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Ok. Fine. So Your God Exists! But Wait... - Religion - Nairaland

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Ok. Fine. So Your God Exists! But Wait... by TheArranger: 1:45pm On Jun 02
For a moment, let's skip the whole "does god exist" question. In this hypothetical, god exists. There is still no reason to believe that Christianity is the correct take on this god rather than Islam or Judaism, or that Shintoism is the correct one rather than the ancient Greek or Norse pantheons, or that Hinduism is the correct one rather than Zoroastrianism, etc. Hell, why aren't the Nine Divines the true gods? If I choose to believe that, why am I wrong?

There is just no way to prove that your version is the correct take. You're not just arguing against atheists, you're also arguing against every other religion in human history. And I don't think there are ways to debunk all of these other religions without invoking arguments that apply to your own just as much.

The only reason you believe in your religion above all others, 99% of the time, is because of the religious beliefs of your parents or the culture in which you live. If you were raised nonreligious and later became a Christian, it's probably because you live in a majority Christian culture. It's not because you sat down, evaluated every other religion, and decided yours was the correct one.

I don't believe this is an obstacle theists can adequately overcome for their respective religions, but I am open to a debate.

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Re: Ok. Fine. So Your God Exists! But Wait... by St1ckman: 2:08pm On Jun 02
So...

Just taking it mathematically you get 1/x probability of being correct and (x-1)/x chance of being wrong. Where x is the number of religions including strong atheism.

Now lets look at the probability of agnosticism and weak atheist. Because they do not make a choice their probability of being correct is 0/x or 0%.

This makes weak atheism and agnosticism always wrong. This makes any religion including strong atheism an infinitely better choice.
Re: Ok. Fine. So Your God Exists! But Wait... by phelonrays: 2:23pm On Jun 02
The only reason you believe in your religion above all others, 99% of the time, is because of the religious beliefs of your parents or the culture in which you live. If you were raised nonreligious and later became a Christian, it's probably because you live in a majority Christian culture. It's not because you sat down, evaluated every other religion, and decided yours was the correct one.

I once thought...... had it been my parents were Buddhist [those who bow for Buddha as their God]...Same would I........

I think this religion of a thing....parent has a massive influence on their children more than the society....

I don't criticize other religions or their worshippers cause I have come to know that it's their parent who lays it down to them and not the other way round......

I pukes when I see people [majorly my Christian brothers] criticise and condemn other religions as if they were the one who actually mould the God we are worshipping....

it's saddening how religious fanatics judge those from the other divide undecided

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Re: Ok. Fine. So Your God Exists! But Wait... by GodHead85: 2:52pm On Jun 02
@OP most of what you say is true but it would depend on how the "proof" manifested itself, and you'd guarantee the elimination of at least some religions in any case.

Let's say our proof of God is the sort of classic one: A booming voice from the sky yells across the world "ya yeet, it's me, ya boi, God Almighty. The one, the only, there's no other ones". A clever scientist somewhere invents some sort of machine that somehow proves that this was in fact a divine being and not just an alien with an oversized loudspeaker. He also confirms that God was telling the truth - there are no other divine blokes.

With this in mind, we eliminate polytheism. Meanwhile, the Abrahamic religions end up no clearer at all as to which one of them was actually correct. Is God trinitarian? Was Muhammad actually a real prophet? Who knows?

Alternatively, our magical hypothetical scientist confirms that it's a God and not an alien, but can't verify whether other divine beings exist. Nobody really knows anything then and very few subsets of belief are eliminated.

But what if our proof of God was some form of evidence that definitively proved that the events of the Old Testament happened, and that Jesus did indeed die and and rise again, and in doing so saved us from sin? In such a case, you've got little room for doubt: Christianity is the one true religion and all that's left to be divided over is your denomination. In theory, if we some kind of direct line to our trinitarian sky daddy, we could ask Him and ascertain the valid denomination(s) too.

The long and short of it is that it depends on the kind of proof. We can apply your argument to the real world in some ways:
Some people convert upon believing they felt the presence of God, or believing they witnessed a miracle. Their witnessing such an event does not actually prove their specific denomination is correct. However, if prove of God came about it may or may not prove them entirely right anyway, depending on the type of proof.

To summarize, the way in which God's existence was proved would vastly change how much world religions could or could not assert in this sort of scenario.
Re: Ok. Fine. So Your God Exists! But Wait... by TheArranger: 3:07pm On Jun 02
St1ckman:
So...

Just taking it mathematically you get 1/x probability of being correct and (x-1)/x chance of being wrong. Where x is the number of religions including strong atheism.

Now lets look at the probability of agnosticism and weak atheist. Because they do not make a choice their probability of being correct is 0/x or 0%.
Well, you're just bad at... everything that's in your comment.

Claim: I have a diamond.

I have not provided any evidence that I have a diamond or anything to suggest that I do or do not have the means or reasons to have a diamond.

Possible positions:
1. "That's false." - unjustified - no reason to believe I don't have a diamond.

2. "That's true." - unjustified - no reason to believe I do have a diamond.

3. "I don't believe you do have a diamond." - justified - no evidence has been presented, no reason to adopt this belief.

4. "I don't believe you don't have a diamond." - justified - no evidence has been presented, no reason to adopt this belief.

(Side note: In actuality, these positions are inter-related: If 1 then 3, if 2 then 4, else 3 and 4.). Your "argument" that an independent party should immediately adopt either the belief that I have a diamond, or the belief that I do not have a diamond, without any justification, is ridiculous.
As for being wrong? Sorry, but the people who hold position 3 and 4 are 100% correct. They are, in fact, not justified in holding position 1 or 2.

This makes any religion including strong atheism
Excuse me? Could you show me strong atheism's scripture?
Maybe you can enlighten me regarding some of strong atheism's rituals and practices? Can I meditate to commune spiritually with strong atheism's lack of theistic entities?

"Religion" is a word that is ill-defined, but NONE of its potential definitions apply to the belief in the non-existence of gods.

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Re: Ok. Fine. So Your God Exists! But Wait... by JujuSugar(f): 3:19pm On Jun 02
St1ckman:
So...

Just taking it mathematically you get 1/x probability of being correct and (x-1)/x chance of being wrong. Where x is the number of religions including strong atheism.

Now lets look at the probability of agnosticism and weak atheist. Because they do not make a choice their probability of being correct is 0/x or 0%.

This makes weak atheism and agnosticism always wrong. This makes any religion including strong atheism an infinitely better choice.
Oga that's not how mathematics works. The probability of something being correct is not dependent on it being a choice we can make in general. Not to mention that not all religions have equal chance of being correct.

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Re: Ok. Fine. So Your God Exists! But Wait... by St1ckman: 3:34pm On Jun 02
TheArranger:

Well, you're just bad at... everything that's in your comment.

Claim: I have a diamond.

I have not provided any evidence that I have a diamond or anything to suggest that I do or do not have the means or reasons to have a diamond.

Possible positions:
1. "That's false." - unjustified - no reason to believe I don't have a diamond.

2. "That's true." - unjustified - no reason to believe I do have a diamond.

3. "I don't believe you do have a diamond." - justified - no evidence has been presented, no reason to adopt this belief.

4. "I don't believe you don't have a diamond." - justified - no evidence has been presented, no reason to adopt this belief.
You forgot that the premise from the OP opens with...
"For a moment, let's skip the whole "does god exist" question."
This makes most of your point invalid.

Second I gave a mathematically sound argument and you respond with an analogy. This is not a rebuttal for my position. Please respond with a rebuttal to my position.

Your "argument" that an independent party should immediately adopt either the belief that I have a diamond, or the belief that I do not have a diamond, without any justification, is ridiculous.
This is not my position and is an attempt to strawman me.

As for being wrong? Sorry, but the people who hold position 3 and 4 are 100% correct. They are, in fact, not justified in holding position 1 or 2.
I do not follow where this statement is logically sound. It jumps to an assumption then asserts your position is correct. This is not a logical argument.

Excuse me? Could you show me strong atheism's scripture?
I never said strong atheism was a religion. It is a position with a description of deity, there is absolutely none. Because this is a position which gives a description of deity I included it with the other positions that give an example of their positions because a choice has been made.
Agnosticism and weak atheist do not make a claim on their position. Therefore a choice is not made. This makes their positions invalid. They will always be incorrect.

Let me explain it to you this way because you seem to have trouble with the equations: The question of deity has been proposed with multiple choice answers.

All other positions choose an option that best describes their positions. Agnostics and weak atheist leave the question blank. This is why they are always wrong.
Re: Ok. Fine. So Your God Exists! But Wait... by St1ckman: 3:41pm On Jun 02
JujuSugar:

Oga that's not how mathematics works. The probability of something being correct is not dependent on it being a choice we can make in general.
Wonderful! So you've disproved every multiple choice test ever! Lol! grin

Not to mention that not all religions have equal chance of being correct.
Speculation. I need evidence of this. My calculations are based on an equal probability of each description of deity to be correct because there is no evidence of any being correct or incorrect.
Re: Ok. Fine. So Your God Exists! But Wait... by JujuSugar(f): 3:48pm On Jun 02
St1ckman:

Wonderful! So you've disproved every multiple choice test ever! Lol! grin


Speculation. I need evidence of this. My calculations are based on an equal probability of each description of deity to be correct because there is no evidence of any being correct or incorrect.
Somethings probability is based on the likelihood of it happening. Nothing else. Whether it is technically a choice or a default position, or a lack of making a choice etc. doesn't change that.
Re: Ok. Fine. So Your God Exists! But Wait... by St1ckman: 4:52pm On Jun 02
JujuSugar:

Somethings probability is based on the likelihood of it happening. Nothing else. Whether it is technically a choice or a default position, or a lack of making a choice etc. doesn't change that.
The probability of getting the correct answer without answering the question is 0
Re: Ok. Fine. So Your God Exists! But Wait... by power50: 5:12pm On Jun 02
Do you own a church? List your church on Nigerian church directory https://www.naijachurches.com.ng/
Re: Ok. Fine. So Your God Exists! But Wait... by jesusjnr(m): 4:47pm On Jun 12
The problem with probability is that it is a function of ignorance.

In other words it's only when the lack of knowledge exists, that probability becomes relevant.

So it is only relevant to those who lack knowledge, for then the next best thing is probability.

But the thing with probability is that it could be very deceptive and dicey, for something that has a 0.0000001 chance of happening under probability, could be bound to happen, that is have a 100% chance with knowledge.

And something that has a 0.9 chance of happening under probability could have a 0% chance with knowledge.

So in the presence of knowledge and to those who know the Truth, probability holds no significance, because probability could only be useful in the absence of knowledge.

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