LordReed:


I objected to a world of absolutes. I conceive of a world where there is no pain and suffering but not in the absolute sense ie such a world will still have you recoil if your bare foot felt fire while in yours it would not.

Lol. Let me ask; is pain absolute in this world? Lets be sure exactly what we are talking about here.

Because objective qualities are either absolute or they don't exist. There is no such thing as this thing exists but it doesn't exist really.

It is either pain exists or it doesn't.

So lets be sure, what do you mean by "absolute pain"?

johnydon22:
I hear you bro ?, i hear you

John John

Only Amadioha can give us an ideal world

The return of Amadioha!!!

MrPresident1:


John John

Only Amadioha can give us an ideal world

The return of Amadioha!!!

You are correct my guy

johnydon22:
I have heard so many argue that this universe, this world is quite flawed mostly due to the existence of things we may philosophically refer to as Natural evils. Famine, hunger, diseases, dangerous animals, natural disasters, death and what not.

Even though personally i think things we refer to as evil are necessary - Topic for another day.

I'd like to experiment on this a bit, create a hypothetical universe.

Assume you are in the position of an All-powerful entity, you want to create a world, what type of world, what model of world do you imagine right now to be the ideal world?

I think the kind of world where only atheists will be around.

Shepherd00:

I think the kind of world where only atheists will be around.

Really? Why would this world be ideal?

johnydon22:
What does it mean?

Because a world of infinite second chances sounds like a world with eternal life.

You can't get infinite second chances if you don't have infinite life

infinite life exactly... but with pain, regrets, accidents and learning. however there will always be second changes and and infinite advancement to better life.
like playing candy crush and gettin to higher and harder levels with each level getting more and more excited.

johnydon22:
You are correct my guy

Sissy John is afraid of knowledge

johnydon22:
Really? Why would this world be ideal?

because there won't be God to remind you of afterlife, so no talk of sin or Hellfire. You can do as you like and not feel the need to think of retribution.


Only, that world actually existed in some atheists nations and even North Korea and Cuba today. Just check out how people are enjoying life over there.

johnydon22:


Lol. Let me ask; is pain absolute in this world? Lets be sure exactly what we are talking about here.

Because objective qualities are either absolute or they don't exist. There is no such thing as this thing exists but it doesn't exist really.

It is either pain exists or it doesn't.

So lets be sure, what do you mean by "absolute pain"?

Don't misunderstand me, I am not talking of anything called absolute pain. I am referring to the absolute absence of pain. In your world as you described, a person can't be hungry because hunger is pain. In the world I conceive of, every person can be hungry but are totally assured of having a meal the second they want it.

LordReed:


Don't misunderstand me, I am not talking of anything called absolute pain. I am referring to the absolute absence of pain. In your world as you described, a person can't be hungry because hunger is pain. In the world I conceive of, every person can be hungry but are totally assured of having a meal the second they want it.

So, in otherwords, pain will also be present?

MrPresident1:


Sissy John is afraid of knowledge

I'm afraid of weed

frank317:


infinite life exactly... but with pain, regrets, accidents and learning. however there will always be second changes and and infinite advancement to better life.
like playing candy crush and gettin to higher and harder levels with each level getting more and more excited.

So an ideal world is a world where death doesn't exist. Ok.

Shepherd00:

because there won't be God to remind you of afterlife, so no talk of sin or Hellfire. You can do as you like and not feel the need to think of retribution.


Only, that world actually existed in some atheists nations and even North Korea and Cuba today. Just check out how people are enjoying life over there.

Why do you think everyone not believing in God translates to God not existing in an objective sense?

HappyPagan:


Without pain, joy's value drops.

But a painless life will still be sweeter than a life full of pains, no matter what. Those who are in perpetual pain will understand what i'm trying to say. Anyway, there's no ideal life that can be perfect.

johnydon22:
So, in otherwords, pain will also be present?

Not as something you "suffer". For instance, you are hungry and the food is right at your beck and call .

johnydon22:
So, the world we live in now is already as good as it can get?

I wouldn't know johnydon22. I know pockets of it are better than most and some are worst, but I'm a realist, and limited to my own might and lack experience creating an worlds. Iean, if I were omniscient, why would I bother creating humans, to start with? As pieces on my chessboard?. To watch them stumble about for the fun off it? Wouldn't that make me omnibad and omnievil? I doubt you had that in mind.

So, without limitations, I'd send all human beings to heaven! They all want to go there anyway so they can all just go already and leave my perfect very interesting earth alone to its earthquakes and thunders and tsunamis and all. Stupid people who think they are the only things I created and can't consider that is how I have created earth to give praise to me it's maker! Hopefully, the new spirit I put in you all on the way to heaven will make you behave better to one another or I'm sending you all to hell!

I think I'm just no good with omniscience, me and my vast limitations. I'm a realist, see, so my ideal can't but be tempered by reality. And besides, I started with the world as it is and not the clean slate omnis have. Within those limitations though, give me free education for all at reputable uni level and libraries every two streets and the world would be as perfect as can be, for me.

johnydon22:
Why do you think everyone not believing in God translates to God not existing in an objective sense?

Not believing in God is not the same as God does not exist.

If I don't believe in Jesus, I may believe in Allah or Amadioha or Ogun. it's the same as being an atheist.

I talked about a world where God didn't exist so you guys can have a clear conscience to be as immoral as you can get.

johnydon22:


So an ideal world is a world where death doesn't exist. Ok.

This ideal world I talk about might or might not have death in it.

However if there is death it will not be an issue because u can start afresh from where u made the mistake that led to ur death. It will be all about being a better person with reward. And u could only lose reward or points if u die but could gain points or reward if u live for a longer time.
Dying and coming back makes u lose points.
Points here could be in form of riches or human gifts

budaatum:

My concern would not be the natural factors since I've created living things imbued with an ability to "be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth".

If my being was Yahwehlike, I'd just send them a better teacher, most likely my own self taught son and other teachers, to teach them to do it better, except, done that already. If only I had more than one son, I'd likely send him now, though I'd prefer if she were a daughter so she can be called my only begotten and teach science (except, already done that too!).

Oh, I love you.

HappyPagan:


Without pain, joy's value drops.

Is Dangote's joy less valuable than a pauper's joy?

LordReed:


Is Dangote's joy less valuable than a pauper's joy?

How do you measure? Can you measure one's sadness too?

HappyPagan:

How do you measure? Can you measure one's sadness too?

Well, you seem to be able to since you know that joy is less valuable without pain.

LordReed:


Well, you seem to be able to since you know that joy is less valuable without pain.

Oh no, you misunderstand me.

I did not say there is great joy or less joy, for how can one quantify that which is subjective. Rather, I'm considering two distinct subjective experiences : pain and joy.

In a world without pain, what would cause joy? Imagine playing a football match in which no side can lose... Would results have meaning?

HappyPagan:

Oh no, you misunderstand me.

I did not say there is great joy or less joy, for how can one quantify that which is subjective. Rather, I'm considering two distinct subjective experiences : pain and joy.

In a world without pain, what would cause joy? Imagine playing a football match in which no side can lose... Would results have meaning?

Do you need to taste shit to know what sugar tastes like or vice versa? If you've never tasted shit will you still know and appreciate sugar?

LordReed:


Do you need to taste shit to know what sugar tastes like or vice versa? If you've never tasted shit will you still know and appreciate sugar?

Actually poo isn't the opposite of sweetness.

Bitter is.

And yes, without bitter or sour taste, sweetness becomes vaguely meaningless.

If everything is special, nothing is special.

LordReed:

Not as something you "suffer". For instance, you are hungry and the food is right at your beck and call .

So, the problem isn't that you don't have innate desires you can suffer from but the presence of solution to these problems?

Still, negativity remains intact na.

Isn't the argument that; positive things don't make sense if the negative ones don't exist?

johnydon22:
Actually poo isn't the opposite of sweetness.

Bitter is.

And yes, without bitter or sour taste, sweetness becomes vaguely meaningless.

If everything is special, nothing is special.

Is air meaningless?

johnydon22:


So, the problem isn't that you don't have innate desires you can suffer from but the presence of solution to these problems?

Still, negativity remains intact na.

Isn't the argument that; positive things don't make sense if the negative ones don't exist?

Thats why you need to understand what I was objecting to. I was objecting to absolute positions like absolutely no pain which is why I said your painless world is essentially dead.

LordReed:


Is air meaningless?

No. So?

johnydon22:
No. So?

We don't value things solely based off of contrast with their lack but rather with their utility to us. Sugar remains sweet whether bitterness exists or not. Also not sweet is not equal to bitter so even if bitterness didn't exist sweet will still have value because you can still distinguish it from not sweet.

This is my position, you do not need the extremes, the absolute absences to create value for what is. There are certain things that exist that we do not know about but it doesn't stop us from creating value for the things that we do know exist.

LordReed:


We don't value things solely based off of contrast with their lack but rather with their utility to us. Sugar remains sweet whether bitterness exists or not. Also not sweet is not equal to bitter so even if bitterness didn't exist sweet will still have value because you can still distinguish it from not sweet.

This is my position, you do not need the extremes, the absolute absences to create value for what is. There are certain things that exist that we do not know about but it doesn't stop us from creating value for the things that we do know exist.

lol. Actually we do value it due to the fact we know of what it would be like without it.

If we lived in a world where we would be ok still if air ceased, then our value of it diminishes.

But for us, we know lack of air entails suffocating and ultimately death hence our value of it - Negativity and positivity give meaning to each other.

Savvy?

johnydon22:
I have heard so many argue that this universe, this world is quite flawed mostly due to the existence of things we may philosophically refer to as Natural evils. Famine, hunger, diseases, dangerous animals, natural disasters, death and what not.

Even though personally i think things we refer to as evil are necessary - Topic for another day.

I'd like to experiment on this a bit, create a hypothetical universe.

Assume you are in the position of an All-powerful entity, you want to create a world, what type of world, what model of world do you imagine right now to be the ideal world?

A world where u can't hurt or harm others, a world without hunger where u would eat just for the taste, a world where pain will stop immediately u want it to, a world where everyone is equal in everything, both in height, strength, wisdom and every other thing, a world where women don't menstruate, a world where nothing ever goes wrong, a perfect world.