@pilgrims

WHERE IN THE QURAN ARE THE MIRACLES MUHAMMAD PERFORMED TO PROVE HE WAS THE LAST AND GREATEST PROPHET??


His miracle are no recorded there. Are you ok now? More of your allegations please.

@pilgrim,
you say you were a muslim, so you should already be aware of the greatest miracle- the Quran.fortunately, our high priestess of the nairaland christian supremacist movement has already pointed out that Muhammed (SAW) was illiterate. so how does an illiterate man produce a book with 114 chapters? how does an illiterate man produce a book that discusses among other  things, prophets and events  he could not have been aware of, but which who have existed in your bible.

as to your request for miracles, you should know that Muhammad did not perform miracles for a very simple reason; Miracles ultimately have no effect on the faith of human beings. Infact, it is worse for you to view miracles, convert and later revert again. Nairaland's islamophobia vectors, if they study their bible with any of the intensity with which they 'study' the quran should be aware that the israaelites, in spite of all the miracles they saw, still turned apostate the moment musa turned his back on them.

of course, there are those who will claim that it was a jinn, and not angel Jubril, that met Muhammed (SAW) in the cave. if so, why are there no other variants of islam? the jinns should have definetely  repeated their successful experiment in religious invention.

it must be because of the 'miracles' that pastor chris and co keep churning out(in laboratory conditions) that so many of your fellow posters are such adherent 'christians'.

@babs787,

babs787:

@pilgrims

WHERE IN THE QURAN ARE THE MIRACLES MUHAMMAD PERFORMED TO PROVE HE WAS THE LAST AND GREATEST PROPHET??

His miracle are no recorded there. Are you ok now?

Read this:

pilgrim.1:

I already note that you're shifting away from the Qur'an  and on to the ahadith. No problem with that; and later i'll offer you what that paradigm shift does to the mind of the reader who reads of "MIRACLES" in the QURAN and now finds that there's NONE!!

Did you miss that? If you knew there were NO miracles in the QUR'AN, what zeal drove you to offer the falling eye-pupil as one of those miracles in the first place?

babs787:

More of your allegations please.

Is it becoming so uncomfortable now that you address other people's questions as "allegations"?? What have you been doing all the while?

Let me leave you yet again with what I stated earlier:

pilgrim.1:

That said, I should also remind you that your offer of those weblinks do NOT in even one instance claim that Muhammad performed ANY miracle. . .

Again, for your sake, please stick to the topic; and if you have nothing to say thereto, please pass on and let other knowledgeable Muslims come to the discourse instead of being desperate to cover up what you can't defend.

If Muhammed performed NO miracles in the Qur'an, he performed NONE outside Islam's holy book of 'Allah'. Subsequently, the word "MIRACLE/MIRACLES" should be scrapped from that book!

Thanks.

Hi again @oyb,

oyb:

@pilgrim,
you say you were a muslim, so you should already be aware of the greatest miracle- the Quran.

Please, I don't want to be tedious to you. If you continue to doubt my testimony as a former muslimah, ask what you will from my souvenir, and I'll gladly send it to you as I have no further use for any of such stuff. Satisfied??

As Muslims, that is what we were taught by rote, and we all swallowed it - hook, line, and sinker. No Muslim ever stops to ask what miracle the Qur'an has actually ever performed. Who has been healed? Raised from the dead? Had their physically blind eyes and deaf ears opened? Had their lame feet strengthened so they could walk??

What use is the claim that the Qur'an is "the greatest miracle" when it has done NOTHING at all to people who have physical and real needs of a miracle??

oyb:

fortunately, our high priestess of the nairaland christian supremacist movement has already pointed out that Muhammed (SAW) was illiterate.so how does an illiterate man produce a book with 114 chapters? how does an illiterate man produce a book that discusses among other things, prophets and events he could not have been aware of, but which who have existed in your bible.

Listen to yourself. Was there any need for that 'high priestess' derogation in the first place?

And then come to think of it - are you guys not speaking from opposite ends of the bridge? On the one end, it is popularly claimed that Muhammad did NOT write the Qur'an; but when it suits your argument, then all of a sudden, Muhammad the illiterate fellow sat down for 23 years and wrote the Qur'an!! If he was such an illiterate fellow, who did his counting for him in money matters, especially when he divided the booty and spoils of war?

Please, for one brief moment, challenge yourself to investigate your religion independently of what the Ulema tell you. If you can't, no problem: I'll come back later to show you that Muhammad actually wrote the Qur'an - and it's no longer a big deal to see that it's all fabrication of his own ideas and passions.

oyb:

as to your request for miracles, you should know that Muhammad did not perform miracles for a very simple reason; Miracles ultimately have no effect on the faith of human beings.

Huh? Are you now again confirming that babs787's effort was a wasted one afterall? I guessed as much, although he wouldn't admit it.

However, if "miracles have no effect on faith of human beings", then indeed the Qur'an is NOT a miracle - and for precisely the reason that it had no effect on my faith as a human being, I forever left it to those who still claim the opposite of what you're stating in Islam.

oyb:
Infact, it is worse for you to view miracles, convert and later revert again.

Absolutely correct! That's why I've always said that my leaving Islam was FOREVER!! I know what it means!!

oyb:

Nairaland's islamophobia vectors if, they study their bible with any of the intensity with which they 'study' the quran should be aware that the isrealites, in spite of all the miracles they saw, still turned apostate the moment musa turned his back on them.

In just the same way, the Muslim apologist(s) who spend their time attacking Christianity should realize that there are Muslims who de-convert from Islam to other religions, after having shouted the first part of the adhan many times - 'allahu akbar!' Is this why de-converting from Islam carries the death penalty; while the apostates of other religions simply pray for those leaving their religion?

oyb:

of course, there are those who will claim a it was a jinn, and not angel Jubril, that met Muhammed (SAW) in the cave. if so, why are there no other variants of islam? the jinns have definetly repeated their successful experiment in religious invention.

Did I hear you say there are no variants of Islam? Where have you been?? Even with my small knowledge of my former religion, the last time I counted, there were over 75 well-established denominations in Islam, most of which are as far removed from each other as can possibly be!

Muslims often say, there is only one book, and only one Islam. Hey, forget the chant and lift up your eyes: the Qur'an CANNOT survive on its own, and Muslims MUST depend on the ahadith if Islam is to survive at all. Don't forget that Muslim scholars themselves today are beginning to suggest that Islam MUST undergo a "change" (nevermind that 'Allah' had perfected your religion for you!).

Plus, have you heard the latest? Watch out for the first English translation of the Qur'an by an American woman!

oyb:

it must be because of the 'miracles' that pastor chris and co keep churning out(in laboratory conditions) that so many of your fellow posters are such adherent 'christians'

Under what "laboratory conditions" was the greatest miracle in Islam (al-Qur'an) churned out??

Don't blink - I love you with the love of Jesus Christ, and hope that you come to know Him for His unfailing love. May God richly bless you and bring you to His saving grace.

* peeps into thread and sighs *


all these religious apologists and their sermons sef!! una wahala too much!!

oyb:

as to your request for miracles, you should know that Muhammad did not perform miracles for a very simple reason; Miracles ultimately have no effect on the faith of human beings. Infact, it is worse for you to view miracles, convert and later revert again. Nairaland's islamophobia vectors, if they study their bible with any of the intensity with which they 'study' the quran should be aware that the israaelites, in spite of all the miracles they saw, still turned apostate the moment musa turned his back on them.

Perhaps it is your false quran that testifies that "moses turned his back on the isrealites". It is recorded in the bible that it was moses intercession on the behalf of the Isrealites that spared them from the wrath of God.

Numbers 14: 11 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?
12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.
13 And Moses said unto the LORD, Then the Egyptians shall hear it, (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them
14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.
15 Now if thou shalt kill all this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying,
16 Because the LORD was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness.
17 And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying,
18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
19 Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.
20 And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:

oyb:

of course, there are those who will claim that it was a jinn, and not angel Jubril, that met Muhammed (SAW) in the cave. if so, why are there no other variants of islam? the jinns should have definetely repeated their successful experiment in religious invention.

What is the difference between Sunni and Shi'ite islam? Are those not variants too? What of the wahhabis?

The devil is more intelligent than you can ever think, he knew it would be stupid to send his jinn to several mohammeds. That trick is why 1.3billion muslims worldwide are still being led by their nostrils into hell.

why are there no other variants of islam? the jinns should have definetely  repeated their successful experiment in religious invention.

Please let's try to be truthful,it's a virtue.

Do these exist,or did I make them up.

Who are the Sunnis?
Sunnis are Muslims who are considered the more "orthodox" believers. Sunnis follow all of the most traditional beliefs and actions.

Who are the Shi'ites?
The term Shi'a is a shortened form of Shi'at Ali, which means "the party of Ali" - and at the time of Ali's death in 661, that is probably all it was: a party or tendency of people who supported Ali's claims to the caliphate. Over time, they became the largest non-Sunni sect in Islam.

Who are the Sufis?
Sufism is important to the development of Islam because it is in this tradition that the more spiritual and mystical aspects were preserved. This stands in contrast to the mainstream of Islam which, through its first centuries, was more concerned with the expansion and organization of the general community.

Who are the Kahrijites?

In Arabic, their label means "to go out" - they were, in effect, the first Mulism dissidents and rebels, being present almost from the dawn of Islam. Like later dissidents, they chose to separate themselves from the main body of believers, feeling that the majority of Muslims had lost the "true path."

Who are the Wahhabis?

Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab could be considered the first modern Islamic fundamentalist. He made the central point of his reform movement the idea that absolutely every idea added to Islam after the third century of the Mulsim era was false and should be eliminated.

Who are the Ismailis?

An early Shi'a sect which split from the main group because of a dispute over who should be considered the next Imam.

Who are the Zaidis?

Formed by Zaid, a grandson of Husain, the Zaidis have believed that the true Imam must publicly assert his claim to the title and seek to overthrow the corrupt regime run by unacceptable rulers.

Who are the Fatimids?

The Fatimids are a successor movement to the Isma'ilis and are descendants of Fatima and Ali through the line of Isma'il. In the tenth century, those descendants asserted themselves as caliphs in North Africa, and ruled Egypt from 969 to 1171.

Who are the Nizari?
This sect is actually very well known around the world, but under a different name: the Assassins.

Who are the Alawis?
Also known as Nusayris, the Alawis are a branch of Isma'ilism which has gone so far along its own path that many Muslims no longer even regard it as a form of Islam. The term Alawis actually just means "followers of Ali," which is used in some countries to refer to all Shi'a in general. Some think that they worship Ali as God, but that isn't entirely accurate.

Who are the Druze?

The Druze comprise another sect which is not widely regarded as being "truly" Muslim. This group diverged from mainstream Islam in the eleventh century when some Isma'ilis started to believe that God became manifest in the personality of a prophet or imam.

Who are the Baha'i?
Baha'i is another movement which is descended from Islam, but which most Muslims today no longer regard as authentically Islamic.

oyb,I give you wikipedia,your favorite reference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_Islam

@babyosis,

Let me have their difference and similarities and compare that to Protestants, seventh day adventist, Cathoics, Jehovah witness, etc.



@davidylan

I thought you know the bible very well. Didnt the Israelites tried Moses? Didnt they go back to worhipping idols. Didnt they tell him to perform miracles for them. Brother, if its about Moses and Israelites, you sure have babs, we can always iron the issue out. Read your pentateuch very well and you will learn what the Israelites did to Moses.

As for the the sunis and shittes, let me have explanation on the Quran they recite, the chapters in their Quran and compare with the books of protestant with catholics. Also give it to me where they face during their worship. When you are through with these, we go into other issues.



@pilgrims


Did you miss that? If you knew there were NO miracles in the QUR'AN, what zeal drove you to offer the falling eye-pupil as one of those miracles in the first place?

Sister, honestly it is very obvious that you were never a muslim let alone practising one. You can imagine a former 'practising' muslim asking if Muhammed's miracles were recorded in the Quran. A non practising muslim will tell you that the Quran was written by Allah and has no saying of the prophet. His miracles are recordd in the Hadith. Muhammed's miracles are in the Hadith and the Holy Quran is Allah's greatest miracle. Common, 'former practising muslim', this shouldnt be an issue, Muhammed's saying, doings are in the Sunnahs and the Hadiths.



Is it becoming so uncomfortable now that you address other people's questions as "allegations"?? What have you been doing all the while?

Is that the issue or topic at hand?   'allegations'


Let me leave you yet again with what I stated earlier:

Quote from: pilgrim.1 on April 25, 2007, 07:52 PM
That said, I should also remind you that your offer of those weblinks do NOT in even one instance claim that Muhammad performed ANY miracle. . .

Allah owns the Quran and the doings of the prophet is in the Hadith. So you expect his miracles to be written in the Quran. Wow, a ' former practising muslim' asking if Muhammed's miracle is written in the Quran. Now the Gospel was given to Jesus, why was it written in past tense and has the saying of 3rd party? You can never find his miracles in the Quran but the Hadith.


Again, for your sake, please stick to the topic; and if you have nothing to say thereto, please pass on and let other knowledgeable Muslims come to the discourse instead of being desperate to cover up what you can't defend.

I am not covering up anything. You should be the one covering up when you have nothing to offer in those threads opened by you. I have told you and I am telling you now sister, Muhammed has his doings recorded in the Sunnah and the Hadith. You will never find his words in the Quran except that of Allah and that is why its Allah's book. Very soon, we will know if really the bible should be taken to be God's book.


If Muhammed performed NO miracles in the Qur'an, he performed NONE outside Islam's holy book of 'Allah'. Subsequently, the word "MIRACLE/MIRACLES" should be scrapped from that book!

Haba, pls try to speak like a former muslim, you have not been speaking like one. You are expecting it to be written in the Quran. Quran is for Allah alone while Muhammed's (saw) doings and Sayings are recorded in the Sunnah and the Hadith. Al-Quran was revealed by Allah to Muhammed and it is the GREATEST MIRACLE OF ALL.




As Muslims, that is what we were taught by rote, and we all swallowed it - hook, line, and sinker. No Muslim ever stops to ask what miracle the Qur'an has actually ever performed. Who has been healed? Raised from the dead? Had their physically blind eyes and deaf ears opened? Had their lame feet strengthened so they could walk??

Well if you care to know, the Quran is more than that? Are you referring to miracles  of oyakhilomes, bonnkes etc, they are magicians. The Quran is the gratest miracle. It talks on past, present, future, science of nature in which scientist are just discovering. It talks about creation of things, biology, psychology, jinns (which your bible never tells you) etc. Scientist too respects the Quran and there are some that have accepted only cos of its Scientific miracles. Also it was arranged in chronological order etc .Its the greatest miracle. You keep mentioning opening of eyes, how many has been healed in your area. Anytime your pastor performs miracles, let him have it written down the address of those that he claims to have received salvation. We have lots of handicapped, let the pastors heal them , they are ready to believe and some of them are believers.

You are also a believer, why cant you heal cos Jesus said that you should ask and that it would be given to you and that if you command the mountain to move, it woud move. Abeg stop deceiving yourself with magic.

The Quran is the ULTIMATE MIRACLE.


What use is the claim that the Qur'an is "the greatest miracle" when it has done NOTHING at all to people who have physical and real needs of a miracle??

Na wa o.Is that your own understanding of miracle? The Quran talks on every facet of life, have you seen the arithmetical miracle of the figure 19 and other figures. Have you ponder on how the heaven and earth were created. In His Book, Allah even challenged the unblievers to verify it if His claim were wrong. You have everything pertaining to creation, justice, rulership, science etc in the Quran. You have



And then come to think of it - are you guys not speaking from opposite ends of the bridge? On the one end, it is popularly claimed that Muhammad did NOT write the Qur'an; but when it suits your argument, then all of a sudden, Muhammad the illiterate fellow sat down for 23 years and wrote the Qur'an!! If he was such an illiterate fellow, who did his counting for him in money matters, especially when he divided the booty and spoils of war?

Wait, get it straight. The statement goes to you christians, you have been acusing Muhammed of writing the Quran and that raises the question that, how could an illiterate be so well versed and had the knowledge of things in which scientist are just discovering. Further how coud an illiterate sit down for 23 years and arranged the Quran in a chronological way. Far from it, it was written by Allah, The Supreme.


Please, for one brief moment, challenge yourself to investigate your religion independently of what the Ulema tell you. If you can't, no problem: I'll come back later to show you that Muhammad actually wrote the Qur'an - and it's no longer a big deal to see that it's all fabrication of his own ideas and passions.

Islam is not like your religion. Please we do verify everything before accepting . And it is a result of our verification, we get to know Bidiah. I have been telling you, we muslims verify things before accepting. it is you that do not verify, you can imagine some saying that God is Jesus while some saying no. Some christians have been challenged and even pastors but they keep telling you that they met people saying it that way. Imam cannot bring anything and expect me to accept without proof. You should please check yourself.


Huh? Are you now again confirming that babs787's effort was a wasted one afterall? I guessed as much, although he wouldn't admit it.

Try understand to Oyb's statement.


[color=#990000]However, if "miracles have no effect on faith of human beings", then indeed the Qur'an is NOT a miracle - and for precisely the reason that it had no effect on my faith as a human being, I forever left it to those who still claim the opposite of what you're stating in Islam.[/color]

Is miracle the foundation of faith? Did the jews believe in Jesus dspite his miracles?



Absolutely correct! That's why I've always said that my leaving Islam was FOREVER!! I know what it means!!

It will not affect Allah's religion. May you realise the truth on time


In just the same way, the Muslim apologist(s) who spend their time attacking Christianity should realize that there are Muslims who de-convert from Islam to other religions, after having shouted the first part of the adhan many times - 'allahu akbar!' Is this why de-converting from Islam carries the death penalty; while the apostates of other religions simply pray for those leaving their religion?

Oh no. why are you preaching what you dont know?

Read on pls:

Deuteronomy 13:6-9: If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.


Deuteronomy 17:3-5: And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, , and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die.

2 Chronicles 15:13: All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.



Did I hear you say there are no variants of Islam? Where have you been?? Even with my small knowledge of my former religion, the last time I counted, there were over 75 well-established denominations in Islam, most of which are as far removed from each other as can possibly be!

Let me have the 75 variants, the book they read, the number of chapters, where they face when praying please.


Muslims often say, there is only one book, and only one Islam. Hey, forget the chant and lift up your eyes: the Qur'an CANNOT survive on its own, and Muslims MUST depend on the ahadith if Islam is to survive at all. Don't forget that Muslim scholars themselves today are beginning to suggest that Islam MUST undergo a "change" (nevermind that 'Allah' had perfected your religion for you!).


So how does that comes in? If muslims shouldnt support the hadith, then rerefence shouldnt me made to it. Please what change are you referring to? Let me have your own explanation


Plus, have you heard the latest? Watch out for the first English translation of the Qur'an by an American woman!

Are you saying that that woud be the first English translation? What is the noise about please? What is the deal in translating the Quran please, would that be the first translation?


Under what "laboratory conditions" was the greatest miracle in Islam (al-Qur'an) churned out??

Scientist have been confirming the scientificmiracles therein


Don't blink - I love you with the love of Jesus Christ, and hope that you come to know Him for His unfailing love. May God richly bless you and bring you to His saving grace.

Huh. I know that you went to learn about the false doctrines, Allah will touch your heart again and you will come and tell us those doctrines as bein preached by your pastors. Islam is the Noah' ark of today, embark on it and be saved. If anyone desire any other religion apart from Islam, it wil never be accepted of him and he will be among the losers. please I dont want you to be thats why I am calling you now.

Peace.

@babs787

accepting the truth that there are different variants of Islam makes the man in you instead of endless arguments that makes you look like a bigot. Be courageous and do the expected

@babyosis

Good analysis once again.

@nossycheek,

nossycheek:

@babs787

accepting the truth that there are different variants of Islam makes the man in you instead of endless arguments that makes you look like a bigot. Be courageous and do the expected

Thank you so much. I couldn't have said it any better; and it's up to babs787 to read, be man enough, or simply convince people that he is unschooled. Anti-intellectualism was another reason why I left Islam FOREVER.

@babs787,

babs787:

@pilgrims

Did you miss that? If you knew there were NO miracles in the QUR'AN, what zeal drove you to offer the falling eye-pupil as one of those miracles in the first place?

Sister, honestly it is very obvious that you were never a muslim let alone practising one. You can imagine a former 'practising' muslim asking if Muhammed's miracles were recorded in the Quran. A non practising muslim will tell you that the Quran was written by Allah and has no saying of the prophet. His miracles are recordd in the Hadith. Muhammed's miracles are in the Hadith and the Holy Quran is Allah's greatest miracle. Common, 'former practising muslim', this shouldnt be an issue, Muhammed's saying, doings are in the Sunnahs and the Hadiths.

You can argue from now till your tummy bursts about my having been a muslim, it still won't change the fact of my claim.

I purposely asked that question because Muslims often claim that Muhammad performed many miracles; whereas the Qur'an AGAIN and AGAIN testified that Muhammad with his own lips DENIED that he EVER performed ANY miracle!! Therefore, it is as simple as can be that a man who testified with his own lips that he did NOT perform any miracles in the Qur'an CANNOT at the same time claim outside the Qur'an that he performed some!! What kind of shameless double-speak is that??

This al-taqiyya tendencies is even worse when you (as a Muslim) are still hanging on to such denials and pretences in your roundabout arguments, trying ever so hard to DEFEND what Muhammad himself DENIED!! Please, be man enough to admit that Islam is such a sham if you cannot be intelligent enough to let the Qur'an speak for itself!!

babs787:


Is it becoming so uncomfortable now that you address other people's questions as "allegations"?? What have you been doing all the while?

Is that the issue or topic at hand?   'allegations'

I did not make any "allegations" - I asked questions. If asking questions by others is interpreted as "allegations", you are as guilty as you try to see the concerns of others. If this is not the topic at hand, try not deflecting from the topic of this and other threads as you usually do.

babs787:

Let me leave you yet again with what I stated earlier:

Quote from: pilgrim.1 on April 25, 2007, 07:52 PM
That said, I should also remind you that your offer of those weblinks do NOT in even one instance claim that Muhammad performed ANY miracle. . .

Allah owns the Quran and the doings of the prophet is in the Hadith. So you expect his miracles to be written in the Quran. Wow, a ' former practising muslim' asking if Muhammed's miracle is written in the Quran. Now the Gospel was given to Jesus, why was it written in past tense and has the saying of 3rd party? You can never find his miracles in the Quran but the Hadith.

The issue of my quote which you highlighted is simple: those websites you offered did not rank Muhammad as 1st upon any criteria based on his purported miracles! If that is not confirmation that you skewed off this topic, tell me what that was meant to have achieved!

If Muhammad could not state anywhere in the Qur'an that he had a clear, single miracle, what is the double-game Muslims are trying to play by referring to the Hadith? Why was it so difficult for the "all-wise, all-seeing Allah" to have pointed a clear miracle in his "holy book" where he gave "his slave" even ONE such miracle to perform? Did he not see the miracles of the hadith before he "revealed" to Muhammad in the Qur'an to deny having performed a single miracle??

That is why my statement stands: If Muhammad had NO miracles IN the Qur'an, then he performed NO miracles outside of the Qur'an!!

babs787:

Again, for your sake, please stick to the topic; and if you have nothing to say thereto, please pass on and let other knowledgeable Muslims come to the discourse instead of being desperate to cover up what you can't defend.

I am not covering up anything. You should be the one covering up when you have nothing to offer in those threads opened by you. I have told you and I am telling you now sister, Muhammed has his doings recorded in the Sunnah and the Hadith. You will never find his words in the Quran except that of Allah and that is why its Allah's book. Very soon, we will know if really the bible should be taken to be God's book.

If it was illogical for 'Allah' to have clearly stated in his own book (al-Qur'an) that his slave Muhammad actually performed ANY miracle, so do we then take the slave's own word as authority over 'Allah's' own Qur'an?? It's really a simple issue here, and can be summarized thus:

Did Muhammad perform a single miracle?
(a) Qur'an by Allah: "NO!!"
(b) Hadith by 'Allah's' slave: "psst! Yees!"

Who's fooling who?

babs787:

If Muhammed performed NO miracles in the Qur'an, he performed NONE outside Islam's holy book of 'Allah'. Subsequently, the word "MIRACLE/MIRACLES" should be scrapped from that book!

Haba, please try to speak like a former muslim, you have not been speaking like one. You are expecting it to be written in the Quran. Quran is for Allah alone while Muhammed's (saw) doings and Sayings are recorded in the Sunnah and the Hadith. Al-Quran was revealed by Allah to Muhammed and it is the GREATEST MIRACLE OF ALL.

I've been speaking like a former Muslim; and your problem is that even as a Christian now, you expect me to still be speaking like a muslim! If Qur'an is for 'Allah alone', did he not say things about Muhammad in his Qur'an?

What is so spurious about the Qur'an that Muslims often regard it like an exclusive club register that does not speak of anyone else?? If the Qur'an mentioned the miracles of Jesus, why does it fail to mention that of Muhammad?? In the Qur'an, Jesus is heard saying: "And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead" (QUR'AN. 3:49). If that is IN THE QUR'AN, what was so sanctimonious about Muhammad that his 'Allah' could not make a similar statement about the miracles of his slave of Islam??

And yet, you have the temerity to tell me that the Qur'an is Allah's book alone; so that people have to look OUTSIDE 'Allah's' book to fetch the miracles of his slave! Please don't make us laugh!

babs787:


As Muslims, that is what we were taught by rote, and we all swallowed it - hook, line, and sinker. No Muslim ever stops to ask what miracle the Qur'an has actually ever performed. Who has been healed? Raised from the dead? Had their physically blind eyes and deaf ears opened? Had their lame feet strengthened so they could walk??

Well if you care to know, the Quran is more than that? Are you referring to miracles  of oyakhilomes, bonnkes etc, they are magicians.

Thank you for your jealousy; at least you can pat yourself in the back that it is NOT recorded in the Qur'an.

babs787:

The Quran is the gratest miracle. It talks on past, present, future, science of nature in which scientist are just discovering. It talks about creation of things, biology, psychology, jinns (which your bible never tells you) etc. Scientist too respects the Quran and there are some that have accepted only because of its Scientific miracles.

Permit me to call that rubbish! Today, the idea that the Qur'an is scientifically accurate has been challenged and laid to rest! Again, look at Q. 3:49 - did it not clearly mention the miracles of Jesus? My question is simple enough: WHERE in the Qur'an did Muhammad ("the last and greatest prophet" perform even one miracle??

There are so many science magazines, scientific journals and digests, science books researched and written by well-read and celebrated scientists whose work the Qur'an stands no chance by contrast.

If the propagandist claim of "the qur'an is scientific" qualifies it as "the gretatest miracle", then ALL of those well researched material by non-religious scientists are greater by a wider margin.

Again, WHERE and HOW has "the greatest miracle" (al-Qur'an) healed the physically lame, blind, deaf and sick folk as we read about Jesus?? If this question cannot be answered, then let me remind you of what I stated earlier:

Again, for your sake, please stick to the topic; and if you have nothing to say thereto, please pass on and let other knowledgeable Muslims come to the discourse instead of being desperate to cover up what you can't defend.

If Muhammed performed NO miracles in the Qur'an, he performed NONE outside Islam's holy book of 'Allah'. Subsequently, the word "MIRACLE/MIRACLES" should be scrapped from that book!

Thank you in anticipation that you'd please let this discussion progress without the unnecessary theories that haven't helped so far.

God bless.

Islam considers the Quran as the greatest because: It seeks to change the most important part of man (The brain) through perhaps the simplest and memorable medium (the word).

From the studies of ethymologies, the Quran can simply be translated  or decomposed into [b]"The Reading"[/b] or "That which is to be Read". .Simply, its the sign(ayat) of the Lord which is to be read and understood that man would be successsful.

The funniest fact about both Bible and Quran is that scriptures were written by humans, and one of them was written about 2 thousand years ago. We are not sure about reliability of written reports done just decades ago and still, we trust something written in a strange manner, almost 2 milleniums ago, Some people are ready even to kill anyone who express opinion different to the one from the holly books, tzk tzk tzk,

abdkabir:

Islam considers the Quran as the greatest because: It seeks to change the most important part of man (The brain) through perhaps the simplest and memorable medium (the word).

The quran seeks to change the most important part of man (the brain) through the sword, manipulation and coercion. There is no spiritual empowerment behind those words.

abdkabir:

Islam considers the Quran as the greatest because: It seeks to change the most important part of man (The brain) through perhaps the simplest and memorable medium (the word).

From the studies of ethymologies, the Quran can simply be translated  or decomposed into [b]"The Reading"[/b] or "That which is to be Read". .Simply, its the sign(ayat) of the Lord which is to be read and understood that man would be successsful.

Thanks abdkabir.

I think your view could down down well with some appreciation, that Islam "considers" the Qur'an a miracle. My concerns raised in this thread seek to address the pertinent question that leaves one wondering about the claims in Islam for the miracles of Muhammad, especially to the point that the Qur'an bears no inference that he performed any miracles at all.

So, if the Qur'an does not establish even one inference that Muhammad performed any miracles at all, then it is an untenable and unintelligent argument that seeks to claim the opposite.

Now, what you claim for the Qur'an can also be claimed for so many other religions and movements; which again would not make Islam any distinct from them. Men have sought to change the way they think by the same medium - WORD. One very well-established discipline in the pursuit of knowledge in this same inference is PHILOSOPHY, especially its branch relating to epistimology (what counts as genuine knowledge), and logic (from Gk. 'logos', meaning "word, reason or principle"; and concerned with what constitutes the correct principles of reasoning]).

Certainly, the philosophies of the world, from Aristotle to Plato and then to modern philopshers, have challenged us and continue to do so with words "which are to be read" - and in addition, certainly to be understood.

I don't find the Qur'an any more defended as more distinguished than the etymologies that anyone can argue for in the various fields of learning. In which case, my concerns are not about etymologies; but rather more to the point of what MIRACLES of Muhammad can be intelligently defended in the QUR'AN.

May God bless you.

The Quran wouldn't make emphasis on miracles as it considers believing isn't necessarily about witnessing magical/dazzling occurrences but by emphasizing on the information considered to be key to one's success in Life. The emphasis of the Quran has always been "the Kitab" or "the book" or "the sign " and "the word" or "the message" the book brings. Thats the emphasis of the Quran and that i consider to be more important than "Miracles in the Physical".

Muslims as well have in occasions incorporated over emphasizing miracles as a means of Justifying faith. A development i consider de-emphasizes the core of Islam which is Believing , doing good and submitting. My experience in life has been, by believing in the word and submitting , one might as well live a life filled with miracles without necessarily knowing or celebrating every occasion.

For me it simply "Read (IQRA) the Book, get wisdom from it and apply it to your life. You will definitely be successfully". Interestingly thats is the main promise of Islam .I'm happy to have achieved some level of this success though pondering on the Quran.

Witnessing magical occurrences could be helpful but more important is[b] Believing[/b] by means of reasoning and submission.I intend not to argue but to share my view of answer to your Question.

The etymology analysis was to help your understanding of the word "Quran" .

Salam

@abdkabir,

abdkabir:

The Quran wouldn't make emphasis on miracles as it considers believing isn't necessarily about witnessing magical/dazzling occurrences but by emphasizing on the information considered to be key to one's success in Life. The emphasis of the Quran has always been "the Kitab" or "the book" or "the sign " and "the word" or "the message" the book brings. Thats the emphasis of the Quran and that i consider to be more important than "Miracles in the Physical".

Sorry, but this will go a very long way to knot your argument. If you make any attempt to equate miracles with "magical/dazzling occurences", then you have rubbished the Qur'an for having recorded the miracles of Jesus.

The fact that the Qur'an could not deny the miracles of Jesus (even though it distorts His identity) is testimony to the fact that there was something that set Him apart from Muhammad.

The "book, sign, word, message" are issues which even Asiatic and oriental religions deal with in more profound ways than does the Qur'an; so there's no argument there.

abdkabir:

Muslims as well have in occasions incorporated over emphasizing miracles as a means of Justifying faith. A development i consider de-emphasizes the core of Islam which is Believing , doing good and submitting. My experience in life has been, by believing in the word and submitting , one might as well live a life filled with miracles without necessarily knowing or celebrating every occasion.

You haven't begun to touch the kernel of this topic, abdkabir. Look again at the issues you employ in your post: believing, doing good, and submitting - do these things distinguish Islam from Buddhism, Taoism, and other religions of eastern philosophies?

You really don't strike a chord here; because so many people live very "successful" lives outside of religion - and they don't consider that 'miraculous'. We can all be thankful for the daily gifts of grace; but how does the ordinary stand on the same pedestal as the supernatural? It is the idea that the supernatural can be viewed in any sense as "a life filled with miracles without necessarily knowing" it, that leads to the indefensible theories for Muhammad's career as a prophet.

abdkabir:

For me it simply "Read (IQRA) the Book, get wisdom from it and apply it to your life. You will definitely be successfully". Interestingly thats is the main promise of Islam .I'm happy to have achieved some level of this success though pondering on the Quran.

If the main promise of Islam is to be "successful", you have unwittingly deflated any sense of a real distinguishing purpose that sets it apart from other philosophies on the "success" supermarket.

abdkabir:

Witnessing magical occurrences could be helpful but more important is[b] Believing[/b] by means of reasoning and submission.I intend not to argue but to share my view of answer to your Question.

I appreciate any attempts you make to answer my question; but nothing so far has been captivating. And again, may I remind you: a MIRACLE is not is the same thing as a "magical occurence" - that is not how the miracles of Jesus are portrayed in the Qur'an.

abdkabir:

The etymology analysis was to help your understanding of the word "Quran" .

Salam

Thanks, but the "etymology" is completely off the mark.

Blessings.

@ pilgrim1

Your counter-responses suggest an already made mindset on this issue before asking the Question starting this thread.

I'm convinced miracles/extra-ordinary events/magical occurrences are quite related but more important is believing in the True Word(God and doing good). This is not meant to ignore/ under recognise the importance of the miracles of the Men of God but to emphasize the importance of the message/word/intelligence /wisdom those Men conveyed over the miracle.Miracles are meant to support the Message. Thus the message is meant to be superior .

This is guess is the essence i observe from ways of the good men of Old (Muslim,Christian , Jew or whoever)


Well, since it appears you are resolute on your position, I'd say i wish you be best in affairs.

Regards.

@abdkabir,

abdkabir:

Your counter-responses suggest an already made mindset on this issue before asking the Question starting this thread.

My enquiry was quite straightforward and simply challenging the popular belief in Islam that Muhammad performed any miracle at all. If he performed NONE recorded in the Qur'an, then he performed none outside of that book. I'm willing to be corrected where I might have inadvertently missed the evidence for his miracles in the Qur'an. Has any Muslim provided such a verse? And yet you write me off as having an already made up mindset before posting the query?

In all my years as a former Muslim, we've been told so many stuff that are simply NOT true. We dreaded (and still dread) engaging our thinking faculties to investigate the religion and claims of Muhammad - even in the face of obvious evidence that contradict such claims. Tell me, dear abdkabir, if that is not programming the mind to make automatons out of people, then why is my question a huge challenge to otherwise intelligent Muslims?

abdkabir:

I'm convinced miracles/extra-ordinary events/magical occurrences are quite related but more important is believing in the True Word(God and doing good). This is not meant to ignore/ under recognise the importance of the miracles of the Men of God but to emphasize the importance of the message/word/intelligence /wisdom those Men conveyed over the miracle.Miracles are meant to support the Message. Thus the message is meant to be superior .

Which brings us right back to the same question. If 'miracles are meant to support the message', what miracles were performed by Muhammad to authenticate the message of Islam?

The idea that Muhammad's miracles are recorded in the hadith and not in the Qur'an obviously lacks intelligence and credibility. Why was it so difficult for "the all-wise" and "the all-seeing" Allah to have revealed even one verse in his infallible book to confirm that his slave Muhammad actually performed any miracles? If "the all-seeing" allah did not reveal any such verses in the 23 years of his slave, would the word of his slave be more trustworthy than, and supercede, that of Allah?

My submission stands yet as has been: there are no miracles of Muhammad attested to by Allah anywhere. And that being the case, the book in itself is NOT a miracle, and the idea often vended about any miracle of Muhammad should be scrapped.

abdkabir:

Well, since it appears you are resolute on your position, I'd say i wish you be best in affairs.

Regards.

I remain resolute until otherwise proven wrong with evidence for Muhammad's miracles in the Qur'an.

Blessings.

@pilgrim


Na wa for my former practising muslim sister .

Anyway, Up Liverpool, down chelsea

Gunners for life.

Your posts will be treated soon after the handshake, victory etc

Stay glued

Dear Sister,

But for Bab987 assertion, i'd been suspecting u were an atheist. Your position that miracle isn't alluded to in the Quran , i guess is flawed. I am suspecting your non recognition of the miracles in the Quran is because it (Quran) didn't refer to miracle in the same context and word as the only other popular religious book we know did (the Bible). Thus , many people failing to see what the Quran says about Miracle.Also, the prevailing social context in recent years,more notably in areas where Muslims are mixed with Christians has made many muslims fall to the error of mimicking the emphasis physical/intriguing events as a basis for believing or not. I'm not saying that miracle/extraordinary happening arent necesarily good for faith,what i'm saynig its should be the primary basis for faith. I consider the primary reasons for faith to be the message of a Man and the simple proof of that message in that mans life that i could also apply to mine. Many at time the simple things like (effect on message on way of life etc) endure longer

The Qu'ran has always backed the authenticity of it position by refering and using the word "ayats" rather than 'miracles'.It has also alayes urged pondering and reasoning onthis 'ayats' that men may understand.

I'II agree with you that, over the years, many in Islam have chosen the path of ignorance perhaps for convinience reason or perhaps for sopme problem within the community i guess shld be confronted.

I am of the opinion that Islam does not support lame submission, it does call people to reasoning just as it urges it be done sustainably. That is , you ponder but while knowing u know not all and shld rely on information from those around you. I do not mean to deny , that there aren't problems of information .

Allah indeed have always mentioned ayats as references for people to understand his word, and the word used has been "Ayats" translated to "Signs". And this is my understanding of the issue.

pilgrim.1:

@abdkabir,

In all my years as a former Muslim, we've been told so many stuff that are simply NOT true. We dreaded (and still dread) engaging our thinking faculties to investigate the religion and claims of Muhammad - even in the face of obvious evidence that contradict such claims. Tell me, dear abdkabir, if that is not programming the mind to make automatons out of people, then why is my question a huge challenge to otherwise intelligent Muslims?

Well, i do not dispute this claim but also i guess it hasn't been a general situation. I guess i can speak for myself and family that Islam has been an issue open to discussion and pondering since i was a kid. This is not to suggest that there were points of view i simply submitted to @ some stage in my life still, such submissions many at times turned to be helpful later in life when i understood the benefits therein. I tend to believe there is more to address in the way the present generation teach Islam. I agree there are some elements of forced imposition of teachings within the present teaching methods within the community but I'm also of the opinion that by looking within Islam, we can solve this problems if we wish to.

To give an emphatic answer on the miracle issue, a thought just came in:

Judging the Sources of Islam Jurisprudence are two (Quran and Sunnah) and that both help one another in some way. The Quranic reference to ayats/signs and the hadith reference to miracles is indeed reconcilable. Interestingly, i haven't really been two bothered or shld i say based my faith on the miracle stories of the prophet in the Sunnah. I have rather based my learning in life on the examples & ayats of people past which Allah mentioned in the Quran.

017.089

YUSUFALI: And We have explained to man, in this Qur'an, every kind of similitude: yet the greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude!

PICKTHAL: And verily We have displayed for mankind in this Qur'an all kind of similitudes, but most of mankind refuse aught save disbelief.

SHAKIR: And certainly We have explained for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying.

Kind regards and God Bless.

abdkabir:

Dear Sister,

But for Bab987 assertion, i'd been suspecting u were an atheist. Your position that miracle isn't alluded to in the Quran , i guess is flawed. I am suspecting your non recognition of the miracles in the Quran is because it (Quran) didn't refer to miracle in the same context and word as the only other popular religious book we know did (the Bible). Thus , many people failing to see what the Quran says about Miracle.Also, the prevailing social context in recent years,more notably in areas where Muslims are mixed with Christians has made many muslims fall to the error of mimicking the emphasis physical/intriguing events as a basis for believing or not. I'm saying that miracle.extraordinary happening arent necesarily good for faith,what i'm saynig its should be the primary basis for faith. I consider the primary reasons for faith to be the message of a Man and the simple proof of that message in that mans life that i could also apply to mine. Many at time the simple things like (effect on message on way of life etc) endure longer

The Qu'ran has always backed the authenticity of it position by refering and using the word "ayats" rather than 'miracles'.It has also alayes urged pondering and reasoning onthis 'ayats' that men may understand.

I'II agree with you that, over the years, many in Islam have chosen the path of ignorance perhaps for convinience reason or perhaps for sopme problem within the community i guess shld be confronted.

I am of the opinion that Islam does not support lame submission, it does call people to reasoning just as it urges it be done sustainably. That is , you ponder but while knowing u know not all and shld rely on information from those around you. I do not mean to deny , that there aren't problems of information .

Allah indeed have always mentioned ayats as references for people to understand his word, and the word used has been "Ayats" translated to "Signs". And this is my understanding of the issue.

All these confused thesis just to "prove" that miracles indeed are mentioned in the quran? After using 345 words, you still failed to provide JUST ONE evidence of the miracles mentioned in the quran. A long winded treatise on ayats and the ignorance of muslims is not required!

Dont lets bother reading the rest of your confused theory. Just give us ONE miracle mentioned in the quran attributed to MOHAMMED and it sufficeth us!

@pataki

All these confused thesis just to "prove" that miracles indeed are mentioned in the quran? After using 345 words, you still failed to provide JUST ONE evidence of the miracles mentioned in the quran. A long winded treatise on ayats and the ignorance of muslims is not required!

Dont lets bother reading the rest of your confused theory. Just give us ONE miracle mentioned in the quran attributed to MOHAMMED and it sufficeth us!


There is no miracle attributed to him in the Quran. Are yu ok? So let me have more your claims.

Ignorance is truly a disease.

babs787:

@pataki

All these confused thesis just to "prove" that miracles indeed are mentioned in the quran? After using 345 words, you still failed to provide JUST ONE evidence of the miracles mentioned in the quran. A long winded treatise on ayats and the ignorance of muslims is not required!

Dont lets bother reading the rest of your confused theory. Just give us ONE miracle mentioned in the quran attributed to MOHAMMED and it sufficeth us!


There is no miracle attributed to him in the Quran. Are yu ok? So let me have more your claims.

Ignorance is truly a disease.

Lol, I guess that was supposed to be addressed to davidylan, and not pataki.

The cure for ignorance as a disease is why this thread was started in the first place.

@abdkabir,

abdkabir:

But for Bab987 assertion, i'd been suspecting u were an atheist. Your position that miracle isn't alluded to in the Quran , i guess is flawed. I am suspecting your non recognition of the miracles in the Quran is because it (Quran) didn't refer to miracle in the same context and word as the only other popular religious book we know did (the Bible).

You're greatly mistaken, dear abdkabir. My position is not at all "that miracle isn't alluded to in the Qur'an". As a matter of fact, I earlier made reference to the miracles of Jesus mentioned in the Qur'an:

pilgrim.1:

If the Qur'an mentioned the miracles of Jesus, why does it fail to mention that of Muhammad?? In the Qur'an, Jesus is heard saying: "And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead" (QUR'AN. 3:49).

That said, it only comes back to you that your opening paragraph is colossally flawed. As a matter of fact, if you have been carefully following my strain of argument, you couldn't have failed to miss the context and gist of my query:

"WHERE IN THE QURAN ARE THE MIRACLES MUHAMMAD PERFORMED TO PROVE HE WAS THE LAST AND GREATEST PROPHET??"

. . . and I've consistently maintained this inference:

"That is why my statement stands: If Muhammad had NO miracles IN the Qur'an, then he performed NO miracles outside of the Qur'an!!"

abdkabir:

Thus , many people failing to see what the Quran says about Miracle.Also, the prevailing social context in recent years,more notably in areas where Muslims are mixed with Christians has made many muslims fall to the error of mimicking the emphasis physical/intriguing events as a basis for believing or not. I'm saying that miracle.extraordinary happening arent necesarily good for faith,what i'm saynig its should be the primary basis for faith.

Did you make a mistake here and instead meant what you're saying or rather what you're not saying?

abdkabir:

I consider the primary reasons for faith to be the message of a Man and the simple proof of that message in that mans life that i could also apply to mine. Many at time the simple things like (effect on message on way of life etc) endure longer

The Qu'ran has always backed the authenticity of it position by refering and using the word "ayats" rather than 'miracles'.It has also alayes urged pondering and reasoning onthis 'ayats' that men may understand.

Okay, your opinion.

abdkabir:

I'II agree with you that, over the years, many in Islam have chosen the path of ignorance perhaps for convinience reason or perhaps for sopme problem within the community i guess shld be confronted.

I am of the opinion that Islam does not support lame submission, it does call people to reasoning just as it urges it be done sustainably. That is , you ponder but while knowing u know not all and shld rely on information from those around you. I do not mean to deny , that there aren't problems of information .

I strongly disagree with the inference that "Islam does not support lame submission". On the contrary it does - and that is why the Islamic way of thinking is ever shifting in the puerile interpretations of the Ulema who use it for their own political ends. Pardon me, but let me say that the call to reason in Islam is fictive and a postiche, ever will be so, as long as they strongly hold onto the view that even if one is right, he/she is still in error!

Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 25, Number 3644:
Narrated Jundub: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If anyone interprets the Book of Allah in the light of his opinion even if he is right, he has erred.

So, where do you go from a situation like that?

@abdkabir

abdkabir:

Allah indeed have always mentioned ayats as references for people to understand his word, and the word used has been "Ayats" translated to "Signs". And this is my understanding of the issue.

I was waiting for any Muslim to mention this. My question to you: how have the "Ayats" of the Qur'an miraculously HEALED the physically needy?

Whether translated as "signs" or "miracles", there's just no going round this topic as far as any mention of the miracles of MUHAMMAD are concerned. This is why I observe that the so-called English translations of the Qur'an are only reflecting the political agenda of their translators. And for all of that, there still are no "signs" in the Qur'an that can be attributed to Muhammad in the sense of a miracle in the same way that we read of a direct reference to those which Jesus performed (Q. 3:49).

abdkabir:

Well, i do not dispute this claim but also i guess it hasn't been an general situation. I guess i can speak for myself and family that Islam has been an issue open to discussion and pondering since i was a kid. This is not to suggest that there were points of view i simply submitted to @ some stage in my life still, such submissions many at times turned to be helpful later in life when i understood the benefits therein. I tend to believe there is more to address in the way the present generation teach Islam. I agree there are some elements of forced imposition of teachings within the present teaching methods within the community but I'm also of the opinion that by looking within Islam, we can solve this problems if we wish to.

That's another thing I would like readers to take note of: the "elements of forced imposition of teachings" in Islam. It is arguable either way that such elements are foundation, dating back to the very birth of Islam, and confirmed in several texts of Islamic sources.

abdkabir:

To give an emphatic answer on the miracle issue, a thought just came in:

Judging the Sources of Islam Jurisprudence are two (Quran and Sunnah) and that both help one another in some way. The Quranic reference to ayats/signs and the hadith reference to miracles is indeed reconcilable. Interestingly, i haven't really been two bothered or shld i say based my faith on the mircacle stories of the prophet in the Sunnah. I have rather based my learning in life on the examples & ayats of people past which Allah mentioned in the Quran.

If the "Quranic reference to ayats/signs and the hadith reference to miracles is indeed reconcilable", why has it been so difficult to find the verses in the Qur'an for any mention of a miracle that Muhammad performed?

One may not be too bothered or base one's faith on the miracle references of any prophet; but that is like saying that verifying the authenticity of prophethood is not all that important. Why? Because Muhammad himself acknowledged the miracles of other prophets in unmistakable terms:

'Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Every Prophet was given miracles because of which people believed, but what I have been given, is Divine Inspiration which Allah has revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will outnumber the followers of the other Prophets on the Day of Resurrection."' [Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 6, Book 61, #504]

'Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "There was no prophet among the prophets but was given miracles because of which people had security or had belief, but what I was given was the Divine Inspiration which Allah revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will be more than those of any other prophet on the Day of Resurrection."' [Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 9, Book 92, #379]

Infact, for those who argue that Muhammad's miracles are recorded in the hadith, these are direct reference showing that Muhammad did not see himself as one of the prophets who had been given any power to perform any miracles. If he could have readily acknowledged that "every prophet" was given a miracle, why then did he seclude himself from that category?




The problem with the Islamic understanding of a miracle is that, it confirms Muhammad has no place among the Biblical prophets even though he claimed to have believed in them. A miracle in Biblical terms was never given for spectacular display, but rather had a threefold purpose (there are certainly more):

(a) to authenticate both the message and messenger (cf. Exo. 4:5 & 19:9; John 11:42; Acts 14:3; Heb. 2:4)

(b) to strengthen the faith of believers in the power of God (1 Cor. 2:4-5)

(c) to glorify God for Who He is in Himself through those miracles (John 11:4 & 40; Acts 4:21).

When you read about the lives and ministries of the Biblical prophets, you find that miracles were also given to confirm the claims that the prophets made of themselves and what they taught about God. More than anyone else in the Bible, it is in the Lord Jesus Christ that we see this revelation clearly presented. He claimed to be the resurrection and the life (John 11:25); and He proved this in His power to heal and raise the dead (John 11:43-44; Luke 7:13-15).

Now, if one should argue that miracles are of insignificant value at all, how should we ever be able to believe the claims Jesus made of Himself in the Bible? How would we have been able to believe and understand His claim to be the Resurrection and the Life if He never raised anyone from the dead or give them life? He said: "the same works that I do, bear witness of me. . .the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me" (John 5:36 & 10:25).

Having followed this argument carefully, abdkabir, one must seriously question the claims made about Muhammad in Islam. What miracles of Muhammad are offered in the Qur'an to authenticate the claim that he is "the last and greatest prophet"?? WHERE IN THE QUR'AN are the miracles of MUHAMMAD ever spoken about to authenticate the claims Muslims hold about him??

Merely telling us about the ayat is a weak excuse that begs the question. I'd rather we drop the facade and face up to the challenge:

IF MUHAMMAD PERFORMED NO MIRACLES IN THE QUR'AN, THEN HE PERFORMED NONE OUTSIDE THE SAME QUR'AN!!

Regards.

@pilgrims


If the "Quranic reference to ayats/signs and the hadith reference to miracles is indeed reconcilable", why has it been so difficult to find the verses in the Qur'an for any mention of a miracle that Muhammad performed?


Okay, I will help. But note that the Quran is not like the bible where we have the words of historians.

Quran 53 v 11; The prophet heart's lied not in what he saw

v12; Will you then dispute with him about what he saw during the ascension to seven heavens.

v 13: and indeed he Muhammed saw Jibril as a second descent (second time)

v 14: near a lote-tree of the utmost boundary over the seventh heaven beyond which none can pass.

v 15; near it is the Paradise of Abode.

v 17; the sight of Muhammed turned not asise right or left nor ir transgressed beyond the limit ordained for it.

v 18; Indeed hu Muhammed did see of the Greatest signs, of his Lord.

Now if you dont understand, he went on a night journey to heavens which no
prophets have done.


One may not be too bothered or base one's faith on the miracle references of any prophet; but that is like saying that verifying the authenticity of prophethood is not all that important. Why? Because Muhammad himself acknowledged the miracles of other prophets in unmistakable terms:


Despite Jesus' miracles, did Jews believe him?




Infact, for those who argue that Muhammad's miracles are recorded in the hadith, these are direct reference showing that Muhammad did not see himself as one of the prophets who had been given any power to perform any miracles. If he could have readily acknowledged that "every prophet" was given a miracle, why then did he seclude himself from that category?


Did he? Cool down, read above please.




The problem with the Islamic understanding of a miracle is that, it confirms Muhammad has no place among the Biblical prophets even though he claimed to have believed in them. A miracle in Biblical terms was never given for spectacular display, but rather had a threefold purpose (there are certainly more):


You thought so? I am not here to argue the supremacy of prophets.


(a) to authenticate both the message and messenger (cf. Exo. 4:5 & 19:9; John 11:42; Acts 14:3; Heb. 2:4)

(b) to strengthen the faith of believers in the power of God (1 Cor. 2:4-5)

(c) to glorify God for Who He is in Himself through those miracles (John 11:4 & 40; Acts 4:21).

Am still asking you, despite his miracles, did the Jews believe in him during his time?


When you read about the lives and ministries of the Biblical prophets, you find that miracles were also given to confirm the claims that the prophets made of themselves and what they taught about God. More than anyone else in the Bible, it is in the Lord Jesus Christ that we see this revelation clearly presented. He claimed to be the resurrection and the life (John 11:25); and He proved this in His power to heal and raise the dead (John 11:43-44; Luke 7:13-15).


I asked you a question on why Jesus didnt raise the dead father of one of his disciples cos I learnt that he brought to life someone that died for three days.


Now, if one should argue that miracles are of insignificant value at all, how should we ever be able to believe the claims Jesus made of Himself in the Bible? How would we have been able to believe and understand His claim to be the Resurrection and the Life if He never raised anyone from the dead or give them life? He said: "the same works that I do, bear witness of me. . .the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me" (John 5:36 & 10:25).


What resurrection are you saying here? You better dont start what you cant finish. What of Mathew 8 v 21-22


Having followed this argument carefully, abdkabir, one must seriously question the claims made about Muhammad in Islam. What miracles of Muhammad are offered in the Qur'an to authenticate the claim that he is "the last and greatest prophet"?? WHERE IN THE QUR'AN are the miracles of MUHAMMAD ever spoken about to authenticate the claims Muslims hold about him??

So you are expecting God to say, 'my servant will wake up the dead, open the eyes of the blind etc'. Take it or leave, his deeds are recorded in the Hadith and Sunnah. Thats is why the Bible is being challenged day in day as being 100% word of God.



IF MUHAMMAD PERFORMED NO MIRACLES IN THE QUR'AN, THEN HE PERFORMED NONE OUTSIDE THE SAME QUR'AN!!

Okay he didnt o.

@babs787,

babs787:

Okay, I will help. But note that the Quran is not like the bible where we have the words of historians.

This is merely arguing from regression. If there are no "histories" in the Qur'an, then it is an empty book! In so far as it records the miracles of Jesus, what prevented the same recording of any miracle of Muhammad?

babs787:

Quran 53 v 11; The prophet heart's lied not in what he saw
- - -
v 18; Indeed hu Muhammed did see of the Greatest signs, of his Lord.

Now if you don't understand, he went on a night journey to heavens which no
prophets have done.

Nice attempt, but it simply flies in the face of its own inconsistency. It is not said there that Muhammad performed any miracle. Granted, he may have "seen" the signs of "his Lord" (very doubtful in light of the hadiths); but WHERE in the Qur'an did it say Muhammad himself performed even one miracle?

babs787:

Despite Jesus' miracles, did Jews believe him?

Is that the issue here, or is that an excuse to again circumvent and dribble away from this topic? For your information, this question that you have recycled in other threads is now worn out. The Bible shows that many Jews believed on Jesus Christ:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did." - John 2:23.

"And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?" - John 7:31

"Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him." - John 11:45

babs787:

Did he? Cool down, read above please.

I''ve read it; nothing changes.

babs787:

You thought so? I am not here to argue the supremacy of prophets.

Then you need not bother argue what you clearly cannot. It is Muslims who argue for the supremacy of Muhammad; and that is another challenge that this thread debunks.

babs787:

Am still asking you, despite his miracles, did the Jews believe in him during his time?

Answers given above; and that question is now dog-tired; throw it to the bin.

babs787:

I asked you a question on why Jesus didnt raise the dead father of one of his disciples because I learnt that he brought to life someone that died for three days.

If that question was meant to ridicule the miracles of Jesus, it would be laughable.

Qur'an 3:49
Jesus: "I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead."

Is Qur'an 3:49 a part of Allah's word, or you now want to make a case for denying what it says?

babs787:

What resurrection are you saying here? You better don't start what you can't finish. What of Mathew 8 v 21-22

What about Qur'an 3:49? Please, start another argument on that, and let's see if you can finish it!

babs787:

So you are expecting God to say, 'my servant will wake up the dead, open the eyes of the blind etc'. Take it or leave, his deeds are recorded in the Hadith and Sunnah. Thats is why the Bible is being challenged day in day as being 100% word of God.

I simply don't care HOW the Qur'an says it - translated or otherwise from arabic to the politically flavoured leanings of the English translators. As long as it says even in one verse that Muhammad performed ANY miracle, it would suffice. At least, the miracles of Jesus were mentioned (Q.3:49); what is wrong then with even mentioning ONE miracle performed by Muhamad?

babs787:

Okay he didnt o.

Good. Any more?

It appears it never Ends.

I'm comfortable with Islam and do not believe men should earnestly base their believe on physical miraculous events rather on simple and clear rational ideas or events on which they could ponder and agree with. Nonetheless, i shall henceforth include here references of Signs(u call it miracles) attributed to Muhammad and the prophets (Jesus,Moses et al) in the Quran. From such simple thing greater thing could emanate. Well that how i see and have experienced things.

<sub>Quote from: abdkabir on Today at 01:41:30 AM
Thus , many people failing to see what the Quran says about Miracle.Also, the prevailing social context in recent years,more notably in areas where Muslims are mixed with Christians has made many muslims fall to the error of mimicking the emphasis physical/intriguing events as a basis for believing or not. I'm saying that miracle.extraordinary happening arent necesarily good for faith,what i'm saynig its should be the primary basis for faith.

Did you make a mistake here and instead meant what you're saying or rather what you're not saying?</sub>

Sorry, I did and have corrected that.

^{I strongly disagree with the inference that "Islam does not support lame submission". On the contrary it does - and that is why the Islamic way of thinking is ever shifting in the puerile interpretations of the Ulema who use it for their own political ends. Pardon me, but let me say that the call to reason in Islam is fictive and a postiche, ever will be so, as long as they strongly hold onto the view that even if one is right, he/she is still in error!}

Getting tired You need to love and related to d context to understand,well thats my belief. Unfortunately few do these now a days. Many have turned to absolutism while other to the opposite direction. The basic premise for the Abu Dawud bk 25,3644 is simple, "No one interpretes a verse of the Quran based on his own opinion only but rather has to do a critical analysis of the verse with respect to all or many previous opinions to its revelation and then ones personal conclusion. The reasons for this is that written words do not capture the whole of the message and thus past commentaries as near as possible to the revelation of the verse would help shed more light as to the context of revelation.
It should be to noted that this is also the practice within scientific cycles. That in analysing an issue you should critically evaluate previous point of views to such issue before coming to your conclusions. This is my understanding of the Hadith and this is Hod i have always taking the issues of the Sunnah.

I guess this resource could shed more light on the issue:http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/scienceofhadith/atit.html


Salam and wish u the best in your affairs.


Please find below verses of the Quran as translated by Yusuf Ali, M Pickthal & SHAKIR

1st Verse

003.183

YUSUFALI: They (also) said: "Allah took our promise not to believe in an messenger unless He showed us a sacrifice consumed by Fire (From heaven)." Say: "There came to you messengers before me, with clear Signs and even with what ye ask for: why then did ye slay them, if ye speak the truth?"

PICKTHAL: (The same are) those who say: Lo! Allah hath charged us that we believe not in any messenger until he bring us an offering which fire (from heaven) shall devour. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Messengers came unto you before me with miracles, and with that (very miracle) which ye describe. Why then did ye slay them? (Answer that) if ye are truthful!

SHAKIR: (Those are they) who said: Surely Allah has enjoined us that we should not believe in any messenger until he brings us an offering which the fire consumes. Say: Indeed, there came to you messengers before me with clear arguments and with that which you demand; why then did you kill them if you are truthful?


2nd Verse

004.153

YUSUFALI: [/b]The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority.

[b]PICKTHAL: The people of the Scripture ask of thee that thou shouldst cause an (actual) Book to descend upon them from heaven. They asked a greater thing of Moses aforetime, for they said: Show us Allah plainly. The storm of lightning seized them for their wickedness. Then (even) after that) they chose the calf (for worship) after clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) had come unto them. And We forgave them that! And We bestowed on Moses evident authority.

SHAKIR: The followers of the Book ask you to bring down to them a book from heaven; so indeed they demanded of Musa a greater thing than that, for they said: Show us Allah manifestly; so the lightning overtook them on account of their injustice. Then they took the calf (for a god), after clear signs had come to them, but We pardoned this; and We gave to Musa clear authority.


020.133

YUSUFALI: They say: "Why does he not bring us a sign from his Lord?" Has not a Clear Sign come to them of all that was in the former Books of revelation?

PICKTHAL: And they say: If only he would bring us a miracle from his Lord! Hath there not come unto them the proof of what is in the former scriptures?

SHAKIR: [/b]And they say: Why does he not bring to us a sign from his Lord? Has not there come to them a clear evidence of what is m the previous books?


030.058

[b]YUSUFALI: verily We have propounded for men, in this Qur'an every kind of Parable: But if thou bring to them any Sign, the Unbelievers are sure to say, "Ye do nothing but talk vanities."

PICKTHAL: Verily We have coined for mankind in this Qur'an all kinds of similitudes; and indeed if thou camest unto them with a miracle, those who disbelieve would verily exclaim: Ye are but tricksters!


SHAKIR: And certainly We have set forth for men every kind of example in this Quran; and if you should bring them a communication, those who disbelieve would certainly say: You are naught but false claimants.

054.002

YUSUFALI: But if they see a Sign, they turn away, and say, "This is (but) transient magic."

PICKTHAL: [/b]And if they behold a portent they turn away and say: Prolonged illusion.
[b]
SHAKIR: And if they see a miracle they turn aside and say: Transient magic.

002.099

YUSUFALI: We have sent down to thee Manifest Signs (ayat); and none reject them but those who are perverse.

PICKTHAL: Verily We have revealed unto thee clear tokens, and only miscreants will disbelieve in them.

SHAKIR: And certainly We have revealed to you clear communications and none disbelieve in them except the transgressors.

003.013


YUSUFALI: "There has already been for you a Sign in the two armies that met (in combat): One was fighting in the cause of Allah, the other resisting Allah; these saw with their own eyes Twice their number. But Allah doth support with His aid whom He pleaseth. In this is a warning for such as have eyes to see."


PICKTHAL: There was a token for you in two hosts which met: one army fighting in the way of Allah, and another disbelieving, whom they saw as twice their number, clearly, with their very eyes. Thus Allah strengtheneth with His succour whom He will. Lo! herein verily is a lesson for those who have eyes.


SHAKIR: Indeed there was a sign for you in the two hosts (which) met together in encounter; one party fighting in the way of Allah and the other unbelieving, whom they saw twice as many as themselves with the sight of the eye and Allah strengthens with His aid whom He pleases; most surely there is a lesson in this for those who have sight

@abdkabir,

abdkabir:

It appears it never Ends.

That is simply because what Muslims have been offering for eons does not hold true and cannot be intelligently defended.

abdkabir:

I'm comfortable with Islam and do not believe men should earnestly base their believe on physical miraculous events rather on simple and clear rational ideas or events on which they could ponder and agree with.

As explained earlier, the place of miracles as authentication of the claim to prophethood is a central among Biblical prophets. If Muhammad claimed to have been sent by that same God who revealed Himself to those prophets, it is germane to ask why the Qur'an failed to state that he performed even one miracle. Not only so, but in this connection I've also asked about the criteria for the typical Muslim claim that Muhammad is "the last and greatest prophet" - what made him greater than any other prophet??

abdkabir:

Sorry, I did and have corrected that.

Salam and wish u the best in your affairs.

No worries. And thanks for your intelligent responses.

Regards Had thought this would never come! Cheers!

@abdkabir,

When I posted my previous rejoinder, there was a shorter version of yours. No qualms in your having edited yours; and there are a few issues I'd just like to point out in consequence thereto:

abdkabir:

Many have turned to absolutism while other to the opposite direction. The basic premise for the Abu Dawud bk 25,3644 is simple, "No one interpretes a verse of the Quran based on his own opinion only but rather has to do a critical analysis of the verse with respect to all or many previous opinions to its revelation and then ones personal conclusion.

I should remind you of two well-established issues here in Islam:

(a) "one's personal conclusion" or inferences in any form of analysis and/or critical thinking is rejected wholesale in Islam;

(b) that very hadith (Abu-Dawud Bk. 25, #3644) is antithetical to what you've just stated. The hadith unequivocally states that even if someone is right, the person is considered to be have erred!!

So, even if one was to consider issues from a scholarly point of reference after having duely consulted "all or many previous opinions to its revelations", at the end of the day you may be considered having worked hard to produce a colossal error.

abdkabir:

The reasons for this is that written words do not capture the whole of the message and thus past commentaries as near as possible to the revelation of the verse would help shed more light as to the context of revelation.
It should be to noted that this is also the practice within scientific cycles. That in analysing an issue you should critically evaluate previous point of views to such issue before coming to your conclusions. This is my understanding of the Hadith and this is Hod i have always taking the issues of the Sunnah.

This wouldn't make any sense in so far as "written words" and "commentaries" are expressed in the same mode: written! If one is unable to capture the essence of a message except through consulting commentaries, then chances are nill to come up with any coherence in delivery. Besides, the available commentaries of most scholars are simply dilated and do not hold a consistent and coherent interpretation of many issues.

abdkabir:

I guess this resource could shed more light on the issue:http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/scienceofhadith/atit.html

I would have to be honest with you: it hardly settles anything other than offering the flavour of the leanings of the guys hosting the site.

abdkabir:

Please find below verses of the Quran as translated by Yusuf Ali, M Pickthal & SHAKIR

Thanks for the offer of those verses - they're part of those I carefully examined before posting this topic. My candid advise is that you carefully study them yourself and ask only this question: WHY did Muhammad make excuses in all those verses without a clear reference to even one of his own miracles by the power of God?

It is highly disingenuous for any Muslim to make a claim for any miracle of Muhammad outside of the Qur'an when none was recorded inside it after several cases of enquiries to the point. It is easy to make excuses with cleverly woven verbiage pretended as "revelations" when a so-called prophet is requested to authenticate his claim to prophethood.

Muhammad certainly felt the pressure to authenticate prophethood; and when you consider Sura 4.153, you honestly have to ask yourself where this question was ever asked by the Jews in Moses' day: "They asked a greater thing of Moses aforetime, for they said: Show us Allah plainly."

Dear abdkabir, let me challenge you: for the sake of honesty, please where in the TORAH did Muhammad learn that the Jews ever asked Moses that question?? Have you carefully tried to read the Bible for yourself and honesty lay all prejudices aside in order to discover if Muhammad's "revelation" in that verse was true? Nowhere have I come across any such question of the Jews; so where did Muhammad get his reconstructed narrative from?

The bottomline is that, in all the queries served Muhammad for any reference to miracles he might have performed, the Qur'an declares he had none! Therefore, if he had none inside the Qur'an, he had none outside that book. And that being the case, it's high time we honestly and boldly challenge the many baseless claims trumped up about Muhammad, Islam and the Qur'an that are simply not true.

Best regards.