Since the other "disbelief in God" thread ended in a stalemate(surprise, surprise!), i thought that this one could provide a true winner.

So this one is between christians and all the other unbelievers;

Topic of debate: IS YAHWEH THE CREATOR GOD?

If you are pro, state your case convincingly. If you are contra, present your argument against just as convincingly.

who else could have created the world?

It was brain washing,The white people that brought the religion to you dont know him .I  met a Nigerian the other  day who travelled all the way from nigeria to preach for the white man.He said the white people need deliverance.I just laughed.He his really silly.We have studied and we know .

noetic16:

who else could have created the world?

Anyone else, but definitely not old yahweh. He does not fit the bill at all. His CV stinks to high heavens, according to the OT bible. You want to state your case, or not?

^^^ oight state ur case

noetic16:

who else could have created the world?

Argument from personal incredulity - an argument from ignorance.

noetic16:

^^^ oight state your case

My case is short and straight to the point.

All the attributes of omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, omnibenevolence which are meant to be of the creator cannot be applied to Yahweh, because he falls way short of all these attributes, therefore he is an impostor who has falsely taken the position of the creator God.
In all his actions and deeds chronicled in the bible OT,  he displayed none of those attributes, so he cannot be the creator God. Above all, he is a "HE", meaning that he was either created by jewish male priests, or he was an evil, physical, male entity trying to play the creator.

Can you counter that? Over to you.

I dunno about Yahweh.

I know there is God. I know many civilizations recognize this and call him by many names. If you say God did something He didn't do, it doesn't make Him go poof! I as many people have issues with God of the OT but this is where my train of thoughts go radical.

You have just asserted that God should be benevolent, nice, awesome etc. But what if He is not? What if He is absolutely everything the OT says He is? I do not think this is true but I just wonder why people who say we project the worst of us on Him do not see the other side of this reasoning. He coulda swooped down and shown Himself and I can bet you that will stop all (or most of evil). I think God is so far above us that someone cutting off the neck of someone else, though evil, is so minute when compared to the bliss the dead person will enjoy. We eat animals, don't we? Nobody gets teary when eating a burger. You say they don't have souls. Who says so. How do you know? I don't think they have souls either but I just want people to stop thinking in a box. If you think God ought not to be anything but pure love, I'd tell you that if he were pure hate, the world would not be much worse. Some people like to use bacteria to describe how we must look to God or vice versa. Do you really care which pathogen is killing which? No you don't

So, I don't know if Yahweh is God but I know that there is God and He ought not to be changing His character all over the place. It makes Him hard to follow when He is murdering people in one page and delivering people in another.

Let me correct something, Yahweh is the hebrew name for God.
The revelation to Moses: at the burning bush, God introduced himself as "the God of your fathers" (Exo. 3:6). When Moses asked for a more specific name, he was told 'I AM WHO I AM" (Exo. 3:14); that is God was giving him the inner meaning of the name he already knew. Note: 'I AM' is the same in hebrew to Yahweh.
Several names are given to God at specific times to indicate some relevant aspect of his character, e.g A 60yr old woman that delivers can define God as a "God of possibilities".
Besides, all these arguments are of less or no importance since God has given us his only begotten son, JESUS who died for us to be save and unless a man be born again by confessing his sin and accepting Jesus, he can not see God. Our God is too supreme, his ways are not ours, so I don't like arguing the word of God, you can't just use human understanding.
In conclusion, I'm a Pentecostal christian, so I do not believe in christian science, 7 book of moses, evolution, teachings of Jehovah's witnesses, Eckankar, 7th day adventist, etc.

Acidosis:

Let me correct something, Yahweh is the hebrew name for God.

You have corrected nothing. Yahweh is the name of a jewish desert deity, not the name of the creator God. The creator God has no name.

Jenwitemi:

You have corrected nothing. Yahweh is the name of a jewish desert deity, not the name of the creator God. The creator God has no name.

you are definitely not a christian

You have corrected nothing. Yahweh is the name of a jewish desert deity, not the name of the creator God. The creator God has no name.

Let me correct something. Yahweh was probably the name of a midianite deity that moses encountered in the midianite desert. Moses then introduced Yahweh to the Jews as the God of the fathers though they didn't know of him. The reason they didn't know him was because he had dealt with them previously under another name.

Yahweh is the jewish version of God. He was created in the image of the jewish man as at then.
Also Allah is the arabic version of God.He was created in the image of the arabic man as at then.
Also Olodumare is the yoruba version of God.He was created in the image of the yoruba man as at then.

We can not really blame people for creating God in their own image then.It is simply because your explanation of anything will always be dependent on how much knowledge is available to you then.But we can blame people NOW for refusing to understand the dynamics of what was done then.

After creating God in man's image,it became easy to attribute lots of stories/myths/fantancies/halftruths/etc to him.

Let me correct something, Yahweh is the hebrew name for God.

Let me correct something. El is the hebrew (and Canaanite) name for God.

Also Olodumare is the yoruba version of God.He was created in the image of the yoruba man as at then.

though there are yoruba stories that involve eledumare, in fact yoruba try to refrain from giving him an image. He has no shrines, no idols, no representations and is not interacted with in a ritualistic way, whereas the lesser orisha have their shrines, images, rites and rituals.

^^ Deut. 5:9. I the lord (Yahweh) your God (Elohim) am a jealous God (El).
*according a bible dictionary*
In short, Yahweh is another name for God.

Pastor AIO:

Let me correct something.  El is the hebrew  (and Canaanite) name for God.  

though there are yoruba stories that involve eledumare, in fact yoruba try to refrain from giving him an image.  He has no shrines, no idols, no representations and is not interacted with in a ritualistic way, whereas the lesser orisha have their shrines, images, rites and rituals.  

Brilliant !
I was coming to that.

Many human settlements in the days of old faced constant threats from
1 nature -- in the form of unfavorable weather conditions,earthquake,volcano,wild animals,etc
2 other human settlements -- in the form of wars and colonization by other human communities because of competition for resources.

Those threats and the need to adapt to them made it necessary to create gods. The god created by a community is usually a supposed solution system to the problems of that community. A community situated near a river that can overflow usually worships the river. It was also common practice to have many gods in a community,each god being the solution system to a particular type of problem.

As civilizations evolved and became more complex,mankind gradually moved from the worshiping of inanimate objects on the ground to worshiping things they see or feel in the sky e.g sun,moon,stars,thunder,etc.Those became the best set of gods. However,they were still represented by inanimate objects or shapes on the ground.

As civilization continued to evolve,the jews were the first to conceive and worship a god that is completely not represented by any object or shape on the ground.This god they called God or Yahweh. Yahweh was the supposed solution system to the problems of the jewish community.

It is possible that other single individuals had earlier conceived of an imaginary GOD but the jews were the first to as a group embrace such a concept. The main difference between other imaginary God's and the jew's imaginary God is that the jewish version is supposedly "jealous" and you must not make use of any other "lesser" gods besides "Him".Hence the difference between Olodumare and Yahweh.

Did Yahweh create the universe?
Well,you can not say that the god of iron created and controls river nile,neither can the god of water control fire but an imaginary God can be given ANY attribute including the ability to create and control the universe and probably universes yet unknown. Yahweh was the best of all gods.

***** Remember to read in the context of god being a supposed solution system for the problems of man *****

Jenwitemi:

My case is short and straight to the point.

All the attributes of omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, omnibenevolence which are meant to be of the creator cannot be applied to Yahweh, because he falls way short of all these attributes, therefore he is an impostor who has falsely taken the position of the creator God.

Take the attributes one by one and show EXACTLY how He falls short of each of these attributes?

In all his actions and deeds chronicled in the bible OT,  he displayed none of those attributes, so he cannot be the creator God.

which actions? how? how does ur supposed inability to display these attributes make Him not to be the creator?

Above all, he is a "HE", meaning that he was either created by jewish male priests, or he was an evil, physical, male entity trying to play the creator.

what is this?

^^ Deut. 5:9. I the lord (Yahweh) your God (Elohim) am a jealous God (El).
*according a bible dictionary*
In short, Yahweh is another name for God.

There's something in english grammar call an article. the words A, The, An are articles in the english language.

An article (abbreviated art) is a word that combines with a noun to indicate the type of reference being made by the noun. Articles specify the grammatical definiteness of the noun, in some languages extending to volume or numerical scope. The articles in the English language are the, a, and an.

wikipedia

"I, Yahweh, your Elohim, am a jealous El. a is an indefinite article. It suggests that there are other El but yahweh is specifying that he is a jealous El as opposed to a non-jealous El, or an El that likes to share. It follows that Yahweh cannot just mean El (god), but rather is an El (god).

I'm sorry but I have to say this is just semantics. You cannot judge Hebrew by English lexis and structural terms. You may be correct but there's no basis for comparison moreso, this is a language that existed before reading and writing was common.

Validator has a valid point. But if man's perception of God is always subjective, does that not mean it would be impossible to ever really know Him then?

Pastor AIO made a point also that I find very cool. It's really worthy of note that the Yoruba God is as such and that is why a Yoruba Muslim or Christian has no trouble substituting Olodumare for Jesus or Allah as the case may be

I forgot. Some of you talk of Jews as if you talk of Aboriginals. Jews were not Jews until Jacob and their worship of God cannot be likened to idol worship for they had already seen the futility in that. As far as I'm concerned, when one has an abstract notion of a being that is all-powerful and beyond and doesn't liken it to an object or man, this concept is God. It matters not what you call Him or how you came about this concept. So in essence the reason why Jews are Jews is because they believe in one God and nothing else. Whether they attribute myths and legends to Him doesn't make Him non-existent. I don't think anyone has a true and accurate picture of God. But He is there. Simply there

vescucci:

I'm sorry but I have to say this is just semantics. You cannot judge Hebrew by English lexis and structural terms. You may be correct but there's no basis for comparison moreso, this is a language that existed before reading and writing was common.

Validator has a valid point. But if man's perception of God is always subjective, does that not mean it would be impossible to ever really know Him then?

Pastor AIO made a point also that I find very cool. It's really worthy of note that the Yoruba God is as such and that is why a Yoruba Muslim or Christian has no trouble substituting Olodumare for Jesus or Allah as the case may be

You will know the aspect of Him/Her/It that is relevant to you. You can Never fully know everything.

vescucci:

I forgot. Some of you talk of Jews as if you talk of Aboriginals. Jews were not Jews until Jacob and their worship of God cannot be likened to idol worship for they had already seen the futility in that. As far as I'm concerned, when one has an abstract notion of a being that is all-powerful and beyond and doesn't liken it to an object or man, this concept is God. It matters not what you call Him or how you came about this concept. So in essence the reason why Jews are Jews is because they believe in one God and nothing else. Whether they attribute myths and legends to Him doesn't make Him non-existent. I don't think anyone has a true and accurate picture of God. But He is there. Simply there

That is exactly the message I have been trying to pass.

I'm sorry but I have to say this is just semantics. You cannot judge Hebrew by English lexis and structural terms. You may be correct but there's no basis for comparison moreso, this is a language that existed before reading and writing was common.

I'm sorry but I have to say it is a lot more fundamental than semantics. It doesn't really matter the language it is a fact that something or someone can either be one of many of a generic type, or a specific one. Language tries to reflect this fact so that we can communicate what we see to others. My adidas trainers can be one of many footwear that lie on the bottom of my cupboard or it can be the only footwear I have. If you say,' that your adidas trainers is a filthy pair of shoes' that does not mean that adidas trainers is the only shoe that exists.

So in essence the reason why Jews are Jews is because they believe in one God and nothing else.

The Jews didn't believe that only one God existed (until about the time of isaiah) they just believed that Yahweh was the only God they would worship and that their Yahweh could kick the ass of any other God if he wanted to.

Lol. . .this thread reminds me of one of the most enthralling recent threads i did enjoy. . .

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-434436.0.html

This man, you dey try me. I go talk o! I go talk sotey you go begin cry for ya god. No push me o!

noetic16:

Take the attributes one by one and show EXACTLY how He falls short of each of these attributes?
which actions? how? how does your supposed inability to display these attributes make Him not to be the creator?

what is this?

vescucci:

I dunno about Yahweh.

I know there is God. I know many civilizations recognize this and call him by many names. If you say God did something He didn't do, it doesn't make Him go poof! I as many people have issues with God of the OT but this is where my train of thoughts go radical.

[b]You have just asserted that God should be benevolent, nice, awesome etc. But what if He is not? What if He is absolutely everything the OT says He is? I do not think this is true but I just wonder why people who say we project the worst of us on Him do not see the other side of this reasoning. He coulda swooped down and shown Himself and I can bet you that will stop all (or most of evil). I think God is so far above us that someone cutting off the neck of someone else, though evil, is so minute when compared to the bliss the dead person will enjoy. We eat animals, don't we? Nobody gets teary when eating a burger. You say they don't have souls. Who says so. How do you know? I don't think they have souls either but I just want people to stop thinking in a box. If you think God ought not to be anything but pure love, I'd tell you that if he were pure hate, the world would not be much worse. Some people like to use bacteria to describe how we must look to God or vice versa. Do you really care which pathogen is killing which? No you don't[/b]

So, I don't know if Yahweh is God but I know that there is God and He ought not to be changing His character all over the place. It makes Him hard to follow when He is murdering people in one page and delivering people in another.

And then when I tell him he's got nuggetts he'll think I'm kidding. This Vesc self!

vescucci:

I dunno about Yahweh.

I know there is God. I know many civilizations recognize this and call him by many names. If you say God did something He didn't do, it doesn't make Him go poof! I as many people have issues with God of the OT but this is where my train of thoughts go radical.

That there is a creator of the universe is not the point of dispute here. Perhaps we should quit using this english word, "GOD". It is a word that is so misused and bastardized, that it's use belittles the creator. The point of dispute is that YAHWEH, the tribal god of the jews, the OT god of wrath and genocide, IS NOT THE CREATOR. If this point is not so important, as you are trying to allude, then why is he being pushed down the throats of africans so vehemently by christianity?

vescucci:

You have just asserted that God should be benevolent, nice, awesome etc.

Most people do because the scriptures said so. Don't you? The least the creator can be is be all good, no? What we do not expect an all loving being to be, is to be genocidal in his dealings with his own supposed creations.

vescucci:

But what if He is not? What if He is absolutely everything the OT says He is?

Then he is a fake, a fraud.

vescucci:

I do not think this is true

You doubt the word of yahweh, the bible? It is written there, in black and white, that yahweh or jehovah was a malevolent and is still a malevolent entity who hates humans like pests.

vescucci:

but I just wonder why people who say we project the worst of us on Him do not see the other side of this reasoning. He coulda swooped down and shown Himself and I can bet you that will stop all (or most of evil).

This statement makes no sense whatsoever. Judging for the kind of entity yahweh was chronicled to be in the OT, do you think his presence on earth will ever stop evil? I don't think so. Quite on the contrary even.

vescucci:

I think God is so far above us that someone cutting off the neck of someone else, though evil, is so minute when compared to the bliss the dead person will enjoy. We eat animals, don't we? Nobody gets teary when eating a burger. You say they don't have souls. Who says so. How do you know? I don't think they have souls either but I just want people to stop thinking in a box. If you think God ought not to be anything but pure love, I'd tell you that if he were pure hate, the world would not be much worse. Some people like to use bacteria to describe how we must look to God or vice versa. Do you really care which pathogen is killing which? No you don't

So, I don't know if Yahweh is God but I know that there is God and He ought not to be changing His character all over the place. It makes Him hard to follow when He is murdering people in one page and delivering people in another.

I don't really know what you are on about here, vescucci. All i can see is that you are just trying to make an excuse for a being who has failed to live up to the billings from his creations as an all loving being. God is good, all the time! That is what those who worship him say every single time. Well, he is not. He was evil most times in the OT bible.
Besides, when did i ever say that animals don't have souls? You definitely did not hear that from jenwitemi. Every single living thing has it's own life force that is behind it's animation throughout it's lifespan. Even unicellular animals like amoebas have souls.

Jenwitemi, i have expected this topic from u long ago. Nice to bring it up. I will contribute little now&when i return to Lag from Abj on Monday, we'll continue.
Since u said the bible God is different from ur 'true God' tell us the characteristics of the God the creator.

toba:

Jenwitemi, i have expected this topic from u long ago. Nice to bring it up. I will contribute little now&when i return to Lag from Abj on Monday, we'll continue.
Since u said the bible God is different from your 'true God' tell us the characteristics of the God the creator.

Thank you for asking. I will suggest the following attributes;
1)It is the life force as well as the unifying source of all it's creation.
2)It has no chosen people. All creation is chosen by it, and as a result, all are equally special.
3)It is all knowing or omniscient.
4)It is omnipresent/ all present. It is everywhere all the time and at the same time.
5)All powerful/ omnipotent.
6)It is omni-benevolent or all loving.
7)It is the unifying force of all creation, and not the source of separation that we have been led to believe.
It has no name, except the names given to it by humans on their own volition.
9)It is an egoless entity that is totally transcendent of any human ego generated emotions like wrath, jealousy, parochialism, egocentrism, arrogance, etc.
10) It demands no worship or praise because it is transcendent of any desire for such.
11)It has no gender(which why i am using "IT" for it because).
12) It's inability to have an enemy because of it's transcendence through it's nature of egolessness.

These are the attributes of what i consider to be the true creator God of the universe. But let us start with this list. Can you let us know which of these attributes did the jewish tribal deity fulfill?

@jewitemi. In the OT of the bible they believe that all things i mean everything that comes to them is from God which is not , they make order and says is from God until JESUS CAME TO SHOWS US THE WAY.the people of the old testament believe in justice and vengeance God and taught that was how God was, until JESUS came to the true love God , what do you think when the people of the Isrealite call the ten commandment , they call it the law of Mosses why not law of God.

Now I understand you perfectly jenwitemi. I should have asked you what you believed in the first place instead of being a pain in the backside.

I'll just say this though. Your means of determining these attributes of the creator God are no different from the fella that said a burning bush was talking to him. If you say it is all-loving, I want to know the consequence of that love since this world sucks. Then if it doesn't care to be worshiped or even acknowledged, what is the point of its existence? It would seem we have more purpose than it.

I respect your views entirely but I will discontinue with trying to pick your brain because we won't agree on much and in this section that is cause for serious alarm. I wish to make no nemesis. I might read though.

JeSoul! Chai! Wetin I do you na? I be the altar boy among cardinals here o. Wetin I know?