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Stats: 2,211,367 members, 4,827,330 topics. Date: Thursday, 21 March 2019 at 07:27 PM
Bible Scholars That Preach Repentance Here, This Is For You. / Interpretations Of The Bible. Bible Scholars Let's Talk. / I Find This Topic 'blasphemy Of The Holy Spirit' So Challenging.Bible Scholars (2) (3) (4)
|Bible Scholars, Let's Have You by joshmoy(m): 9:20am On Jan 13|
Morning all. I need a little clarification on something. Now Jesus Christ is said to be the way, truth and life.
First question : Do you believe in heaven and hell?
Second question : If you do, it is said that to go to heaven, you must be born again, accept Jesus Christ as your savior and all. Now, where do the infants go when they die ( either during birth or before maturity)? What is the criteria for the judgment of those who died before Christ?
pls support your response with scriptural backing
|Re: Bible Scholars, Let's Have You by Ihedinobi3: 9:52am On Jan 13|
I am a believer in Jesus Christ committed to following the Bible wherever it leads.
I will take your word for it that all you want is a clarification and I will be happy to answer all questions that you may have. But, please note that beyond a certain point, I tend to find discussion impossible and withdraw. If we do arrive at that point, I may quit responding but I will not do so without warning you that I am about to.
Regarding your question...
1. Yes, I believe in the existence of heaven and hell. Heaven is where God maintains a temporary abode which is both a battle headquarters and a layby for believers who die before the Second Advent.
2. Your question here is two questions so I will answer with two answers:
(a) Jesus Christ died for every human being's sins so that everyone has really been accounted for for salvation. Until a child reaches the age of accountability, they are saved by default because their sins have been paid for and they have neither rejected the Lord Jesus nor refused to accept Him. It is a free will choice to accept the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus in our behalf or to reject it but children and the mentally disabled are not equipped to make that choice, therefore they are automatically saved until they can choose not to be. This really is common sense but the Bible does teach both principles:
- that Jesus died for all sins and thus no one needs to suffer for their sins anymore unless they reject His Sacrifice (John 3:16)
- it is a free will choice that every human being possessing the capacity for thought must make (John 3:18).
(b) Before the Lord Jesus Christ came to die for all human beings, God gave His Promise to Adam and Eve and all their descendants that He would send a Savior Who would die for their sins and save them from eternal punishment (Genesis 3:15). Everyone beginning with Adam and Eve who put their faith in this Promised Savior was saved. That Faith was demonstrated by all the bloody sacrifices of the Old Testament including the animal skin that Adam and Eve were given by the Lord God Himself to wear (Genesis 3:21), Abel's sacrifice that made him so great with God (Genesis 4:4), Job's sacrifices for himself and his children (Job 1:5) and all the sacrifices of the Mosaic Law.
What this means is that God has from the beginning made salvation possible to every human being no matter who they were or where they were born and lived.
|Re: Bible Scholars, Let's Have You by joshmoy(m): 10:18pm On Jan 14|
Thanks for your reply. Tho i still have an issue with the last answer. Do you mean to say a simple sacrifice earned ppl places in heaven?
|Re: Bible Scholars, Let's Have You by Ihedinobi3: 12:35am On Jan 15|
There was nothing simple about that Sacrifice. If you know anything that was, I am ready to hear it.
|Re: Bible Scholars, Let's Have You by frosbel2(m): 12:51am On Jan 15|
First of all, you need to be able to do your own research instead of latching onto every word of a pastor or man of god.
The gospel of John from whence you quoted the scripture is BOGUS - READ ABOUT THE BOGUS GOSPEL OF JOHN
Secondly, how can Jesus be the WAY , the TRUTH and the LIFE when there are millions who have not heard of him and billions who do not have the opportunity to become his followers ?
First question : Do you believe in heaven and hell?
Hell fire does not exist and is not even supported by the bible.
A God who will destine 90% of his creation to a place of eternal torment is a MONSTER not worthy of worship. Thankfully this is a MYTH and not supported by the bible.
Link READ ME
|Re: Bible Scholars, Let's Have You by MuttleyLaff: 7:30am On Jan 15|
joshmoy:There is a place called heaven and its kingdom, as in, its territory extends from there straight down to earth, so in the affirmative, there is heaven.
Hell, exists, but the idea of hell, really is a Greek one, enmeshed in Greek mythologies. The correct word, from a Jewish perspective, is Sheol, instead of hell and if one wants to go further, then the lake of fire, so concluding, there is Sheol and there's a Lake of fire
joshmoy:"A stillborn baby arrives in a pointless birth and goes out into the darkness. The darkness then hides its name."
- Ecclesiastes 6:4
I'll take the liberty of slightly editing your original question, by replying to the following improved:
"If you do, it is said that to go to heaven, you must be born again, accept Jesus Christ as your savior and all. Now, where do the
That darkness, mentioned in Ecclesiastes 6:4 above, signifies, secrecy and hiding, as in, an indication of a secret place or hiding place, e.g. hiding under the cloak of darkness, now stillbirths, after death or when they die, just like everone else go to darkness. Of course, except you want it presented in further detail and/or go deeper into, at this jucture, it is suffice to say stillbirth go to darkness when they die.
joshmoy:This is avery good question too. I actually responded to the below next section first before starting with this section, so if you read further, as in next below, you'll notice the mention that the price or penalty for sin has been paid for the whole wide world, meaning everybody, every human being. Empathy and/or compassion, is at the top of the list of criteria for the judgment of those who died before and after Christ
It is on biblical record that empathy and/or compassion will get you a free pass into the Kingdom and/or a "get out of jail" card
joshmoy:I love quite a lot all your questions. I am sorry I didnt realise you are interested in scriptural references. I had already said I dont put forward such until when asked before reading this remark stating to support responses with scriptural backing
joshmoy:"He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins--and not only our sins but the sins of all the world."
- 1 John 2:2
In addition to all that Ihedinobi3 wrote that you replied to, yes, it is a simple sacrifice that was paid for the sins of the whole wide world. The actual word originally used is "propitiation", it literally means, to calm down, to placate, to make peace with, to win over or regain the favour of God by doing something that pleases Him. The thing is, because God is a principled and just God, His nature cant permit sin to happen without a subjection to a penalty or punishment. Now the solution to every human being not necessarily be subjected to penalty or punishment for sin is simply to replace something that is wrong with something that is right. The above 1 John 2:2 quote mentioning was unavoidable, because usually I do not quote bible verses until when asked, now this is why now, I am restraining myself from boring you with bible verses, and leaving out, in leaps and bounds, chunks and gaps of information but the absolute truth and fact of the whole matter, is the price for sin will cost us death, now the Good News is that Jesus, who incidentally happens to be God, has paid that price for us, with His life, by dying on the cross of Calvary. That which is wrong, was replaced with that which is right and above all, the penalty has been paid for too, as noticed stated in 1 John 2:2 above.
cc Ranchhoddas, frosbel2
|Re: Bible Scholars, Let's Have You by Ihedinobi3: 8:19am On Jan 15|
joshmoy:Please excuse my last response to this question. Obviously, it was late enough for me to make mistakes in my answers. I just reread our conversation and understood that your question was not referencing the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ Himself but rather the sacrifices I referred to prior.
Let me explain.
Clearly, the Bible says that the sacrifice of animals does not really do anything for sin (Hebrews 9:9-10). This, in fact, is why until the Lord Jesus Christ came and died for sin, no believer who died went to Heaven. They were all taken to a special place under the Earth called Paradise or Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:22; 23:43). When our Lord paid the terrible price for sin, however, He took them with Him to Heaven when He ascended to the Father (Ephesians 4:8 ).
The sacrifices were only a statement of Faith in the more important Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus which was to come later. So, unless anyone actually believed that God would send a Savior Who would die for their sins later, killing an animal in a ritualistic way was not going to save them at all. It has always been a question of Faith in God's Substitute, not one of ritual animal killing.
Please feel free to ask any further questions for clarification.
|Re: Bible Scholars, Let's Have You by MuttleyLaff: 10:38am On Jan 15|
joshmoy:The same response is applicable to them as well
joshmoy:I am not trying to dodge your question or answer a question with a question but what did you read towards the end of 1 John 2:2?
joshmoy:You are never going to go wrong from asking questions. Here is a tip though, always ask questions to a void
|Re: Bible Scholars, Let's Have You by Ihedinobi3: 10:48am On Jan 15|
joshmoy:First, please forgive me about the smiley. I often forget that if I don't put a space between 8 and an enclosing bracket, the site will turn it into a smiley. I edited that part of the post to read Ephesians 4:8. That was the proof text.
Next, yes, Paradise is different from Heaven. Paradise is located in Sheol, which is also called Hell or Hades or the Grave in the Bible.
Hell is where all the human dead were taken before the Cross. But it has three compartments. One compartment is Paradise, like we already discussed. Paradise was designed by God to be enjoyable and beautiful and relaxing just like the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2. It existed because until Jesus Christ came and died for sin, no human being was qualified to enter the Presence of God. But since some human beings had believed in God for Salvation, they were no longer to be punished either, so Paradise was where they were kept in waiting until Jesus Christ came and paid for their sins too. As I said, after He did, He took them into the Presence of the Father with Him. So, now, when any believer dies, they don't go to Paradise. Rather, they are taken to Heaven to rest with other departed saints.
The other two compartments are Torments (Luke 16:23) and Tartarus or the Pit or the Abyss (Luke 8:31; Revelation 20:3; Jude 1:6; 2 Peter 2:4). In the former, unbelievers who die are kept in punishment as they wait for the Judgment of the Great White Throne (Revelation 20:12-13). In the latter, rebellious angels who violate the rules of the war between them and God are kept in punishment too until God is pleased to release them for reasons of Judgment too upon the world.
Heaven, on the other hand, also known in the Bible as The Third Heaven is a temporary abode separate from this Universe. God made it in order to separate His Manifest Presence from the Universe after it was corrupted by Satan's rebellion. It also serves as His battle headquarters from where He is resolving the creature rebellion that has corrupted the world He made.
The faithful angels operate from Heaven going back and forth between there and this Universe as they serve God's Purposes. Departed saints rest there and wait for the Return of Jesus Christ, at which time they will be resurrected with new, eternal, powerful bodies with which they will come back for the War of Armageddon at the Second Advent.
As I said, Heaven is temporary. After human history is concluded and all creature rebellion has been resolved, this entire Universe will be destroyed and a new one will be made. Then, God the Father will bring Heaven, that is the New Jerusalem, down to the New Earth so that it becomes the Capital of the New Universe. It is from there that He and the Lamb will reign over all Creation forever.
|Re: Bible Scholars, Let's Have You by Ihedinobi3: 10:54am On Jan 15|
joshmoy:I think that you must have misread me. I did say that the Lord Jesus died for the sins of every human being. Everybody's sins have been paid for so that nobody needs to go to Hell anymore.
All children who have no attained the age of accountability and all insane people who lack the capacity to make moral decisions are automatically saved because Jesus Christ has already paid for their sins.
Those who will be condemned are only those who reject the Sacrifice of Christ and those who, having all the mental resources to accept it, refuse to accept that Sacrifice.
|Re: Bible Scholars, Let's Have You by enilove(m): 9:08pm On Jan 15|
ihidinobi3 , has a answered your questions rightly except the last one regarding "the criteria for Gods judgment for those who died b4 Christ ".
Those that died b4 Jesus came , all went to either hell or a temporary place of rest , pending God's judgement.
Scriptural backings :
Luke 16:22-24 KJV
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
John 5:25,28-29 KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
We may want to argue that some might have died without knowing what is sinful and what is not. This scriptures says :
Romans 2:11-15 KJV
For there is no respect of persons with God.
 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their CONSCIENCE also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
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