[/Quote]You have to admit that the verses above spoke to Muhammad (AS), first, about the time of Moses as in the revelation time of the Torah. Then about the time of Jesus as in the revelation time of the Inji, the Gospel if you will. When these noble men were alive, first Moses, the Torah that was being given to him have to be perfect, and pristine because he was there to guide it and use it to judge the children of Israel. The case must be what happened to Jesus when he was alive to guide and use the Gospel and what he knew as the truth from what the Jews had, disregarding their "handmade by the pen of the scribes" to judge and guide. Now fast forward to verse 4;47. Allah now addressed the two people with previous revelations, Jews and Christians about a man and the latest revelation he has (AS), from the same God. Just like it was wrong for Jews to ignore Jesus, and stubbornly stick with Moses during the time of Jesus, it is now wrong just the same to stubbornly stick with Moses by Jews still, and Jesus by Christians, ignoring the present Messenger (AS) with them. This is a t the time of revelation of Quran. Now, since Allah says in Surah Azhab that Prophethood has ended with Muhammad (AS), we do not expect any religion as God says in Surah Maidah that He has Perfected the Only religion for mankind, and by it a favor from Him all under Muhammad, and whoever brings another religion, it will not be accepted, followership of Muhammad by Quran, Sunnah and Authentic Hadith therefore is expected from all, especially those who are aware that revelations used to come from God to man messenger (AS) for guidance of man; communities, etc.

Allah says, to show that Jews and Christians have erred, and their books have been corrupted gave many ayah in the Quran and my brothers who have responded to you have stated many. I will like you to read verse 12 to 15 of Surah Maidah. You will see that Allah says in them that Jews hide the truth, so do the christians. The hiding began sometimes before succeeding prophet came after the previous one. After Moses and before Jesus (AS), the Jews hid the truth. ANd it is by this that Jesus said the false pen of the scribes thing in your NT. From the same NT we see that post Jesus, suddenly Jesus became a God, while he said himself that he was a servant sent, among being powerless. We also see gospels argued out or preached by the likes of Paul whereby Jesus became what you Seyibrown have swallowed, whole. Again, the bible is the worst enemy of the bible. By the above what God will Judge believers at the time of Mose with will be the Pure Torah before the scribes used their pen to mark it all up; trashing it, hiding the truth. What God will Judge believers at the time of Jesus will the Pure Gospel before we have the scribes (Paul, the council of Necea, etc, King James later later) used their own formula of pen to mark it all up, trashing it, hiding the truth just like the Jews.


[1. Have you got any scriptural proof that the 'Torah and Gospel' as referred to above as being valid before God WERE DISAPPROVED BY MOHAMMED? Please provide them. I will prefer proof from the Quran over proof from an Hadith given the number of times Muslims have told us of the unreliabilty of certain Hadiths on NL![quote][/Quote]Allah says that He revealed Torah to Moses, and Gospel to Jesus. What other proofs do you need? It was the Torah or Injil before the scribes got their hands on it after each prophet left his community. Or Seyi will say that the scribes didnt play on Taurah of Moses, as Jesus complained or that there was nothing written in the NT that Jesus didnt have any part of? The Torah and Injil that has input of scribes are corrupt; Allah will always disapprove corruption. You seyi even disapprove corruption. Thats a fact.



[Quote]2. Please provide Quranic proof that the Torah and Gospel (that God will judge Jews and Christians by) as referred to in the scripture above was the 'corrupted' ones, or provide Quranic proof to show that the scripture refers to the 'uncorrupted' ones.[/Quote]Seyi goes back and forth, thinking that she can bamboozoo us. There, as above response, some children of Israel, of the time of Moses shall be judged by what was given to Moses. Those who shall find favor of God by it will certainly be Moses, Aaron, Joshua to name obvious few. Those who wil find disaster by it will include those leader who constructed the yahweh of golden calf (i use yahweh so that the christian may know that it simply means the lord and the calf was the lord then). In today's jewish Torah which is now corrupt, God will also judge them by it for sticking on corruption, from the time corruption entered it, all the way passing Jesus era because they refused to come to him, just as they refuse to come to Muhammad (AS) then and now. Apply this same process to Christianity and Injil. Truth at time t or dt is always constant, 1 truth, without any version but original truth. This is Islam of the Prophets, ending with Muhammad (AS).



[Quote]3. Please provide proof, Quranic (and Historical outside the Quran, if available) that the contents of the 'corrupted' books SIGNIFICANTLY distort the message of the original books, and cite instances from the ORIGINALS in comparison with the CORRUPTED.[/Quote}Allah says of the Jews they called Uzair son of God. And the Christians say that Jesus son of Mary (son of Mary it is identified) as son of God. Allah says that they lied that God does not need any child, everything being His creation. Allah says they should stop saying these horrible things. ANd the christinas to desist about Trinity (Please read Surah Maidah) You can read verses 4 and 5of Surah Kahf too, where Allah spoke about the liars who said evil thing that Allah has a son. The original Torah and Gospel said that God is 1 and everything else is His servant, created. Jesus said he was servant as you can read in your Bible, stating further that he was powerless, unable to do anything by himself. He and I both, just the Messengers (AS)) and Prophets (AS).



[Quote]4.  Please, also provide Quranic (and Historical outside the Quran, if available) that the 'corruption of the originals' ONLY as you have found and provided in answer to Q3 above are to the extent that adherents of the books abide by rules that cause them to live contrary God's commandments, and cite instances from the ORIGINALS in comparison with the CORRUPTED.[/Quote]Go back to the above and your answer lies in there. By the way no practicing Jew believes that God Who created everything somehow found it necessary to go into a woman's belly and be cocooned there for 9 months and then came out weak like every human child. Needed mom's breasts and after all of that ran away, docking from being killed and finally his fortune ran out, got hung. It just doesnt add up in the mind of normal people. AM sure your holy ghost told you differently; climbing up on a woman, overshadowing her, is like a plan for holiness.



[Quote]5. Please provide proof (Quranic) as to whether the 'Books' had been corrupted AS AT THE TIME the 'revelation of the Quran' was given to Mohammed or the 'writing of the Quran' OR that they were corrupted AFTER the 'revelation' and 'writing' of the Quran.[/Quote]The idea of trinity was already estalished, and Quran spoke against it. Go to Surah Al Maidah.



[Quote]PLEASE REMEMBER TO AVOID as much as possible ANY DODGY HADITHS THAT CONTRADICT THE QURAN in answering the above. Proof outside the Quran should preferably be REFERENCED so as to allow participants and spectators to be able to examine the contents and the credibility of the originators.
Thanks in advance.[/Quote]The brothers did excellent job. Hopefully, something good will come out of these.

vedaxcool:

Was Mohammed literate?
he was not literate.

Did he read the Torah, Psalms and Injil?

No he did not read any of the above books.

Did he approve of them during his life-time?
No, he did not approve of the copies that were in circulation during his life time.

Did he command/encourage Muslims to consult these books?

He commanded Muslim to seek knowledge, but did not did not make a duty to read the bible or any of the books you mentioned.

Did he command/encourage Muslims to abide by these books?

No.

I found the below in the Quran, and it ONLY tells me that the TORAH and GOSPEL are valid as God will judge the Jews and the Christians respectively by them.

QURAN 5: 46 -48 ( Version: Sahih International)
46 And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.

47 And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

48 And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.


. . . . and that the 'Books' were already with the Jews and the Christians (as at the time of Mohammed and the writing of the Quran)

QURAN 4: 47 (Version: Muhsin Khan)
O you who have been given the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have revealed (to Muhammad SAW) confirming what is (already) with you , before We efface faces (by making them like the back of necks; without nose, mouth, eyes, etc.) and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers. And the Commandment of Allah is always executed.



I did not find anything in the Quran that says that that the 'Torah and Gospel' that the Quran refers to as what 'God will judge the people of the Book by' and that which 'was already with them' have been corrupted.

1. Have you got any scriptural proof that the 'Torah and Gospel' as referred to above as being valid before God WERE DISAPPROVED BY MOHAMMED? Please provide them. I will prefer proof from the Quran over proof from an Hadith given the number of times Muslims have told us of the unreliabilty of certain Hadiths on NL!

2. Please provide Quranic proof that the Torah and Gospel (that God will judge Jews and Christians by) as referred to in the scripture above was the 'corrupted' ones, or provide Quranic proof to show that the scripture refers to the 'uncorrupted' ones.

3. Please provide proof, Quranic (and Historical outside the Quran, if available) that the contents of the 'corrupted' books SIGNIFICANTLY distort the message of the original books, and cite instances from the ORIGINALS in comparison with the CORRUPTED.

In answer, he requests that certain 'ridiculous' passages (of "biblical impossibilty" be deleted from the Bible before 'they' can 'take it serious'.

4.  Please, also provide Quranic (and Historical outside the Quran, if available) that the 'corruption of the originals' ONLY as you have found and provided in answer to Q3 above are to the extent that adherents of the books abide by rules that cause them to live contrary God's commandments, and cite instances from the ORIGINALS in comparison with the CORRUPTED.

5. Please provide proof (Quranic) as to whether the 'Books' had been corrupted AS AT THE TIME the 'revelation of the Quran' was given to Mohammed or the 'writing of the Quran' OR that they were corrupted AFTER the 'revelation' and 'writing' of the Quran.

Now, seyi, this verses clearly indiate that you and your Christian and Jewish Cohorts have forgoten good parts of what was revealed and the jews were involved in the dislocation of the Bible "  made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message"
Hence this is an indication of the corruption we are talking about. And like I said the Qur'an Obviously was reffering to legal injuctions found in the bible and hence this does not in any way refer to the Bull Crap we find in the Bible. On Tuersday on a trip, I had the pleasure of discussing with a Christian Elder, we chatted from one topic to another till we got to the issue of the religion, He Categorically told me that God did not fathered Jesus and instead he understood the word Begotten, as meaning Being the primary Cause of the existence of Jesus, in any case he said I should tell people like you that you are misconcieving the real Jesus. But like I have taken answered you question, let me see the Gynastics you would trow.

Seyi as for your Summary, you did not realy surprise me in any of the falshood you ranted, A chief reason I gave was simple, i ask where did the Qur'an talks of Paul? I ask where did the Qur'an talks of Mathew, Mark or Luke? The Qur'an speaks of giving the gospels to Jesus, but what like I said you did not suprise me as I have long before now detected significant levels of dishonesty in dealing with you. Your summary is not only self serving but an indication of your dishonesty, who are you to leave out what people say? Is this the Purpose of this thread? to show us how you can win an arguement/discusion by overlooking daming evidence? Just keep it Up. As I find it a strong evidence of the falsness of the path you follow.

vedaxcool:

I still Dey Laugh!

seyibrown:

[b]vedaxcool,

Thank you for the COMPLIMENTS! It's a shame you are not happy with the summary I gave in post # 35 on your responses. I only wish you had 'DEFENDED' your 'OPINIONS' by actually ANSWERING the questions posed instead of LAUGHING! You basically contributed 'nothing'. How do you think your responses CLARIFIED your position or that of Islam? The only question that other 3 contributors could not really provide an answer for was the one that arose from your careless and unfounded assertion that 'Mohammed did not approve of the copies that were around during his lifetime'. You absconded for a while only to come back when more diligent Muslims had put answers in defence of what you started.

Next time, try to CONVINCE non-believers by presenting Quranic proof in support of your views instead of LAUGHING your embarassment away while other Muslims are presenting arguments in favour of teh Islamic point of view!

Thanks for your 'CONTRIBUTION'(wastage of valuable bandwith) anyway!   

vedaxcool:

"O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be)[size=18pt] among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say[/size], 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.  (The Noble Quran, 5:41)"


Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my messengers, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude."
[size=18pt]5:13 But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.[/size]
[size=18pt]5:14 From those, too, who call themselves[b] Christians,[/b] We did take a covenant, [size=18pt]but they forgot a good part of the message [/size]that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.[/size]

Hadith evidence--

A Hadith that supports the corruption of the Bible: Narrated Ubaidullah:  "Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the[b[size=18pt]] people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain[/size][/b]. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"
[size=18pt][color=#000099][b]


Verse 2:79
Yusuf Ali:
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

vedaxcool:

I found the below in the Quran, and it ONLY tells me that the TORAH and GOSPEL are valid as God will judge the Jews and the Christians respectively by them.
[size=18pt]
I dey Laugh![/size]

QURAN 5: 46 -48 ( Version: Sahih International)
46 And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.

Pls Point to the Gospel, which of them is according to Jesus, as the Qur'an says we gave Jesus son of Mary the gospel, all I read in the Gospel according to mathew accd to luke, I have no business with this anonymous authors, Only with Jesus whom ALLAH dealt with. As for the torah When You and the Jews made it possible for a prophet to sleep with his own daughter and faced no consequence, any with common sense will reject such a bull for a book of ALLAH, and again we read in the Torah, Moses died in the land of Moab, he WAS SO and so years old, the question is can a dead man write his own obituary? absolutely no, then common sense dictate that some one wrote part of those books. when we say he did not approve of those spurious books,we mean the ones in circulation during his time.
Can you point where the Qur'an spoke about Paul? So we do need to swindle by unsuspecting people who accept just about anything that falls from the mouth of a liar.






47 And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

So which laws where reveal in the Gospel?


48 And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.



This simply assert what we Muslims have been saying that is there are some truths to be found in this books, but frudulent individual have placed their words in them, and more so there was a time when Christians read from gospels such gospel of thomas, gospel of Nazarenes, etc but what happened? the church authorities simply decided this and that are the aord of God and hence we shall follow them. The Qur'an again wwas asserting that injuction such as common social ethos found in the Gospel/torah are to be followed since there are consistent in some way to the Qur'an injuctions

. . . . and that the 'Books' were already with the Jews and the Christians (as at the time of Mohammed and the writing of the Quran)

Just answered above

QURAN 4: 47 (Version: Muhsin Khan)
O you who have been given the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have revealed (to Muhammad SAW) confirming what is (already) with you , before We efface faces (by making them like the back of necks; without nose, mouth, eyes, etc.) and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers. And the Commandment of Allah is always executed.



I did not find anything in the Quran that says that that the 'Torah and Gospel' that the Quran refers to as what 'God will judge the people of the Book by' and that which 'was already with them' have been corrupted.

Because certain rules and injuction are consistent with the Qur'an, like we read about the ten commandments in the torah hence this are what are consistent with Qur'an, as always asserted by Muslims devine reelation follow a similar stream of do's and don'ts. but the koko is that you guys have been slash them because they do not follow your preconceived blasphemy such as Jesus is Lord notions. and didn't the Qur;an say:
[b]
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

1. Have you got any scriptural proof that the 'Torah and Gospel' as referred to above as being valid before God WERE DISAPPROVED BY MOHAMMED? Please provide them. I will prefer proof from the Quran over proof from an Hadith given the number of times Muslims have told us of the unreliabilty of certain Hadiths on NL!

Your preference of one evidence over another is as meaningless as a goat's bleating,as the Qur'an has authorized the hadiths Hadith scolars took time to to authenticate true hadiths,it is Just like saying do not quote any of the Gospel unless the one Jesus authored shekena. and Like the Qur'an says
[b]

And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.[/b]

2. Please provide Quranic proof that the Torah and Gospel (that God will judge Jews and Christians by) as referred to in the scripture above was the 'corrupted' ones, or provide Quranic proof to show that the scripture refers to the 'uncorrupted' ones.

When you show me proof of the gospel Jesus authored then I will answer you but as long as you quote some anonylous authors Ba ruwana!


3. Please provide proof, Quranic (and Historical outside the Quran, if available) that the contents of the 'corrupted' books SIGNIFICANTLY distort the message of the original books, and cite instances from the ORIGINALS in comparison with the CORRUPTED.

You will have to delete ridiculous passages from the bible for us to take it serious, really like the verse that makes a son older than his father and other contradictory verses like the genealogy of Jesus where Joseph is Given two fathers, an biblical impossibility.

4. Please, also provide Quranic (and Historical outside the Quran, if available) that the 'corruption of the originals' ONLY as you have found and provided in answer to Q3 above are to the extent that adherents of the books abide by rules that cause them to live contrary God's commandments, and cite instances from the ORIGINALS in comparison with the CORRUPTED.


You like repeating yourself in the hope that falsehood becomes truth.


5. Please provide proof (Quranic) as to whether the 'Books' had been corrupted AS AT THE TIME the 'revelation of the Quran' was given to Mohammed or the 'writing of the Quran' OR that they were corrupted AFTER the 'revelation' and 'writing' of the Quran.

I have shown you how certain books where thrown away by the church in a bid to streamline their views with the Bible. I donot really have time now but know that I will be back with answers and questions, Know that if you start your mouth Gymnastics in this thread then I will follow suit.

The following Question arises:

1. Do you agree that with the responses given,that the Qur'an not only asserts that the bible is corrupted but also a contains the conjecture of men?

2. With the responses given can we say confidently that you agree with the Qur'an that the bible is corrupt? a forgery and at best the displaced words of God by the hand of men.

3. We read strange comments in the bible such as the geneeaology of Jesus whom you contradictinly claim is the son of God? I dey Laugh, but at the same time give him human fathers? how is that to be? why the Somersaulting.
? this is verse gives us the a strange situation by making it possible that the whole of Humanity is nbot more than 6000 years old? what a grave faslehood? pls we need answer not Gynastics.

4. Jesus was reported to have said in the bible emphatically, I do not know the day of judgment, the question is was he lying or telling the truth? since you claim that he is lord and all powers are given unto him, then can we conclude that such claims are either Lies or just smear campaign against his person? Remember you claim he could give life to the dead and died to save the world, but yet we find him admitting to Ignorance, now that is ungodly?

5. Can you point were exactly Jesus said worship and I am God?

6. If Jesus is Lord auzobillah, then why should he refer to himself as being a servant of God? Aren't you lying on his head because he is not here to defend his name?

this are just a tip of the ice burg.

seyibrown:

vedaxcool's questions as below are thrown to the Xtians in the House. Thanks!

Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a virgin marries, she does not sin. Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life, and I would spare you that. I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none, and those who mourn as thought they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no possessions, and those who deal with the world as thought they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

Papias (Greek: Παπίας) (working in the first half of the 2nd century) was one of the early leaders of the Christian church, canonized as a saint. Eusebius of Caesarea calls him "Bishop of Hierapolis" (modern Pamukkale, Turkey) which is 22 km from Laodicea and near Colossae (see Col. 4:13), in the Lycus river valley in Phrygia, Asia Minor, not to be confused with the Hierapolis of Syria.
His Interpretations of the Sayings of the Lord (his word for "sayings" is logia) in five books, would have been a prime early authority in the exegesis of the sayings of Jesus, some of which are recorded in the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke, however the book has not survived and is known only through fragments quoted in later writers, with neutral approval in Irenaeus's Against Heresies and later by Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History, the earliest surviving history of the early Church.

Papias describes his way of gathering information:
I will not hesitate to add also for you to my interpretations what I formerly learned with care from the Presbyters and have carefully stored in memory, giving assurance of its truth. For I did not take pleasure as the many do in those who speak much, but in those who teach what is true, nor in those who relate foreign precepts, but in those who relate the precepts which were given by the Lord to the faith and came down from the Truth itself. And also if any follower of the Presbyters happened to come, I would inquire for the sayings of the Presbyters, what Andrew said, or what Peter said, or what Philip or what Thomas or James or what John or Matthew or any other of the Lord's disciples, and for the things which other of the Lord's disciples, and for the things which Aristion and the Presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, were saying. For I considered that I should not get so much advantage from matter in books as from the voice which yet lives and remains.
Thus Papias reports he heard things that came from an unwritten, oral tradition of the Presbyters, a "sayings" or logia tradition that had been passed from Jesus to such of the apostles and disciples as he mentions in the fragmentary quote. The scholar Helmut Koester considers him the earliest surviving witness of this tradition.[1]

35I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Sweetnecta:

^^^^^^ According to you in the post before, you said that the Gospel of Jesus, as a logion was not complete in the Logia (gospels) in the Bible/ You states a verse in the Acts to demonstrate this, and even mentioned Logion of Thomas, as well.

In all of these above, and specifically the for that are now canons, we know that something is still missing from the Gospel of Jesus, or added to the Gospel of Jesus.

You definitely know that a man who says he is a servant can be the sired and the only sired son of the same entity he is a slave, servant to.

Its not like being an ifa priest and a pastor at the same time. The people may be concern to get wacked with ifa or bible if they say anything.

That is not the case when it comes to Almighty. True believers will doubt a man who says he is God's servant to be God's son. Why would God need son.

1. Do you agree that with the responses given,that the Qur'an not only asserts that the bible is corrupted but also a contains the conjecture of men?

2. With the responses given can we say confidently that you agree with the Qur'an that the bible is corrupt? a forgery and at best the displaced words of God by the hand of men.

3. We read strange comments in the bible such as the geneeaology of Jesus whom you contradictinly claim is the son of God? I dey Laugh, but at the same time give him human fathers? how is that to be? why the Somersaulting.
? this is verse gives us the a strange situation by making it possible that the whole of Humanity is nbot more than 6000 years old? what a grave faslehood? pls we need answer not Gynastics.

4. Jesus was reported to have said in the bible emphatically, I do not know the day of judgment, the question is was he lying or telling the truth? since you claim that he is lord and all powers are given unto him, then can we conclude that such claims are either Lies or just smear campaign against his person? Remember you claim he could give life to the dead and died to save the world, but yet we find him admitting to Ignorance, now that is ungodly?

5. Can you point were exactly Jesus said worship and I am God?

6. If Jesus is Lord auzobillah, then why should he refer to himself as being a servant of God? Aren't you lying on his head because he is not here to defend his name?

this are just a tip of the ice burg.

Pastor AIO:

What do you mean, 'the so-called gospels were not in existence when Paul was alive'. Jesus died before Paul and Jesus brought the gospel so how can the gospel not be in existence when Paul was alive.

vedaxcool:

^^^

They were definately not aroud agreed that oral tradition were around but note that might be oe of the reasons that Paul perpetualy Contradicted Jesus at several instances since there was no authorotative book to be reffered to. just a theory though.

But more important is that why would any body take the words of Paul to be any close to the truth, since he was an avowed enemy of Christ?

vedaxcool:

IT is to b noted that whem jesus preached he did nt carry any book hence what u people have is simply eyewitness?? rport

vedaxcool:

U mistake corruption to mean lost.while infact it means altered. nb u r yet to ans any question posed bt i wl b charitab

[/Quote]Sure. But if it is Ifa chanting, you bet I would have been coherent, regardless of how silly it is.




[QUote] I don't see how anything you've said above pertains to anything that I have said. Please explain.[.Quote]Is the Bible corrupt? Do you know what it means to be corrupt, in the matter of what a person originally said versus what he was later reported to have said? Is the NT corrupt? That was the question, before you jumped right in. Is like your Amala and the Amala remix threads. Many responded somewhat awkwardly. So you have here.



[QUote]And by the way, Logion is simply a saying. Logia means sayings. Or, if you like, utterances. Logion is the singular and Logia is the plural. The books of Matthew mark luke and john and also thomas are not the logia, but they contain logia. Do you understand that?[/Quote]If I asked a muslim to recite Quran, and if he or she recites a single verse and stops, that would have been Quran. Everything is relative. When I said Logion, I meant a single saying. When i said Logia, I meant more than a single saying; it could be a chapter, a Gospel according to . . . . and it could have been all the canonized. Reality: even from all the canonized, plus the Acts, plus, and plus (throw what you want in it), the total logia of Jesus is not available to the Christians. What you have is a compilation of some (not all the Truth) Truth and a whole lotta Dare; this is corruption



[Quote]btw Are you Vedaxcool, because I was actually addressing Vedaxcool. Are you using 2 IDs.[/Quote]Just like you jumped into the discussion away from the Amala threads and the Ifa oracles, to respond to Vadexcool, I am jumping to just correct your thoughts that the Bible truly have a leg to stand on. Read it, again. Many Logia are missing. Others have been made logia. A fake logion is "I am God". How is the Ifa working for you, since I dislike it?

Pastor AIO:

Eyewitness? Are you the eye-witness that didn't see him carrying any books?

Sweetnecta:

@Pastor AIO: « #56 on: Today at 02:09:17 PM »And you the eye witness that saw him with a book. Now show us the book. We want to see your honesty or lack of.

Sweetnecta:

You as a babalawo should know that aa ki ntoju onika mesan kaa.

With so many Bibles around, one is bound to be incomplete, while none may be complete. Lack of completeness is in the case corruption. If there is one corrupt, please show me that one and the reader of that which you choose will accuse you.

and to demonstrate a corruption one needs to quote 2 verses which are talking abot the same subject, while they oppose each other. Does anyone need more than that process to show something is corrupt? Your servant Jesus whom You sent verses My Father and I are One.
Have you in your entire life seen a son who is made a servant of his father? Is a servant really a son of the Master? Ti a ba kaa eru, Inu eru aa baje.

oh. And i hate ifa, and others. they are idolatry. less, still, they are dirty. The one who thinks he can help cant help himself; Aaso ma npon mo won lorun.

Did he read the Torah, Psalms and Injil?

No he did not read any of the above books.

Do you agree that with the responses given,that the Qur'an not only asserts that the bible is corrupted but also a contains the conjecture of men?