ishmael:

Yes most people who develop high BP in Nigeria are holders of HND certificates.

To be serious, I understand you guys position. I was angered when my elder brother was refused admission for MSc in a london university here because he holds an HND. I was angry because I know what he is worth in the academic scene. He was denied just because of nomenclature. Once HND is re-named, they would then qualify for immediate masters degree without going through the PGD route. Nomenclature, that's the word.

If it is in engineering. Nigerian HND can be allowed into Masters 1&2 at Cranfield University (silsoe). But Engineering Technology program is diffrent from Engineering in course content. You will need a PGD to cross to another field.

Some UK universities will give you direct Msc with your HND if you have a CGPA of atleast 3.0 out of 4 points and a minimum credit load of 120. They will take it as the equivalent of a honors Degree; after all in some countries like Ireland an Advanced Diploma is higher than a bachelor's Degree and they still recognise it, while in Nigeria an Advanced Diploma is not up to a Higher National Diploma or Bachelor's Degree.

The controversy between HND graduates and university graduate was unnecessary. The quality of HND graduates is as good as that of the university graduates, but insisted that Nigeria was getting it wrong because everybody who passed through OND wants to acquire HND education.
The British Government scrapped HND education years back, because the purpose for it was defeated.
In 1977, there was an attempt by the Federal Government of Nigeria to scrap HND. The intention then was to create a pool of technicians and separate the technicians from the engineers. The mistake government made then was to implement it hurriedly, and then to replace HND with a lower certificate called the National Technical Certificate (NTC).
The students, he said, however, resisted it because they applied for HND programme and not NTC, which was believed to be of lower status. This, he added, was about 30 years ago. The government idea then was good but the approach was wrong

I am glad this kind of discussion is on ground. I am an undergraduate in the department of Chemical Engineering, UNILAG. I had distinction(OND) from FP, Ilaro and distinction(HND) from the former YABATECH.

My people, I want you all to know that there is a wide difference between someone who is sleeping and another who is dead completely.

What I percieve as the major difference is that in the Polytechnic, lecturers spoil students . They go to the library, search for all relevant materials, form notes/handouts and give to students as ready-made lecture notes. Another thing I observed during my Polytechnic days is spirit with which most students take their studies. Many of them were eyeing university education thereby having divided attention. This most of the time, resulting in poor academics performance, not only in terms of exams but also in IQ.
Despite this, we must know that there are thousand of Polytechnic graduate who are one million percent better than most of the UNiversities'.

However, for speedy economic development, Polytechnic education can not lead NIgeria to anywhere. That is one of the reasons I needed to apply for UME, got my good results and consequently gained admission to my first choice couse at UNILAG.

But for time costraint, i would av continued, See you later

Point of correction you had NATIONAL DIPLOMA     ND   NOT ORDINARY NATIONAL DIPLOMA  OND. And most of the lecturers Pass grade in their degrees. No good lecturer would wait to lecture at the polytechnic.

Thank you "My papa's land". Everyone is aware that when you are online especially in cyber cafe, you are bound to make any kind of typing error. Howeva I thank u for your constructive contribution.

As a continuation of my previous input in this forum, I would never advise anyone to attend any Polytechnic in Nigeria. I am greatful to the GOVERNING COUNCIL of UNILAG for introducing Post Jamb. I am also glad that other universities have taken after UNILAG.

Universities are meant for good students. If you know you are academically blessed, then you are advised to go to  any of the universities around. PostJamb is here to pave ways for good students.

Just be ready to research and make impact in your selected path. IF YOU WANT GOOD FUTURE FOR YOURSELF, PLEASE DO GO TO UNIVERSITY OOOOOOOO.  And if all you want is no less than international exposure and solid academic background, then it will be better for you to attend UNILAG-ENGINEERING/LAW/EDUCATION/SCIENCES/MEDICINE/PHARMACY/ARTS/ and MANAGEMENT. Au revoir.

OND was used in the 70's and later ND in 80's so not a mistake. Thank you. I am a PhD holder already. I never had Bachelors. so also Dimkpa who is overseas. So many liboratory technologist are outside doing their Higher Degrees. Nigerian Graduate are chasing shadows.

@HND-holder

May God help HND holders in Nigeria, because the hatred is becoming more intense by the day.

E-chemical:

What I percieve as the major difference is that in the Polytechnic, lecturers spoil students . They go to the library, search for all relevant materials, form notes/handouts and give to students as ready-made lecture notes.

And who told you that university lecturers don't give notes/handouts to their students?? please speak on what you know very well and not what you don't know.

Some micro chips carrier will not work but depend on notes/handout in the University too.

Hnd-holder:

Some micro chips carrier will not work but depend on notes/handout in the University too.

Don't mind that guy that does nt know what he is saying, calling polytechnics glorified technical schools. He has forgotten that most polytechnics are even bigger and better equipped than many universities. Is kadpoly not bigger and better than many universities?? is YabaTech not bigger and better than so many universities?? is that not why they want to convert them to universities? Kadpoly has been helping FUT minna to run some of it's technical courses like BEd (Tech). Yabatech has been doing same too for some universities.

Imagine that

i just saw in one of the dailies now, Daily trust that FG has reversed the merger abi na acquisition of universities and polytechnics. That they want polytechnics to remain as independent institutions and to run MTech and PhD programs.

Hey that is great what date and what page?

Hnd-holder:

Hey that is great what date and what page?

Today, Wednesday 27/06/2007. Page 3.

@HND-holder

Any latest news about HND and polytechnic education in Nigeria?

Abi government don forget the problems of polytechnics and HND holders all of a sudden?

it was unfortunate that i was not part of the debate and when it died down but permit to bring up again the issue.

i was particularly appalled by the responses from hnd-holder who said hnd in nigreria is equivalent to some postgraduate in some other countries, i will like him to supply proof. also he claims a phd, did he get that from the polythenic.

he even said a hnd holder cannot become a rector in a polythenic; imagine a system discriminating against itself and you dare say it is better than the university it embraces.

pls don't decieve yourself does making ddecisions for or against the hnd are all university graduate. the hnd themselves has no say in this matter

my proposal is that hnd should be scrapped but nd retained. hnd has taken us no where and it will be relevant in the future educational system. you can be sure of that cos those making the decision are not hnd holders.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

richness:

it was unfortunate that i was not part of the debate and when it died down but permit to bring up again the issue.

i was particularly appalled by the responses from hnd-holder who said hnd in nigreria is equivalent to some postgraduate in some other countries, i will like him to supply proof. also he claims a phd, did he get that from the polythenic.

he even said a hnd holder cannot become a rector in a polythenic; imagine a system discriminating against itself and you dare say it is better than the university it embraces.

please don't decieve yourself does making ddecisions for or against the hnd are all university graduate. the hnd themselves has no say in this matter

my proposal is that hnd should be scrapped but nd retained. hnd has taken us no where and it will be relevant in the future educational system. you can be sure of that because those making the decision are not hnd holders.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

Well said my brother. Those heading polytechnics, those making decision for/against polytechnics in nigeria are all university graduates. Until people who passed thru polytechnics (holders of HND certificate) start taking decision for polytechnics there wont be any significant progress in the polytechnics.

The "" in HND should be changed from Diploma to Degree. Instead of Higher National Diploma it should be Higher National Degree; may be that could help, and make people respect products of nigerian polytechnics.

Just a suggestion sha.

When we are discussing issues like this,lets be careful and avoid sentiments and analyse issues.
I am contributing as a holder of both certificate (HND and BSc certificate )in one of the best polytechnic and university in Nigeria.
I want to say here that both certificate holder experience almost the same rigour but in a different form,we are only overblowing the Bsc certificate,look,HND or Bsc cert. is a function of what the person is made of.
There is no scientific proof to say that all polytechic graduates are dull or can not pass UME.
You can not say that all University graduates are better than HND holders.therefore,it is only the white paper establishing polytechic that is standing as a monster against them because as at the time YABATECH was to be established in 1948,little did the policy makers knew that it would hunt them,moreso polyechic discrimination never set in until 1995 when the number of graduates grew and theres need to reduce applicants by any means.
Can you remember that even few years back,some corporate bodies discriminate against state universities,so what are u talking about?
Are we saying state Universities too are inferior?
Dear nairalanders,What is the essense or a certificate holder that is not useful to the economy?yet he claims he/she is a degree holder.
Dont be deceived ,think of what you can do with the little you acquire from Poly or uni and leave the so called policy makers that does not know what they want.
The candid suggestion is that both certificate holders should be given equal chance to proof themselves either either by practicals or a test,lets avoid sheilding one certificate holder for another.
After all keen compettition bring out the best from the competitors

@ayotunde

Thanx for your contribution. It is only people like you that have attended both schools that can tell us the truth.

Please forgive me if this has already been mentioned somewhere before.

As far as I can see, your HND was very much similar to the type I did in Scotland at the start of the 1970's.
Entry qualifications was a minimum of 1 'A' level or 4 'O' levels or an 'Ond'. It was tri-semester lasting 3 years - 16 weeks industrial training was manditory during the 2 following summer seasons i.e. 3 weeks personal summer vacation per year.

I studied Hotel Management and, at that time, there were frankly no degrees in Hotel Management around with the exception of 'Surrey'. In the latter case the intake  was so small it certainly did not satisfy the needs of the entire UK!!! We too were given the impression that it was an alternative degree. At the time it was also not possible to change course mid-stream or have the HND counting towards a degree ( top-up). That is a recent development.

From the research which I did on the subject of HND/BSC , I found out that the ACADEMIC value of an HND was two thirds of a standard degree. This is why the two educational courses have always been seen to clash with each other. A degree course tended to consist of a more theoretical approach whilst the HND a 'hands-on', profession orientated one. The original thought of a university was to study a subject with no real 'job' content. If one studied linguistics, mathematics, chemistry, physics etc.etc.  there was no pure career 'training'. At bachelor level they demanded a further course e.g. teacher's certificate, to make a career out of it. Similarly with chartered qualifications. The higher you qualified at a university, the more specific the profession seemed to become. A physician or dental student  'just' learned the basics up until bachelor level and at masters or higher, he/she became more and more involved with a specific  'profession' in mind.

In Europe we have now Credit Points: 180 for first academic degree (3 years); 300 for masters (5 years) and so on . Now, a 3 year HND  course is valued at 120 academic points (2/3) of a BA. Now one may ask - what about the other training involved which is not counted?

If one wants to study mathematics at a university surely one does not start with basic arithmetic but at a level which is a continuation from 'A' Level Maths. If one studies English as a subject at university one does not start learning what a verb is but rather dissecting the language/literature etc. at a very high level. Now how is it with an OND/HND? What particular prerequisites does one have to obtain in order to follow the OND/HND course? In reality very little. A medical student may require  'A' levels in physics, chemistry, biology etc.  One cannot say that an HND is a 5 year course if an OND is just catching up with NEW subjects not based on previously learned subjects. Even the requirement of 1'A' level (not specified)  is not used for any continuation of the subject at that level. An architect student normally has to provide artistic capabilities, a musical student is expected to be able to read music and play an instrument. But that is perhaps where the real difference lies. At OND and HND levels there are generally no prerequisites required. So, with this example, we are learning a profession from scratch whilst at a university (in its original sense) should be a continuation, or development, of main subjects which one has already learned at school or has a good knowledge of.

This is what makes comparisons extremely difficult. Nowadays the NEW UNIVERSITIES are mid-stream in their teaching philosophies to the old HNDs and Degrees - a right soup of being neither one or the other. I have lived through many an education reform and sympathise with all the people who are left by the way-side as their qualifications are de-valued through new 'inventions' of up-grading!! Degree courses which start subjects from scratch e.g. optional languages (as one would learn at  junior school) are certainly not an improvement on any previous types of qualifications !!

@diplomand
You may be correct, but in Nigeria it is not like that. What you do in A-levels is similar to what you do in ND in poly. HND is much more advanced and higher than them. For you to do HND in nigeria you must have passed thru ND and that makes you as good as someone that did a Bsc course. During the ND and HND programs you offer some courses that people in the universities don't offer. I believe the polytechnic students study more than the university students in nigeria; except if the university curriculum would be jerked up. No university graduate has been able to tell us the difference between HND and Bsc.

Head of service of the Federation has been accused of not implimeting the Government directive. He want Dichotomy to continue Polytechnic student president open up.

Students want FG to abolish HND, degree dichotomy


National Association of Polytechnic Students (NAPS) has called on the Federal Government to eliminate the dichotomy between degree and Higher National Diploma (HND) holders as recommended by a committee set up by government.
President of the association Comrade Mustapha Tijjani who made the call in Kaduna said discriminating between university and polytechnic graduates is not healthy.
He also accused office of the Head of Civil Service of the Federation of tinkering with the original report which recommended the immediate abolishment of the dichotomy.
He said the allegedly altered report would soon be sent to acting President Goodluck Jonathan for ratification and implementation.
He therefore called on the acting president not to approve the retention of the existing dichotomy as canvassed by the office of the Head of Civil Service of the Federation.
He said the association will resist attempts by the office of the Head of Civil Service of the Federation to retain the dichotomy between HND and degree holders.

Point of correction, no longer Acting but president of the federal republic of Nigeria

This subject has been chewed to death by ALL countries in this world. Nigeria is no exception. Even in Germany there is a push from trade councils and chambers of commerce etc. to let those with an ISCED 5B level qualification be named 'Bachelor Professional'.

If some here would do their homework and find out what the difference is between an ISCED 5A and 5B level (easily found in internet) it would clear up a great deal of misunderstandings.

I can only repeat that every country, with a similar level to your own HND, is going through the same headaches as you are. There seems to be an assumption that it is your government's fault etc.etc. This is an international phenomenon of trying to harmonise education e.g. academic versus technical/professional courses !!!

If you required the same amount of 'A' levels to start your 5 year HND course as with a degree course, I would say there was case for concern. As far as I remember one started quite young with an OND course and progressed to HND level. So the OND or an 'A' level + 'O' levels became compatable to start the HND course. In reality,
therefore, the HND was not a 5 year course but a 3 year one. The entry level/requirements was less than that generally required for universities.

As mentioned previously there are international educational points given for all levels which is a fair system. Nevertheless, I would like to add that the 'Grandfather Law' should exist not to devalue those who have achieved the HND in the past for certain positions which are now demanding degrees.

http://thenationonlineng.net/web2/articles/47912/1/Polytechnic-graduates-protest-discrimination/Page1.html

Polytechnic graduates protest discrimination•
By Adegunle Olugbamila
•
When members of ‘the Nigerian Association of Technologist in Engineering (NATE) converged on the Federal Institute of Industrial Research, Oshodi (FIIRO) to inaugurate the Lagos chapter of the body, last Saturday, the event, which featured among other things the induction of some members and inauguration of the chapter’s executives, did not leave out their age-long agitation. They urged the government to remove the career ceiling for technologists in the civil service. Technologists at present cannot rise beyond Grade Level 15 while their university counterparts who, according to NATE, contribute less in terms of value to the economy, can move up to Grade Level 16 in the state and federal civil services
.
This dichotomy is ‘man’s inhumanity to man’, said NATE National President, Sir Leo Okereke; adding that the nation’s quest to be among the top 20 countries of the world by 2020 will remain a mirage if polytechnic graduates are still discriminated against in the civil service.
Okereke urged his colleagues to use the platform to launch renewed agitation for the sake of undergraduates studying in polytechnics across the country, who may make a foray into the civil service only to find their careers ‘handcuffed’ due to the ‘virus’ called GL 15.
Ahead of the event last Saturday, NATE had resolved to pass the baton to polytechnic students who are victims of the imbalance. Today, polytechnic students under the aegis of the National Association of Polytechnic Students (NAPS) plan a protest to compel the Federal Government to go beyond mere pronouncements in ensuring that discrimination becomes a thing of the past.
The students union presidents of the 21 Federal Government, 38 state and 41 private polytechnics nationwide will lead others in the protest to the Education Minister, Prof Ruqayyat Rufa’i and her counterpart in the Ministry of Information, Prof Dora Akunyili.
NAPS has also arranged to meet President Goodluck Jonathan and visit the National Assembly, which would be having a session same day.
"This fight " Okereke said at last Saturday’s programme, "started a long time and some people are tired of the fight; but we are just rekindling the fight and the polytechnic students who should benefit from this exercise are going on a demonstration in Abuja next week (this week) on this same issue. It is unfortunate that, in Nigeria, nobody is asking you what you can do with your hands but your certificates, that’s why certificates are being purchased right left and centre."
This issue, however, was to become the fulcrum of NATE’s deliberations as some members expressed grief at how the careers of their colleagues in the civil service had been pegged because they are graduates of polytechnics. Their fear is that if this ceiling is not removed, it will result in low morale among polytechnic undergraduates who will find themselves in the same shoes tomorrow, compelling them not to give their best and slowing down the technological development of the country.
They also say it would encourage the certificate syndrome in Nigeria which elevates mediocrity over ability.
The NATE members contend that the Vision 2020 can only be achieved if the dichotomy between polytechnic and university education is bridged.
Of all the testimonies heard that day, that of Rufai Muhammed was the most pathetic. A past National President of NATE, Muhammed told the gathering that his experience as a technologist in the civil service forced him to forbid his five children from attending polytechnic.
"I am a product of the Yaba College of Technology. I graduated there 43 years ago, but because of the experience in the civil service, today, I can say I did not allow any of my five children to pass through the polytechnic. I do not want their careers stalled while their mates with university degrees move up the ladder fast," he said.
ASUP National PRO Adesoji Adetola Senbanjo holds the government responsible for the development.
"When the government said students with only four credits are eligible for admission into polytechnics while five credits are for admission into the university, little did they know that, from that point, they had created the dichotomy," he said.
He also holds the government culpable for its failure to realise the different roles both institutions serve.
"Our roles in polytechnics and universities are different. While universities thrive in the realm of academics which involves propounding theories, polytechnics thrive in the practical aspect of whatever is being discovered."
He argued that while National Diploma graduates of polytechnics should be regarded as middle-level manpower, the Higher National Diploma is equivalent to a Bachelor degree hence, holders should be allowed to acquire a Masters in technology."
The implication, Senbanjo said, is that the dichotomy will give more strength to the universities while killing the interest among those who aspire for polytechnic education.
"Another implication is that the demand for varsity education will continue to rise, while that for polytechnic will continue to dwindle. See, all of us are already seeing the effect on the technological development of this country. It is the polytechnics that will drive our technology, not the universities."
Despite plans to upgrade some polytechnics to degree-awarding institutions, Okereke argued that it is needless considering that the problem is a result of Nigeria’s fixation with certificates.
"Some of our demands have been met because polytechnics will start awarding B.Tech. But this is unnecessary. It is the over-emphasis on certificates that resulted to this. If polytechnics start awarding degrees, it’s okay. They can even go ahead and get Ph.D, but whatever they acquire, we should de-emphasise certificates and emphasise ability.
"Because of Nigeria’s technological advancement, the country has not come to terms with how best to use the technologist. It’s a reflection of our technological background," Sebanjo said.
Reacting to the issue, Lagos State Polytechnic SUG president, Ajibike Taofeek Babajide, said it was time polytechnic students took their destiny in their hands as they are tired of the discrimination in the labour market.
"When we compete with our colleagues from the universities, employers look down on us, yet most of us from the polytechnics have the practical knowledge and can do better than university graduates.
"The Federal Government has stipulated this before, but it is like there are elements frustrating our moves. This is what we intend to get rid of on Thursday (today) as we want to force the Federal Government to let it reflect in the budget," he said
Still on the protest today, NAPS National PRO Comrade Ezeilo Uche said over 2,000 students are expected to feature in the protest which he said would be non-violent.
"Everything is in order," Uche told our reporter on phone. "We are also involving security personnel because we want the protest to be non-violent. We just want to tell the government that polytechnic students are not happy over the unfair treatment. We are also involving colleges of education to join us in the fight while we implore Nigerians to give us their full support."

Gents,
I only got to see this today while looking for some research materials. I dare say I am so VERY disappointed in you Nigerians that call yourselves Bachelor's Degree and HND holders. If you cannot solve a simple case of mathematics like this, I wonder what you can technically solve. I quite agree with the chap who said in the Western world it is not about the write answers, however he must note that if the answer is wrong the application is flawwed and for business woners this will affect process design (cost?),defective products (cost?), need for re-work (cost?), e.t.c. it is all about the NGN & $!!!!
I suggest you guys do not show your ignorance in public like the guy who gave the quadratic problems and gave the wrong solution. Cry as you may, your answer is wrong - apply an elementary tool for solving quadratic equations like the 'almighty formula': for ax^2+bx+c=0,
then x=-b+/-(SQRT(b^2+4ac)/2a)
after you have re-arranged your equation thus:0.5YQ*2+NQ-K=0 and you will find out that your given answer is very wrong.

As for the disparity between HND and BSc et al, think about this: BSc et al deal with the 'cause' while HND deals with the 'effect' aspect. The roles of both set of professionals are clearly defined and the skill-sets required to play these roles are different though complimentary. In the field of engineering, the hierachy is as follows: Scientist(BSc)-Engineer(B.Eng)-Technologist(B.Tech/HND)-Technicians(HND/OND)-Craftsman(ONG/C&G). It is the application of the role defition and delineation of each sub-set that is really the problem. Also, the structure of the curriculae of our universities and polytechnics do not address these, while the manpower in both sets of institutions are very flawed in terms of competence.For example, for you to lecture in a Polytechnic, you should have had some years of hands-on experience, while a major requirement for university positions for lecturing should be some form of proven research work that is relevant to the business environment and industries.
'Till we look deeply into the quality of lecturers, curricula, infrastructures,e.t.c. we will not be able to change this disparity as the employers of labour know the limitations faced by both institutions.
Expect more from me on this topic in future.
Igho

Bill Gate is it Bsc or an Hnd holder ? Of what significant is any gradute that can not make thing work. It annoyed me seen some pple discriminating against Hnd cert. If God wil elivate you it does not consider ur cert. We have seen O'level cert.holder employing Bsc/Hnd holder,