vaxx:
A car thus....even artificial intelligence car had perfected the skills without the need of an operator.


A computerised car that can drive on its own is available even without operator

Hmm! Wiggle!

budaatum:

". Throw vaxx's able to swim baby in the river and I honestly believe it will drown.

.

Babies (human infants) have a net positive buoyancy. That means if you throw them in the water, they will tend to float instead of sink. And likewise Baby also don't have an innate fear of water. That fear is learned. So all things being equal, they will splash around and find themselves moving. Remember that infants spent almost 9 months floating in water/blood, so it's not a new experience

budaatum:

Hmm! Wiggle!

pardon.....

Martinez19:
You need to make a distinction between the ability to kick a ball and being a professional and skillful player and also raw talent and refined talent.

The ability to kick a ball(be empathy and compassionate) is inborn for normal people where as a professional level of play(what we show empathy and compassion to) is developed and learned. Empathy and compassion is inborn but through reasoning, we decided what to show show empathy and compassion to.

Good point @bolded.

When I was a Muslim, whenever we want to slaughter a ram in the festive period, I feel bad and empathetic towards the animal but what can I do, I just had to believe in what Allah commanded.

budaatum:

I think showing empathy, and being compassionate, are higher skill sets, as in abilities that have developed over very long periods of time. Yes, neanderthal was empathic, and compassionate, but no where near as professional as we are capable of being today. And I bet you the older people become, the more empathic and compassionate they become. Or don't you meet some 'think of themselves' out there.

If at all empathy and compassion were inborn, I doubt it could be any better than just "kicking a ball". Throw vaxx's able to swim baby in the river and I honestly believe it will drown. To be Messi, or empathic, or compassionate, or swim, to a competent degree, one needs more than innateness.

As to evidence of my claim? Come back in a few months and let's see how just discussing it makes us better at being compassionate and empathic.

You didn't answer my question.

tintingz:
You didn't answer my question.

I'm sorry. Remind me please.

budaatum:

I'm sorry. Remind me please.

Do animals have empathy?

tintingz:
Do animals have empathy?

I thought this was satisfactorily answered!

Animals appear to have empathy.

budaatum:

I thought this was satisfactorily answered!

Animals appear to have empathy.

Is it innate or learned?

tintingz:
Is it innate or learned?

I'd say learned. Not all animals of the same species are empathic, and it is found in groups of animals indicating its cultural. Just like in humans, it seems, taught, and learned.

budaatum:

I'd say learned. Not all animals of the same species are empathic, and it is found in groups of animals indicating its cultural. Just like in humans, it seems, taught, and learned.

How do animals learn it?

tintingz:
How do animals learn it?

By observing it in other animals. Realising it furthers their interest. They might be in love, especially with their offspring.

Could be anyway. Same as its anyway humans too learn it I suppose. Some humans have empathy beaten into them!

budaatum:

By observing it in other animals. Realising it furthers their interest. They might be in love, especially with their offspring.

Could be anyway. Same as its anyway humans too learn it I suppose. Some humans have empathy beaten into them!

They are some knowledge that are genetically built In animal, for example no ones teaches a spider how to weave its web. It is an instinct quality, just like reflexes that is built on baby animal.sucking is inbuilt on them, they never learned it.

Borrowing from your links on the type of reflexes.

The rooting reflex goes "whenever anything touches your face, turn your head toward it."

The sucking reflex goes "whenever anything touches the inside of your mouth, suck on it."

With those two reflexes, the mother can get the baby to nurse by putting her nipple in or near the baby's mouth. If you touch the baby animal's mouth with your fingers or a bottle, the reflexes will make the baby animal suck on the fingers or bottle, too.


Denying that human do not have empathy inbuilt in them is like rejecting the functionality of the gene. And trying to only limit empathy to learning is like position it to the level of intelligence. Your man "'Daniel Goleman"" said empathy has nothing to do with intelligence.

Human/animal by nature has genetic capacity for empathy to develops as we grow. However, it is also a characteristic that can be and is learned thru our environment. Therefore empathy is both genetic and environmental.

budaatum:

By observing it in other animals. Realising it furthers their interest. They might be in love, especially with their offspring.

Could be anyway. Same as its anyway humans too learn it I suppose. Some humans have empathy beaten into them!

What interest does a specie of animal want from another specie?

I don't get, you mean animals in the jungle actually observe and learn what other animals do, there's nothing innate about thier emotions?

vaxx:
They are some knowledge that are genetically built In animal, for example no ones teaches a spider how to weave its web. It is an instinct quality, just like reflexes that is built on baby animal.sucking is inbuilt on them, they never learned it.

Borrowing from your links on the type of reflexes.

The rooting reflex goes "whenever anything touches your face, turn your head toward it."

The sucking reflex goes "whenever anything touches the inside of your mouth, suck on it."

With those two reflexes, the mother can get the baby to nurse by putting her nipple in or near the baby's mouth. If you touch the baby animal's mouth with your fingers or a bottle, the reflexes will make the baby animal suck on the fingers or bottle, too.


Denying that human do.not have empathy inbuilt in them is like rejecting the functionality of the gene. And trying to only limit empathy to learning is like position it to the level of intelligence. Your man "'Daniel Goldman"" said empathy has nothing to do with intelligence.

Human/animal by nature has genetic capacity for empathy to develops as we grow. However, it is also a characteristic that can be and is learned thru our environment. Therefore empathy is both genetic and environmental.

For the first time I agree with you @bolded.

tintingz:
What interest does a specie of animal want from another specie?

I don't get, you mean animals in the jungle actually observe and learn what other animals do, there's nothing innate about thier emotions?

Animals may want protection, so mother animal is submissive to papa animal just so it does not kill her baby animals and protects them from others. That's self interest within species. A colony of fleas or other blood sucking parasites would migrate to another host so their current host is not killed by excessive sucking, that too is self interest between different species.

Animals do learn. Lions are taught by their mothers to hunt. Chimpanzees have to learn warning calls and social etiquette. Crows have learnt to use tools. Ants and bees are not prewired to be soldiers or food gatherers, they are assigned roles and copy other ants and bees.

vaxx:

Your man "'Daniel Goleman"" said empathy has nothing to do with intelligence.

Human/animal by nature has genetic capacity for empathy to develops as we grow. However, it is also a characteristic that can be and is learned thru our environment. Therefore empathy is both genetic and environmental.

I've dealt with this 'trick' explaining that a "capacity" to do a thing may well be genetic, or innate, but if the "capacity" (like your capacity for swimming in infants) is not developed, that baby will not swim, but drown. If the baby drowns, would you say it swam?

A "capacity" to do a thing is not the ability to do that thing. A baby has the genetic capacity to walk, one might say. One may look at the baby moving its legs while laid on its back and say "reflex". One could claim that capacity is innate. But baby still has to develop the ability before it takes it's first independent step, and parents invest heavily in ensuring it fulfils the capacity which may be genetic, and innate but still has to be learnt.

Do note that the acquisition of intelligence is not the only product of learning. There are many who have been taught, and have learnt, to be unintelligent!

vaxx:
They are some knowledge that are genetically built in animal,
for example no ones teaches a spider how to weave its web.
It is an instinct quality, just like reflexes that is built on baby animal.
sucking is inbuilt on them, they never learned it.

Borrowing from your links on the type of reflexes.

The rooting reflex goes "whenever anything touches your face, turn your head toward it."

The sucking reflex goes "whenever anything touches the inside of your mouth, suck on it."

With those two reflexes, the mother can get the baby to nurse by putting her nipple in or near the baby's mouth.
If you touch the baby animal's mouth with your fingers or a bottle, the reflexes will make the baby animal suck on the fingers or bottle, too.

Denying that human do not have empathy inbuilt in them is like rejecting the functionality of the gene.
And trying to only limit empathy to learning is like position it to the level of intelligence.
Your man "'Daniel Goleman"" said empathy has nothing to do with intelligence.

Human/animal by nature has genetic capacity for empathy to develops as we grow.
However, it is also a characteristic that can be and is learned thru our environment.
Therefore empathy is both genetic and environmental.

budaatum:
I've dealt with this 'trick' explaining that a "capacity" to do a thing may well be genetic, or innate,
but if the "capacity" (like your capacity for swimming in infants) is not developed, that baby will not swim,
but drown. If the baby drowns, would you say it swam?

A "capacity" to do a thing is not the ability to do that thing.
A baby has the genetic capacity to walk, one might say.
One may look at the baby moving its legs while laid on its back and say "reflex".
One could claim that capacity is innate.
But baby still has to develop the ability before it takes it's first independent step,
and parents invest heavily in ensuring it fulfils the capacity which may be genetic, and innate but still has to be learnt.

Do note that the acquisition of intelligence is not the only product of learning.
There are many who have been taught, and have learnt, to be unintelligent!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdXa1XFl0es


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO7OvqDFMCs

I wonder when and/or where the compassion was learned from,
wonder how the dog(s) had the capacity in the first place
and what's or who's responsible that heavily invested in the dog(s) developing this amazing caring ability

tintingz:
What interest does a specie of animal want from another specie?

I don't get, you mean animals in the jungle actually observe and learn what other animals do, there's nothing innate about thier emotions?

lol. A question for budaatum. If a given set of animals(A) learnt empathy from other animals(B), where the B learn there morality from? We can keep on tracing to a given set of animals for whom empathy is inherently either genetic or invented. The only thing that comes close to learned empathy is pretence. That FEELING of sadness towards a perceived innocent victim is inborn but to direct that empathy/compassion towards the victim depends on if we reason them to be innocent and worthy of empathy.

Edit: budaatum was talking about intra-specie learning. That is where I talked about religious and cultural upbringings.

Martinez19:
lol. A question for budaatum. If a given set of animals(A) learnt empathy from other animals(B), where the B learn there morality from? We can keep on tracing to a given set of animals for whom empathy is inherently either genetic or invented. The only thing that comes close to learned empathy is pretence.
That FEELING of sadness towards a perceived innocent victim is inborn but to direct that empathy/compassion towards the victim depends on if we reason them to be innocent and worthy of empathy.

Edit: budaatum was talking about intra-specie learning.
That is where I talked about religious and cultural upbringings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-9VolGmZP0

What of this cat and puppies interspecies example?

Martinez19:
lol. A question for budaatum. If a given set of animals(A) learnt empathy from other animals(B), where the B learn there morality from? We can keep on tracing to a given set of animals for whom empathy is inherently either genetic or invented. The only thing that comes close to learned empathy is pretence. That FEELING of sadness towards a perceived innocent victim is inborn but to direct that empathy/compassion towards the victim depends on if we reason them to be innocent and worthy of empathy.

Tintingz said he had empathy for eran ileya. I assume he might not have learnt this empathy from those around him who were looking forward to eating meat, but would we say his empathy, and not his ability to be empathic, is innate? If so, why is it only innate to him? Is it genetic? Tintingz should let us know how many of his family members felt like he did.

Daniel Goleman identified five key elements of empathy as

Understanding Others
Developing Others
Having a Service Orientation
Leveraging Diversity
Political Awareness

Would you say these elements are innate, and passed on genetically, or learned?

"That FEELING of sadness towards a perceived innocent victim" is NOT inborn! Many can reason not to have a feeling of sadness towards even an innocent victim. The tyre petrol thief on Lagos streets is an example of this. So too is the lack of empathy that made some put chains around other people's necks and call them slaves, and the demonising of others in order to justify blowing them up. If those perpetrating these acts were empathic towards their victims they might have considered alternative ways to achieve their ends, or chosen different and more empathic ends.

The current arguments about the rights of homosexuals is illustrative. Nations where individuals know of homosexuals (as family members, neighbours, on tv etc), tend to be more empathic towards homosexuals, on the whole, than nations that want to kill homosexuals. And history shows that those nations where empathy is now shown to homosexuals used to be unempathic towards homosexuals in the past.

Yes, humans may have an 'innate' ability to be empathic, but just like they have the ability to swim, walk, be doctors, or astronauts, they still have to learn how to swim, walk, be astronauts or doctors, or they would be no better at it than mere "kicking a ball", like a two year old would, and nowhere Messi like.

Anyone relying on prelearned innate abilities would not be very competent in exercising the skill that ability is capable of engendering. If that skill were Messi, one would just be a ball kicker, if it were swimming one will simply drown, and if it were empathy, I see a lot of unempathic prejudice all around to make me wish it was innate, but the evidence - just the amount of effort to teach it alone - does not suggest it is innate and that one is born with it.

MuttleyLaff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-9VolGmZP0

What of this cat and puppies interspecies example?

INTRA-specie.

budaatum:

I've dealt with this 'trick' explaining

A "capacity" to do a thing is not the ability to do that thing. A baby has the genetic capacity to walk, one might say. One may look at the baby moving its legs while laid on its back and say "reflex". One could claim that capacity is innate. But baby still has to develop the ability before it takes it's first independent step, and parents invest heavily in ensuring it fulfils the capacity which may be genetic, and innate but still has to be learnt.

In a developmental psychology class, your thought might not be consider . Why? Because they are number of factors involved in walking partanning to primate. Firstly, while agreeing walking is a learned behaviour to some primate., there is probably that some innate drive the learning. This the way the human brain is wired. Most other primate are able to walk, without any learning, within a couple of hours of birth. Foal will walk without any needed asistance. Primates, who are born comparatively feeble and for whom walking is a much more complex skill (two legs hard, four legs easy) take a lot longer, therefore with enough evolutionary advantage, primate with two leg (human ) will walk without having the drive to do so .

Innate don't disappear when not in used, it is part of what make you. In fact researchers has proven innate behaviour can be turn on by itself .the researchers found that the innate behavior is initiated by a "command" hormone that orchestrates activities in discrete groups of peptide neurons in the brain...

Do note that the acquisition of intelligence is not the only product of learning. There are many who have been taught, and have learnt, to be unintelligent!

This might be goal post shifting

vaxx:
therefore with enough evolutionary advantage, primate with two leg (human ) will walk without having the drive to do so

Would you agree that 'evolution', is a form of learning? It is at the very least an adaptation that fits an organism to its environment. If empathy were useless in an organisms environment, would it necessarily be empathic, which would be the case if it were innate?

vaxx:
Innate don't disappear when not in used, it is part of what make you. In fact researchers has proven innate behaviour can be turn on by itself .the researchers found that the innate behavior is initiated by a "command" hormone that orchestrates activities in discrete groups of peptide neurons in the brain...

Like birds flying without prior education, as mentioned in link. However, I am saying that empathy, is way more complex than that, and birds flying still requires some learning, even if it were only the flapping of wings to remain steady in a nest. And one would have to ignore the possible learning from watching mother bird flying!

A more suitable example would be the ability of spiders to spin webs and catch food. This may be an evolutionary adaptation, but it can safely be assumed that some web spinning spiders may not know how or where to spin webs. And since we can't actually observe spiders that need to spin webs but don't, we would naturally assume an innate ability in spiders to spin webs. But we do so by disregarding very many more spiders that should spin webs but didn't, and died.

tintingz:
What interest does a specie of animal want from another specie?

I don't get, you mean animals in the jungle actually observe and learn what other animals do, there's nothing innate about thier emotions

Martinez19:
INTRA-specie.

Since what you typed in response to that tintingz above post was:
"budaatum was talking about intra-specie learning
That is where I talked about religious and cultural upbringings "
I then turned "INTRA-specie learning" on its head to INTER-specie learning,
to ask about the cat and puppies example watched in the video

The cat apparently was a good observer of what the other specie was doing to its puppies
The cat then acted upon something as a result of wanting so bad,
this other something from this another specie, which the another specie was meant to be doing to its puppies

vaxx:
In a developmental psychology class, your thought might not be consider .

Seriously?

Empathy is a broad concept that refers to the cognitive and emotional reactions of an individual to the observed experiences of another.
The Psychology of Emotional and Cognitive Empathy

When empathy relies on emotions alone, it functions as the equivalent of just kicking a ball, or a baby swimming.

MuttleyLaff:


Since what you typed in response to that tintingz above post was:
"budaatum was talking about intra-specie learning
That is where I talked about religious and cultural upbringings "
I then turned "INTRA-specie learning" on its head to INTER-specie learning,
to ask about the cat and puppies example watched in the video

The cat apparently was a good observer of what the other specie was doing to its puppies
The cat then acted upon something as a result of wanting so bad,
this other something from this another specie, which the another specie was meant to be doing to its puppies

I made a mistake with that INTRA-specie stuff. An organism can learn from anywhere.

MuttleyLaff:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdXa1XFl0es


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO7OvqDFMCs

I wonder when and/or where the compassion was learned from,
wonder how the dog(s) had the capacity in the first place
and what's or who's responsible that heavily invested in the dog(s) developing this amazing caring ability

i wish i can give you more than a hundered likes for this video.

budaatum:

Tintingz said he had empathy for eran ileya. I assume he might not have learnt this empathy from those around him who were looking forward to eating meat, but would we say his empathy, and not his ability to be empathic, is innate? If so, why is it only innate to him? Is it genetic? Tintingz should let us know how many of his family members felt like he did.

Daniel Goleman identified five key elements of empathy as

Understanding Others
Developing Others
Having a Service Orientation
Leveraging Diversity
Political Awareness

Would you say these elements are innate, and passed on genetically, or learned?

"That FEELING of sadness towards a perceived innocent victim" is NOT inborn! Many can reason not to have a feeling of sadness towards even an innocent victim. The tyre petrol thief on Lagos streets is an example of this. So too is the lack of empathy that made some put chains around other people's necks and call them slaves, and the demonising of others in order to justify blowing them up. If those perpetrating these acts were empathic towards their victims they might have considered alternative ways to achieve their ends, or chosen different and more empathic ends.

The current arguments about the rights of homosexuals is illustrative. Nations where individuals know of homosexuals (as family members, neighbours, on tv etc), tend to be more empathic towards homosexuals, on the whole, than nations that want to kill homosexuals. And history shows that those nations where empathy is now shown to homosexuals used to be unempathic towards homosexuals in the past.

Yes, humans may have an 'innate' ability to be empathic, but just like they have the ability to swim, walk, be doctors, or astronauts, they still have to learn how to swim, walk, be astronauts or doctors, or they would be no better at it than mere "kicking a ball", like a two year old would, and nowhere Messi like.

Anyone relying on prelearned innate abilities would not be very competent in exercising the skill that ability is capable of engendering. If that skill were Messi, one would just be a ball kicker, if it were swimming one will simply drown, and if it were empathy, I see a lot of unempathic prejudice all around to make me wish it was innate, but the evidence - just the amount of effort to teach it alone - does not suggest it is innate and that one is born with it.

I'm not the only person that have empathy towards the sallah ram, some of my siblings also do, it's not that we were taught killing the ram is bad, we actually believe it's good since Allah commanded it, but the feeling and emotion killing the ram comes naturally that I felt bad.

You mean having sad feelings, emotional towards an innocent victim is not inborn? Dude what are you saying?

budaatum:

Would you agree that 'evolution', is a form of learning?

No I disagree , evolution is a proces where living creatures who have the genes to survive, will survive for long enough to get children. Example , the fastest gazelle will outrun the lions and this gazelles offsping will also be fast.. There is nothing about learning.
Animals can learn to survive in spite of their genes.
The gazelle born less fast might still survive, by learning that this smell means that there are lions nearby and thereby start running before the other gazelles. Therefore evolution is beingbborn with legs that are better suited for running.meaning having an innate ability to run.learning on the orther hand is studying and practicing running tecniques that makes you as good as those born with running legs.

if empathy were useless in an organisms environment, would it necessarily be empathic, which would be the case if it were innate?

Empathy were never useless, it is the key that unluck all other potentials.

Like birds flying without prior education, as mentioned in link. However, I am saying that empathy, is way more complex than that, and birds flying still requires some learning, even if it were only the flapping of wings to remain steady in a nest. And one would have to ignore the possible learning from watching mother bird flying!

i gave a case of a spider who have perfected is evolutionary advantage to weave its web without learning, a flying bird already has an innate to fly, the learning here only to came to perfect it. At a long run . Evolution may perfect the skills itself. There is this kid i called my friend , he is very good in visual art who never trained or schooled , he is just 9 years old. I payed him for drawing me. Though not perfect but skilful. And with enough try and error , he will perfect the skills

A more suitable example would be the ability of spiders to spin webs and catch food. This may be an evolutionary adaptation, but it can safely be assumed that some web spinning spiders may not know how or where to spin webs. And since we can't actually observe spiders that need to spin webs but don't, we would naturally assume an innate ability in spiders to spin webs. But we do so by disregarding very many more spiders that should spin webs but didn't, and died.

Yes we can assume that, and of course not all spider spine web, but there is this unique innate that is build in them , ability to jump from place to place using a silk tether that assures that they won't lose their place even if they happen to fall when working on a weave net.

vaxx:
In a developmental psychology class, your thought might not be consider. Why?
Because they are number of factors involved in walking partanning to primate.
Firstly, while agreeing walking is a learned behaviour to some primate.,
there is probably that some innate drive the learning.
This the way the human brain is wired.
Most other primate are able to walk, without any learning, within a couple of hours of birth.
Foal will walk without any needed asistance.
Primates, who are born comparatively feeble and for whom walking is a much more complex skill (two legs hard, four legs easy) take a lot longer, therefore with enough evolutionary advantage, primate with two leg (human ) will walk without having the drive to do so .

vaxx this is a disappointed, done too hurriedly, carelessly
and feeble explanation to why human and other primate babies have to learn to walk slower than other animals

vaxx:
Innate don't disappear when not in used, it is part of what make you.

In fact researchers has proven innate behaviour can be turn on by itself .
the researchers found that the innate behavior is initiated by a "command" hormone that orchestrates activities in discrete groups of peptide neurons in the brain...

This might be goal post shifting

I accept without demur that compassion, empathy, sympathy, consideration and sensitiveness are innate, that they don't disappear when not in used, because they are part of one's make up.

I equally agree without demur that innate behaviour can be turned on by itself

budaatum:
Seriously?

Empathy is a broad concept that refers to the cognitive and emotional reactions of an individual to the observed experiences of another.
The Psychology of Emotional and Cognitive Empathy

When empathy relies on emotions alone, it functions as the equivalent of just kicking a ball, or a baby swimming.

You guys both are familiar with the story of the traveler who fell into the dastardly hands of robbers and got stripped of clothing, beaten and left half dead alongside the road.

Notice, the pastor or the Daddy G O or Bishop (i.e. the priest), the choirmaster or usher or church worker (i.e. the Levite) switched off the "compassion, empathy, sympathy, consideration and/or sensitiveness" innate behaviour button

The priest was going down the road the man was left half dead, but when the priest saw the man, he passed by on the other side.
So too, the Levite, when the Levite came to same spot and saw him, he passed by him, by crossing on the other side of the road.

I believe it goes deeper and beyond emotions.
You either have it or you dont

Just in that popular narrative, some just dont have it anymore in them, to switch it on.
Some have become desensitized, some have misjudged priorities.
Some are selective to whom and/or when to show or give "compassion, empathy, sympathy, consideration and/or sensitiveness" to
Some dont know when its right to show or give "compassion, empathy, sympathy, consideration and/or sensitiveness"

budaatum:

Seriously?

Empathy is a broad concept that refers to the cognitive and emotional reactions of an individual to the observed experiences of another.
The Psychology of Emotional and Cognitive Empathy

When empathy relies on emotions alone, it functions as the equivalent of just kicking a ball, or a baby swimming.

Empathy is a combination of the both, genetic and enviroment.