Uyi168:
...
I'm very happy for u..
All the best..

Thank you so much Sir.

CAPSLOCKED:

YOU NUT IN HER MOUTH ON SUNDAY MORNING, SHE GOES TO CHURCH AND EATS COMMUNION WITH THAT SAME MOUTH, YOU NUT IN HER ASŚ AFTER SUNDAY SERVICE.

-THE LIFE OF A CONFUSED CHRISTIAN GIRLFRIEND.

Guy let her rest small na. LMFAO!

Martinez19:
Do you believe in the christian god or not? It's not a complex question. If you don't want to answer, you say so or ignore me. Do

There's no Christian god. The Bible is a story of other people's view of who God is and their relationship with Him.

My view of who God is now makes me to question some of what's written in there but there are two authors that speak to me.

luvmijeje:


There's no Christian god. The Bible is a story of other people's view of who God is and their relationship with Him.

My view of who God is now makes me to question some of what's written in there but there are two authors that speak to me.

I know you think you know what you think you know.
Deism is just one of Man's crappy tales.
The more you know, the more you need to know.

luvmijeje:


There's no Christian god. The Bible is a story of other people's view of who God is and their relationship with Him.

My view of who God is now makes me to question some of what's written in there but there are two authors that speak to me.

Hey luvmi , I respect your worldview. I find it more logical and less assuming and also, less arrogant than any religion at all. But I have one question. If you believe in an uncaused first cause called God, why is it hard for you to accept that the universe can be self existing?

luvmijeje:


There's no Christian god. The Bible is a story of other people's view of who God is and their relationship with Him.

My view of who God is now makes me to question some of what's written in there but there are two authors that speak to me.

Okay fine even though your topics say otherwise. Here are my final Yes or no questions :

1) what makes you think this god of yours exists?
2) is Jesus the son of this god?
3) do you believe in the Holy spirit?

Please answer.

God is the personification of totality of the consciousness of the universe fully embodied... There is just 1 God, it is just the nomenclature that is different, that is why it is referred to as a UNIVERSE, Whether good or evil, God is solely responsible.. But what is good and what is evil? That's a story for another day. ..
Man is one of the physical manifestation of consciousness... I normally say we are Gods on a human journey.. Just as a NASA astronaut needs a special suit to adapt to conditions on the moon, we need this body to adapt to the conditions on earth..
The written scriptures are stories or parables told by people to teach us how to live together in peace and how the other parts of nature affects us and things we can and can't do so that we live a healthy life in the flesh..
God is not a man or human being, and definitely not a jew.. That the Romans and Jews has made their own story to be widely read does not mean it is the only truth.. People make the mistake of dwelling on the content of the story, without realising that the story is based on a lie, the message in the story is what gives life.. A healthy life...
The fact that the jews used Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, moses as characters in their stories does not mean it is more authentic than the yoruba that uses oromila, esu, Sango.. Etc.. End of the day the message in both stories are the same which might be just to warn you of the dangers apparent in pleasure without responsibility (God killing Onan for failing to impregnate his brother wife).. Or the danger of making a vow that will end up making you unhappy(japhteh vow).. Or the story of David and goliath (the God inside of you is greater than the obstacle in front of you)... Etc.

Worshipping anything other than the God within is idolatry.. Worshipping any thing in the likeness of anything in the heaven, like moon, sun, stars or any thing on earth like human beings, trees, rivers is forbidden.. Christians worshipping a God created in the likeness of a man is tantamount to idolatry. And forbidden..

I am not trying to answer any questions but given interpretation of written words..

sonmvayina:
God is the personification of totality of the consciousness of the universe fully embodied... There is just 1 God, it is just the nomenclature that is different, that is why it is referred to as a UNIVERSE, Whether good or evil, God is solely responsible.. But what is good and what is evil? That's a story for another day. ..
Man is one of the physical manifestation of consciousness... I normally say we are Gods on a human journey.. Just as a NASA astronaut needs a special suit to adapt to conditions on the moon, we need this body to adapt to the conditions on earth..
The written scriptures are stories or parables told by people to teach us how to live together in peace and how the other parts of nature affects us and things we can and can't do so that we live a healthy life in the flesh..
God is not a man or human being, and definitely not a jew.. That the Romans and Jews has made their own story to be widely read does not mean it is the only truth.. People make the mistake of dwelling on the content of the story, without realising that the story is based on a lie, the message in the story is what gives life.. A healthy life...
The fact that the jews used Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, moses as characters in their stories does not mean it is more authentic than the yoruba that uses oromila, esu, Sango.. Etc.. End of the day the message in both stories are the same which might be just to warn you of the dangers apparent in pleasure without responsibility (God killing Onan for failing to impregnate his brother wife).. Or the danger of making a vow that will end up making you unhappy(japhteh vow).. Or the story of David and goliath (the God inside of you is greater than the obstacle in front of you)... Etc.

Worshipping anything other than the God within is idolatry.. Worshipping any thing in the likeness of anything in the heaven, like moon, sun, stars or any thing on earth like human beings, trees, rivers is forbidden.. Christians worshipping a God created in the likeness of a man is tantamount to idolatry. And forbidden..

I am not trying to answer any questions but given interpretation of written words..

The God you're talking about doesn't exist as well.

HellVictorinho:

The God you're talking about doesn't exist as well.

God is divine consciousness... Except you say consciousness does not exist... Then that's OK too

sonmvayina:


God is divine consciousness... Except you say consciousness does not exist... Then that's OK too

Divine consciousness doesn't exist.
It is a theoretical term.
And the "whole" idea behind it doesn't make sense.

HellVictorinho:

Divine consciousness doesn't exist.
It is a theoretical term.
And the "whole" idea behind it doesn't make sense.

Exactly!

Before I give my opinion about the questions., let me say this....

The mistake many Christians make is that whenever we are unable to answer some questions about life and

existence, we get discouraged and some lost faith totally. Most Christian-turn-atheist fell into disbelief because of some questions they couldn't not fathom..

Then they conclude and say.. "it doesn't make sense "

Whenever I don't have answers to questions about life I just know that humans are limited. ..

.i acknowledge that I don't have all the answers and move on.

I can only exist in a place at a time.. This means I am limited in space. ..we are limited in time, speed and energy.

Even our machines are limited in the speed of operation...

Humans are limited in physical knowledge.. There are so many unknowns in the world of science...We don't even know everything about this planet...

A lot of diseases are yet to have a cure...

We are all so dependent on air that if it ceases in more than10 minutes, billions will die.

What does this tell you?

It means we are limited in what we can do, in what we know and in what we can have access to.

We therefore cannot understand ALL MYSTERIES... Spiritual mysteries are even worst. It is way beyond our league.

As humans, our understanding shall be full when we drop this body in death...

My daughter did not know my Father... because he is dead...

She will only believe whatever I tell her about my Father... She has never seen him and we never see him..

Does that mean that my father never existed?

God exists. He is a spirit. The fact that you don't see him doesn't make him unreal.

He simply exist in a realm you don't have access to.... He is a spirit.

Just as my father existed in a realm that my daughter had no access to. .

You can't understand all mysteries...the devil brings doubt by posing questions you may not have answers to.....

Beware.

It is not possible to have answers to all mysteries.If you understand this, you won't have a problem.

Now, let me answer your questions...

XxSabrinaxX:
* Why does geography seem to have far more to do with one's religious choice than actual free will?

Free will governs more than you appear to recognize. People who choose to rebel against God tend to bunch together and form groups that cohere with respect to their preferred reasons for rebelling. So, if a number of people are rebelling because they want to be free to treat weaker or poorer people than them in an uncharitable way, then they will tend to form a geographical community that defines itself in that way. The example here would be Hinduism.

Of course, people who choose to submit to God will also gravitate to each other and seek to form geographical communities as well.

So, it is free will, that ability we have to choose whether to submit to God or to rebel against Him, that leads to people creating geographical communities with preferred religious attitudes.

XxSabrinaxX:
* How can you say God loves and cares about everyone if some people suffer while others prosper?

Because He gives every last human being the exact same opportunity and resources to be saved from eternal condemnation.

XxSabrinaxX:
* Even if we assume that one particular religion is true, doesn't the existence of many religions at least prove that mankind likes to make up religious stories, and that people have a tendency to believe them? How do you know yours isn't one of those?

You're exactly right that human beings like to make up stories and believe them. In fact, that is the gist in my answer to your first question.

I know because Creation and my conscience are strong witnesses to its Truth.

XxSabrinaxX:
* If everyone actually believes in the Christian god, why would highly religious non-Christians purposefully following the wrong religion, especially when that religion is more strict or just as strict as any sect of Christianity?

Because every human being with a normal intelligence possesses a genuine free will. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to seek alternatives of all hues and shades.

XxSabrinaxX:
* If Adam and Eve only knew good and evil after eating the fruit, then why did God assume when he told them not to eat it that they knew it was "wrong"?

First, why do you claim that Adam and Eve only knew good and evil after eating the fruit? Does the Bible say this?

Second, I am completely befuddled how anyone can ask what you just did. If God told Adam and Eve that they should NOT eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, why is that not enough to tell them that doing so would be wrong, especially given the very terrible punishment attached?

XxSabrinaxX:
* Why do we inherit sin from our ancestors, but salvation has to be an individual choice?

Why do you claim that we inherit sin from our ancestors? If you mean that we inherit a sin nature, then, yes, we do. That was what eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil did. Disobeying God like that damaged the human body and since then that damage has been passed down through the males. But possessing a sin nature is not the same as sinning. All human beings possess a free will still. When we sin, we do so because we prefer to. So, we are still responsible for our sins. But each sin is completely individual.

XxSabrinaxX:
* If god is omniscient, (all knowing), why do you need to pray to him?

Because prayer is my recognition of His Authority as King over Creation and my expression of my willing dependence upon and confidence in Him.

XxSabrinaxX:
* If god is omniscient, (all knowing), why does he need to test us?

So that we (and fellow humans and the Holy angels) will know what is really in our hearts and how wise and powerful God is in all that He does.

XxSabrinaxX:
* If god is omnibenevolent, (All Loving) why did he create evil? In Isaiah 45:7 the scripture reads as follows: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

God only creates adversity and calamity as judgment upon moral evil. That is a good thing because if God does not judge evil, evil will overrun creation causing harm to those who are not evil themselves.

XxSabrinaxX:
* Please explain the difference between a "Claim" and "Evidence" and after doing so, please show me the evidence for your god.

First, I answer questions because I am pleased to answer them, not because you pay me to answer them. And I happen to not be your slave nor am I indebted to you in any respect. So, don't presume to give me instructions.

Second, a claim is just an assertion that something is true with no reason offered for why it is. Evidence, on the other hand, is the reason offered for why a claim is true.

The evidence for God in Christianity is creation.

* Why does geography seem to have far more to do with one's religious choice than actual free will?


...Man's Free will is far more powerful than you think.

A lady left Saudi Arabia in the news on front page today and got asylum in Toronto....she renounced Islam and fled.
She was born in Saudi Arabia, which makes her more likely to embrace Islam. She was a Muslim until she decided to dump Islam.

she had a choice and took it. Others stayed because they want to.

People, because of freewill, had died for their belief.

Seun happens to be a child of a pastor who should stay with Christianity. He choose atheism...

Free will is more powerful in the choice of religion than geographical location.

* How can you say God loves and cares about everyone if some people suffer while others prosper?

This question has multiple answers...

One's choice can make someone to succeed while another fails...I can decide to fail an interview because I don't like the organization.

I can decide to choose a fast but crooked way to success and then fail in the process.

Man-made circumstances (govt, governance, etc.) can make one to fail while another succeeds...Probability of .Success is higher in Switzerland than in Nigeria.

God factor can also make one to fail while another succeeds. He is a Sovereign God....

He can put one in Switzerland and created another to be in Nigeria... He is God alone, all by himself... No one can question him.

.....to be continued....

I have to go to church tomorrow....

Good night guys.

Ihedinobi3:

Free will governs more than you appear to recognize. People who choose to rebel against God tend to bunch together and form groups that cohere with respect to their preferred reasons for rebelling. So, if a number of people are rebelling because they want to be free to treat weaker or poorer people than them in an uncharitable way, then they will tend to form a geographical community that defines itself in that way. The example here would be Hinduism.

I cannot believe Ihedinobi3 that you actually agree with what you wrote up there.

Do you realise that there are over a billion Hindus in this world and that most of them had no say with regards to the place , time and race of their birth ? You statement creates the impression that God holds the descendants of rebels responsible for whatever state they find themselves in irrespective of how they got into that state. This is a rather bizarre and shocking finding. Your novel idea of geographical gravitation has absolutely no support biblically and is simply another case of making up stories to support your own belief, as you go along.

Free Will can ONLY be truly FREEWILL if the TRUTH and the absolute TRUTH is revealed to all creation , giving them the chance to make a BLACK and WHITE DECISION. If they then REJECT this TRUTH, we can all agree that they had free will and exercised this right accordingly. But to erroneously suggest that people born into ignorance and superstition due to millennia old religious ideas ,that have been passed down to them , will perish because they rejected the gospel is a truly laughable idea.

Of course, people who choose to submit to God will also gravitate to each other and seek to form geographical communities as well

So, it is free will, that ability we have to choose whether to submit to God or to rebel against Him, that leads to people creating geographical communities with preferred religious attitudes.

Sorry, but this is more astounding rubbish.

Because He gives every last human being the exact same opportunity and resources to be saved from eternal condemnation.

No actually, he does not give every last human being the exact same opportunity and resources to be saved from eternal condemnation when ;

1. Most of them until fairly recently knew nothing of your JESUS
2. Many of them are born into communities and cultures permeated with ancient religious traditions. They are then brainwashed into adhering to these traditions and taught to reject other ideas.
3. In China and Russia in recent times, the rejection of religion by the people was GOVERNMENT imposed due to communism.

These 3 non exhaustive points make it very clear that not all men and women have been given the exact same opportunity and resources to be saved from eternal condemnation. This is plainly false to the reasoning mind.

You're exactly right that human beings like to make up stories and believe them. In fact, that is the gist in my answer to your first question.

I know because Creation and my conscience are strong witnesses to its Truth.

Because you are more special than others who do not have this conviction ??

Because every human being with a normal intelligence possesses a genuine free will. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to seek alternatives of all hues and shades.

You mean like in Christianity where 2 billion followers seek alternatives of all hues and shades within the same religion ? Strange

Why do you claim that we inherit sin from our ancestors? If you mean that we inherit a sin nature, then, yes, we do. That was what eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil did. Disobeying God like that damaged the human body and since then that damage has been passed down through the males. But possessing a sin nature is not the same as sinning. All human beings possess a free will still. When we sin, we do so because we prefer to. So, we are still responsible for our sins. But each sin is completely individual.

So the sin of one MAN damaged the human body because God knowingly subjected man to this plight for the laugh of it and therefore condemned all men with a cursed body which was caused by the sin of one man ; Even though he knew that this cursed body will lead to sin , he allowed billions more people to be born into this world, reserved an eternal place of torture for most of them and sent his son to save only a small proportion of his beloved creation ?

Please don't make me laugh, this is not justice, this is RUBBISH and made up claptrap.

Try again.

am i late oo

frosbel2:
Christians have been thoroughly trashed on this forum by you guys, well done.

Even the apologists have fled the scene !

Ihedinobi3:

Free will governs more than you appear to recognize. People who choose to rebel against God tend to bunch together and form groups that cohere with respect to their preferred reasons for rebelling. So, if a number of people are rebelling because they want to be free to treat weaker or poorer people than them in an uncharitable way, then they will tend to form a geographical community that defines itself in that way. The example here would be Hinduism.
Of course, people who choose to submit to God will also gravitate to each other and seek to form geographical communities as well.

So, it is free will, that ability we have to choose whether to submit to God or to rebel against Him, that leads to people creating geographical communities with preferred religious attitudes.

Fair enough. Although, I never neglected the effect of free will on the choice of people's origin. I simply stated that the place of birth and the household an individual grows up in plays a large role in determing his/her religion. Most people born in India would happen to be Hindu. Those born in America are more likely to be christians. If you're born in Saudi Arabia, you'll most likely end up muslim.

Ihedinobi3:
Because He gives every last human being the exact same opportunity and resources to be saved from eternal condemnation.

Your response is a little vague. There are devoted christians who constantly suffer and end up dying in their sorrows. How do you explain those situations?

Ihedinobi3:
You're exactly right that human beings like to make up stories and believe them. In fact, that is the gist in my answer to your first question.

I know because Creation and my conscience are strong witnesses to its Truth.

And how does this disprove the countless other religions? Have you ever considered that one of them may be correct?

Ihedinobi3:
Because every human being with a normal intelligence possesses a genuine free will. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to seek alternatives of all hues and shades.

So what will happen to these religion non-christians when they die? Didn't the bible say that its only those who are born again in Christ that will see God's kingdom?

Ihedinobi3:
First, why do you claim that Adam and Eve only knew good and evil after eating the fruit? Does the Bible say this?

Second, I am completely befuddled how anyone can ask what you just did. If God told Adam and Eve that they should NOT eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, why is that not enough to tell them that doing so would be wrong, especially given the very terrible punishment attached?

First, its called the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (duh?). How are they going to differentiate good from evil if they haven't eaten the fruit?
Secondly (to answer your other question), I'm going to ask you: Did God know for sure whether they'll eat from the tree? Answer objectively.

Ihedinobi3:
Why do you claim that we inherit sin from our ancestors? If you mean that we inherit a sin nature, then, yes, we do. That was what eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil did. Disobeying God like that damaged the human body and since then that damage has been passed down through the males. But possessing a sin nature is not the same as sinning. All human beings possess a free will still. When we sin, we do so because we prefer to. So, we are still responsible for our sins. But each sin is completely individual.

This doesn't really address the salvation aspect though. Can a person who lives a righteous life without ever knowing Jesus and accepting him as lord and saviour make heaven?

Ihedinobi3:
Because prayer is my recognition of His Authority as King over Creation and my expression of my willing dependence upon and confidence in Him.

Yes, I'm aware that prayer is mostly philosophical introspection. But, what of those who pray for health, or pray for a successful job hunt, or pray for deliverance, and countless other things people pray to God to ask about? Are those prayers really necessary given that God already knows what they'll say and will only answer the prayers if it corresponds with his will?

Ihedinobi3:
So that we (and fellow humans and the Holy angels) will know what is really in our hearts and how wise and powerful God is in all that He does.

Another vague response. Why does God need to prove to us how wise and powerful he is? We know that already.

Ihedinobi3:
God only creates adversity and calamity as judgment upon moral evil. That is a good thing because if God does not judge evil, evil will overrun creation causing harm to those who are not evil themselves.

What do you mean "moral evil"? Where did that come from?

Ihedinobi3:
[s]First, I answer questions because I am pleased to answer them, not because you pay me to answer them. And I happen to not be your slave nor am I indebted to you in any respect. So, don't presume to give me instructions. [/s]

The above display of ad hominem is completely unnecessary. This is MY thread. MY questions, and MY rules. I only mentioned you to have a discussion because I remember telling you we'll continue our argument. I didn't force a gun to your head and tell you to answer the questions. So don't come at me with that BS.

Ihedinobi3:
Second, a claim is just an assertion that something is true with no reason offered for why it is. Evidence, on the other hand, is the reason offered for why a claim is true.

The evidence for God in Christianity is creation.

Your evidence is vague. Any religion can come up and claim "creation" to be evidence of their god.

luvmijeje:
Seun, what's happening? I was mentioned and it didn't appear on my mention.

Yup that mention feature has stopped giving posters notifications when their monikers are mentioned.
It seems the "mention" flag was inadvertently switched off and not switched back on after the usual site maintenance routine.

Vic2Ree:

LMFAO, HE'S BACK!!! THE DISGRACED MONKEY SHELUMIEL HAS RETURNED
Martinez19, HellVictorinho, CreepyBlackpool, MhizAngel99, RuthlessLeader, finalboss. Come and see the return of this disgraced fool!
Have you forgotten this thread so soon? The thread where XxSabrinaxX dragged and exposed your foolishness to everybody?
https://www.nairaland.com/4952457/christianity-burden-proof
Park well, joor. Before Aunty Sabrina will come and flog you again

I must be the only person who read that thread with a straight face. The insults were childish

XxSabrinaxX:

1* Why does geography seem to have far more to do with one's religious choice than actual free will?
2* How can you say God loves and cares about everyone if some people suffer while others prosper?
3* Even if we assume that one particular religion is true, doesn't the existence of many religions at least prove that mankind likes to make up religious stories, and that people have a tendency to believe them? How do you know yours isn't one of those?
4* If everyone actually believes in the Christian god, why would highly religious non-Christians purposefully following the wrong religion, especially when that religion is more strict or just as strict as any sect of Christianity?
5* If Adam and Eve only knew good and evil after eating the fruit, then why did God assume when he told them not to eat it that they knew it was "wrong"?
6* Why do we inherit sin from our ancestors, but salvation has to be an individual choice?
7* If god is omniscient, (all knowing), why do you need to pray to him?
8* If god is omniscient, (all knowing), why does he need to test us?
9* If god is omnibenevolent, (All Loving) why did he create evil? In Isaiah 45:7 the scripture reads as follows: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
10* Please explain the difference between a "Claim" and "Evidence" and after doing so, please show me the evidence for your god.

1. I don't understand this question. Explain more.

2. Short answer: God deems the retention of our freedom as a greater good than even the momentary suspension of human freedom for human security and safety. So, God does not remove our choices to do good or evil. God knows that even in the midst of the worst evil he can bring about a greater good. Take for example, God did not will that Jesus died. That's not part of his perfect will, that's part of his permissive will that he allowed that to happen and Jesus allowed that to happen to himself - he offered himself knowing that he could bring about a greater good.

3. Truth is easy to RE-cognize when one overcomes his/her biases. If you TRULY seek truth, you will find it.

4. Humans are susceptible to being fooled/tricked as soon as we abandon our thinking faculty and let emotions rule. Also, a lot of people go to church ONLY to get their problems solved. So, as long as the church is fulfilling their needs, they don't really care to ask if there's any hole in their church's belief and teaching.

5. I don't if God assumed they knew it was wrong. They probably didn't know until the serpent came and tempted Eve.

6. Quick explanation: Because that is the nature of sin. Sin we commit affects others. If a man has a gambling addiction and gambles away his earnings, his family suffers. If woman who is addicted to crack gives birth to a baby who is addicted to crack, the poor baby did not commit the sin, yet he suffers for it.

7. The fact that he is all-knowing is enough reason we should always seek his guidance and direction, favors, or even to vent our emotions. If you think hard about this, how are we even sure we know what's good for ourselves let alone what's best? Our knowledge is limited so we reach out consultation.

8. Why do University professors ask their students questions and give them exams? Is it to learn from the students the answers they previously did not know? Obviously not. The professors already know the answers. The purpose of administering the exams is to give the students the opportunity to learn, grow, and prove themselves.
God tested Abraham so as to make the Abraham's faith known both to himself and to all the world. God put Abraham to the test as a way of manifesting to all people that he is truly the Father of believers. The Angel, speaking in the person of God, says, "for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.". It's not as though it is only at this late moment, when Abraham has offered his son Isaac to God, that the Lord has come to know of Abraham’s faith; God was not learning something new here. Rather, it was at this moment that God (through his angelic messenger) has made Abraham's faith to be known both to Abraham and to all. Put simply, the testing of Abraham was not unto God’s benefit, but for the Patriarch’s sake and ours.

The tests of life are less for God to "obtain information" that he already knows, and more opportunities for us to grow (or not, depending on what we choose).

9. Prior to this verse, Isaiah is describing how God is in complete control of the universe. The Israelite’s suffering is not the result of God being unable to fend off other evil gods, a belief common among non-Jews of the time. Rather, when the Israelites suffer, the prophet has made it clear that God is aware of their suffering and is directing it toward a good end.

Only God is absolute. Everything else, including the devil, is relative. The devil is not a defect in God’s creation but rather a spiritual being using God-given freedom in a way that God never intended. That freedom is the reason why we say that people have been made in the image and likeness of God. The same is true of angels. That’s why Christianity has always seen the devil not as God’s equal but as God’s creature, who uses God-given freedom very selfishly. In John Milton’s poem Paradise Lost, Lucifer says, “I will not serve.” God did not create evil in the same sense that God created galaxies, stars, soil, water, animals, plants, people and everything else. Evil is a void that results from rejecting God’s ways and trying to impose our own. Satan’s power is strong but limited.

Although denying freewill may seem to solve the problem of evil, in fact, that would dishonor God. Left to ourselves, we are indeed a weak lot. Sharing the graced life that God intends for us, we can unmask Satan’s temptations for the lies that they always are.God created us freely and wanted to share divine life with us; that requires real freedom on God’s part and on ours. If God had not given us freedom, we could neither sin nor love. Have you or I seen more human evil than Blessed Mother Teresa of Kolkata? Probably not. Have you and I used our freedom as wisely and as generously as she used hers? Again, probably not. But we are still on our journey as disciples.

10. There's a twofold point of departure or "ways" of approaching God from creation: the physical world, and the human person.

The physical world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the world's order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the universe. Apostle Paul says of the Gentiles, "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made." And St. Augustine (354-430) issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky.... question all these realities. All respond: "See, we are beautiful." Their beauty is a profession (confessio). These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One (Pulcher) who is not subject to change?

The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God's existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. The soul, the "seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material", can have its origin only in God. The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality "that everyone calls God".

Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

Children raised in a loving family, have a fairly easy time believing in God, until they come face-to-face with frequent and horrendous evil. At that point, they may update their assumptions about God, or they may conclude that God is a nice story that most people outgrow just as they outgrow their childhood toys, shoes and clothes.

XxSabrinaxX:

Fair enough. Although, I never neglected the effect of free will on the choice of people's origin. I simply stated that the place of birth and the household an individual grows up in plays a large role in determing his/her religion. Most people born in India would happen to be Hindu. Those born in America are more likely to be christians. If you're born in Saudi Arabia, you'll most likely end up muslim.

Your question forced a false dichotomy, essentially suggesting that religious choices are affected by either place of origin or by free will. That was the problem.

As for how people's birth affects their choices, not a single human being is born without a conscience unless they are mentally deficient in some way. That means that every single human being has everything they need - no matter where they are born - to recognize their need for a Savior. It is a choice to either seek out that Savior or to ignore that need and carry on with the status quo of their community.

Obviously, there have always been people in every culture who sought out the Gospel and were saved, so, clearly, culture and geographical limits don't prevent people from being saved if they want to be.

XxSabrinaxX:
Your response is a little vague. There are devoted christians who constantly suffer and end up dying in their sorrows. How do you explain those situations?

It isn't vague at all. You just measured God's Love by the wrong parameters. The true concern of God's Love is each person's eternal destiny. The conditions of our lives here on earth are fleeting. They matter greatly to us, no doubt, but they are really nothing compared to what lies beyond the Grave. If one is wealthy, healthy and perfectly happy in this life (an impossibility though) but remains an unrepentant rebel until they die, they have only an eternity of anguish and sorrow to look forward to in the Lake of Fire. No memory of all the pleasures of this life would comfort them there. In fact, it would only worsen their pain since they would know exactly what they lost and how much more they lost because of what they preferred over their own eternal well-being.

The converse is equally true. If one only ever knew suffering in this life but not only remained true to Jesus Christ but also labored to grow in His Truth and help other people to do the same and be spiritually productive until they die, then the riches and glory that they come into when their Lord judges their work will wipe every possibility of regret from their hearts. All the pain of their lives on earth would completely disappear in the face of the incredible eternal rewards that they earn for their faithfulness to Jesus Christ.

So the conditions of life in this world are important only with respect to how we respond to the Gospel and to God's Truth. It is that Truth that is the demonstration of God's Love to rebels who deserve nothing good from Him.

XxSabrinaxX:
And how does this disprove the countless other religions? Have you ever considered that one of them may be correct?

To your first question, if the teachings of a religion contradict what is manifest in the world around me or what I know deep within me is true or if it contradicts itself, then I would be remiss indeed to hang my eternal welfare on it.

To your second question, not since I believed in the Lord Jesus. I know without a doubt that not a single religion out there is true.

XxSabrinaxX:
So what will happen to these religion non-christians when they die? Didn't the bible say that its only those who are born again in Christ that will see God's kingdom?

Anyone who dies unbelieving is already condemned. They will be in Torments until the Judgment of the Great White Throne after which they will be deposited into the Lake of Fire for all eternity.

Indeed, only believers in Jesus Christ will be saved.

XxSabrinaxX:
First, its called the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (duh?). How are they going to differentiate good from evil if they haven't eaten the fruit?
Secondly (to answer your other question), I'm going to ask you: Did God know for sure whether they'll eat from the tree? Answer objectively.

So, it was only an inference you made. The Bible does not teach what you claimed, and to demonstrate that your inference was wrong, consider that there was also a Tree of Life, yet we do not assume that they were dead until they ate its fruit.

Regarding your second response, what does your question have to do with whether Adam and Eve knew that it was wrong to eat the fruit?

XxSabrinaxX:
This doesn't really address the salvation aspect though. Can a person who lives a righteous life without ever knowing Jesus and accepting him as lord and saviour make heaven?

I assume then that you are dropping the claim that we inherit sin from our progenitors. Is that correct?

Yes, it does address the salvation issue. As you said, Salvation is an individual question. Each sinner is responsible to choose to be saved. Just like each person was free in the first instance to choose to become a sinner.

As to your question, if any human being can be absolutely perfect without sin of any kind, then, obviously, they don't need to be saved at all. They are by default already at perfect peace with God. So, of course they will be judged worthy of Heaven. But, not a single human being has a prayer at that.

XxSabrinaxX:
Yes, I'm aware that prayer is mostly philosophical introspection. But, what of those who pray for health, or pray for a successful job hunt, or pray for deliverance, and countless other things people pray to God to ask about? Are those prayers really necessary given that God already knows what they'll say and will only answer the prayers if it corresponds with his will?

My answer was not at all that "prayer is mostly philosophical introspection". It was that when I pray, it is because I accept that God is in full charge of Creation and because I recognize that all I can have is whatever He is pleased to give to me and because I am confident that He wants to give me only such things as are good for me.

So, I ask for things trusting that if they are good things to ask for (since I very rarely know when what I am asking for is a good thing to have), He will give them to me. In other words, prayer is what God has given me to actually have a relationship with Him. It is for my benefit, not for His.

XxSabrinaxX:
Another vague response. Why does God need to prove to us how wise and powerful he is? We know that already.

My responses are only vague when you are expecting the wrong answers.

I wasn't aware that you had become a Christian. You know how wise and powerful God is? Good for you!

For the rest of us believers, while we do believe that there are no limits to God's Wisdom and Power, we often have no concept what that practically means. Creature history - especially human history - is God's Way of teaching us just that. These practical demonstrations help us to understand Who and What He is so that we are confirmed in our faith in Him. We are going to be with Him eternally after all. It builds our confidence in Him to see how He solves the impossible problems that creature free will produces.

For unbelievers, however, these things will prove at the Judgment of the Great White Throne that not a single human being has any excuse to escape just punishment.

XxSabrinaxX:
What do you mean "moral evil"? Where did that come from?

There are two (or three, if we want to be nitpickers) kinds of evil:

1. Moral evil which is the same as creature rebellion against God;

2. Adversity or Calamity which is unpleasantness and discomfort which God causes in response to creature rebellion against Him[; and, in case we want to nitpick...

3. Natural evil which results from foolish disregard of God's rules in creation, for example, if you jump from a cliff without giving it adequate thought, your broken body will be buried and you will be in Heaven or Hell depending on your attitude toward God.]

God clearly is directly responsible only for that judgment that brings evil consequences upon rebels, not for the choices that moral creatures make.

XxSabrinaxX:
The above display of ad hominem is completely unnecessary. This is MY thread. MY questions, and MY rules. I only mentioned you to have a discussion because I remember telling you we'll continue our argument. I didn't force a gun to your head and tell you to answer the questions. So don't come at me with that BS.

It was not ad hominem since I was not attacking your person at all. It may be your thread but your mention of me could only be interpreted (to my mind, that is) as an invitation to respond to your questions. So it was insulting to read you demand for evidence for no clear reason other than that I am answering you already. If this is an attitude that you mean to sustain, I will take for granted that you have no respect for my person and will do my best to avoid discussing with you. I have already had this problem once with you. I don't intend to keep dragging the same issue around.

XxSabrinaxX:
Your evidence is vague. Any religion can come up and claim "creation" to be evidence of their god.

Again, I must say that you have not judged my answer correctly. An answer is vague if it fails to address what you asked directly. You asked what evidence I can give you for God and I told you that it is creation. I don't see how that is not a straightforward answer.

Anyone can claim that, for example, the sun is green. When we look at the sun, we can tell whether they should be believed or not. Creation is discernible and so are its attributes. If what we see in it corresponds to the claims that God makes about them and to what is demonstrable as His Nature, then we should believe that He made it.

XxSabrinaxX:
I posted these questions to one of the threads under the religious forum. But I found these questions interesting and I decided to dedicate a thread to answering these questions. Some of these questions are questions that have haunted me way back when I was still a christian:

* Why does geography seem to have far more to do with one's religious choice than actual free will?
* How can you say God loves and cares about everyone if some people suffer while others prosper?
* Even if we assume that one particular religion is true, doesn't the existence of many religions at least prove that mankind likes to make up religious stories, and that people have a tendency to believe them? How do you know yours isn't one of those?
* If everyone actually believes in the Christian god, why would highly religious non-Christians purposefully following the wrong religion, especially when that religion is more strict or just as strict as any sect of Christianity?
* If Adam and Eve only knew good and evil after eating the fruit, then why did God assume when he told them not to eat it that they knew it was "wrong"?
* Why do we inherit sin from our ancestors, but salvation has to be an individual choice?
* If god is omniscient, (all knowing), why do you need to pray to him?
* If god is omniscient, (all knowing), why does he need to test us?
* If god is omnibenevolent, (All Loving) why did he create evil? In Isaiah 45:7 the scripture reads as follows: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
* Please explain the difference between a "Claim" and "Evidence" and after doing so, please show me the evidence for your god.

P.S I want to appeal now before its too late. If you're a christian and the only thing you're going to do in this thread is hurl insults, I'd advise you to reconsider and stay away from this thread. Lets try our best to keep a civil argument

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Shelumiel, you're free to come and discuss too

Stupid questions

XxSabrinaxX:

Hey luvmi , I respect your worldview. I find it more logical and less assuming and also, less arrogant than any religion at all. But I have one question. If you believe in an uncaused first cause called God, why is it hard for you to accept that the universe can be self existing?

Thank you so much for your beautiful question. And I'm not being patronizing here.

It simply because of the magnitude of the universe. During my state of unbelief in God, I read a scientific article on this platform. It was the discovery of a new universe.

Then I was like, man has not even conquer his planetary system. Talk less of the billions and billions of planetary systems in our own universe. And I'm now reading that a new universe has been found.

Man is a particle of dust in the scheme of the universe. We are nothing. Then I felt like nothing.

At that point my unbelief in God stop. How are will able to survive in the midst of the magnitude of the universe?

MrPresident1:


Stupid questions

Answer them then.

Martinez19:
Okay fine even though your topics say otherwise. Here are my final Yes or no questions :

1) what makes you think this god of yours exists?
2) is Jesus the son of this god?
3) do you believe in the Holy spirit?

Please answer.

1. Because I've had a personal relationship with Him.

2. I no longer believe Jesus is the son of God but I know that He's a great Prophet.

3. No I don't. But I believe so much in spirituality.

1Sharon:


I must be the only person who read that thread with a straight face. The insults were childish

Yes, Madam. We know you can yab very well. Stop announcing yourself smh.

luvmijeje:


Thank you so much for your beautiful question. And I'm not being patronizing here.

It simply because of the magnitude of the universe. During my state of unbelief in God, I read a scientific article on this platform. It was the discovery of a new universe.

Then I was like, man has not even conquer his planetary system. Talk less of the billions and billions of planetary systems in our own universe. And I'm now reading that a new universe has been found.

Man is a particle of dust in the scheme of the universe. We are nothing. Then I felt like nothing.

At that point my unbelief in God stop. How are will able to survive in the midst of the magnitude of the universe?

I get what you are saying. I'm not trying to convert you to atheism (mind you I prefer deism to theism), but exactly how does the magnitude of the universe prove the existence of a god? If anything there is actually evidence that points to the fact that if the universe was designed, it wasn't designed for man. Have you considered that if God does exist, despite the lack of evidence for it, that the idea of that God is functionally useless? First there is no evidence, so why believe in it in the first place? And second, if this god stepped away after creating the universe and no longer is around, why even believe that? What purpose does that serve? It's just a way to try and explain the creation of the universe without subjecting yourself to any of the follow up questions.

Holding on to the Christian imagery I don't think is intentional. Remember that indoctrination is a powerful and dangerous thing, and I wouldn't fault you for not being able to let that go right away. Hell, that took me a few years to rationalize through. Getting to deism is a really strong start.

Bottom line is, I think a theist retreating to deism is a good thing, because they may finally realize how dangerous a theist mindset is to democracy, scientific understanding, and love. But in the end even deism is not more logical than atheism, at least in my opinion.

1Sharon:


I must be the only person who read that thread with a straight face. The insults were childish

How about well-timed?

luvmijeje:


1. Because I've had a personal relationship with Him.

2. I no longer believe Jesus is the son of God but I know that He's a great Prophet.

3. No I don't. But I believe so much in spirituality.

As per your number 2, its like saying Harry Potter is a good wizard because he killed voldermont... Does it make any sense?

XxSabrinaxX:

I get what you are saying. I'm not trying to convert you to atheism (mind you I prefer deism to theism), but exactly how does the magnitude of the universe prove the existence of a god? If anything there is actually evidence that points to the fact that if the universe was designed, it wasn't designed for man. Have you considered that if God does exist, despite the lack of evidence for it, that the idea of that God is functionally useless? First there is no evidence, so why believe in it in the first place? And second, if this god stepped away after creating the universe and no longer is around, why even believe that? What purpose does that serve? It's just a way to try and explain the creation of the universe without subjecting yourself to any of the follow up questions.

Holding on to the Christian imagery I don't think is intentional. Remember that indoctrination is a powerful and dangerous thing, and I wouldn't fault you for not being able to let that go right away. Hell, that took me a few years to rationalize through. Getting to deism is a really strong start.

Bottom line is, I think a theist retreating to deism is a good thing, because they may finally realize how dangerous a theist mindset is to democracy, scientific understanding, and love. But in the end even deism is not more logical than atheism, at least in my opinion.

This is my issue with the Atheist and the religionist. Their inability to see things from other people's perspective.

You didn't ask me why I believe there's God. You asked why I don't believe the universe is self existing.

Do you know why I'm able to understand the Atheist and the religionist? It is simply because I've been in both shoes.

The reason why the Atheist don't believe in God is because you didn't have a cause to believe in his existence. While the religionist have a cause to believe.

You can question. You can doubt but you don't have the right to denigrate my belief. Why am I saying this to you?

Holding on to the Christian imagery I don't think is intentional. Remember that indoctrination is a powerful and dangerous thing, and I wouldn't fault you for not being able to let that go right away. Hell, that took me a few years to rationalize through. Getting to deism is a really strong start.

Below is an excerpt from your comment.

1. What's your evidence that I'm holding on to an imagery?

2. Do you know me?

3. Did we both go through the same experience in life?

4. What's your evidence that I'm indoctrinated?

5. What's your evidence that I've never had encounter with God?

6. Do you believe an identical twins can never go through the same experience in life?

7. So what give you audacity to judge my relationship with God by the experience you went through in life.

8. Please do not re-write my life through your myopic view of life.

sonmvayina:


As per your number 2, its like saying Harry Potter is a good wizard because he killed voldermont... Does it make any sense?

I don't who voldermont was. When you are ready, you will use analogy that I can relate with