This is an offshoot from this thread here

vedaxcool:

ALIAR-TEARS, IT IS A PITY THAT YOUR LIES  are only second the devil's deceit as i have explained the Hadith, refers to bad Muslims, as Nonpugeter has written and I concur. . .

^^^Oh, so you concede that there are bad Muslims who will enter Hell.

But you initially said this:

vedaxcool:

In all this versions you have quoted where does it indicate that all muslims shall enter hell they all indicate coming within rage og it it is just like passing over an ocean would one say that you have entered the ocean? guess not

Implying that Muslims will only actually come near or pass by the Fire.
And now you agree that bad Muslims go to Hell.

So that raises the question: Who is the good Muslim that goes to Heaven without entering Hell? Even you vedaxcool can not answer that question for you have no way of knowing before the Day of Judgment whether you have done enough good deeds to qualify as a "good" Muslim.
Even Muhammad the "best" Muslim in his own words says on the Day of Judgment he will be in Hell!

Volume 1, Book 12, Number 770:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The people said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He replied, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the full moon on a clear (not cloudy) night?" They replied, "No, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the sun when there are no clouds?" They replied in the negative. He said, "You will see Allah (your Lord) in the same way. On the Day of Resurrection, people will be gathered and He will order the people to follow what they used to worship. So some of them will follow the sun, some will follow the moon, and some will follow other deities; and only this nation (Muslims) will be left with its hypocrites. Allah will come to them and say, 'I am Your Lord.' They will say, 'We shall stay in this place till our Lord comes to us and when our Lord will come, we will recognize Him. Then Allah will come to them again and say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, 'You are our Lord.' Allah will call them, and As-Sirat (a bridge) will be laid across Hell and I (Muhammad) shall be the first amongst the Apostles to cross it with my followers. Nobody except the Apostles will then be able to speak and they will be saying then, 'O Allah! Save us. O Allah Save us.'

There will be hooks like the thorns of Sa'dan in Hell. Have you seen the thorns of Sa'dan?" The people said, "Yes." He said, "These hooks will be like the thorns of Sa'dan but nobody except Allah knows their greatness in size and these will entangle the people according to their deeds; some of them will fall and stay in Hell forever; others will receive punishment (torn into small pieces) and will get out of Hell, till when Allah intends mercy on whomever He likes amongst the people of Hell, He will order the angels to take out of Hell those who worshipped none but Him alone. The angels will take them out by recognizing them from the traces of prostrations, for Allah has forbidden the (Hell) fire to eat away those traces. So they will come out of the Fire, it will eat away from the whole of the human body except the marks of the prostrations. At that time they will come out of the Fire as mere skeletons.. . .

#1. This Hadith says that Muhammad is not in heaven right now but he is waiting for the 'Day of Judgment' to go into heaven and he will be the first to cross the bridge to go to heaven as we read this
#2. Hadith Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345 also says that while Muhammad was in this world he ascended into heaven and saw many prophets and other Bible characters like Adam, Moses, Jesus and Abraham.

Questions that vedaxcool, et al should give us answers to:
#1. If your prophet saw the paradise while he was still alive and on this earth why he should wait to go to heaven after his death?
#2. Where is your prophet right now and why he is waiting for the 'Day of Judgment?
#3. Why could he not reach heaven while he saw many ancient prophets and the first human of this planet earth - Adam who lived many thousands of years before him.
#4. All are in heaven but your prophet says, he will reach heaven on the Day of Judgment, why?

It is written:
Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
Romans 6:23. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is my way of subscribing to this thread with the hope of learning from the answers that will follow.

Holla moi!

@Aletheis: « on: Today at 03:20:31 PM »

This is an offshoot from this thread here
Quote from: vedaxcool on Yesterday at 04:48:48 PM
ALIAR-TEARS, IT IS A PITY THAT YOUR LIES are only second the devil's deceit as i have explained the Hadith, refers to bad Muslims, as Nonpugeter has written and I concur. . .
^^^Oh, so you concede that there are bad Muslims who will enter Hell.

While the christians believe that there is an inherited sin, we in Islam do not believe this. There is a hadith that the pen is lifted for 4 people; The young, those who have not reached puberty. The people who are unconscious. People who are asleep. People who are mentally not correct, mad, crazy. Those who are crazy, mad as you said do not have the correct mental ability to follow the commandments of Allah. Islam is a religion of Mercy, and condition appropriate, if practiced properly. Read the Quran and hadiths that are in agreement with Quranic verse.

But you initially said this:
Quote from: vedaxcool on August 04, 2010, 12:08 PM
In all this versions you have quoted where does it indicate that all muslims shall enter hell they all indicate coming within rage og it it is just like passing over an ocean would one say that you have entered the ocean? guess not
Implying that Muslims will only actually come near or pass by the Fire.
And now you agree that bad Muslims go to Hell.
So that raises the question: Who is the good Muslim that goes to Heaven without entering Hell?

Michael Phelps can be on a yacht at the riviera, yet he is not in the water. And if you travel to the south, you may drive across Mississippi River, on the bridge over it. Have you entered it? Yet you may have seen it, it you look out right or left side of your car. You may even drive on it in a very fast car, or a jalopy. Either way you will not have fallen into it, if you cross it. On the other hand, some people may actually drive on it and part while stil on it and jump into it without any safety device to kill themselves. Either way, the parties drove on it, saw it, but some were over it in safety, while some perished without crossing it successfully.
Muhammad and his companions for one as a group will cross it successfully. The two successive generations wil. True believers in Islamic monotheism shall. All prophets, and Messengers of Allah shall. True shuadah(s) shall. Shall I introduce you to Issa bin Mayam (AS), a Messenger prophet of Allah? And when you challenge any muslim to show you verses of Paradise that Allah has made for muslims, and those who believed in Islamic monotheism before Muhammad's version of the same, if you cant google to find out the verses, we will help you. InshaAllah. But then, what will you do, after all of these?

Even you vedaxcool can not answer that question for you have no way of knowing before the Day of Judgment whether you have done enough good deeds to qualify as a "good" Muslim.

When you read Surah Fatihah, you will see that it is a prayer that Allah commanded us to make. And the rest of the Quran is Answer of the prayer. In verses 2 to 5 of Surah 2, you wil see the description of the believer. Am sure, Allah Willing (am not arrogant, the reason for saying Allah Willing) Vedaxcool is in this group.

Even Muhammad the "best" Muslim in his own words says on the Day of Judgment he will be in Hell!

We know that you lied already.

Quote
Volume 1, Book 12, Number 770:

Please notice that there is no name of Book of hadith, like Muslim, Bukhari, etc mentioned. How do we make any educated analysis of just saying "Volume 1, Book 12, Number 770? It shows that you are not thinking Aletheia.

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The people said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He replied, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the full moon on a clear (not cloudy) night?" They replied, "No, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "Do you have any doubt in seeing the sun when there are no clouds?" They replied in the negative. He said, "You will see Allah (your Lord) in the same way. On the Day of Resurrection, people will be gathered and He will order the people to follow what they used to worship. So some of them will follow the sun, some will follow the moon, and some will follow other deities; and only this nation (Muslims) will be left with its hypocrites. Allah will come to them and say, 'I am Your Lord.' They will say, 'We shall stay in this place till our Lord comes to us and when our Lord will come, we will recognize Him. Then Allah will come to them again and say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, 'You are our Lord.' Allah will call them, and As-Sirat (a bridge) will be laid across Hell and I (Muhammad) shall be the first amongst the Apostles to cross it with my followers. Nobody except the Apostles will then be able to speak and they will be saying then, 'O Allah! Save us. O Allah Save us.'

There will be hooks like the thorns of Sa'dan in Hell. Have you seen the thorns of Sa'dan?" The people said, "Yes." He said, "These hooks will be like the thorns of Sa'dan but nobody except Allah knows their greatness in size and these will entangle the people according to their deeds; some of them will fall and stay in Hell forever; others will receive punishment (torn into small pieces) and will get out of Hell, till when Allah intends mercy on whomever He likes amongst the people of Hell, He will order the angels to take out of Hell those who worshipped none but Him alone. The angels will take them out by recognizing them from the traces of prostrations, for Allah has forbidden the (Hell) fire to eat away those traces. So they will come out of the Fire, it will eat away from the whole of the human body except the marks of the prostrations. At that time they will come out of the Fire as mere skeletons, . .

#1. This Hadith says that Muhammad is not in heaven right now but he is waiting for the 'Day of Judgment' to go into heaven and he will be the first to cross the bridge to go to heaven as we read this
#2. Hadith Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345 also says that while Muhammad was in this world he ascended into heaven and saw many prophets and other Bible characters like Adam, Moses, Jesus and Abraham.

Questions that vedaxcool, et al should give us answers to:
#1. If your prophet saw the paradise while he was still alive and on this earth why he should wait to go to heaven after his death?

Alhamdulillah that you see that all people will follow what they used to worship, and the MUSLIMs will wait for Allah to spread the sirat (crossing path way) over Hell for the muslims to cross. It is also true that some Muslims will fall in it and remain in it forever, while many will remain for a period and many will cross successfully in the first place. Muhammad (AS), all the prophets and messengers (AS) who you called Biblical characters are part of the larger MUSLIM nation, the companions of Muhammad and the companions of the other Messengers and Prophets, until deviations were introduce shall cross, and all the true muslims till the last generation shall cross. There is no place that know that says Muhammad will enter Hell. If you cant read, then ask us to read to you. Muhammad gave the good news of Paradise to all those muslims who participated in the battle of Badr, in addition to the 10 who he gave the news to the second time; the 4 Kalifahs are part of them. He also said of Bilal bin Rabah the first Muadhin that he saw his foot hill in Paradise. He also told the community that the man who they saw in the mosque of Madina that theprophet said he used to forgive everyone before he slept shall enter paradise for that act alone. He tod Asma'a the older sister of Aisha will enter paradise for just loosing half of her waist clothe which she kept things, like money. He also told a man who asked him that his wish was to be his companion in the day of Judgement that he wil enter paradise. He also said about the former Jewish Rabbi Sayidina Sahabah Abdullah Abdusalaam (RA) that he was in Paradise after his death at the battle of Huud. Do you still want more? So how is the prophet that Allah says that He, His Angel says salaam on and says to believers that if they know what is beneficial to them they will make salaam after hearing his name will go to hell? Tell me, Aletheia. Is the Paradise in Quran made just for show without muslims entering it without going to hell, made for you who is not a muslim, a christian (nasara) or for the rightly guided Muslims?

#2. Where is your prophet right now and why he is waiting for the 'Day of Judgment?

Just like Adam, Idris, Noah, Ibrahim, Lut, Ismail, Isiaq, Yaqub, and all prophets and Messengers, everyone is waiting for the futue, the day of Judgement which Jesus son of Mary did not know when that is. Muhammad (AS) is dead. ALhamdulillah. Can we expect a prophet, a messenger whose duty had been faithfully been discharged remain on earth? In the case of Muhammad, for another 1400 years and counting without end in sight until the end comes, only known by Allah. In this case what should he be doing, when the revelation is already complete? to remain on earth, doing what exactly? Why isnt Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah, to name a few not on earth, one meeting the other until they are all here on earth until the end of time? It does not make any sense for an office holder from Gd to remain around after his duty has been rightfully discharged. Just imagine if Jesus was around when Muhammad declared his prophethood, and Moses was here too. The Jews in their anger if Moses had said that Jesus was his natural successor may have said that Moses was senile by old age now, and Jews and those chriatians may have said the same thing abut Jesus, too. But Allah in His infinite wisdom wants people to make person choice, under the free will he gave us. You can read your Bible saying two opposing things at the same time. Then you have to come to the another comforter which is human. That will be Muhammad (AS).

#3. Why could he not reach heaven while he saw many ancient prophets and the first human of this planet earth - Adam who lived many thousands of years before him.
#4. All are in heaven but your prophet says, he will reach heaven on the Day of Judgment, why?

Muhammd reached heavens and beyond (Miraj). You need to read Surah Najm which you love to quote from so much. Evidently, if you do not know that he reached heaven, you had been just quoting some websites without reading. Muhammad dialogued with all the inhabitants of the heavens in their stations. He received the instructions to make daily salaah and the last 4 verses of Chapter 2 from Allah in this occasion.

It is written:
Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God[/uote]This is what your Bible says, yet you claim that the servant who God sent did not sin and he is a God. Go figure on your conflicting reports.

Romans 6:23. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Since this is a Bibical statement, I say to you that Paul, Peter, Mark, John, Matthew, Timothy, etc are all sinners, since all of them are dead. Jesus your God was dead for a moment, so he was a sinner. I wonder if you looked at this very thoroughly. Who will never taste death? God Almighty the Creator. Even death will die!

^^^Before I rebut your other points, just answer this question which you evaded:

nopuqeater:

Just like Adam, Idris, Noah, Ibrahim, Lut, Ismail, Isiaq, Yaqub, and all prophets and Messengers, everyone is waiting for the futue, the day of Judgement which Jesus son of Mary did not know when that is.

#1. These are the prophets according to you that preceded your prophet who we all know died.
#2. Your prophet clearly stated that he met and spoke to them in Heaven.
#3. So from this we infer that these other prophets are already in Heaven.
#4. Why then is your prophet not already there with them waiting for the Day of Judgment?
#5. Where then is he right now?

And now to address the points you raised in your post above:

nopuqeater:

While the christians believe that there is an inherited sin, we in Islam do not believe this. There is a hadith that the pen is lifted for 4 people; The young, those who have not reached puberty. The people who are unconscious. People who are asleep. People who are mentally not correct, mad, crazy. Those who are crazy, mad as you said do not have the correct mental ability to follow the commandments of Allah. Islam is a religion of Mercy, and condition appropriate, if practiced properly. Read the Quran and hadiths that are in agreement with Quranic verse.

Whatever term you use: original sin or inherited sin, the truth is that all have sinned according to the scriptures except One. Even your Qur'an concedes that, else why would y'all be going on and on about "Islam is a religion of mercy". In fact I make bold to say that you are only repeating what you have been told without considering that the Qur'an actually corroborates what the Bible (the very Word of God) says.
The Qur'an emphatically and plainly teaches that a person can and does suffer because of someone else’s sins, since mankind has suffered as a result of the sin of Adam, Eve and even Cain. Moreover, there are other Qur'anic verses which state that individuals do shoulder the burdens of others. That been the case, I wonder why you find it difficult to apprehend that God's mercy can reach to Jesus bearing our burdens and cleansing us from sin!
Consider the following then:

2.36. But the Shaitan made them both fall from it, and caused them to depart from that (state) in which they were; and We said: Get forth, some of you being the enemies of others, and there is for you in the earth an abode and a provision for a time.
2.37. Then Adam received (some) words from his Lord, so He turned to him mercifully; surely He is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
2.38. We said: Go forth from this (state) all; so surely there will come to you a guidance from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.

^The above text expressly shows that Adam’s sin had a negative impact on all future generations of mankind since in Arabic the YOU in both 2:36 and 38 is plural (referring to more than two), as opposed to the dual.
Here is how renowned Sunni exegete Ibn Kathir explained Q. 2:38-39:
Allah informs of His warning to Adam, his wife and Satan, THEIR OFFSPRING, when he ordered THEM to descend from Paradise. He says he will send messengers with Scriptures, signs and proofs… (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Part 1, Surah Al-Fatiah Surah Al-Baqarah, ayat 1 to 141, Abridged by Sheikh Nasib Ar-Rafa‘i)
Abdullah Yusuf Ali (he translated the Qur'an) says of 2:36: Evidently Adam is the type of all mankind, and the sexes go together in all spiritual matters
And from your own Hadiths we see:

Narrated AbuHurayrah
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: When Allah created Adam, He touched his back, and there fell from his back every soul that He would create from his offspring till the Day of Resurrection and He created between the two eyes of every person a gleam of light. Then He presented them to Adam who said: My Lord who are they? He (the Lord) said: They are your offspring. He (Adam) saw a person from amongst them and he felt attracted towards him and the sparkle of light between his two eyes. He said: My Lord, who is he? (The Lord) said: It is David. He (Adam) said: My Lord, what span of life have you allotted to him? He replied: Sixty years. He said: My Lord, enhance his age from my age (to the extent of forty years). Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: When Adam completed his age life-span with only forty years remaining, there came to him the angel of death. Thereupon Adam said: Are there not forty years left in my life-span? The angel said: Did you not confer your son (forty years). Adam denied it and so did his offspring. Adam forgot and ate (the fruit) of the tree and so his offspring also forgot and he (Adam) committed an error and so did his offspring commit an error.
Transmitted by Tirmidhi. (Al-Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 37)

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. 'O Adam! You are our father WHO DISAPPOINTED US AND TURNED US OUT OF PARADISE.' Then Adam said to him, 'O Moses! Allah favored you with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action WHICH ALLAH HAD WRITTEN IN MY FATE forty years before my creation?' So Adam confuted Moses, Adam confuted Moses," the Prophet added, repeating the Statement three times. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number 611)

^The foregoing clearly demonstrate that Adam's offspring inherited the sinful nature from him.

What the foregoing implies is that the sin of Adam impacted both himself and his descendants as well. This means that we would and should expect to find the Qur'an teaching that man is born sinful, evil, corrupt etc., as a result of the first or original sin. Lo and behold, this is precisely what we find the Qur'an teaching!

#1. Man is unjust and ungrateful.
And He gives you of all that you ask Him; and if you count Allah's favors, you will not be able to number them; most surely man is very unjust, very ungrateful. S. 14:53 Shakir

Cursed be man! how ungrateful is he! S. 80:17 Shakir

Truly man is, to his Lord, ungrateful; And to that (fact) he bears witness (by his deeds); And violent is he in his love of wealth." S. 100:6-8

#2. Man inclines to evil.
"Nor do I absolve my own self (of blame): the (human) soul is certainly prone to evil, unless my Lord do bestow His Mercy: but surely my Lord is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." S. 12:53

By a Soul and Him who balanced it, And BREATHED INTO IT ITS WICKEDNESS and its piety, S. 91:7-8

This is how Muhammad is said to have interpreted this specific text:
Two men of the tribe of Muzaina came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger, what is your opinion that the people do in the world and strive for, is something decreed for them; something preordained for them and will their fate in the Hereafter be determined by the fact that their Prophets brought them teachings which they did not act upon, and thus they became deserving of punishment? Thereupon, he said: Of course, it happens AS IT IS DECREED BY DESTINY AND PREORDAINED FOR THEM, and this view is confirmed by this verse of the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious: "Consider the soul and Him Who made it perfect, THEN BREATHED INTO ITS SIN and its piety" (xci. . (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6406)

#3. Sin is universal.
And if Allah had destroyed men for their iniquity, He would not leave on the earth a single creature, but He respites them till an appointed time; so when their doom will come they shall not be able to delay (it) an hour nor can they bring (it) on (before its time). S. 16:61

#4. Man is incapable of becoming pure in and of himself.
"O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure: but Allah doth purify whom He pleases: and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things)." S. 24:21
^Food for thought: If nopuqeater was born without sin i.e. pure; why would he need al-ilah to purify him?

The reason why Muslims like nopuqeater et al, reject the truth about the inherited sin nature despite what their Qur'an and Hadiths clearly say is that it forces them to confront the reality of the cross which they have rejected!

nopuqeater:

Michael Phelps can be on a yacht at the riviera, yet he is not in the water. And if you travel to the south, you may drive across Mississippi River, on the bridge over it. Have you entered it? Yet you may have seen it, it you look out right or left side of your car. You may even drive on it in a very fast car, or a jalopy. Either way you will not have fallen into it, if you cross it. On the other hand, some people may actually drive on it and part while stil on it and jump into it without any safety device to kill themselves. Either way, the parties drove on it, saw it, but some were over it in safety, while some perished without crossing it successfully.
Muhammad and his companions for one as a group will cross it successfully. The two successive generations wil. True believers in Islamic monotheism shall. All prophets, and Messengers of Allah shall. True shuadah(s) shall. Shall I introduce you to Issa bin Mayam (AS), a Messenger prophet of Allah? And when you challenge any muslim to show you verses of Paradise that Allah has made for muslims, and those who believed in Islamic monotheism before Muhammad's version of the same, if you cant google to find out the verses, we will help you. InshaAllah. But then, what will you do, after all of these?

^
I have already addressed this conclusively elsewhere:

According to surah 19:70-72, everyone will enter into hell, including Muslims:
Then We shall pluck forth from every party whichever of them was the most hardened in disdain of the All-merciful; then We shall know very well those most deserving to burn there. Not one of you there is, but he shall go down to it; that for thy Lord is a thing decreed, determined. Then We shall deliver those that were godfearing; and the evildoers We shall leave there, hobbling on their knees.

A host of translations, hadiths and commentaries show that Muslims understood the passage to mean that all of them will enter hell.
Here is how Muslims render the word wurood in S. 19:71.

1. Muslim Translations of the qur'an

There is not one of you but shall approach it… Pickthall
Not one of you but will pass over it… Y. Ali
And there is not one of you but shall pass over it… Daryabadi
There is not a single one of you, who shall not pass over it… F. Malik
There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell)… Hilali-Khan
And there is not one of you but shall come to it… M.M Ali
And every one of you will come within sight of it… Asad
And there is not one of you but shall come to it… Shakir
And there is not one of you but will come to it… Sher Ali
And there is none of you except he will come to it… SAHEEH INTERNATIONAL
there is not one of you but he will be led up to it… T.B. Irving
Every single one of you must see it… Khalifa
There is none among you, (O those condemned to Hell!), but shall reach there (- the Hell)… Amatul & ‘Abdul Manan ‘Omar
It is the inevitable decree of your Lord that every one of you will be taken to hell. Muhammad Sarwar

2. The Quran’s Use of Wurood

In several places the Quran uses different forms of the word wurood in the same context of people entering hell.

He will go before his people on the Day of Judgment, and lead them into the Fire (fa awradahumu alnnara) (as cattle are led to water): But woeful indeed will be the place to which they are led! S. 11:98 Y. Ali

But the sinners will we drive unto (wirdan) Hell, like flocks driven to the watering. S. 19:86 Rodwell

Verily, ye, and what ye worship beside God, shall be fuel for hell: ye shall go down into it (waridoona). S. 21:98 Rodwell

The only possible meaning in these contexts is that evildoers will actually enter into hell itself. Interestingly, 19:86 appears in the same surah just some fifteen verses after 19:71. Since these contexts are virtually identical to 19:71 it therefore follows to reason that the meaning will be the same as well, especially when some fifteen verses later the same word is used in connection with sinners literally entering hell.
Furthermore, the verse right after 19:71 supports the view that people will literally enter hell:

"And there is not one of you but will come to it. This is an absolute decree of thy Lord. And WE shall save the righteous, and shall leave the wrongdoers therein, on their knees."

The statement that Allah will deliver the righteous and leave the wrongdoer in hell presumes that the righteous are in there as well.

Hence, the usage of the term wurood within the Quran in contexts similar to 19:71, as well as the immediate context of the passage itself, conclusively point in the direction of all people, including all Muslims, having to enter into hell for a short while.

3. SAHIH AL-BUKHARI
. . .Anas then said, "Muhammad talked to us saying, 'On the Day of Resurrection THE PEOPLE will surge with each other like waves, and then they will come to Adam and say, 'Please intercede for us with your Lord.'…
. . . Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for your will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers! My followers!' And then it will be said, 'Go and take out of Hell (Fire) all those who have faith in their hearts, equal to the weight of a barley grain.'
[It goes on and on in the same vein]
. . .Then Allah will say, 'By my Power, and my Majesty, and by My Supremacy, and by My Greatness, I will take out of Hell (Fire) whoever said: 'None has the right to be worshipped except Allah.'" (Volume 9, Book 93, Number 601)
^^Who are the followers of Muhammad, if not people like nopuqeater!

So this is where the union transfer is taking place. More ha dits pls. I'm starting to like them ha dits. But make them shorter, so I don't have to read longer ha diths than my Bible. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Then i laugh sabbathically.

@Aletheia: « #3 on: Yesterday at 09:02:26 PM »

^^^Before I rebut your other points, just answer this question which you evaded:
Quote from: nopuqeater on Yesterday at 06:06:05 PM
Just like Adam, Idris, Noah, Ibrahim, Lut, Ismail, Isiaq, Yaqub, and all prophets and Messengers, everyone is waiting for the futue, the day of Judgement which Jesus son of Mary did not know when that is.
#1. These are the prophets according to you that preceded your prophet who we all know died.
#2. Your prophet clearly stated that he met and spoke to them in Heaven.
#3. So from this we infer that these other prophets are already in Heaven.
#4. Why then is your prophet not already there with them waiting for the Day of Judgment?
#5. Where then is he right now?

You have to be mentally young, regardless of how long you have been on earth. Even from your Bible, you know that Adam died and must have been buried on earth. Let me jump to the death of Abraham on earth. He too, must have been buried on this earth. Let me jump to Jacob who was buried and was "gathered together" with his forefathers, back in Palestine (the strict instruction he left for his descendants in Egypt carried out in the lifetime of the noble Joseph), then Joseph too was carried back to Palestine during Exodus (everyone know this; just watch the movie "Exodus", if your Bible is not something you wanna read). Let me end up with Zachariah and son John. John who was beheaded, must have been buried in Palestine, unless you can explain otherwise.

With the above, you must know that a live person consist of two parts; Body and soul (Soul is also spirit in man). When a person expires therefore the soul/spirit is separated from the lifeless body, the reason he/she is not alive. At least if you dont understand anythng thereby limiting the power of God Almighty WHo created all things without previous example from anyone, anything, etc, you can accept that the spirit soul of these prophets must have been risen to heavens and accepted where Muhammad (AS) said he met them. But Allah is capable of all that He Wills to do. Hence since He took His Messenger Muhammad on this journey of two parts called Isra wa; (and) Miraj, when Muhammad said that he led all the Messengers and Prophets before him and even Angel Gabriel in prayer at Masjid Aqsa, which later was built (though land and not only building is qualifiable as Mosque considering that the end of Ramadhan and Hajj prayers are made in outdoors in many places in the world and even Masjid Haram in Makka, specifically arounfd the Kaa'ba is outs), is in itself a prophetic fulfillment that are found in Quran and Hadith without any doubt confirming Muhammad's Messengership and Prophethood. Muhammad also said that he spoke to all of them; Adam is so stationed at the first heaven so that he can see the soul of his descendants as the enter heavens, those for Paradise he will rejoice on and those for Hell he will weep for. At least this will have to be accepted for the day of Judgement, if not at anytime, hoping that you can reason. Further Muhammad said he dialogue with older and earlier prophet/messsenger Moses (AS) who encouraged him to seek reduction of the numbers of daily Salaah until it became 5 when Muhammad said he was too shy to return for further reduction as Moses suggested, even then.

Considering all of the above, we in Islam know that all these Messengers and or prophets will enter Paradise, while they are stationed even now in the heaven level each is stationed. We know that Jesus and John are stationed in 2nd, while Idris [Enoch] is 3rd confirming what Allah says that "some are elevated above the other (and Jesus and or no one can do anything about Allah's decision, though He is not unjust to any, but does what He wills). You a non muslim must at least accept there is Paradise and Hell, based on what your Bible says. Is anyone of these "Biblical characters" going to Hell, from your viewpoint, even David you called killer, adulterer, murderer, etc? I dont want to weaken your potential argument by doing an overkill on you that you must consider Solomon who had 700 wives and 300 concubines on top of it, while you acclaim that having more than 1 wife is enough to land some man into hell and am sure the woman who made it possible will have to be in hell, too.

God Who creates, Who lifted Elijah up in chariot of fire alive in body and soul (this is from your Bible), lifted Jesus up too, must be capable of doing everything that He Wills, especially when Angel Gabriel used to come to Muhaammad, so often for 23 years, whereby the Isra wa Miraj was within the first 10 years, immediately after the Taif people rejected the Message of Muhammad of islamic Tawhid, whereassome of the genies heard him reciting Quran which led them to accept him as a prophet Messenger in the fashion they knew of Moses (this is in the Quran), took that message to their nation, where many accepted, This Creator must be capable of returning body and soul alive messengers and prophets in such a special occasion as Isra wa Miraj so that the last Messenger and Prophet (read Surah Azhab), can take the final mantle (being the final link in the chain of Messengers and prophets) from those before him, the reason they are assembled all together on this occasion and he leading them and haing the opportunities to talk to them, as he described in the entry to each heaven in the company of Angel Gabriel.

Where is muhammad, you asked? He says that Allah returns his soul to his body, making him alive so that he can receive the "salaam" that believers give him, even though the Angel[s] who bring the salaam made to him already returned greeting of the same quality to the one who made it. Muhammad also said that Allah commanded te earth not to touch (devow) the body of Salihim, the reason Abbass body felt as if he just died though it has been many decades, when it was exhumed to be moved to another grave. With all of these, we must therefore have to accept that muhammad (AS) is not on this earth with us, talking and drinking (why should he after over 1400 years that there is no need for any revelation), etc, so he is dead to us, since thats what we know. But Allah says in the Quran "dont think that the True Believers, like Messengers, Prophets and their companions, etc, are dead. No they are not dead, but alive". Muhammad is a Messenger, Prophet and he qualifies for this description, the reason we heard him describing his contact with the prophets and messengers in the Isra wa Miraj, and the reason he says Allah the Almighty returns his soul to is body.

Read everything before responding.

@Aletheia; « #4 on: Yesterday at 10:13:08 PM »

Whatever term you use: original sin or inherited sin, the truth is that all have sinned according to the scriptures except One.

There is only one Scripture that says all have sinned. It is the Bible that says it. f you know anyone else that you accept as "SCRIPTURE", let us know, now.

Even your Qur'an concedes that, else why would y'all be going on and on about "Islam is a religion of mercy". In fact I make bold to say that you are only repeating what you have been told without considering that the Qur'an actually corroborates what the Bible (the very Word of God) says.

A person does not to have been an adulterer before he seek Mercy of Allah against adultery. Seeking mercy against sins leads you to receive the Mercy of Allah abundantly. ence it is stated that some fasts have the reward which is consequential to forgiveness and mercy against a sin that you have not committed in the future. How are you forgiven and given mercy for the evil you have not done? Simple; Allah shall prevent you from committing it. Allah says if believers feel too good not to seek His Guidance, Mercy, Forgiveness, etc, He is capable of replacing us, the whole of human race and or the believers because of our arrogance with another who will not be arrogant but seek always Mercy, Forgiveness and not proud to seek Guidance. You know Quran did not copy the Bible. Allah Himself already answered you:The tongue of this Quran is new and not like any other revelation before. So when we look at Surah Taha, we see how Allah invites people to read about Moses "Has the story of Moses came to you" was the start of it. Which Scripture grabs your attention like that? Thats is pure journalism at its highest.

The Qur'an emphatically and plainly teaches that a person can and does suffer because of someone else’s sins,

No. Tell me where you see it. Just therefore imagine the opposite from the offspring of a good man. No? Yet you called innocent baby of Abraham a wild ass!

since mankind has suffered as a result of the sin of Adam, Eve and even Cain.

Havin a tendency to do evil, until you do it, you are sinless.

Moreover, there are other Qur'anic verses which state that individuals do shoulder the burdens of others.

Show us the place.

That been the case, I wonder why you find it difficult to apprehend that God's mercy can reach to Jesus bearing our burdens and cleansing us from sin!

If Jesus was truly the bearer of burdens of another, then no Christians will go to hell. Judas Iscariot, according to you would not have committed suicide. I am sure you people call him "sinner". And he is destined to hell. No? Yet he fulfilled what Jesus predicted. No? You see that you have no real argument.

Consider the following then:
Quote
2.36. But the Shaitan made them both fall from it, and caused them to depart from that (state) in which they were; and We said: Get forth, some of you being the enemies of others, and there is for you in the earth an abode and a provision for a time.
2.37. Then Adam received (some) words from his Lord, so He turned to him mercifully; surely He is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
2.38. We said: Go forth from this (state) all; so surely there will come to you a guidance from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.
^The above text expressly shows that Adam’s sin had a negative impact on all future generations of mankind since in Arabic the YOU in both 2:36 and 38 is plural (referring to more than two), as opposed to the dual.

And before we get to Ibn Kathir, we read that the nature of man to sin, fall by it, seekin mercy and forgiveness by it repairs to proper state of trying to be sinless has been established through the situation above. We see also that getting down means that it was from a lofty place to where they will get down to. It is from heavens to earth. We also see that Allah mentions "Guidance" coming to mankind from Him, Oneness of Allah which is the way to achieve success is also established.

Here is how renowned Sunni exegete Ibn Kathir explained Q. 2:38-39:
Allah informs of His warning to Adam, his wife and Satan, THEIR OFFSPRING, when he ordered THEM to descend from Paradise. He says he will send messengers with Scriptures, signs and proofs… (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Part 1, Surah Al-Fatiah Surah Al-Baqarah, ayat 1 to 141, Abridged by Sheikh Nasib Ar-Rafa‘i)
Abdullah Yusuf Ali (he translated the Qur'an) says of 2:36: Evidently Adam is the type of all mankind, and the sexes go together in all spiritual matters
And from your own Hadiths we see:
Quote
Narrated AbuHurayrah
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: When Allah created Adam, He touched his back, and there fell from his back every soul that He would create from his offspring till the Day of Resurrection and He created between the two eyes of every person a gleam of light. Then He presented them to Adam who said: My Lord who are they? He (the Lord) said: They are your offspring. He (Adam) saw a person from amongst them and he felt attracted towards him and the sparkle of light between his two eyes. He said: My Lord, who is he? (The Lord) said: It is David. He (Adam) said: My Lord, what span of life have you allotted to him? He replied: Sixty years. He said: My Lord, enhance his age from my age (to the extent of forty years). Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: When Adam completed his age life-span with only forty years remaining, there came to him the angel of death. Thereupon Adam said: Are there not forty years left in my life-span? The angel said: Did you not confer your son (forty years). Adam denied it and so did his offspring. Adam forgot and ate (the fruit) of the tree and so his offspring also forgot and he (Adam) committed an error and so did his offspring commit an error.
Transmitted by Tirmidhi. (Al-Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 37)
Quote
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. 'O Adam! You are our father WHO DISAPPOINTED US AND TURNED US OUT OF PARADISE.' Then Adam said to him, 'O Moses! Allah favored you with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action WHICH ALLAH HAD WRITTEN IN MY FATE forty years before my creation?' So Adam confuted Moses, Adam confuted Moses," the Prophet added, repeating the Statement three times. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number 611)
^The foregoing clearly demonstrate that Adam's offspring inherited the sinful nature from him.

What the foregoing implies is that the sin of Adam impacted both himself and his descendants as well. This means that we would and should expect to find the Qur'an teaching that man is born sinful, evil, corrupt etc., as a result of the first or original sin. Lo and behold, this is precisely what we find the Qur'an teaching!

Adam says Allah made his fate as thus. He spoke about himself when Moses argued with him. We also realized that you argue in your Bible after Jesus that he was sinless, though he was a servant of God, a human being, therefore. This statement of Jesus from the bible supports that argument in the Quran that Jesus was a human prophet Messenger of God to the children of Israel and that everyone is the bearer of his own burden. Otherwise being a servant of Almighty, which means he was a human, he should have been sinful just like Adam. But what is so important even more is that those who sinned and forgiven are just like those who are have not sinned, the children whose slates or books are free of written down sins. Again having a nature that can commit sins does not make you a sinner until you actually commit the sin. Am I wrong here?

#1. Man is unjust and ungrateful.
And He gives you of all that you ask Him; and if you count Allah's favors, you will not be able to number them; most surely man is very unjust, very ungrateful. S. 14:53 Shakir

Cursed be man! how ungrateful is he! S. 80:17 Shakir

Truly man is, to his Lord, ungrateful; And to that (fact) he bears witness (by his deeds); And violent is he in his love of wealth." S. 100:6-8

#2. Man inclines to evil.
"Nor do I absolve my own self (of blame): the (human) soul is certainly prone to evil, unless my Lord do bestow His Mercy: but surely my Lord is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." S. 12:53

By a Soul and Him who balanced it, And BREATHED INTO IT ITS WICKEDNESS and its piety, S. 91:7-8

This is how Muhammad is said to have interpreted this specific text:
Two men of the tribe of Muzaina came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger, what is your opinion that the people do in the world and strive for, is something decreed for them; something preordained for them and will their fate in the Hereafter be determined by the fact that their Prophets brought them teachings which they did not act upon, and thus they became deserving of punishment? Thereupon, he said: Of course, it happens AS IT IS DECREED BY DESTINY AND PREORDAINED FOR THEM, and this view is confirmed by this verse of the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious: "Consider the soul and Him Who made it perfect, THEN BREATHED INTO ITS SIN and its piety" (xci. Cool. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6406)

#3. Sin is universal.
And if Allah had destroyed men for their iniquity, He would not leave on the earth a single creature, but He respites them till an appointed time; so when their doom will come they shall not be able to delay (it) an hour nor can they bring (it) on (before its time). S. 16:61

#4. Man is incapable of becoming pure in and of himself.
"O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure: but Allah doth purify whom He pleases: and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things)." S. 24:21
^Food for thought: If nopuqeater was born without sin i.e. pure; why would he need al-ilah to purify him?

I now see your difficulties. In the above, we read that Allah is sufficient and alone for all affairs. We see that He is willing to forgive and show mercy on those who sinned as long as they approach Him alone in all sincerity. He see that Allah say He purifies whoever He Wills of His creation, mankind since we are human. So even when prophet David who He gave the Psalm, but you accused of indecency and lewd acts, even murder, yet you use his Psalm to protect yourself, while you dont use the Gospel in time of adversities, is it not true or is it impossible in your mind that God purifies David? Is it not possible in your mind that God purifies Adam whose "SIN you call ORIGINAL SIN"? I just want you to open your inner eyes, if they are are not fully and irreversibly blind already. In all of the above, there is no place Allah yielded His Authority and Position to be the FORGIVER to anyone, and or the means of forgiveness being different from obedience to His laid out Laws, path to success and guidance, even from before Jesus, during Jesus son of Mary servant of God and after him, even to the Messenger and Prophet Muhammad (AS) whose person ends all the Messengership and Prophethood to mankind. Allah says that His Way is ever consistent, not changing; Sunnatullahi tahwila (it means from the beginning). SO why will the One Who is Most consistent change even yet the one that you said He changed on is not the last link in the chain of appointed servants to mankind, since Jesus said there is an "ANOTHER COMFORTER" coming (read the qualifications of this another comforter from your Bible. Could he ever possible that he is not a human being, talking, speaking, correcting, obeying God words without adding anything to it and having a record as in a BOOK (QURAN qualifies as a Book)))?

The reason why Muslims like nopuqeater et al, reject the truth about the inherited sin nature despite what their Qur'an and Hadiths clearly say is that it forces them to confront the reality of the cross which they have rejected!

First the Quran does not qualify or mention a message that you can call 'message or reality of the cross'. There is no reason to talk about rejection of part of Quran when it does not even talk or acknowledge what you are saying is there (the reality of the cross). Again having a sinful nature does not mean you are automatically sinful until you commit sin, yet Allah says He will Personally forgive you your sin, making you as if you did not commit the sin, and He says of His capability to purify. Now whats your gripe for remaining in disbelief, installing a patron between you and your Cherisher?

In an above response, I incorrectly said sunnallahi tawilla to mean "Allah's way is not changing". But it is Sunnatallahi lti qud khalat min qabl. wa lam tajida li Sunnatillahi tabdilaaa. (Surah Al Fath {The Opening} Quran Chapter 48 verse 23); [This is] the established way of Allah which has occurred before. And never will you find in the way of Allah any chang

There are many places where Allah says His way is constant; Surah Ahzab verse 62 is another.

@Aletheia: « #5 on: Yesterday at 10:44:39 PM »

Quote from: nopuqeater on Yesterday at 06:06:05 PM
Michael Phelps can be on a yacht at the riviera, yet he is not in the water. And if you travel to the south, you may drive across Mississippi River, on the bridge over it. Have you entered it? Yet you may have seen it, it you look out right or left side of your car. You may even drive on it in a very fast car, or a jalopy. Either way you will not have fallen into it, if you cross it. On the other hand, some people may actually drive on it and part while stil on it and jump into it without any safety device to kill themselves. Either way, the parties drove on it, saw it, but some were over it in safety, while some perished without crossing it successfully.
Muhammad and his companions for one as a group will cross it successfully. The two successive generations wil. True believers in Islamic monotheism shall. All prophets, and Messengers of Allah shall. True shuadah(s) shall. Shall I introduce you to Issa bin Mayam (AS), a Messenger prophet of Allah? And when you challenge any muslim to show you verses of Paradise that Allah has made for muslims, and those who believed in Islamic monotheism before Muhammad's version of the same, if you cant google to find out the verses, we will help you. InshaAllah. But then, what will you do, after all of these?
^
I have already addressed this conclusively elsewhere:
Quote
According to surah 19:70-72, everyone will enter into hell, including Muslims:

The verse did not say that. It says everyone will come near, see it, which is a fact. We need to read preceeding verses before, and after 70-72 along with them to understand the story.

Then We shall pluck forth from every party whichever of them was the most hardened in disdain of the All-mercifu[/b]l; then We shall[b] know very well those most deserving to burn there. Not one of you there is, but he shall go down to i[/b]t; that for thy Lord is a thing decreed, determined. [b]Then We shall deliver those that were godfearing; and the evildoers We shall leave there, hobbling on their knees.

Let us go along with your "going into it" in the worst case scenario. But it did not say there is punishment just because you go into it, except if you an evil doer who will be left there, hobbling on your knees.

A host of translations, hadiths and commentaries show that Muslims understood the passage to mean that all of them will enter hell.
Here is how Muslims render the word wurood in S. 19:71.

As promised, I will uote verses from the same Chapter inclusive of verses 70-72 to show that it is exclusively Muslims, but the whole of man who are deemed to receive Judgement to Paradise or Hell based on Belief and deeds.

1. Muslim Translations of the qur'an

There is not one of you but shall approach it… Pickthall
Not one of you but will pass over it… Y. Ali
And there is not one of you but shall pass over it… Daryabadi
There is not a single one of you, who shall not pass over it… F. Malik
There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell)… Hilali-Khan
And there is not one of you but shall come to it… M.M Ali
And every one of you will come within sight of it… Asad
And there is not one of you but shall come to it… Shakir
And there is not one of you but will come to it… Sher Ali
And there is none of you except he will come to it… SAHEEH INTERNATIONAL
there is not one of you but he will be led up to it… T.B. Irving
Every single one of you must see it… Khalifa
There is none among you, (O those condemned to Hell!), but shall reach there (- the Hell)… Amatul & ‘Abdul Manan ‘Omar
It is the inevitable decree of your Lord that every one of you will be taken to hell. Muhammad Sarwar

Even in the case of Amatul &Abdul Manan 'Omar, who by his name "Abdul Manan" I doubt he is muslim says that those who are condemned to hell will reach hell. But it does not mean that everyone who sees it or every muslim is condemned to hell, afterall, Allah honors Muhammad (AS) as His Messenger and Prophet. And denies Jesus as part God, but simply a messenger and prophet to the nations of Israel. I thereby submit to you that the Quran says that you Aetheia, a non muslim will see hell, will enter it, already condemned to it as a disbeliever in Islamic monotheism and shall punished by it, forever, unless you die in the state of Islamic monotheism.

2. The Quran’s Use of Wurood

In several places the Quran uses different forms of the word wurood in the same context of people entering hell.

He will go before his people on the Day of Judgment, and lead them into the Fire (fa awradahumu alnnara) (as cattle are led to water): But woeful indeed will be the place to which they are led! S. 11:98 Y. Ali

But the sinners will we drive unto (wirdan) Hell, like flocks driven to the watering. S. 19:86 Rodwell

Verily, ye, and what ye worship beside God, shall be fuel for hell: ye shall go down into it (waridoona). S. 21:98 Rodwell

The only possible meaning in these contexts is that evildoers will actually enter into hell itself. Interestingly, 19:86 appears in the same surah just some fifteen verses after 19:71. Since these contexts are virtually identical to 19:71 it therefore follows to reason that the meaning will be the same as well, especially when some fifteen verses later the same word is used in connection with sinners literally entering hell.
Furthermore, the verse right after 19:71 supports the view that people will literally enter hell:

And Allah says that the worshipper of anything other than Allah, and those things they worship will be fuel of Hell. But the Muslims worship Allah. Muhammad (AS) His Messenger worshipped Him in truth> Where does Allah say He will make Muhammad be fuel of Hell?

"And there is not one of you but will come to it. This is an absolute decree of thy Lord. And WE shall save the righteous, and shall leave the wrongdoers therein, on their knees."

The statement that Allah will deliver the righteous and leave the wrongdoer in hell presumes that the righteous are in there as well.

Not so, since if you read the Quran, you will see that seeing it or approach it, or on top of it, etc is not exactly getting punished by it.

Hence, the usage of the term wurood within the Quran in contexts similar to 19:71, as well as the immediate context of the passage itself, conclusively point in the direction of all people, including all Muslims, having to enter into hell for a short while.

That will include you the non muslim, a clearly defined disbeliever.

3. SAHIH AL-BUKHARI
. . .Anas then said, "Muhammad talked to us saying, 'On the Day of Resurrection THE PEOPLE will surge with each other like waves, and then they will come to Adam and say, 'Please intercede for us with your Lord.'…
. . . Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for your will be granted (your request); and i[b]ntercede, for your intercession will be accepted[/b].' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers! My followers!' And then it will be said, 'Go and take out of Hell (Fire) all those who have faith in their hearts, equal to the weight of a barley grain.'

In this dialogue above, does it indicate that Muhammad (AS) was in Hell, when Allah addressed him with the command "GO to Hell and take out, "? Of course not, which is what we have been telling you all along, unless you are saying that even before the dialogue, when the people were moving like waves and they approached Adam in that state, they are already in Hell, yet the address of Allah to Muhammad who has been given permission to intercede is "GO"?

[It goes on and on in the same vein]
. . .Then Allah will say, 'By my Power, and my Majesty, and by My Supremacy, and by My Greatness, I will take out of Hell (Fire) whoever said: 'None has the right to be worshipped except Allah.'" (Volume 9, Book 93, Number 601)
^^Who are the followers of Muhammad, if not people like nopuqeater!

Alhamdulillah that there opens for me a window of Mercy, as in above story if I happen to enter Hell in the first place. I ask Allah not to let me enter it as a sincere worshipper, though I will see it. Whats your condition, aletheia, except punishment in Hell if you dont change?

@Aletheia: I have to commend you for what I see in this thread of you. Since i knew you on Nairaland, you have displayed arrogance, hautiness thining that Jesus is God. Only now that I see a human side of you, willing to have a shared knowledge, experience without the absolute ignorance of say that man is God when the man said he was a servant sent by God. May God allow you grow and make this dialogue beneficial to you. Amin.

For your benefit, therfore I present enough of Surah Maryam; Chapter 19; 54 to 93, as a means of refuttal of your empty charges without merit.

54. And mention in the Book (the Qur'an) Isma'il (Ishmael). Verily! He was true to what he promised, and he was a Messenger, (and) a Prophet.

55. And he used to enjoin on his family and his people As-Salat (the prayers) and the Zakat, and his Lord was pleased with him.

56. And mention in the Book (the Qur'an) Idris (Enoch).Verily! He was a man of truth, (and) a Prophet.

57. And We raised him to a high station.

58. Those were they unto whom Allah bestowed His Grace from among the Prophets, of the offspring of Adam, and of those whom We carried (in the ship) with Nuh (Noah), and of the offspring of Ibrahim (Abraham) and Israel and from among those whom We guided and chose. When the Verses of the Most Beneficent (Allah) were recited unto them, they fell down prostrating and weeping.

59. Then, there has succeeded them a posterity who have given up As-Salat (the prayers) [i.e. made their Salat (prayers) to be lost, either by not offering them or by not offering them perfectly or by not offering them in their proper fixed times, etc.] and have followed lusts. So they will be thrown in Hell.

60. Except those who repent and believe (in the Oneness of Allah and His Messenger Muhammad ), and work righteousness. Such will enter Paradise and they will not be wronged in aught.

Surah Maryam continues;

61. (They will enter) 'Adn (Eden) Paradise (everlasting Gardens), which the Most Beneficent (Allah) has promised to His slaves in the unseen: Verily! His Promise must come to pass.

62. They shall not hear therein (in Paradise) any Laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk), but only Salam (salutations of peace). And they will have therein their sustenance, morning and afternoon. [See (V.40:55)].

63. Such is the Paradise which We shall give as an inheritance to those of Our slaves who have been Al-Muttaqun (pious and righteous persons - See V.2:2).

64. And we (angels) descend not except by the Command of your Lord (O Muhammad ). To Him belongs what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between those two, and your Lord is never forgetful,

65. Lord of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, so worship Him (Alone) and be constant and patient in His worship. Do you know of any who is similar to Him? (of course none is similar or coequal or comparable to Him, and He has none as partner with Him). [There is nothing like unto Him and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer].

66. And man (the disbeliever) says: "When I am dead, shall I then be raised up alive?"

67. Does not man remember that We created him before, while he was nothing?

Sural Maryam continues;

68. So by your Lord, surely, We shall gather them together, and (also) the Shayatin (devils) (with them), then We shall bring them round Hell on their knees.

69. Then indeed We shall drag out from every sect all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against the Most Beneficent (Allah).

70. Then, verily, We know best those who are most worthy of being burnt therein.

71. There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord; a Decree which must be accomplished.

72. Then We shall save those who use to fear Allah and were dutiful to Him. And We shall leave the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers, etc.) therein (humbled) to their knees (in Hell).

73. And when Our Clear Verses are recited to them, those who disbelieve (the rich and strong among the pagans of Quraish who live a life of luxury) say to those who believe (the weak, poor companions of Prophet Muhammad who have a hard life): "Which of the two groups (i.e. believers and disbelievers) is best in (point of) position and as regards station (place of council for consultation)."

74. And how many a generation (past nations) have We destroyed before them, who were better in wealth, goods and outward appearance?

Surah Maryam continues

75. Say (O Muhammad ) whoever is in error, the Most Beneficent (Allah) will extend (the rope) to him, until, when they see that which they were promised, either the torment or the Hour, they will come to know who is worst in position, and who is weaker in forces. [This is the answer for the Verse No.19:73]

76. And Allah increases in guidance those who walk aright [true believers in the Oneness of Allah who fear Allah much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden), and love Allah much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)]. And the righteous good deeds that last, are better with your Lord, for reward and better for resort.

77. Have you seen him who disbelieved in Our Ayat (this Qur'an and Muhammad ) and (yet) says: "I shall certainly be given wealth and children [if I will be alive (again)],"

78. Has he known the unseen or has he taken a covenant from the Most Beneficent (Allah)?

79. Nay! We shall record what he says, and We shall increase his torment (in the Hell);

80. And We shall inherit from him (at his death) all that he talks of (i.e. wealth and children which We have bestowed upon him in this world), and he shall come to Us alone.

81. And they have taken (for worship) aliha (gods) besides Allah, that they might give them honour, power and glory (and also protect them from Allah's Punishment etc.).

82. Nay, but they (the so-called gods) will deny their worship of them, and become opponents to them (on the Day of Resurrection).

Surah Maryam continues


83. See you not that We have sent the Shayatin (devils) against the disbelievers to push them to do evil.

84. So make no haste against them; We only count out to them a (limited) number (of the days of the life of this world and delay their term so that they may increase in evil and sins).

85. The Day We shall gather the Muttaqun (pious - see V.2:2) unto the Most Beneficent (Allah), like a delegate (presented before a king for honour).

86. And We shall drive the Mujrimun (polytheists, sinners, criminals, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, etc.) to Hell, in a thirsty state (like a thirsty herd driven down to water),

87. None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission (or promise) from the Most Beneficent (Allah).

88. And they say: "The Most Beneficent (Allah) has begotten a son (or offspring or children) [as the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say that He has begotten a son ['Iesa (Christ)], and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (angels, etc.)]."

89. Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.

90. Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins,

91. That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent (Allah).

92. But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent (Allah) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children).

93. There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Beneficent (Allah) as a slave

From the Bible Jesus said he is a servantr sent by God.


Allah says in the Quran everyone is His Slave.



Where is the difference, Aletheia, Toba, Yefet, Precap2, etc?


Why are you worshipping the worshipper instead of the Worshipped?

nopuqeater:

There is only one Scripture that says all have sinned. It is the Bible that says it. f you know anyone else that you accept as "SCRIPTURE", let us know, now.

^You are not fully conversant with your qur'an as your remarks below reveal yet you presume to pontificate on the bible supposing it to be in the mold of your qur'an.
The bible is the scriptures (plural): 66 different books from Genesis to Revelation, all having as their theme God's redemptive plan through the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth. The qur'an doesn't qualify as scripture as far as I am concerned.

nopuqeater:

A person does not to have been an adulterer before he seek Mercy of Allah against adultery. Seeking mercy against sins leads you to receive the Mercy of Allah abundantly. ence it is stated that some fasts have the reward which is consequential to forgiveness and mercy against a sin that you have not committed in the future. How are you forgiven and given mercy for the evil you have not done? Simple; Allah shall prevent you from committing it. Allah says if believers feel too good not to seek His Guidance, Mercy, Forgiveness, etc, He is capable of replacing us, the whole of human race and or the believers because of our arrogance with another who will not be arrogant but seek always Mercy, Forgiveness and not proud to seek Guidance. You know Quran did not copy the Bible. Allah Himself already answered you:The tongue of this Quran is new and not like any other revelation before. So when we look at Surah Taha, we see how Allah invites people to read about Moses "Has the story of Moses came to you" was the start of it. Which Scripture grabs your attention like that? Thats is pure journalism at its highest.

^Another spin on the medieval Roman Catholic invention of indulgences. Forgiveness for sins that yet to be committed! No wonder the RCC & Islam are birds of a feather. You are being disingenuous here, clearly ignoring and dismissing the teaching of your own qur'an:

If Allah were to take mankind to task for their wrong-doing, he would not leave hereon a living creature, but He reprieveth them to an appointed term, and when their term cometh they cannot put (it) off an hour nor (yet) advance (it). Pickthall

---

If God were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: When their Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour). Yusuf Ali

---

And if Allah had destroyed men for their iniquity, He would not leave on the earth a single creature, but He respites them till an appointed time; so when their doom will come they shall not be able to delay (it) an hour nor can they bring (it) on (before its time). Shakir

Three different translations- yet unequivocally stating that all men (Muslim and non-Muslim alike) are guilty of wrong-doing. Or does the verse in anyway distinguish between these two groups?

The Qur'an emphatically and plainly teaches that a person can and does suffer because of someone else’s sins,

^To which you responded with this:

nopuqeater:

No. Tell me where you see it. Just therefore imagine the opposite from the offspring of a good man. No? Yet you called innocent baby of Abraham a wild backside!

Oh dear, such crass ignorance of your own qur'an. I, an infidel should educate you on what the qur'an says! Anyway your prophet says you should learn from the people of the Book. Goes to show that your attacks against Jesus and His followers is based on ignorance and spiritual pride since you plainly don't know or ignore what your qur'an actually says.

2.36. Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."
2.37. Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
2.38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Yusuf Ali)
^This passage references the expulsion of Adam from the garden. It expressly shows that Adam’s sin had a negative impact on all future generations of mankind since in Arabic the YOU in both 2:36 and 38 is plural (referring to more than two), as opposed to the dual. We know that the plural in the case of Q. 2:38 cannot be referring to Satan since he stands condemned to hell and will not follow the guidance which will come from your god. It is therefore apparent that the plural is addressed to all of mankind, that humanity suffered expulsion due to their federal head, Adam, a point reiterated elsewhere in your Hadiths:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. 'O Adam! You are our father WHO DISAPPOINTED US AND TURNED US OUT OF PARADISE.' Then Adam said to him, 'O Moses! Allah favored you with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action WHICH ALLAH HAD WRITTEN IN MY FATE forty years before my creation?' So Adam confuted Moses, Adam confuted Moses," the Prophet added, repeating the Statement three times. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number 611)

So both your qur'an and hadith show Adam's descendants suffering the consequences of Adam's sin. QED! I could show you the references in the hadiths to sins committed by others being attributed to Cain if you wish.

nopuqeater:

Havin a tendency to do evil, until you do it, you are sinless.

^Let me state it in personal terms, so that you can apprehend it.
Nopuqeater has a tendency to evil. Can nopuqeater claim that he has never committed evil and thus is sinless? How much sin does nopuqeater need not to commit in order to be sinless? The reason you struggle with this is that Islam has a false concept of God, man and sin. The Arabic word for salvation occurs only once in the qur'an and so does the word holy, which is why you have never attempted to answer my question: How do you reconcile Perfect Justice and Perfect Love? Let me state it in another way that you may understand given that your handle on this forum betrays an obsession with not eating pork.
When is a sausage not halaal?
   When it is made of pork!
   But if only a small part of it is pork?
   Or if only the skin is from a pig?

The obvious answer is: none of these sausages are halaal. All are haraam. The same can be applied to man. When is a man not acceptable to Perfectly Holy and Just God?
   When he is a mass murderer?
   When he is an occasional adulterer?
   When he occasionally has an evil thought?

At any time - unless the sin, however big or small, is atoned for! And that happens by justification, when the judgment of God is actually executed to punish my sin; when God Himself in Jesus takes our place of punishment to save us from it.

nopuqeater:

Show us the place.

^Again you ask me an infidel to show you in your qur'an something you ought to know, because I of what I posted. Are you sure you really understand your qur'an not just reciting it?

Moreover, there are other Qur'anic verses which state that individuals do shoulder the burdens of others.

Here are the verses:
16:25. Let them bear, on the Day of Judgment, their own burdens in full, and also (something) of the burdens of those without knowledge, whom they misled. Alas, how grievous the burdens they will bear!
29:13. They will bear their own burdens, and (other) burdens along with their own, and on the Day of Judgments they will be called to account for their falsehoods.

Do you now see them!

nopuqeater:

If Jesus was truly the bearer of burdens of another, then no Christians will go to hell. Judas Iscariot, according to you would not have committed suicide. I am sure you people call him "sinner". And he is destined to hell. No? Yet he fulfilled what Jesus predicted. No? You see that you have no real argument.

^You are strait-jacketed by your Islamic world-view. Do you think following Jesus is like reciting the shahada? Or merely professing to be a "Christian"? Or going to church? Or having a name like Peter, John etc, as so many of your ilk suppose? Judas was not a true believer in Jesus of Nazareth - that he was numbered among the 12 didn't make him so. Just as your prophet numbering himself with Moses and other true prophets of YHWH didn't make him one! A true Christian is in a living relationship with the Heavenly Father; his sins forgiven and atoned for by Jesus of Nazareth, who shed His Blood on the cross and rose again from death in triumph. A true Christian is a new creation in the image of the Heavenly Man: Jesus of Nazareth. There is no condemnation of him at all. Many profess Christianity, not all of them are true disciples!

nopuqeater:

First the Quran does not qualify or mention a message that you can call 'message or reality of the cross'. There is no reason to talk about rejection of part of Quran when it does not even talk or acknowledge what you are saying is there (the reality of the cross). Again having a sinful nature does not mean you are automatically sinful until you commit sin, yet Allah says He will Personally forgive you your sin, making you as if you did not commit the sin, and He says of His capability to purify. Now whats your gripe for remaining in disbelief, installing a patron between you and your Cherisher?

^If your god will personally forgive your sin; why then does he assure you that not one of you his followers will but taste the fires of Hell. Of course he goes on to say that he may or may not rescue you from it. So in essence you are gambling your eternal destiny on the capricious whim of al-ilah.
It is not too late to receive salvation and be saved:
Only believe on Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins:
Acts Chapter 10:36-43.
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judæa, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

nopuqeater:

@Aletheia: « #5 on: Yesterday at 10:44:39 PM »The verse did not say that. It says everyone will come near, see it, which is a fact. We need to read preceeding verses before, and after 70-72 along with them to understand the story.

Let us go along with your "going into it" in the worst case scenario. But it did not say there is punishment just because you go into it, except if you an evil doer who will be left there, hobbling on your knees.

^So you dismiss the account of this authentic hadith (Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 12, Number 770) then as untrue:

He will order the angels to take out of Hell those who worshipped none but Him alone. The angels will take them out by recognizing them from the traces of prostrations, for Allah has forbidden the (Hell) fire to eat away those traces. So they will come out of the Fire, it will eat away from the whole of the human body except the marks of the prostrations.

This sounds to me like a description of Muslims being taken out of hell! Now why would they need to be taken out of they were not already there in the first place! And they will stay in the fire at least long enough for the whole body be eaten away. The only problem is that anyone entering hell remains there forever with no get-out-of-jail card.

Matthew 25:41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

nopuqeater:

Alhamdulillah that there opens for me a window of Mercy, as in above story if I happen to enter Hell in the first place. I ask Allah not to let me enter it as a sincere worshipper, though I will see it.  Whats your condition, aletheia, except punishment in Hell if you dont change?

^And thus in your words is revealed the quandary you face, the terror that lurks in your heart. Your god has threatened you with hell, if you worship aught but him; while at the same time providing no guarantees that should you find yourself there (a fate that you are by no means certain you will avoid, given that you don't know if your good deeds are enough), you will come out.
Well here is the good news! Jesus Christ can save you from the fire of hell. Only believe that He is Lord and His Blood cleanses you from your sin.
Once there was a man like you called Saul but he had an encounter with the risen, living Jesus and he became Paul of Tarsus. My prayer for you is that you encounter Jesus in like manner and be transformed in like manner. May God the Father of our Lord Jesus bless you.

This thread and the other "why have you forsaken me?" show so much truth about our Muslim brothers. Its hatred for the concept of Christ and not knowledge or sincerity that drives them. Yet the hatred is not backed by an understanding of the issues involved. Its amazing how someone can show so much hatred for something only for it to be determined (nay, proved) that he/they know pratically nothing of what they "hate" or even of why they should hate it.

Worse still, is that they don't even understand their own belief system as this thread proves. A mouse-trap would find it more difficult to catch a prey in a food store than Aletheia found it to catch them in error here.

Brings a whole new meaning to the term "shooting fish in a barrel". In fact, this isn't as easy as that - rather, its as easy as looking at a barrel!

Ultimately, it is in what they hate that they will find truth. This thread proves that!

aletheia:

Do you blame me for action WHICH ALLAH HAD WRITTEN IN MY FATE forty years before my creation?

This shows that even Adam himself believed that his own sin was also inherited.
I must also add that for a Christian, sin is not only an act but also a thought. You must be pure both in thoughts and in action. That means no one can be free. It's stated in Ezekiel that the heart of man is deceitful and desperately wicked.

But I must state categorically that reading this thread is the biggest burden I have signed up for. You guy do too much long writing. Is it that there is no road to summary? I'm enjoying the writing anyhow

@Aletheia: « #18 on: Today at 07:17:45 AM »

Quote from: nopuqeater on Today at 04:49:21 AM
@Aletheia: « #5 on: Yesterday at 10:44:39 PM »The verse did not say that. It says everyone will come near, see it, which is a fact. We need to read preceeding verses before, and after 70-72 along with them to understand the story.

Let us go along with your "going into it" in the worst case scenario. But it did not say there is punishment just because you go into it, except if you an evil doer who will be left there, hobbling on your knees.
^So you dismiss the account of this authentic hadith (Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 12, Number 770) then as untrue:

Is Bukhari Allah? No. Is Bukhari the Messenger and Prophet of Islam? No. Is Bukhari a companion? No. Is Bukhari from the next generation? No/ Is Bukhari from the next to next generation? No. Hadith comes to life because it is to explain the verse of Quran. Thats the fact. I want you to transport yourself to some 1400 plus years ago, when the Messenger was delivering the Message of Allah.

Are you there yet? Now let us just focus on the prohibition of consumption of alcohol for a clear example of Quranic verse. Initially it was a thing that the Arabs before Islam indulged in. When they entered Islam, it was not prohibited throughout the 13 years of Makkan revelation. It was not the first commandment on the subject of alcohol in Madina. The final prohibition did not come until they were whined from it, in what we can say is similar to what the social workers call a 12 step program, here today in America. It was gradual.

Lets go back to Bukhari's hadith collection. Did Bukhari collect every hadith? No. Are all his hadith from when he collected it were deemed authentic? No. No all were deemed authentic. Why are some or was one deemed not authentic? Bukhari is only a human being, not God, not the Prophet and if any of his materials is contrary to Quran, shall we not discard it? Authentic Hadith must not be opposing Quran, because Quran is from God Who is the Holder of All Knowledge and hadith is to explain Quran. Shall explanation be different from the material it is explaining? No. So when a material labeled as Hadith is going a different direction to Quran, is is not Hadith. And that is the truth. May Allah rewards Seyidina Bukhari of all the goods he did. Amin. May Allah open your heart Aletheia. Amin.

Quote
He will order the angels to take out of Hell those who worshipped none but Him alone.

Of among those who went to hell. No that there is no single Muslim who is not in Paradise already or that all muslims are in hell first. Did you see the many verses of Surah Kahf, Maryam, Fajr that I have quoted, already? Research them out, man.

The angels will take them out by recognizing them from the traces of prostrations, for Allah has forbidden the (Hell) fire to eat away those traces. So they will come out of the Fire, it will eat away from the whole of the human body except the marks of the prostrations.

From this you will have to agree that the non muslims do not have a chance.

This sounds to me like a description of Muslims being taken out of hell! Now why would they need to be taken out of they were not already there in the first place!

I remember a muslim telling you that there will be some muslims who will enter hell for whatever reason that they needed to be purified before entering Paradise. There is no evidence in the Quran that all muslims will enter hell and be punished there first before being taking out and be brought into paradise. If you have that evidence, barring your conjectures, present it.

And they will stay in the fire at least long enough for the whole body be eaten away. The only problem is that anyone entering hell remains there forever with no get-out-of-jail card.

Even in Nigeria, your joke above will bum out. While Iman is in degrees, Allah's messenger (as) spoke about the speeds which people will cross the bridge is directly corresponding to the strength of belief:

                                       www.ilmfruits.com/the-fruits-of-eman-10 - Cached - Similar

, And they will race over the bridge faster then the speed of light, then faster then a galloping horse, then a sprinter, a walker, and a crawler5 until the person with the lowest level of eman crosses (he’s at the fasiq point), his light will be so little that his big toe will flicker on. He’ll take one step, and it’ll flicker off. He’ll freeze, not knowing if it will turn on again.6,

Matthew 25:41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Who is the speaker here? In Islam, The Quran is all that Speaks. Hadith is statements of Muhammad (AS) to explain Quran.

Quote from: nopuqeater on Today at 04:49:21 AM
Alhamdulillah that there opens for me a window of Mercy, as in above story if I happen to enter Hell in the first place. I ask Allah not to let me enter it as a sincere worshipper, though I will see it.  Whats your condition, aletheia, except punishment in Hell if you dont change?
^And thus in your words is revealed the quandary you face, the terror that lurks in your heart. Your god has threatened you with hell, if you worship aught but him; while at the same time providing no guarantees that should you find yourself there (a fate that you are by no means certain you will avoid, given that you don't know if your good deeds are enough), you will come out.

It is true that I am informed of certain disaster of Hell as a result of worshipping god or gods alone or with God. I voluntarily accept to worship God and the threat reinforced me in firm belief. However, you lied when you said I am not guaranteed a goodly reward of Paradise. I am. Read Surah Kahf, Maryam, Fajr, for starters so that you can see how Allah has honored Muhammad and us in Islam, if we in Islam follow Muhammad (AS), foot to foot, step by step as much as is possible without deviating into multigod worhip like say Trinity.

Well here is the good news! Jesus Christ can save you from the fire of hell. Only believe that He is Lord and His Blood cleanses you from your sin.

I do not need a man like me to lord over me. I need God Almighty The Creator to Lord and God over me.

Once there was a man like you called Saul but he had an encounter with the risen, living Jesus and he became Paul of Tarsus. My prayer for you is that you encounter Jesus in like manner and be transformed in like manner. May God the Father of our Lord Jesus bless you.

Allahu Akbar Kabira. Lol. I am not a Jew. Am a Yoruba. A muslim. The only way am getting close to a Jew is if I find their pretty women with african medium shape body and some a little bit and slightly exaggerated meat that we real men love so much. Enh ehn. I will take here just to get some Islam into her. getting babies for islam from her. She will be done and she will not be a yahuud any longer but a Muslima. Saul, Paul was a Jew. I am not that. Dont wish me evil man. Common now.

@Precap2: « #20 on: Today at 10:06:04 PM »

Quote from: aletheia on Today at 07:17:45 AM
Do you blame me for action WHICH ALLAH HAD WRITTEN IN MY FATE forty years before my creation?

This shows that even Adam himself believed that his own sin was also inherited.

From Whom? Precap2! You have some reseach to do. Answer the Question by it.

I must also add that for a Christian, sin is not only an act but also a thought. You must be pure both in thoughts and in action. That means no one can be free. It's stated in Ezekiel that the heart of man is deceitful and desperately wicked.

But I must state categorically that reading this thread is the biggest burden I have signed up for. You guy do too much long writing. Is it that there is no road to summary? I'm enjoying the writing anyhow

Alhamdulillah. Am a muslim. If I have a bad or evil thought, it is not a sin on me, until I effectuate it. If I have a good thought and I am unable to fulfill it, it will be recorded for me as a good deed performed. This shows that am on easier road to success than you with the burden that your mere thought of evil or bad is a sin for you.

Let us consider the implications of what you have written.

nopuqeater:

Is Bukhari Allah? No. Is Bukhari the Messenger and Prophet of Islam? No. Is Bukhari a companion? No. Is Bukhari from the next generation? No/ Is Bukhari from the next to next generation? No. Hadith comes to life because it is to explain the verse of Quran. Thats the fact.

^#1. Hadiths explain the Qur'an.

nopuqeater:

Lets go back to Bukhari's hadith collection. Did Bukhari collect every hadith? No. Are all his hadith from when he collected it were deemed authentic? No. No all were deemed authentic. Why are some or was one deemed not authentic? Bukhari is only a human being, not God, not the Prophet and if any of his materials is contrary to Quran, shall we not discard it? Authentic Hadith must not be opposing Quran, because Quran is from God Who is the Holder of All Knowledge and hadith is to explain Quran. Shall explanation be different from the material it is explaining? No. So when a material labeled as Hadith is going a different direction to Quran, is is not Hadith. And that is the truth.

^#2. Authentic hadiths should not oppose the Qur'an.

nopuqeater:

Who is the speaker here? In Islam, The Quran is all that Speaks. Hadith is statements of Muhammad (AS) to explain Quran.

^#3. Hadiths are statements of Muhammad that explain the Qur'an.

Implication #1. If we find any statement in the Hadiths whether or not ascribed to Muhammad that oppose the Qur'an, then they are to be rejected.
I have taken the time to lay out your statements for it reveals the Catch-22 situation in which you now find yourself. According to you no Muslim will enter Hell, they will only cross over on a bridge (sirat).

Question #1: Does the Qur'an actually give this assurance? Answer: No
Question #2: Where then does this tale of marvelous escape come from? Answer: the Hadiths
Question #3: What does the Qur'an actually say? Answer: Everyone, Muslim and non-Muslim will enter the Fire.
But the Catch-22 situation for you is that in seeking to explain that it is not so, you must go outside of the Qur'an to the Hadiths to find the sirat that you will use to get out of Hell.
The quandary for you is that when other Hadiths are pointed out to you that affirm what the Qur'an says, you reject them by the criteria of not contradicting the Qur'an.
So clearly the Hadith contradicts the language of the Qur'an which says all (Muslim and non-Muslim alike) will enter the Fire, when it says they will cross it on a bridge. It must therefore be rejected!

1. What the Qur'an actually says:
According to surah 19:70-72, everyone will enter into hell, including Muslims.
Then We shall pluck forth from every party whichever of them was the most hardened in disdain of the All-merciful; then We shall know very well those most deserving to burn there. Not one of you there is, but he shall go down to it (wariduha); that for thy Lord is a thing decreed, determined. Then We shall deliver those that were godfearing; and the evildoers We shall leave there, hobbling on their knees. A.J. Arberry

In several places the Quran uses different forms of the word wurood in the same context of people entering hell.
He will go before his people on the Day of Judgment, and lead them into the Fire (fa awradahumu alnnara) (as cattle are led to water): But woeful indeed will be the place to which they are led! S. 11:98 Y. Ali

But the sinners will we drive unto (wirdan) Hell, like flocks driven to the watering. S. 19:86 Rodwell

Verily, ye, and what ye worship beside God, shall be fuel for hell: ye shall go down into it (waridoona). S. 21:98 Rodwell

Furthermore, the verse right after 19:71 supports the view that people will literally enter hell:
"And there is not one of you but will come to it. This is an absolute decree of thy Lord. And WE shall save the righteous, and shall leave the wrongdoers therein, on their knees."

The statement that the god will deliver the righteous and leave the wrongdoer in hell presumes that the righteous are in there as well. Hence, the usage of the term wurood within the Quran in contexts similar to 19:71, as well as the immediate context of the passage itself, conclusively point in the direction of all people, including all Muslims, having to enter into hell for a short while.

2. The commentary of Ibn Kathir (Tafsir Ibn Kathir) shows how the early Muslims understood Q19:70-72.
Narrated by Ibn Jarir, narrated by Atta who stated that Abu Rashid Al-Harury, who is called Nafi Ibn Al-Azraq, said, “They (the believers) will not hear hell’s roar.” So Ibn Abbas responded, “Woe to you! Are you insane? What of Allah’s verse, ‘He will go before his people on the Day of Judgment, and lead them (Awrada-hum) into the fire’ (Q. 11:98), and also the verse, ‘And We shall drive the sinners to hell being lead (Wirdan)?’ (Q. 19:86). And also the verse, ‘Not one of you but will pass (Waridu-ha) through it?’ (Q. 19:71). By Allah, the supplication of those who lived previously used to be, ‘O Allah TAKE ME OUT OF HELL FIRE peacefully and allow me to enter paradise victorious.’”

Narrated by Ibn Jarir, narrated by Muhammad Ibn Ubaid Al-Mihrabu, narrated by Asbat, narrated by Abdel Malik, narrated by Ubaid Allah narrated by Mujahid who said, “I was in the company of Ibn Abbas when a man called Abu Rashid, who is also known as Nafi Al-Azraq, came and asked Ibn Abbas, ‘Have you seen the saying of Allah, “Not one of you but will pass through (Waridu-ha) it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished?”’ (Q. 19:71). Ibn Abbas replied, ‘As for you and I, O Abu Rashid, WE SHALL ENTER IT (hell), but let us see WHETHER we shall exit from it or not.’” …

Also narrated by Al-Awfi, narrated by Ibn Abbas who said, “‘Not one of you but will pass through (Waridu-ha) it’ (Q. 19:71), means that the righteous and the sinner (shall enter hell). For don’t you hear what Allah said to Pharaoh, ‘He will go before his people on the Day of Judgment, and lead them (Awrada-hum) into the fire’ (Q. 11:98), and also the verse, ‘And We shall drive the sinners to hell being lead (Wirdan)?’ (19:86). So he called, ‘passing through’ (Wird), AN ENTRY INTO HELL AND NOT AN EXIT OUT OF IT.” (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Q. 19:71)

3. The History of Tabari also confirms it:
According to Ibn Humayd – Salamah – Muhammad b. Ishaq – Muhammad b. Ja‘far b. al-Zubayr – ‘Urwah b. al-Zubayr, who said: The Messenger of God sent his expedition to Mu’tah in Jumada I of the year 8. He put Zayd b. Harithah in command of the men and said, "If Zayd b. Harithah is killed, Ja‘far b. Abi Talib shall be in command of the men; if Ja‘far is killed, ‘Abdallah b. Rawahah shall be in command… When ‘Abdallah b. Rawahah said goodbye with the other commanders of the Messenger of God who were doing so, HE WEPT. They said to him, "What is making you weep, Ibn Rawahah?" He said, "By God, I have no love of this world or excessive love for you, but I heard the Messenger of God recite a verse from the Book of God that mentioned the Fire [of Hell] - ‘Not one of you there is, but he shall go down to it; that for thy Lord is a thing decreed, determined’ - AND I DO NOT KNOW HOW I CAN COME OUT AFTER GOING DOWN."

^In conclusion then, let me summarize:
#1. The Qur'an clearly states that both Muslims and non-Muslims will enter into the Fire of Hell.
#2. This was how those who initially heard 19.70-72 understood it.
#3. The Qur'an makes no mention of a bridge by which Muslims will walk across the Fire.
#4. Only some Hadiths mention this bridge.
#5. Since these Hadiths contradict the Qur'an (your stated criteria above), they stand rejected.

In fact the truth is that no Muslim knows what will become of him on the Day. The Hadiths offer no help, since they often contradict themselves on this essential matter of their eternal destination. While the Qur'an is unequivocal about their entering the Fire, they can only hope that somehow, they will be pulled out.

The good news is that Muslims can be sure of escaping the Judgment by rejecting their false prophet and putting their trust in the Only One who can save them: Jesus of Nazareth-the Messiah.

nopuqeater:

Alhamdulillah. Am a muslim. If I have a bad or evil thought, it is not a sin on me, until I effectuate it. If I have a good thought and I am unable to fulfill it, it will be recorded for me as a good deed performed. This shows that am on easier road to success than you with the burden that your mere thought of evil or bad is a sin for you.

^So the sausage is halaal after all.

When is a sausage not halaal?
When it is made of pork!
But if only a small part of it is pork?
Or if only the skin is from a pig?

Here is what Jesus has to say on thoughts of adultery:
Matthew 5:28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matthew 9:4. And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
^If you think an evil or sinful thought, that makes you a sinner even if you didn't actually carry it out!
Proverbs 23:7. For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he

But before God the Holy and Righteous Judge your are haraam, and more so because you say you are without sin.
I John 1:8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

First and foremost I will commend Nonpugeter for his resolute determination in refuting lies and trachery and again Aliar Tears proved me right in what I wrote about as always engeging in Misquoting and Half-quoting read his initial post and compare to what I wrote earlier

ALIAR-TEARS, IT IS A PITY THAT YOUR LIES are only second the devil's deceit as i have explained the Hadith, refers to bad Muslims, as Nonpugeter has written and I concur and express in my writings you are a great Liar one who engages in Misquoting people I cannot blame u as Paul has sanctioned you Lies in his words If through my falsehood God's truthfulness abounds to His glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner." (Romans 3:7),so go on lieing as it is a christain virturewe to engage in such and as for accepting your religion count me out as the authors of the Bible crafted failed prophecies which I shall quote

stop quoting other people post half way as it only shows your insincerity and bid to make people say what you want them to, certain times you are not worth answering as only lies and deliberate miscontrueinsm bears the hall marks of your missionerism.

The good news is that Muslims can be sure of escaping the Judgment by rejecting their false prophet and putting their trust in the Only One who can save them: Jesus of Nazareth-the Messiah.

We Muslim honor Jesus (A.S) and deeply respect him, But the Jesus of the Bible has Been made Into a mere Joke in the hands of the ananimous bible wrieters. To summarize the confusion Bible brings on the matter of Jesus :

As for those that claim that Jesus came to die for their sins( may be they love sinning) here are some food for thought
1. Jesus prayed to God to make this cup pass over him, in other words God save me
2. God heard his prayer, in other word God accepted his prayer because God hears all the time, the "heard" is metaphorical for acceptance.
3. Jesus before giving up the ghost shouted My God my God why have thou Forsaken me, this only goes to show that he was an unwilling to die for your sins.
4. If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself why hast I forsaken me?
5. i HAVE BEEN SENT TO THE LOST SHEEP OF ISREAL
6. I CANNOT BY MYSELF DO NOTHING, meaning he depends on God just like we do
Now how do you want any sane muslim to go look for a saviour when ALLAH's mercy is sufficient? thanks but no thanks as we are contented with ALLAH's mercy,the CREATOR, The FORGIVER, THE LORD OF MANKIND and evidently THE ONE WHO gives guideance JESUS Prayed to ALLAH while on earth not to his self.

@Nopuqeater, more grease to your elbow, may Allah Almighty continue guiding us to the right path for us to have knowledge and power and keep preaching the Allah's word to this our fellow Xtians may be oneday they will accept the truth and become part of us.
     .

Why I am a Muslim:

1. ALLAH's mercy is boundless as ALLAH forgave Adam the sins he commited immediately(Christianity claims God did not forgive the actions of Adam for millenniums, that only shows how peaceful and forgiving their religion is, it is to be noted that some The Christians who *assume* Jesus bore all of their sins claim that they are free to sin [indiscriminately].
2. In Islam, you are solely responsible for your actions not Adam.
3.In Islam the crucifixion is a ruse as even the bible we read of JESUS THAT ASKED FOR SWORDS, position his disciple for battle and etc, in fact the Qur'an repudiates the claim by saying So Allah protected him from the evil (consequences) of what they planned" (Holy Koran 40:45), that is, ALLAH protected Jesus from the treacheries of his adversary. Even Jesus begs ALLAH to save him Jesus, in front of the crowd, asked Allah to Save him

"And he [Jesus] said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what thou wilt." ("Mark 14:36)

4.Jesus is not the savior of mankind, but was sent to guide Isreal, Jesus asked our Creator to be his Savior from death, symbolized as "this cup" in Mark 14, undisputed revealing that Jesus can not be our Savior if he himself prayed for a Savior.

even Jesus disciples knew Jesus does not protect or save, when mere men (soldiers) arrested Jesus, the disciples decided to abandon Jesus and not seek protection in Jesus;

" Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled." (Matthew 26:56)
5.Jesus is a man, worthy of respect and honor, but never to be worshiped or asked for anything, as he cannot do anything for himself," Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter
the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father
who is in heaven . " Matthew 7:21

"And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." [Mr 10:18]

If Jesus was our Savior, then at the very least, Jesus would know when the day of resurrection was, yet Jesus plainly denies this;

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in
heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." [Mr 13:32]

While the Creator of Jesus, the God of Abraham in the Old Testament and the Quran offers us absolute Salvation:
OLD TESTAMENT

"For I am the Lord, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your SAVIOR, It is I, the Lord; there is NO SAVIOR BUT ME, " (Old Testament Isaiah 43:3 &11)

"You shall know that I, the Lord am your SAVIOR, your REDEEMER, the mighty one of Jacob." (Old Testament Isaiah 60:16)

FINAL TESTAMENT (HOLY QURAN)

"But Allah will deliver the righteous to their place of salvation: no evil shall touch them, nor shall they grieve." (Holy Quran 39:61)

"For those who believe and do righteous deeds, will be Gardens; beneath which rivers flow: That is the great Salvation" (Holy Quran 85:11)

"As for those who repent, reform, and proclaim, I redeem them. I am the Redeemer, Most Merciful." (Holy Quran 2:160.15)

Now the old testament and the Qur'an says only ALLAh - the CREATOR can save not a mortals, not crosses, not moons, not Idols , nothing except ALLAH can save you from all forms of calamity, now since Jesus came to fulfill the law( the old testament) then that is the only reason he prayed to ALLAH to save(let this cup pass over me), in continuation of the practice of the LAW.

Digest this now as more shall come

Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Now does it include babies? if yes, i wonder what kind of sins christian babies commit as common sense will tell us Babies do not have a sense of right from wrong, and what possible wrong can they do, Babies are born innocent
if no then that verse is wrong as we babies is part of everyone, further more we all know that a lot of babies die with a year or two and hence they die sinless, so where does paul get all have sinned and fallen short of glory unless he do not have everyone at mind.

Furthermore in Islam we are taught that even babies of unbelievers go to heaven if they die before attaining the age of reasonable culpability. again it repudiates the original sin, if not God would have punish the baby for being an unbeliever. the extent of ALLAH MERCY IS INDEED BOUNDLESS AND FREE FROM unreasonable limitation that some original-sinners want us to believe.

@Aletheia: « #24 on: Today at 02:26:31 AM »

Quote from: nopuqeater on Yesterday at 10:26:30 PM
Alhamdulillah. Am a muslim. If I have a bad or evil thought, it is not a sin on me, until I effectuate it. If I have a good thought and I am unable to fulfill it, it will be recorded for me as a good deed performed. This shows that am on easier road to success than you with the burden that your mere thought of evil or bad is a sin for you.
^So the sausage is halaal after all. Smiley

Sausage a process of turning ordinary meat (all different kind of meat to something exotic), to what many people call sausage. let me make it easier for you. Corned beef started from just meat of cow. It goes through food preparation processes, including some salted water, etc cooking period. This is studied in food science and technology education.

When is a sausage not halaal?

There are Jewish sausages that are labeled kosher, and other rabbinic labels. Then there are muslim food industries that process sausages from halal/Dhabiha slaughter animals, including Chicken, Turkey, cow (beef). I know that you dont know these things because they are not done in Nigeria. They are done in Europe and North America. Some of the foremost food scientists in america are orthodox muslims. The work with US department of agriculture, in matters of policies and agenda. So not all sausages are haram.

When it is made of pork!
But if only a small part of it is pork?
Or if only the skin is from a pig?

None of the above. But there are halal sausages, brand names listed in Book of Halal and haram (Grocery Book). I personally dont eat sausages, period. Its not mmy thing, just the same way that I dont eat lamb and turkey. (I guess your lamb od God is save in my care, while you will eat it one time).

I chose the name nopuqeater (no pork eater) because in New York city, we have chinese muslims who have restaurants serving the public, therefore catering to the need of the fledgling muslim community. Is it now wrong that we in islam drink beer that has no alcohol, or wine that has no alcohol? it is alcohol that we are forbidden, not non-alcoholic beer and or wine. Ask your christian friends they must have consumed some A&W root beer in the summer, before? Ask if it has any alcohol in it? In Nigeria, they have ginger beer. Ask mom to make some for you. But let me warn you, you have to be a strong man to drink it. Its kinda spicy.
I dont know about you, man, because to me you cant take the ginger punch you will feel in your throat.

Here is what Jesus has to say on thoughts of adultery:
Matthew 5:28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matthew 9:4. And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

Your religion is too hard and lacks good dose of mercy even from the mouth of Jesus, as by above verse. But then entrapped himself. Saying one thing and doing the opposite: Jesus warned people not to call anyone "fool". And the consequent of such a statementlands the sayer in hellfire. But then, immediately, Jesus called somebody "fool". Where should jesus be? Afteral, he said of himself "Jesus YOur servant who You send.

^If you think an evil or sinful thought, that makes you a sinner even if you didn't actually carry it out!
Proverbs 23:7. For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he

These are the obvious reasons Christianity is a religion that lacks mercy and leaning to being a fraud. How is it that you are told that it is full of mercy and then just the mere flashing of a thought in your mind has now become a sin, even you did not do what you thought about for a moment? Here is a scenario for you: the other day, I was told that some 22 year old woman robbed a bank in Akure, Ondo State and gort away with it, with plenty of money, and killing senselessly many of the guards.

We will now slice this young woman into two, in order to make a clone of her, making two of her alive at the same time, aving the same thought. One of her carried out the bank robbery, while the other didnt, but only thought about it. Now before Nigerian court, which one of them is the thief, worthy of trial, judgement and execution if thats the reward of armed robbers with lost of lived? Is the mercy of Nigerian court better than that of Christian God, a religion that says it is wrapped in mercy? The law of Nigeria is with better mercy since it does not take the thought, but action as a criteria. While on the other hand mere thought condemned you as a christian! What if you were angry when a man was robbing your home and you felt for a moment like killing him. The man took all he could and left. Have you not became a killer as per the statement of Jesus? And in the eyes of humans, you are not a killer, murderer but a person violated?

What if you felt like hitting a person that insulted your aged mother, yet you didnt? it was just a thought. can he sue you for violence on his person? In christianity, based on what Jesus said, you have not preemptly struck him, but you didnt turn the other cheek of momma for the man to hit! You are very wet behind the ears in the matters of reasoning.

But before God the Holy and Righteous Judge your are haraam, and more so because you say you are without sin.
I John 1:8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

This applies to your Biblical Jesu more than me. I commit sins by my actions. daily and I ask Allah my Creator to forgive and have mercy on me. While you carry the sins from Adam and Eve, i have none of that. I am responsible for my own sins. I acquire them. I ask forgiveness and mercy because of them, and protection from blatancy of commiting sins and errors. Jesus of the Bible kids you to ignorance because you say he is sinless. But from his own mouth and the action that emanates from him, calling somebody a fool,[/b]he is a sinner. I didnt say it. I just repaeted fro the pages of the Bible.


[b]I am disappointed in ou for the simple reason that in all our dialogue, it is the issue of sausage making that attracted you! What happened to the bigger picture of God is One, while you worship in trinity? By the way, it is permissible to eat pork under special circumstances. The israelis used to feed Palestinians they captured pork, assuming that everyone of them is a muslim, disregarding the christian population.

^You have been trapped by your own words as any neutral reader of this thread will see hence your quibbling and obfuscation with the sausage. You disingenuously try to evade the question of your sin! So let me repost again in terms that make it very clear to you!

nopuqeater:

Alhamdulillah. Am a muslim. If I have a bad or evil thought, it is not a sin on me, until I effectuate it. If I have a good thought and I am unable to fulfill it, it will be recorded for me as a good deed performed. This shows that am on easier road to success than you with the burden that your mere thought of evil or bad is a sin for you.

^

aletheia:

^So the [pork] sausage is halaal after all.

When is a [pork] sausage not halaal?   
When it is made of pork!
    But if only a small part of it is pork?
    Or if only the skin is from a pig?

The obvious answer is: none of these [pork] sausages are halaal. All are haraam. The same can be applied to man. When is a man not acceptable to Perfectly Holy and Just God?
    When he is a mass murderer?
    When he is an occasional adulterer?
    When he occasionally has an evil thought?

At any time - unless the sin, however big or small, is atoned for! And that happens by justification, when the judgment of God is actually executed to punish my sin; when God Himself in Jesus takes our place of punishment to save us from it.

Here is what Jesus has to say on thoughts of adultery:
Matthew 5:28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matthew 9:4. And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
^If you think an evil or sinful thought, that makes you a sinner even if you didn't actually carry it out!
Proverbs 23:7. For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he

But before God the Holy and Righteous Judge your are haraam, and more so because you say you are without sin.
I John 1:8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.