It might be through your church, another ministry or people in need known to you.

SWEET!!!!!!!!!!

MILITIA:

Eh hen now! Scratch my back and I scratch yours! I give you my money, i get sit for ya kingdom come and go!

ol boy you don kolo finish

It's all good! I am here to entertain us! Don't you know that it is spritual "kickback"? My own God loves me[b] unconditionally [/b] so make una dey dash una money out with no result! Show me the difference between the life of a "believer" and that of an "unbeliever"---Nothing! We all go die! When we get there, we can discuss it!

That is why I find all these religious books baffling!  There was the old testicle   then the new testicle.   Which one is it?  My God's word is unchanging.  The same always!  So this new and old stuff is not sitting well with me.  Is it not amazing the "book" has different versions?  This tell me that your person upstairs can change mind at any time because people are unhappy with his rules.  LET YOUR YEA BE YEA AND YOUR NAY BE NAY!

You tell me that he died to wash our sins away and the sin is multiplying to infinity.  Now we are expecting a second coming.  Where does it end?  A 1000th coming I guess!  Please hold your stories straight I beg.  I told my children to please believe in the goodness of man for now and develop their own spirituality--of which I will respect, since I cannot tell them what the real deal is.

I do pay my tithes it's bibilical so i have to obey Gods word

why are people who claim to be christians never curious enough to go dig out the truth from the bible they claim to believe? It is a big book. You have problems cos you don't know that the book is also a historical book. It gives the history of life and particularly of Israel.

God doesn't change - He changes his ways. inn Eden, Innocence, Immediately outside Eden, Conscience, After that he moved to the dispensation of Law (which we try to hold on to, though it passed with the age of Israel). We are now in the church age. Grace. This is not Israel, no ceremonial laws or government that is mixed with religion. The church is the church, the state is the state. Does it not make sense?

You guys need to find a Bible teaching church, nont a mirarcle service. A place where the truth is taught, not a place where someone wants to excite you and take what you have!

Do I believe in giving? Yes. Am a pastor. I live on what people give. but I know that giving in the church age is not a tax (tithe). It is a sacrifice. It is a firstfruit given out of appreciation. Should be done willingly and cheerfully. Should be as each one has purposed in his heart, not as the preacher persuades or carjoles!

Because of my beliefs, I live poorly because people feel they don't have t give since God will not kill them for holding back their ten percent! We should even give more today than the Israelites. We should see ourrselves as custodians of God's wealth and always ask, 'What does he want me to use this resources for?' Note that giving is not always aaboout money. It could be time, talent, etc.

Send me a mail: cbti25@yahoo.com

See ya!

God doesn't change - He changes his ways. inn Eden, Innocence, Immediately outside Eden, Conscience, After that he moved to the dispensation of Law (which we try to hold on to, though it passed with the age of Israel). We are now in the church age. Grace. This is not Israel, no ceremonial laws or government that is mixed with religion. The church is the church, the state is the state. Does it not make sense?

this is just so refreshing coming from a pastor who could be "biased" in his view on this issue. the ironic / dangerous thing about TRUTH is that as donduke has rightly stated, people go the opposite extreme. i have found out something very amazing yet scary about knowing the truth about the love of god and of salvation, which is that it is absolutely total free will on your part! knowing this when you know that the LOVE from your father never changes (even though every action: opposite reaction) and this is how you really know you are serving god out of love and not fear!

a lot of people claim to worship god out of free will and not as the ultimate insurance plan (god knows i used to be the biggest one!) and so the daily fear of an "eternal hell" is always at the back of our minds. so because we think god will shut our "window of heaven" we give. so the act is there, but the motive, agenda, heart behind it is still in error and this is not what god wants from us.

when we know our "window" is constantly open and we still give as part of our worship to him, which also meets the needs of the local assembley we attend, those in the community that need it, etc we show a true life of freewill love and worship to god.

he has already been so good to us and continues to turn lemons into lemonade for us on a daily basis.



peace

I think Pastors are just chopping peoples money. I prefer to give to the poor. they are so many people with problems around us. What do these churches do with tithes apart from buying flashy cars and rubbing it face of improvished gullible members who keep worshipping them. " daddy,mummy"

I prefer to give to the poor.

thats the truth about God. he has made YOU the hose pipe through whom he can bless his children and the world. i could think of a hudred places i can send money to before even thinking of a church. nothing againts churchs, just my priority list i guess. and some times i get it wrong, and sometimes i get it right. which ever way you do it, its ANOTHER way of getting to know your father, his voice, his heart and desires. allign yourself and enjoy the ride!



PS - EVERY good roller coaster ride has highs and lows, peaks and dips. (selah!)

am still confused about this tithe stuff but maybe is safer to pay

uchetobi:

am still confused about this tithe stuff but maybe is safer to pay

Ah, tithe as insurance. A response out of fear. Usually engendered by some manipulative MOG, butchering the bible. remember "perfect love casts out fear".

God bless you

giving to the poor is not a good replacement to giving too the church and for missions. Yes, we are to help those less priviledged among us.

We are also to give towards to spread of the gospel. It means more if one more person puts faith in Christ than when one more mouth is fed with physical food. You could give to a thousand poor like many social groups are doing today but will never touch God's heart as when your giving moves the gospel further.

I know most of us are distracted by pastors who use offerings to live big. Without judging them because most of them who bellieve and teach tithing do so out of ignorance. WATCH YOURSELVES: giving for the work of mininstry is important and all Christians should do it as a duty. If you would rather give to the poor and if the last consideration is the church, you are not giving like Christians are commanded in scripture to do.

I speak boldly about this because I do not believe in tithing. my church's income is terriibly low because of this belief and because people preferr to be 'taxed' and levied. And I won't. I have no second thoughts about it, I have studied the Bible and I know it is clearly not a New Testament practice. Really, most preachers who hammer on tithes, tithes, tithes, do not know that there were three kinds of tithes. 1. for the upkeep of the levitess who were not to do any work except temple service. They owned no land, etc. 2. for the maintenance of the temple. 3. for the poor. THE POOR! The tithe was for them too. Who are the levites today? I don't see them.

Quick question: Can you really keep track of your income and pay your tithes accurately? I ask because some of you really want to be taxed rather than to love your God willingly.

Anyhow, I hope someone is being helped here. Take care and God bless you.

donduke:

We are also to give towards to spread of the gospel.

I'm not sure I agree with you on this point sir. There is no biblical warrant to suggest this. Money only moves in (or without) the body in response to physical need. Preaching the gospel does not cost money. The fact that men have decided to turn it into programs, crusades, organisations and the like which most definitely need money (and devour widows homes), is down to men and not outlined in the scriptures.

God bless

I am not talking about expensive programmes and crusades - and it depends on what you call expensive!

I should give you a few scriptures that show that the giving of believers moved the work forward. Have you read of the Philipian church in the Bible that supplied Paul's needs? It might not have been in the exact same terms as giving today but it was giving.

Be careful: When we react to extravagant preachers who look for every means to get money from believers, we should not fail in responding to the word of God. You have a major responsibility in choosing your church. If you choose the wrong church, you will have problems with their giving

Romans 16:26  For Macedonia and Achaia have decided with pleasure to make a special offering to the poor believers who are in Jerusalem.

Galatians 2:10  They only asked us to remember the poor; the very thing I was also eager to do.

Charity is from God; socialism and welfare are from man.

Giving is an expression of free will, without gimmicks, without coercion.  

II Corinthians 8:3  I testify on the basis of their ability and beyond their ability they gave willingly.

II Corinthians 8:2  That in the midst of severe testing and great pressure, the superabundance of their happiness and their deep poverty overflowed in rich generosity.  

II Corinthians 8:5  And not even as we anticipated, but they gave first of themselves to the Lord, then they gave to us by the will of God.  

The pastor must never make an issue out of money.

  II Corinthians 11:7-9  . . . because I preached the gospel of God to you without charge?  I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to serve you; and when I was present with you and was in need, I was not a burden to anyone; for when the brethren came from Macedonia, they fully supplied my need in everything, and I kept myself from being a burden to you, and will continue to do so.

Paul was supported by other churches such as the Ephesians and Philippians while he was in Corinth.  In this way he could make an issue out of the Gospel and truth.

The function of the board of deacons is to make issues clear that pertain to the economic survival of a local church.  The people must be informed of prosperity and adversity in the finances of the L.C.

The Corinthians were very wealthy; and yet Paul could not make an issue out of money with them.

The pastor-teacher exchanges spiritual blessing to the congregation for material blessing from the congregation, fulfilling the principle of mutual blessing by association,

Philippians 1:3 and 5  I am giving thanks to God for every memory of you, , because of your contribution from the first day until now for the purpose of spreading the gospel.

Giving reflects the mental attitude of the congregation toward their pastor-teacher.  

Philippians 4:10  I rejoice in the Lord greatly, that now at last you have revived your concern for me; indeed, you have been concerned, but you lacked opportunity to give.

Giving establishes a partnership between the pastor and the congregation.  The congregation provides the financial contribution as they are spiritually blessed by the pastor's teaching.  

Philippians 14:14  However, when you shared [by giving] and became partners with me in my adversity, you functioned honorably.

Giving is the application of Bible truth on the part of the congregation.  

Philippians 4:15-16  And you yourselves also recognize, that in the beginning of my ministry with reference to the gospel, when I had departed from Macedonia, not one church contributed to me in the application of truth of giving and receiving except you Philippians only; because even in Thessalonica you had sent an offering more than once for my needs.

Giving is a grace production in Christian service.  

Philippians 4:17  Not because I seek the gift, but I seek after the grace production of divine good which accumulates to your account.

Giving to supply for the communicators of truth is maximum blessing to the communicators and pleasing to God.  

Philippians 4:18  Moreover, I have received in total all of your gifts, and I have an abundance; I have been filled with blessing, having received from Epaphroditus the things [money] from you, a fragrant aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well-pleasing to God.


These are excerpts from some of my teachings. Let's be balanced in our viiews of God's word. We can't possibly make it suit us![color=#006600][/color][color=#990000][/color][color=#990000][/color][color=#990000][/color]

donduke:

giving to the poor is not a good replacement to giving too the church and for missions.

Yep, I agree. Whatever "need" that money can meet, support for missions and missionaries is a Biblical precedence. In addition to the verses you gave above, here's another:

3 Johnn 1:5-8
Beloved, thou doest faithfully whatsoever thou doest to the brethren, and to strangers; Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well: Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles. We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellowhelpers to the truth.

Donduke & Tell B,

I don't have the time to post at length here, but the scriptures you have posted point to physical needs being met (which then enables them to carry out the work), not money (expensive or otherwise, I made no such distinction), to actually do the work.

God bless

so what's your point? Preaching the gospel does cost money. These days of the internet. It is costing us money to be having this chat! I am actually feeling like it's some kind of bible study.

It cost money to do oversea mininistry. Monney to camp in the villages, start school with the aim of reaching parents. Everything the church does in terms of missions cost money, the cost might be relative to what exactly they are doing.

Anyhow, I hope to see your post when I come back

Hi again TV01,

TV01:

I don't have the time to post at length here, but the scriptures you have posted point to physical needs being met (which then enables them to carry out the work), not money (expensive or otherwise, I made no such distinction), to actually do the work.

However you look at it, TV01, it still stands that the financial support of Missions and missionaries is a Biblical precedence.

Donduke et Telly B,

I would appreciate your outlining scriptural warrant for money used for anything other than purely physical needs. If there is no physical need there is no giving.

When time permits I will happily discuss this on yet another level, but as yet neithjer of you have shown scriptural chapter and verse for the "expense" of missions.

To clarify, money needs in response to the physical need of any member of the body. No distinction whatsoever.

God bless

I do, and I am not lying. Ask God,

@TV01,

What you ask for has been offered by several others, most recently by donduke. You may interprete it however so flavours your outlook on money issues; but the point is that the verses offered speak to the same point, that the financial support of Missions and missionaries is a Biblical precedence.

-----------------

NB edited:

I observe also that donduke was not referring to your stretched assumptions of "expensive programmes and crusades"; and I wonder why you would have to draw that inference outside the ambit of his points.

me and my big mouth en.

Telly B:

@TV01,

What you ask for has been offered by several others, most recently by donduke. You may interprete it however so flavours your outlook on money issues; but the point is that the verses offered speak to the same point, that the financial support of Missions and missionaries is a Biblical precedence.

Not so sir.

I repeat, money only moves in response to physical need. Money is not a pre-requisite for the propagation of the gospel.

I would appreciate your quoting chapter and verse or detailing it from the scriptural narrative. All the scriptures posted thus far, have only shown money moving in response to a physical/personal need, not in order to spread the gospel.

If it's money driven, it's almost certainly man-birthed.

Telly B:

NB edited:

I observe also that donduke was not referring to your stretched assumptions of "expensive programmes and crusades"; and I wonder why you would have to draw that inference outside the ambit of his points.

I never made any "stretched assumptions" about "expensive programmes and crusades", as I have re-iterated above.

God bless

@TV01,

TV01:

I repeat, money only moves in response to physical need. Money is not a pre-requisite for the propagation of the gospel.

I may agree with you that money is not a pre-requisite in propagating the Gospel; but what exactly are the physical needs of missionaries and Missions that we should assume are separate from what we have stated?

TV01:

I would appreciate your quoting chapter and verse or detailing it from the scriptural narrative. All the scriptures posted thus far, have only shown money moving in response to a physical/personal need, not in order to spread the gospel.

Before I do so, may I ask you to think about the non-personal needs of Missions, please? Again, may I ask what you mean by 'personal' needs?

TV01:

If it's money driven, it's almost certainly man-birthed.

What is money-driven?

TV01:

I never made any "stretched assumptions" about "expensive programmes and crusades", as I have re-iterated above.

No worries. I was wondering about this line of your stretched inferences, dear sir:

TV01:

Preaching the gospel does not cost money. The fact that men have decided to turn it into programs, crusades, organisations and the like which most definitely need money (and devour widows homes), is down to men and not outlined in the scriptures.

I didn't read donduke making such inferences; and that's why I came back to note that in the NB. If we can maintain the simple contexts that we read in poeple's posts, maybe that would be more helpful, don't you think? I apologise if I misread you, though.

Cheers.

Hi Telly B,

I'll elucidate my position (from scripture as I read it).

First, man-made religion is money-driven (and a devourer of widows homes).

Second, there is no where in the NT narrative where a collection was evert taken for anything other than a personal/physical need of a member of the flock, be that a missionary, teacher or lay member with no functional remit. Needless to say, the Bible makes no distinction between members ( no clergy/laity split).

Physical need of missionaries:
An itinerant preacher of the word should look for his upkeep (bed and board) from those he ministers to or those he come out from, or indeed any part/member of the body who is willing/able to supply his needs (in a s much as he cannot do so himself). That was Pauls example.

One who teaches/pastors amongst the local congregation should have a full time job/business to meet his needs and the needs of his family. There is no notion of paid eldership. Everyone provides for his own family. Also pertinent to note is that eldership is always in the plural and the burden of pastoring/teaching shared amongst elders accordsing to gifting and maturity.

Freewill gifts to one who ministers is fine, although that should not take precedence over a real physical need, should not be cooerced or in any way taught as required by God or necessary to recieve a blessing.

Donduke,

While I appreciate your understanding of the ills of enforced tithing, I feel your teaching will have essentially the same effect, by making saints feel somehow compelled to give, which is only slightly removed from being enforced to give. I see this as an outworking of what I percieve to be flaws in your teaching on church structure and the relation between those who minister and those who don't. No offence, just my position.

Regards

TV

Hi again TV01,

Thanks for your response.

TV01:

First, man-made religion is money-driven (and a devourer of widows homes).

Ok.

TV01:

Second, there is no where in the NT narrative where a collection was evert taken for anything other than a personal/physical need of a member of the flock, be that a missionary, teacher or lay member with no functional remit.

There are various types of financial support for various needs in the NT, however they may have been expressed. What I read in Scripture is not merely what was stated there, but the undergirding principles - and that broadens my scope as to the concerns for financial support of Missions. In which case, I requested that you perhaps might look into the needs of Missions and see if they all could be pointing to merely personal needs.

TV01:

Needless to say, the Bible makes no distinction between members ( no clergy/laity split).

It all depends on what basis you make this inference, though. As to salvation, there are no distinctions; whereas as to service, there are clear distinctions made.

TV01:

Physical need of missionaries:
An itinerant preacher of the word should look for his upkeep (bed and board) from those he ministers to or those he come out from, or indeed any part/member of the body who is willing/able to supply his needs (in a s much as he cannot do so himself). That was Pauls example.

Partly true; but even Paul as an apostle (as far as examples go) also sought to make a living when he was not restrained by imprisonment (please see Acts 18:3; 20:34-35 and I Cor. 4:12).

TV01:

One who teaches/pastors amongst the local congregation should have a full time job/business to meet his needs and the needs of his family. There is no notion of paid eldership. Everyone provides for his own family.

That there is no notion of paid eldership (as some suppose) does not mean that there is absolutely no teaching for the financial support of the elders in a local church. That is not something that an elder should claim by statutory rights; but there again, we cannot discount the fact that the local church was to be responsible in this service.

1 Tim. 5:17 & 18 - "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."

TV01:

Also pertinent to note is that eldership is always in the plural and the burden of pastoring/teaching shared amongst elders accordsing to gifting and maturity.

Ok.

TV01:

Freewill gifts to one who ministers is fine, although that should not take precedence over a real physical need, should not be cooerced or in any way taught as required by God or necessary to recieve a blessing.

True, issues on maney matters as pertaining to any form of giving is not coerced in Scripture. However, the Bible certainly teaches that our financial giving brings some blessings to the givers.

Cheers.

donduke:

giving to the poor is not a good replacement to giving too the church and for missions. Yes, we are to help those less priviledged among us.

We are also to give towards to spread of the gospel. It means more if one more person puts faith in Christ than when one more mouth is fed with physical food. You could give to a thousand poor like many social groups are doing today but will never touch God's heart as when your giving moves the gospel further.

I know most of us are distracted by pastors who use offerings to live big. Without judging them because most of them who bellieve and teach tithing do so out of ignorance. WATCH YOURSELVES: giving for the work of mininstry is important and all Christians should do it as a duty. If you would rather give to the poor and if the last consideration is the church, you are not giving like Christians are commanded in scripture to do.

I speak boldly about this because I do not believe in tithing. my church's income is terriibly low because of this belief and because people preferr to be 'taxed' and levied. And I won't. I have no second thoughts about it, I have studied the Bible and I know it is clearly not a New Testament practice. Really, most preachers who hammer on tithes, tithes, tithes, do not know that there were three kinds of tithes. 1. for the upkeep of the levitess who were not to do any work except temple service. They owned no land, etc. 2. for the maintenance of the temple. 3. for the poor. THE POOR! The tithe was for them too. Who are the levites today? I don't see them.

Quick question: Can you really keep track of your income and pay your tithes accurately? I ask because some of you really want to be taxed rather than to love your God willingly.

Anyhow, I hope someone is being helped here. Take care and God bless you.

how many churches really spread the gospel to remote places, I can't picture your modern day pastor, suit , jerry curls and all that being a missionary in some remote village.What they call spreading the gospel these days, i call popularity contest. "Am on TBN, I can heal more than you do, I wear better suits"
Q2: how many churches have welfare schemes ?apart from a few orthodox and catholic churches
its so sad that most people are even afraid to reason. Pastors use your money to buy flashy cars and live out of this world lives yet you likely an unemployed graduate, give them money you don't have to maintain their lifestyles. Me i see right through them
Have you not heard the song" what so ever you do to the list of my brethren that you do unto me,
when i was hungry, u gave me to eat
when i was thirsty, u gave me a drink,
now enter into the rest of my father.
or the hymn
fading away like a star in the morningyou are only remembered for wat u have done.
only the lives you have touched.
Most of these churches i cant give my dime too. its disspeakable what they do with money poor people searching for miracles give them.
Giving to churches people think it is money doubling, give 1000, God will give you 10000000

@the uksilent1

yep , u and ur big mouth

like the other thread on tithes wasn't long enuf

has any one noticed that threads on money, sex and power no dey run dry
besides that @uksilent1

Thanks for the piece, enlightening i've gotten somethings sorted out.

I'm outta here, before this thread turns into same old same

donduke:

giving to the poor is not a good replacement to giving too the church and for missions.

Very true. I wonder how many people have actually taken the time to understand why the NT never mixes these types of giving?

The New Testament never mentions tithing. Why is this not an issue?

Seun:

The New Testament never mentions tithing. Why is this not an issue?

To be sure, it is an issue for discussion; but the NT mentions tithing, to be sure:

Matt. 23:23 Luke 11:42 Luke 18:12 Heb. 7:5, 6, 8, 9.

In these instances, they're not commandments for the NT believer to tithe; but as far as mentioning them is concerned, yes indeed, the NT mentions tithes/tithing.

However, the question should not just be a matter of whether or not we should give/tithe. It is more a matter of how we should understand what any type of giving (including tithing) represents. Once we come round seeing this, most of what have been advanced as arguments against tithing will show up for what they really are: weak.

i pay mine without stress and God is blessing me real good.