before humans discovered it?

Did uranium exist before humans discovered it?

Did the Andromeda galaxy exist before humans discovered it?

It seems that you do not read at all. I asked you these questions and you ignored them. Of course what these questions ineluctably demonstrate is that things exist OUTSIDE our perception. Thus our cognition is not central to the xistence of anything which is outside our perception. If this is the case then your surmise that God cannot exist without our cognition is bunkum.

Again - In your response to me you described the creator as the "initiator" of the creation.

Then in your response to Bastage you asserted that the creator is only the imagination of created beings.

Which is it?

LOL!

I repeat; you are violently confused and I sincerely warn you to be careful of your sanity. I mean this in a sincere way because I have been there before and I can tell you that you are leading yourself to a state wherein you will become existentially challenged. You will snap. Seriously.

Deep Sight:

@ Jenwitemi - This quote from YOU -

In any creative process, there is always the creator and the created, right? First, the creator initiates a creation, and then the created brings the creator into existence via it's power of conscious perception and contemplation

Summarily proves that your conjecture is not worth any body's attention.

You see? This is why i said that you are not perceptive at all. You have been debating so long with one dimensional people like atheists and henotheists that their one-dimensionality has rubbed off on you and you have become one dimensional like them. You debate with blood rushing to your head, and thus, you can't contemplate with clarity.

My responses should have informed you already what my points are. When i talked about the symbiotic dance of creation between the creator and the created, when did i ever alluded to the created coming first before the creator? My arguement is based on the clear logical truth that;

1) creation qualifies any being as a creator. No being can be called a creator(no matter how powerful) without having created something.
2)Sentience can and does bestow upon any being the capability to create. That means, humans are sentient, thus, they do create as well.
3)We humans bring God to life IN THIS PLANE OF EXISTENCE CALLED THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE WHERE IT ACTUALLY COUNT, AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME, AT LEAST FOR US. We bring God into existence on earth by breeding it and holding it in our collective consciousness via our beliefs, and the ability to contemplate abstractly.

Are you getting it now or you are getting more confused?

Deep Sight:


2. You CONTRADICT yourself by stating that the creation (after it is initiated by the creator) BRINGS THE CREATOR INTO EXISTENCE.

No contradiction. See above.

Deep Sight:

This is a horrid and irretrievable contradiction as it envisages a creator being brought into existence AFTER it had already initiated the creation (which shows that it existed already before the creation!). Can i ask you how the creator initiated the craetion if it DID NOT EXIST at that point of initiation? Since according to you it could not exist without the cognition of created sentient beings.

Another question to prove your lack of depth. You will need to change your username to "shallow sight".
1) An entity becomes a creator by initiating the creation.
2) The creation(the physical universe, for example) in turn, then bestows the qualification of the title "creator" on that entity.
3)The sentient qualities of beings within that creation then recreate that creator entity(in varyingly diverse versions) and maintain it's continuing existence in their collective consciousness(which is a legitimate act of creation). What do you think that we are both doing right now with this debate? We are keeping and maintaining the existence of this creator being in our consciousness. That is the gift and power of sentience.

This is not about who created whom first. The symbiotic dance of creation between the creator and the created? The single integrated entity? I thought you would have enough contemplative depth to have seen that already. I see that you've lost any depth that you think you might have. Stay off debating too long with shallow minded folks, it has rubbed off on you.

Deep Sight:

Your posts are a comic relief.

No. Your lack of understanding which belies your username is the comic relief. Change it to "Shallow Sight" for now, until you regain back your depth. And stay off debating with henotheists and atheists for too long.

Deep Sight:

Again in your response to Bastage you repeat that nothing can exist without recognition by sentient beings.

Yes. We bring things into existence on this plane through our ability to perceive, imagine or conceptualize. That is our gift of sentience. Without our ability to consciously perceive, there will only be abstract fields of possibilities. This is well confirmed by the principles of quantum physics.

Tell me something, how did you get your concept of who or what God is, sir?

Deep Sight:

I repeat my earlier question to you; did the planet Neptune exist before humans discovered it?

Did uranium exist before humans discovered it?

Did the Andromeda galaxy exist before humans discovered it?

Very straightforward answer here. They did not exist until sentient beings(astronomers) consciously perceived them through the telescope. And here is something even crazier for you to contemplate on, in the instant that any astronomer stop peeping into a telescope, whatever was seen instantly seizes to exist, until that astronomer looks into the telescope once again. We create through conscious perceptions, that is the gift of sentience.Can you, sir, prove to me that the andromeda galaxy exists without pulling up a site with taken images of that said galaxy? Man, i could go real deep into this perception thing, but you would not be able to follow, so let me stop here.

Deep Sight:

It seems that you do not read at all. I asked you these questions and you ignored them.

No, you do not read with any depth whatsoever. You have ignored a lot of the things that i worte as well, or you just simply blocked them out because you cannot produce any counter arguements to topple them, so you pick on the ones you think you have chances with.

Deep Sight:

Of course what these questions ineluctably demonstrate is that things exist OUTSIDE our perception. Thus our cognition is not central to the xistence of anything which is outside our perception. If this is the case then your surmise that God cannot exist without our cognition is bunkum. 

As i have said before, i meant God not able to exist within our collective perceptions, which is this universe, without our sentience. Can you prove that God exists outside your perception? Can you even contemplate upon the concept of a creator being without your sentience? Have you ever seen God outside your own perception?
As of now, the INSIDE of our perception is what counts and not what is outside of it. Now, prove to me, if you can, how God can exist within our collective perception(which is what counts now) without us, without our sentience having anything to do with it.

This is why i said that you lack contemplative depth. Please, change your username to "Shallow Sight", henceforth. You have demonstrated that you no longer have any depth. You have lost it all. Stay away from debating with henos and atheists until further notice, perhaps you might get your contemplative depth back by then to stop you from misreading posts.

Deep Sight:

Again - In your response to me you described the creator as the "initiator" of the creation.

Yes.

Deep Sight:

Then in your response to Bastage you asserted that the creator is only the imagination of created beings.

Which is it?

LOL! 

Both. The symbiotic dance of creation? The creation being an ongoing process that never ends? As a one-dimensional thinker that you are, you cannot fathom. As far as deep contemplation capability is concerned, you are just as bad as both the henos and the atheists, if not worse.Did i say that you should change your username to "shallow sight"?

Concerning your our own concept of what the creator is, please can you tell me where that concept resides, if not in YOUR HEAD? You know, your imagination? Damn, you are a big disappointment. And i thought you knew.

If you could say this regarding cosmic bodies -

They did not exist until sentient beings(astronomers) consciously perceived them through the telescope. And here is something even crazier for you to contemplate on, in the instant that any astronomer stop peeping into a telescope, whatever was seen instantly seizes to exist, until that astronomer looks into the telescope once again.

Then I give up; you are entirely and irretrievably lost in your delusions if you imagine that the Planet Neptune or the Andromeda galaxy keep popping into and out of existence based on which tiny human being on earth is looking at them through a telescope.

Are you alright?

Please go and study astronomy and the age of these cosmic bodies ol boy. You have NO idea what they are. You state to me that other galaxies do not exist unless we are observing them. I am sorry, but that is simply stark illiteracy.

Maybe when you lock up your bedroom and go out to work, the bedroom ceases to exist since no one is observing it. According to you, it pops back into existence once you return to open the door. Bravo! Aladdin in the Arabian Cave of Wonders!

Na wah for you. You need a medical check-up.

Enjoy, Alice in Wonderland. I am surprised i ever bothered with your delusions.

Shallow Sight, that is quantum physics, it is way over your head. Have you ever heard of the "observer effect" in science? It says that, "nothing exists until it is observed by the consciousness of sentient beings". 

Deep Sight:

If you could say this regarding cosmic bodies -

Then I give up; you are entirely and irretrievably lost in your delusions if you imagine that the Planet Neptune or the Andromeda galaxy keep popping into and out of existence based on which tiny human being on earth is looking at them through a telescope.

I am very fine.

Deep Sight:

Are you alright?

Astronomy is full of cosmic bodies that were observed and studied by sentient beings via high powered telescope, with emphasis on OBSERVATION. Without observation, there would have been no astronomy, because there would've been no cosmic bodies and galaxies to study, in the first place. Yeah, conscious observation is an act of creation. But this is way over your head, so forget it.

Deep Sight:

Please go and study astronomy and the age of these cosmic bodies ol boy. You have NO idea what they are. You state to me that other galaxies do not exist unless we are observing them. I am sorry, but that is simply stark illiteracy.

The illiteracy is from your side. Get yourself acquainted with the principles of quantum physics, first, before you start disgracing yourself here.

Deep Sight:

I am sorry, but that is simply stark illiteracy.

EXACTLY! Now you are finally getting it! The scientifically proven "Measurement Problem", or the "Observer Effect". Nothing happens or exist until it is being observed by consciousness.

You want some links? Here is one,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9bVd3BspIQ&feature=related.

This one talks about the "measurement problem",
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJThU1jDT2o

Deep Sight:

Maybe when you lock up your bedroom and go out to work, the bedroom ceases to exist since no one is observing it. According to you, it pops back into existence once you return to open the door. Bravo! Aladdin in the Arabian Cave of Wonders!

Shallow Sight, watch those clips and step up into the 21st century, you this carrier of 19th/20th century old informations.

The dream is dreaming itself.

BTW, the opening post was referring to the henotheistic version of the creator known as Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah/Jesus, etc., not the deistic version, so shallow sight was not even supposed to be in this discussion because he is not a henotheistic, as far as i know.

If shallow sight had cared to look at the OP before jumping in with both feet and blood flooding his head, he would've seen that i used the male pronoun "HE" to indicate which version i was referring to. As far as i know, only the henos use male pronoun for their version of the creator. Perhaps the deists refer to their own version as a "HE" too, i can't tell.

But overarching fact remains that without the diverse concepts of a creator entity being put into the consciousness of mankind and maintained there through mostly religions (seems like that is THE central task of theirs), man would have thought far far far less of such an entity and simply just go through their existence like animals do, which equates to non-existence of GOD. What is absent in man's collective consciousness simply does not exist in this plane of physical reality, even if this existence is a reality outside of it.

This is why sentience is an absolutely crucial quality of mankind in this physical universe, because it bestows the ability of abstract thinking that makes us able to contemplate not only the self-existence, but the idea of a creator, thus bringing in all kinds of versions of the creator into our consciousness on our own, hence the act of creation of all kinds of versions of almighty creators in our own existential reality.

Atheists would rather not have such a concept shoved into their collective consciousness, directly or indirectly. Which means that left to them, God would not have existed in the collective consciouness of mankind, which would then mean that God would not have existed at all in this physical existence.

Jenwitemi:

Shallow Sight, that is quantum physics, it is way over your head. Have you ever heard of the "observer effect" in science. It says that, "nothing exists until it is observed by the consciousness of sentient beings".

I laugh! Perhaps you are one of those goons who hold on to a warped understanding of quantum physics to assert that virtual particles are evidence that things may emerge out of nothing. I don't have the energy to engage your hallucinations. Please review the discussion on virtual particles here -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-445085.96.html

Deep Sight:

I laugh! Perhaps you are one of those goons who hold on to a warped understanding of quantum physics to assert that virtual particles are evidence that things may emerge out of nothing. I don't have the energy to engage your hallucinations. Please review the discussion on virtual particles here -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-445085.96.html

So, your own understanding of quantum mechanics isn't warped, abi? Okay, let us have it. Perhaps i should retract that demand because i can't stomach those silly equations of yours.

Deep Sight:

I don't have the energy to engage your hallucinations.

You meant to say that you have nothing worth anything to counter?

@ porter & all who share your line of reasoning.
Who are these that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Wilt thou disannul God's judgment or make void His words? wilt thou condemn the Lord, that thou mayest be righteous? Where were you before thou was born? Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth & despiseth his God/Creator, let him answer it! You better be wise and repent of your sins before judgement catch up with you. But if you refused God's provision for your salvation through the grace that is in Christ Jesus, you live to remember today that I told you and you'll definately regrett it!
Best regards,

darasam4u:

@ porter & all who share your line of reasoning.
Who are these that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Wilt thou disannul God's judgment or make void His words? wilt thou condemn the Lord, that thou mayest be righteous? Where were you before thou was born? Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth & despiseth his God/Creator, let him answer it! You better be wise and repent of your sins before judgement catch up with you. But if you refused God's provision for your salvation through the grace that is in Christ Jesus, you live to remember today that I told you and you'll definately regrett it!
Best regards,

Can ye translate this gibberish into the modern language of english? Thank you, heartily.

na wa ooooo.
    i dont know how som people think, it is the in the bible that before the heavens and the earth were created God has been existing. it is in genesis in case you have not seen it before, please do some research. if you have any other point to prove that God cannot exist without us, i am waiting.
 
luv,
small man.

small man:

na wa ooooo.
    i dont know how som people think, it is the in the bible that before the heavens and the earth were created God has been existing. it is in genesis in case you have not seen it before, please do some research. if you have any other point to prove that God cannot exist without us, i am waiting.
 
luv,
small man.

Fair enough. But who wrote the creation story in the bible? Man. Who believed in the genesis creation story? Man. Who brought the genesis creation story into man's consciousness and maintained it there? Man. Are you getting it? As far as this reality is concerned, we(man) bring God to life here. Can you dispute that?

Jenwitemi: A one thousand and one question. Can "he"? I know that we wouldn't have existed without "him", but i make the claim that it goes the other way, too, and i am not being arrogant here.

Ergo, you can't exist without your image. Or a creator can't exist without its creations.

Where is Jenwitemi?

manmustwac:
very good points but your questions give the impression that man created god inn his own image

that is what it is exactly