afrodoc2:
Wetin be all this VMAs wey Nihilist and A40 dey talk? Abeg make una no cause confusion here o

To the argument, Pep is a very good coach but his achievements have led to him being vastly overrated .
If you give Alex Ferguson or Ottmar Hitzfeld or the young Arrigo Sacchi that Barca team (with Messi,Xavi,Iniesta and Busquets all together and all at their peaks supported at different times by Zlatan,Henry,Ronaldinho and Etoo) those other coaches would have done the same or even more. Just my personal opinion

This was my first post on the issue....notice I didn't say Sam allardyce or Sunday oliseh

Nihilist:

Please don't dumb this discussion down by focusing on minor points/semantics

The only logical inference we can draw your post is that the difference between Genius and Great Coach is the the Super Cup, which in itself is a rather stuppid thing to imply

The entire point of this discussion is to show that Pep's success has been more or less replicated 3 successive managers without a previous history of winning.


If a dead coach, a coach lacking experience, and a donkey can all record successes with the same team at first attempt, then where is the proof that Pep is special?

Especially when he can't seem to replacate his success outside Barca?

Jose won UCL with Porto, went to Inter and won it again. After he left neither of those teams have won it again.

Pep won UCL with Barca. After he left, he can't win it again. Yet Barca continues to win UCL in Pep's absence.

So what's special about Pep?

It's unfortunate if you felt my emphasis on the sextuple or in calling Pep a genius and Enrique a great coach was based on semantics.

What I would rather term as equally stuppid will be the notion that Tito winning just a league title, Tata winning nothing, and Enrique winning 5 out of 6 trophies is synonymous with replicating Pep's success. It is also superficial.

That Dead Cockroach won a league title when the Almighty Mou went trophyless in the same season with RM. So maybe that Dead Roach, is better than Mou?

If Pep breaking Jupp's record of winning the league with 7 games to go and adding the DFB-Pokal to it in his first season as well as playing a UCL semi-final is not him replicating some of his success at Barca, then I am lost for words.

Mou deserves his credit for winning the UCL with Porto and Inter, and whether another coach will replicate his success there is time based. Since Pep left Barca, they have won the UCL just once- last year, which means it is a stretch to say Barca continueS (now employing semantics)to win in his absence except you let me borrow from your school of reasoning and say that since RDM won a UCL with CFC (what Mou couldn't do) then every other achievement Mou had with Chelsea could easily be replicated.

afrodoc2:


Why did Capello and Sacchi and Luis Enrique struggle without stars ?

Those players you called stars most were not stars before they met Pep. Xavi was said to be too slow and to tiny yo play midfield, Busquets wasnt the typical DM and Messi improved greatly after meeting him

Luis Enrique got an all star team, Sacchi got an all star team

raumdeuter:


Jose went to Madrid couldnt win, after he left they won

Jose went to Chelsea couldnt even make a final after he left they made a final

Don't dumb it down please.

Jose didn't have the strongest team in the world at his disposal.

The fact remains that Jose won domestic trophies in Spain and England with teams that weren't the overwhelming favourites for the title.

Barca and Bayern are expected to do a domestic sweep, expectations which are rooted in the facts that they are the best teams in their leagues.

When Pep has had to face opposition where he didn't have control of the overwhelming favourites for the title, he had failed...unlike Jose

So why is Pep special?

Nihilist:
Bingo!

Tito Vilanova was in and out of hospital and was away for athe least 6 weeks and still won the league. Tata Martino was allegedly handpicked by Messi.

When the players are the ones picking the Manager, we have to ask if the manager is even needed at all, especially when Said manager is being feted as a tactical genius

I doubt anyone has argued player quality isnt more imprtant than coaching. Its like F1 Is the quality of vehicle not more important than the driver?

So why do they give someone the F1 champion of the world?

After Pep Barca hasnt met the standard of Pep.

Pep after 4 yrs is still the gold standard for barcelona and the whole world

Teams are trying to mould their team to play like Pep of 2009 and not like Mourinho of 2010, 2013, 2012 or 2015

raumdeuter:


My point is it takes a genius to devise a play pattern that is so dominant that people talk about it for ages.

Pep's Barca is the standard for all football teams

Inter won the CL, no one except Inter fans remember anything about them and how they play, Chelsea won I am sure no one wants to play like they did to win.

If a BMW Audi Mercedes are in a race what would determine the winner? The quality of the driver I presume

Going into the 2009 season, No one would rate barca as top seed to win most likely they might not even be top 5. vs Fergie's Man Utd they wouldnt be overwhelming favourites to win and its not like Fergie is a chump coaching Hannover either

You can tell this to those too young to remember 2009 Dayo.
That 2008 semi final was so tight and we had to play nearly perfect football to scrape through, that Barca team in 09 was surely top 5 and I was full of trepidation before the final

Nihilist:
Don't dumb it down please.
Jose didn't have the strongest team in the world at his disposal.
The fact remains that Jose won domestic trophies in Spain and England with teams that weren't the overwhelming favourites for the title.
Barca and Bayern are expected to do a domestic sweep, expectations which are rooted in the facts that they are the best teams in their leagues.
When Pep has had to face opposition where he didn't have control of the overwhelming favourites for the title, he had failed...unlike Jose
So why is Pep special?

Between 2004 and 2007 How many teams were stronger than Mourinhos Chelsea

between 2011 and 2013 how many teams were stronger than Mourinhos Madrid

No one expected Barca of 2009 who have finished trophyless 18points behind league leaders and sold their superstars to make a domestic sweep

Chelsea was favourite for every title in England from 2005-07 they were favoirite to win in 2015, Inter was favourite to win the Serie A every season Mourinho was there

you can disprove any of these assertions

Nihilist:
Sebod thank you, you have spoken well.

I think I already countered all those points though...

Yea, just seeing that you guys have really moved far.

afrodoc2:
You can tell this to those too young to remember 2009 Dayo.
That 2008 semi final was so tight and we had to play nearly perfect football to scrape through, that Barca team in 09 was surely top 5 and I was full of trepidation before the final

2008 Barca had Ronaldinho and Deco which 2009 didn't rather they got replacements who were seen as inferior to them
Barca of 2008 finished 3rd behind Villareal

Eruditor:


It's unfortunate if you felt my emphasis on the sextuple or in calling Pep a genius and Enrique a great coach was based on semantics.

What I would rather term as equally stuppid will be the notion that Tito winning just a league title, Tata winning nothing, and Enrique winning 5 out of 6 trophies is synonymous with replicating Pep's success. It is also superficial.

That Dead Cockroach won a league title when the Almighty Mou went trophyless in the same season with RM. So maybe that Dead Roach, is better than Mou?

If Pep breaking Jupp's record of winning the league with 7 games to go and adding the DFB-Pokal to it in his first season as well as playing a UCL semi-final is not him replicating some of his success at Barca, then I am lost for words.

Mou deserves his credit for winning the UCL with Porto and Inter, and whether another coach will replicate his success there is time based. Since Pep left Barca, they have won the UCL just once- last year, which means it is a stretch to say Barca continueS (now employing semantics)to win in his absence except you let me borrow from your school of reasoning and say that since RDM won a UCL with CFC (what Mou couldn't do) then every other achievement Mou had with Chelsea could easily be replicated.

I think you lack basic comprehensive skills.

The point here is that Barca are a team so strong that even when their manager was dying, and they were managerless In a manner of speaking, they were still able to romp to the title.

Vilanova's successors were able to replicate Pep's success in varying degrees despite a crucial lack of winning experience.

How many managers win the Apex league of a major European country at first attempt? How many won the European trophy at first attempt? How many coaches did this with a team not called Barca?

The rest of your post is either irrelevant or hot garbage. I can see you going on about some cockroach or what not. Please don't quote me again

afrodoc2:


You can tell this to those too young to remember 2009 Dayo.
That 2008 semi final was so tight and we had to play nearly perfect football to scrape through, that Barca team in 09 was surely top 5 and I was full of trepidation before the final

Good you said this. Fergie with a strong United team then had to play very defensive to go through. Basically the Barcelona pre Pep wasn't mediocre exactly; it was more of a case of underachieving though Pep deserves credit for a lot of other things.

raumdeuter:


2008 Barca had Ronaldinho and Deco which 2009 didn't rather they got replacements who were seen as inferior to them
Barca of 2008 finished 3rd behind Villareal

Ronaldinho was finished and a non factor in 2008.
And Barca of 2008 finishing 3rd shows that the team was not as good as the 2009 team esp cos the 2009 team had already being crowned champions of Spain with weeks to spare by the time they faced us.

GBR1:

Good you said this. Fergie with a strong United team then had to play very defensive to go through. Basically the Barcelona pre Pep wasn't mediocre exactly; it was more of a case of underachieving though Pep deserves credit for a lot of other things.

Gbaski

The thing Is Pep is definitely a good coach.

Dayo by the time Barca faced us they had scored 105 goals in the league alone and you want to lie to the younglings here that they were underdogs?
Your 419 no be here

afrodoc2:


Ronaldinho was finished and a non factor in 2008.
And Barca of 2008 finishing 3rd shows that the team was not as good as the 2009 team esp cos the 2009 team had already being crowned champions of Spain with weeks to spare by the time they faced us.

Who were the difference between 08 and 09

Out Ronaldinho Zambrotaa Deco Emilson Oleguer

In Hleb Pique, Caceres, Dani Alves and Seydou keita

Those were the ttransfers made others were players already there or youth team players

Aside this, The difference between the 08 squad who finished 18 points behind and the 09 squad who won the league with 9 points and the treble was Pep Guardiola

Nihilist:

I think you lack basic comprehensive skills.

The point here is that Barca are a team so strong that even when their manager was dying, and they were managerless In a manner of speaking, they were still able to romp to the title.

Vilanova's successors were able to replicate Pep's success in varying degrees despite a crucial lack of winning experience.

How many managers win the Apex league of a major European country at first attempt? How many won the European trophy at first attempt? How many coaches did this with a team not called Barca?

The rest of your post is either irrelevant or hot garbage. I can see you going on about some cockroach or what not. Please don't quote me again

The point is that there wouldn't have even been a team so strong without Pep. He got a losing team that finished 3rd on the log, transformed the team, made the team strong and won it all in the process. The team he made strong became the bench mark of football.

afrodoc2:
Dayo by the time Barca faced us they had scored 105 goals in the league alone and you want to lie to the younglings here that they were underdogs?
Your 419 no be here

If you want to make jest lets just start

2009 finals Barca missed 2 key defenders, They missed both full backs Dani Alves, and Abidal they missed Marquez due to injury and had to play Sylvinho as LB, Puyol as RB and Yaya as CB

Vs Man Utd who wasnt missing any major player

sebod:

The point is that there wouldn't have even been a team so strong without Pep. He got a losing team that finished 3rd on the log, transformed the team, made the team strong and won it all in the process. The team he made strong became the bench mark of football.

No doubt he put the team together, but this was mainly a team of already existing world class talent. Dayo is mentioning Hleb and Caeceres. How many games did they play?

Sebod, the talent was already on ground, the talent already knew try Barca way. Pep just happened to be there at the time.

Bar Tata, Pep's successors have been Barca insiders. One could argue that Any single one of them could have been Pep.

I mean look at Donkey Enrique, sacked from 2 clubs, all of a sudden winning back to back trophies in 2 seasons.

Come on mehn...

raumdeuter:


Between 2004 and 2007 How many teams were stronger than Mourinhos Chelsea

Arsenal were just coming off from a record season and and Ancelloti's Milan were still dominant in Europe

between 2011 and 2013 how many teams were stronger than Mourinhos Madrid

Barcelona were still definately stronger.

No one expected Barca of 2009 who have finished trophyless 18points behind league leaders and sold their superstars to make a domestic sweep

I believe you meant 2008 here and Madrid their major rival were not exactly excellent. Their struggles in Europe show that but Barcelona's incompetence then made them appear better then.

Chelsea was favourite for every title in England from 2005-07 they were favoirite to win in 2015, Inter was favourite to win the Serie A every season Mourinho was there

The entirety of this is false.

you can disprove any of these assertions

You have made very good points though and there's no guarantee mine would stand.

afrodoc2:


You can tell this to those too young to remember 2009 Dayo.
That 2008 semi final was so tight and we had to play nearly perfect football to scrape through, that Barca team in 09 was surely top 5 and I was full of trepidation before the final

Before the 09 season definitely Man Utd the defending champions, Chelsea the runner up and Liverpool , Madrid who had schooled them domestically. There were still the Italians like Milan and Inter

barca at the start of 2009 was a team building again. No one would expect a team rebuilding with a rookie coach to win in Europe

raumdeuter:


Who were the difference between 08 and 09

Out Ronaldinho Zambrotaa Deco Emilson Oleguer

In Hleb Pique, Caceres, Dani Alves and Seydou keita

Those were the ttransfers made others were players already there or youth team players

Aside this, The difference between the 08 squad who finished 18 points behind and the 09 squad who won the league with 9 points and the treble was Pep Guardiola

He was replacing a mediocre coach in Rijkaard.
Actually the fact that Rijkaard (an otondo who was sacked after relegating Sparta for the first time in its history, sacked by Saudi Arabia after losing to Iraq and Kuwait, sacked after failing at Galatasaray) was able to go to multiple semi finals and even win the champs league with Barca tells you about the quality of players Barca has had for the last 10yrs
In which other clubs have Tata Martino, Luis Enrique, Tito Villanova or Frank Rikaard succeeded as managers?

GBR1:
Arsenal were just coming off from a record season and and Ancelloti's Milan were still dominant in Europe

Barcelona were still definately stronger.
I believe you meant 2008 here and Madrid their major rival were not exactly excellent. Their struggles in Europe show that but Barcelona's incompetence then made them appear better then.

The entirety of this is false.

You have made very good points though and there's no guarantee mine would stand.

Let people who understand what they are typing and have a deeper knowledge of the game post you can stay by the sidelines or pick your size

GBR1 you shouldn't have answered that Dayo's trick question jare

I don't think you know this Egbon very well.

04 Chelsea were upstarts winning their first league title in 54 years, yet Dayo says we were favourites...favourites for what?

Milan were probably the strongest team in Europe then with Sheva in direct competion Raul competing for UCL top scorer boot.

afrodoc2:
Dayo by the time Barca faced us they had scored 105 goals in the league alone and you want to lie to the younglings here that they were underdogs?
Your 419 no be here

Man U were clearly the favourite as the defending champions. They had a full squad as against a Barca team that had Iniesta playing on injection, and have to improvise with Sylvinho and Puyol playing as the full backs.

afrodoc2:

He was replacing a mediocre coach in Rijkaard.
Actually the fact that Rijkaard (an otondo who was sacked after relegating Sparta for the first time in its history, sacked by Saudi Arabia after losing to Iraq and Kuwait, sacked after failing at Galatasaray) was able to go to multiple semi finals and even win the champs league with Barca tells you about the quality of players Barca has had for the last 10yrs
In which other clubs have Tata Martino, Luis Enrique, Tito Villanova or Frank Rikaard succeeded as managers?

Regardless of what you say about Rijkaard he won the CL after 14yrs and brought Barca back into European forefront

Pep himself was a rookie a rookie who became a legend in so short a time abeg if he is no genius then no coach should be called a genius then

Nihilist:

I think you lack basic comprehensive skills.

The point here is that Barca are a team so strong that even when their manager was dying, and they were managerless In a manner of speaking, they were still able to romp to the title.

Vilanova's successors were able to replicate Pep's success in varying degrees despite a crucial lack of winning experience.

How many managers win the Apex league of a major European country at first attempt? How many won the European trophy at first attempt? How many coaches did this with a team not called Barca?

The rest of your post is either irrelevant or hot garbage. I can see you going on about some cockroach or what not. Please don't quote me again

I don't lack anything. Your dead Roach metaphor was Tito on his sick bed winning a title. I am surprised nobody called you out for the disingenuousness of not correlating how Pep's assistant who had the template but was lacking only in health and Je ne sais quoi could steer his already made team to another title.

Tito's successors save Enrique didn't replicate anything Pep did and I called you out again for the hollowness of that assertion.

The needless rhetorics and defensive retorts will only intimidate people who take note of certain monikers before responding. Perhaps, if quoting your post was the hallmark of true success in life, maybe only the NLders in the football section will be successful.

Let me simplify Nihilist point.
All these FAILURES as managers come to Barca and suddenly start winning titles and they go elsewhere and continue as failures
This makes us believe that you do not have to be a genius to be extra successful in Barca. U only have to be good or great.
IF FAILURES CAN BECOME SUCCESSFUL IN BARCA THEN ANYONE CAN

Nihilist:


Gbaski

The thing Is Pep is definitely a good coach.

There is not doubt about this though. One could give the team he used to someone else with all factors/variables remaining constant and the that individual might not achieve even half of what he did. To this he deserves a lot of credit but when it's a stretch too far to argue it's not debatable.

raumdeuter:

Let people who understand what they are typing and have a deeper knowledge of the game post you can stay by the sidelines or pick your size

I see you're still butt hurt regards previous debates you got schooled in. Don't worry; i won't rub it your face, but i would advise you move on from it as i have done.

sebod:

Man U were clearly the favourite as the defending champions. They had a full squad as against a Barca team that had Iniesta playing on injection, and have to improvise with Sylvinho and Puyol playing as the full backs.

I am a Man Utd fan and I remember how tensed I was that day. I was more confident in in 99 and 08, in 2011 I was relaxed cos I knew we would lose

Nihilist:
GBR1 you shouldn't have answered that Dayo's trick question jareI don't think you know this Egbon very well.
04 Chelsea were upstarts winning their first league title in 54 years, yet Dayo says we were favourites...favourites for what?
Milan were probably the strongest team in Europe then with Sheva in direct competion Raul competing for UCL top scorer boot.

Chelsea finished second in 04, made the CL semi On top of that the

Next season got Mourinho(A CL winning coach) spent the most money in Europe bought Drogba(one of the best strikers in Europe) bought carvalho, Bought Cech, Paolo Ferreira, Arjen Robben

Chelsea were spending money and no one in Europe could match them

GBR1:
I see you're still butt hurt regards previous debates you got schooled in. Don't worry; i won't rub it your face, but i would advise you move on from it as i have done.

When you see people with more knowledge debating the logical thing to do is to sit back and learn.

its not all the time afrodoc would come out to discuss football, when you are now privileged to see him and Nihilist debating on the same topic at the same time, any one who wants to improve would sit back and take note from their wealth of facts not butting in when you are clearly out of your depth

At least you haven't seen any of them quoting 1.1 win ratio or editing their posts after being caught out. Not insisting the "I cannot own up to being wrong"

Thats the way to increase your knowledge

raumdeuter:


Chelsea finished second in 04, made the CL semi On top of that the

Next season got Mourinho(A CL winning coach) spent the most money in Europe bought Drogba(one of the best strikers in Europe) bought carvalho, Bought Cech, Paolo Ferreira, Arjen Robben

Chelsea were spending money and no one in Europe could match them

Only carvalho and Ferreira was really 'known' from Portos victory the year before

Drogba one of the best strikers in Europe

You might as well say Dado Prso was the world best.

Egbon you can lie for Africa