CanadaOrBust:


Stop splitting hairs. us SOVEREIGN debt is 22T. China is owed 1.12T . Japan is your owed 1.08T
Those are the facts. Your statement was wrong. Accept it and move on

Rather rich from the dude LITERALLY arguing that not all debt is debt...

Meanwhile, I would advise you to look at the link posted by the other discussant...
There’s NO argument that China is the US’s biggest foreign debtor, so who’s “splitting hairs” here?
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CanadaOrBust:

But I just demonstrated to u that u r wrong! Not all debts mean you owe money. Not all debt is truly debt. How stubborn can a guy be!

Did you actually read what you just wrote?

If something’s NOT “truly” debt, then it’s NOT debt at all.
It’s kinda like pregnancy, if you are not “truly” pregnant, you are not pregnant!

PS: And just in case it actually needed any clarification...
Money (including US dollar bills) is LEGAL TENDER, not debt. SMH
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CanadaOrBust:


You obviously missed this below previously posted. (Note that those US treasury notes are the safest of investments and the world can’t get enough of them)

You clearly don’t understand US debt.

Unlike Africa countries, US don’t go and borrow money, all US debts are paper debt.

US simply create treasury notes, then go to the market and sell the notes. Note holders get paid interest and when they are tired of holding the notes, they go into the same market and sell them to another individual and the price of the note at each varies depending on the strength of US economy and other external factors.

Africa countries borrow money with stringent requirements and conditions and also consequences if they don’t pay back as agreed..
9jarealist, derevofpeace

Thanks for the explanation. Now I understand, I have always wondered, how US could owe that much.

Jayess:

Thanks for the explanation. Now I understand, I have always wondered, how US could owe that much.

I strongly advise you do more research into this. If US can print money shouldn't you wonder why the word "debt" would apply in the first place?

Would you owe anyone if you had a money printer?

Jayess:

Thanks for the explanation. Now I understand, I have always wondered, how US could owe that much.

U r welcome.
What people like 9jarealist don’t understand is that the 1000 naira note u have in your pocket is the same as the US paper China has - it is a promise (an IOU) by the government to pay you N1000. But no one ever returns the N1000 notes to the govt because there are always other people willing to take it from you in exchange for goods or services.

budaatum:

I strongly advise you do more research into this. If US can print money shouldn't you wonder why the word "debt" would apply in the first place?

Would you owe anyone if you had a money printer?

The money u have in your pocket is also debt. See above. There is debt, then there is “debt”.

Jayess:

Thanks for the explanation. Now I understand, I have always wondered, how US could owe that much.

CanadaOrBust:

U r welcome.
What people like 9jarealist don’t understand is that the 1000 naira note u have in your pocket is the same as the US paper China has - it is a promise (an IOU) by the government to pay you N1000. But no one ever returns the N1000 notes to the govt because there are always other people willing to take it from you in exchange for goods or services.

Nope! It is most definitely NOT the same...

What people like CanadaOrBust do not understand is, that unlike the N1000 note you have in your pocket, US treasury bills (he can call it “paper” all he wants as if it’s fungible) have to be REDEEMED! In other words, not substantively unlike the debt that African countries take on, the principal and the interest (coupon) has to be repaid according to specifically provided terms and conditions, including timelines. The fact that US treasuries are virtually (emphasis on virtually) risk-free does NOT render them as non-debt but merely is reflected in the coupon/yield and such other terms and conditions of issuance. Meanwhile, US treasuries are used to finance govt expenditure - just like African govts debt.
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9jaRealist:



Nope! It is most definitely NOT the same...

What people like CanadaOrBust do not understand is, that unlike the N1000 note you have in your pocket, US treasury bills (he can call it “paper” all he wants as if it’s fungible) have to be REDEEMED! In other words, not substantively unlike the debt that African countries take on, the principal and the interest (coupon) has to be repaid according to specifically provided terms and conditions, including timelines. The fact that US treasuries are virtually (emphasis on virtually) risk-free does NOT render them as non-debt but merely is reflected in the coupon/yield and such other terms and conditions of issuance. Meanwhile, US treasuries are used to finance govt expenditure - just like African govts debt.
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U r talking like mumu. IT IS PAPER! Just like the N1000 note in your pocket. It is also “debt” the way the money in your pocket is debt. The govt prints worthless paper acknowledging they owe you N1000. They exchange it for your real N1000 worth of goods and services. They are not begging u to take it or keep it because someone else will take it. Same situation between US and China.
That trillion $ “debt” is actually more binding on China than US because a weaker dollar will hurt China much more than it hurts US.
STOP ARGUING NONESENSE!

CanadaOrBust:


The money u have in your pocket is also debt. See above. There is debt, then there is “debt”.

No it isn't! Not to me who the money is in my pocket. Its mine. I can spend it, give it away, burn it, save it, and no one can claim I owe it to them!

CanadaOrBust:


U r talking like mumu. IT IS PAPER! Just like the N1000 note in your pocket. It is also “debt” the way the money in your pocket is debt. The govt prints worthless paper acknowledging they owe you N1000. They exchange it for your real N1000 worth of goods and services. They are not begging u to take it or keep it because someone else will take it. Same situation between US and China.
That trillion $ “debt” is actually more binding on China than US because a weaker dollar will hurt China much more than it hurts US.
STOP ARGUING NONESENSE!

The fact that there are others willing to take on the debt does not mean it isn't debt as denoted by the use of the word "loan" in your attached!

CanadaOrBust:


U r talking like mumu. IT IS PAPER! Just like the N1000 note in your pocket. It is also “debt” the way the money in your pocket is debt. The govt prints worthless paper acknowledging they owe you N1000. They exchange it for your real N1000 worth of goods and services. They are not begging u to take it or keep it because someone else will take it. Same situation between US and China.
That trillion $ “debt” is actually more binding on China than US because a weaker dollar will hurt China much more than it hurts US.
STOP ARGUING NONESENSE!

A little education can be worse than none at all...

First, you seem at sea here, and thus proceed to chase the shadow of whether or not treasury bills and N1000 are both “paper” (presumably meaning both are issued in paper form, which one supposes this would exclude coins from your tortured “money is debt” illogicality) instead of the substance that treasury bills are NOT like N1000 bills because the former actually has to be REPAID with interest as per terms/conditions.

Meanwhile, the govt has NEVER given me (nor tens of millions of Nigerians) N1000 worth of goods and services for the N1000 bill we have, because a N1000 is not (and has never been) a debt by the government to the holder (and now I see that “debt” is in quotes apparently for cheap polemic flexibility ). A N1000 note is LEGAL TENDER (a concept you seem befuddled by), not debt. Repeat that 1000 times.
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budaatum:

The fact that there are others willing to take on the debt does not mean it isn't debt as denoted by the use of the word "loan" in your attached!

The dude is now digging up and elevating partisan opinion as if that changes the basic underlying FACTS...
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9jaRealist:


The dude is now digging up and elevating partisan opinion as if that changes the basic underlying FACTS...
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imagine! He says "IT IS PAPER! Just like the N1000 note in your pocket." As if I can claim any odd piece of paper is a ₦1000 note! Yet, I'm certain he'd claim Nigerian T-Bills are debt.

That's what it must be, "partisan opinion". It irks me that he doesn't mind misleading the lesser informed.

9jaRealist:


A little education can be worse than none at all...

First, you seem at sea here, and thus proceed to chase the shadow of whether or not treasury bills and N1000 are both “paper” (presumably meaning both are issued in paper form, which one supposes this would exclude coins from your tortured “money is debt” illogicality) instead of the substance that treasury bills are NOT like N1000 bills because the former actually has to be REPAID with interest as per terms/conditions.

Meanwhile, the govt has NEVER given me (nor tens of millions of Nigerians) N1000 worth of goods and services for the N1000 bill we have, because a N1000 is not (and has never been) a debt by the government to the holder (and now I see that “debt” is in quotes apparently for cheap polemic flexibility ). A N1000 note is LEGAL TENDER (a concept you seem befuddled by), not debt. Repeat that 1000 times.
>

WHAT’S WRONG WITH THIS GUY??!! I thought he has given up!!
Guy, do you even have google or u just say stuff. Do u even read the screenshots I post?
MONEY IS AN IOU!!! It is all over the internet. Google is available to everyone! Money is a type of iou that the govt will recognize as legal tender.
And (I’m tempted to call u mumu) I state things in a simplified way or I’ll have to write a book.
The way US owes China is about the same way Nigerian govt owes Dangote because he has piles of Naira.

Look, I’m done with you. I don’t think you have google but you have my screenshots including the one below. Read them. Educate yourself.
Good luck.

budaatum:

imagine! He says "IT IS PAPER! Just like the N1000 note in your pocket." As if I can claim any odd piece of paper is a ₦1000 note! Yet, I'm certain he'd claim Nigerian T-Bills are debt.

That's what it must be, "partisan opinion". It irks me that he doesn't mind misleading the lesser informed.

Actually you are the one misleading people by making it seem USA owes China regular debt (the 9jarealist guy actually said the debt "makes US China's bitch". The canadaorbust guy is right - read his posts and screenshots. Just like money, countries/people are ready to snap up US Tbills (BTW it is paper) from China. US is not in any way beholden to China because of them just as USA is not belden to anyone simply because they have a trillion US dollars.

PoliteActivist:


Actually you are the one misleading people by making it seem USA owes China regular debt (the 9jarealist guy actually said the debt "makes US China's bitch". The canadaorbust guy is right - read his posts and screenshots. Just like money, countries/people are ready to snap up US Tbills (BTW it is paper) from China. US is not in any way beholden to China because of them just as USA is not belden to anyone simply because they have a trillion US dollars.

Thank you! Deceiving ignorant people - US is China’s bitch, China owns US. When nothing could be further from the truth. China HAS TO hold unto those papers because they desperately need the dollar to stay strong and that’s one way of having some control over that.
Notice he is no longer arguing that China owns 30% of US national debt. At least he has conceded that. Very stubborn guy

PoliteActivist:

Actually you are the one misleading people by making it seem USA owes China regular debt (the 9jarealist guy actually said the debt "makes US China's bitch". The canadaorbust guy is right - read his posts and screenshots. Just like money, countries/people are ready to snap up US Tbills (BTW it is paper) from China. US is not in any way beholden to China because of them just as USA is not belden to anyone simply because they have a trillion US dollars.

Dude, if you are you going to quote me do so in context...
Treasury bills are NOT not “paper” like your N1000 bill because unlike that bill it has to be repaid by a date certain (with interest).

Nonetheless, if we are going to ignore the SUBSTANCE of the discourse and keep chasing around substantively-meaningless shadows, suffice it to point out that paper certificates are NO longer issued for US treasury bills, but rather all sales and purchases are made in electronic book-entry form. Accordingly, it is not even technically nor grammatically accurate to posit that US treasury bills are “paper”! LMAO!

Meanwhile, the genesis of this line of discourse is my affirmation (and continued reaffirmation) that while debt may come in different forms (which by definition includes different terms/conditions and even risk levels), debt is debt - a legal obligation to repay money/credit. It is frankly rather silly to continue to belabor the drivel that just because US treasury bills are attractive, they are somehow NOT “truly” debt.

Finally, and yet again, money is legal tender NOT debt. When you pay money for a hotdog you are BUYING that hotdog, not retrieving a previously owed legal obligation. The nonsense excerpt that CanadaOrBust dug up from Google and darkened these pages with does not even support that tortured “money is debt” drivel, but I am beginning to suspect that he doesn’t quite grasp the import of what he’s reading.
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CanadaOrBust:

WHAT’S WRONG WITH THIS GUY??!! I thought he has given up!!
Guy, do you even have google or u just say stuff. Do u even read the screenshots I post?
MONEY IS AN IOU!!! It is all over the internet. Google is available to everyone! Money is a type of iou that the govt will recognize as legal tender.
And (I’m tempted to call u mumu) I state things in a simplified way or I’ll have to write a book.
The way US owes China is about the same way Nigerian govt owes Dangote because he has piles of Naira.

Look, I’m done with you. I don’t think you have google but you have my screenshots including the one below. Read them. Educate yourself.
Good luck.

Keep trying to ignore FACTS and keep digging up crackpot OPINIONS...
>

PoliteActivist:

Actually you are the one misleading people by making it seem USA owes China regular debt (the 9jarealist guy actually said the debt "makes US China's bitch". The canadaorbust guy is right - read his posts and screenshots. Just like money, countries/people are ready to snap up US Tbills (BTW it is paper) from China. US is not in any way beholden to China because of them just as USA is not belden to anyone simply because they have a trillion US dollars.

Do not know you from a can of paint, but...
I often loathe intellectually dishonest folk because they more often than not also turn out to be personally dishonest.

So why not put the excerpt that you selectively quoted (and dishonestly characterized) in context (as fully shown below)? Because if you concur with the premise that I was actually DISPUTING that “a borrower will always be a slave to the lender”, then by definition you are actually AGREEING that the US (borrower) will always be a slave to China (lender), which is way worse than just being a b*tch. SMDH

bid4rich:
That is the difference between the country that is thinking (China) and the one that is not thinking (Nigeria/Africa)

A borrower will always be a slave to the lender

9jaRealist:

China holds almost 30% of US foreign debt...
By your analogy that makes the US China’s b*tch!
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.

Awer

Poor China

9jaRealist:
China holds almost 30% of US foreign debt...
By your analogy that makes the US China’s b*tch! grin

He thinks nobody will notice he changed “sovereign” to “foreign”. If a guy can be so dishonest in a faceless internet forum, the kind of lies he’d be telling in real life!!

Here the true quote;

China’s debt threatens world economy.
Remember China is very secretive and dishonest. We are only going by what they admit to.
(Also see my prior screenshots)

PoliteActivist:


Actually you are the one misleading people by making it seem USA owes China regular debt (the 9jarealist guy actually said the debt "makes US China's bitch". The canadaorbust guy is right - read his posts and screenshots. Just like money, countries/people are ready to snap up US Tbills (BTW it is paper) from China. US is not in any way beholden to China because of them just as USA is not belden to anyone simply because they have a trillion US dollars.

I love the way you feel the need to qualify it as "regular debt", a qualification I in no way added myself, so, perhaps you'd accept that it is "debt", as in "money owed"? No one said anything about being "beholden", though with Trump trying very hard to reduce the trade deficit (more indebtedness!) with China, I'd say, "beholden" is on the mind of some.

CanadaOrBust:
China’s debt threatens world economy.
Remember China is very secretive and dishonest. We are only going by what they admit to.
(Also see my prior screenshots)

So "China's debt" is debt and not "paper", but US debt is just "paper" and not even money?

The U.S. debt to China is $1.11 trillion as of April 2019. That's 27% of the $4.06 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries. The rest of the $22 trillion national debt is owned by either the American people or by the U.S. government itself.

China has the greatest amount of U.S. debt held by a foreign country. Japan comes second at $1.06 trillion. It's followed by Brazil at $307 billion, the United Kingdom at $301 billion and Ireland at $270 billion.

China is more than happy to own almost a fifth of the U.S. debt owned by foreigners. Owning U.S. Treasury notes helps China's economy grow. It keeps the yuan weak relative to the dollar. As a result, Chinese exports are less expensive than U.S. products. China's highest priority is creating enough jobs for its 1.4 billion people.

The United States allowed China to become one of its biggest bankers because Americans enjoy low consumer prices. Selling debt to China pays for federal spending that spurs U.S. economic growth. It also keeps U.S. interest rates low. But China's ownership of the U.S. debt is shifting the economic balance of power in its favor.

US Debt to China, How Much It Is, Reasons Why, and What If China Sells

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQWMd_NPSBA

CanadaOrBust:


Thank you! Deceiving ignorant people - US is China’s bitch, China owns US. When nothing could be further from the truth. China HAS TO hold unto those papers because they desperately need the dollar to stay strong and that’s one way of having some control over that.
Notice he is no longer arguing that China owns 30% of US national debt. At least he has conceded that. Very stubborn guy

Wow!! I never even knew that China and Japan has ANY debt! When their debt posture is even worse than that of USA! So why all the noise?! Thanks for the eye-opener bro.