when we cannot manage our road, power, school. how much less artifact

i agree.

We can always log on to the internet to see it or visit the UK if so desperate to see it.

quite correct.

I learnt about most of these artefacts when i was young. My dad had a book about them.





@ topic

if they like they should keep it. If they like, they should return it.

They're the ones placing a monetary value on these things.

I wonder why some 'Nigerians' seem to be agitated about the future auction of a Bini 'Art' perhaps to the highest bidder. Expecting the 'Nigerian' government to react/Act purposefully like the Iranian people/government is a little too high minded.  Well, sorry folks, your government cannot and perhaps will never be comparable to Iran, let alone be seen as serious by purposeful nations/people especially the British on whose watch most of the so-called 'loot' are under guard. Nigerian administrators are perhaps the most unpatriotic/ unaware 'leaders' in the world. Amongst their topmost desires besides sending their family(children) abroad, dying abroad, owning properties abroad, very frequent meaningless foreign travels in search of 'investors' like OBJ, much of their personal assets are in 'Enemy' territory. Nigerian leaders do not have any sense of 'Responsibility' whatsoever to the nation/people but to 'Self.' Certainly, Nigerian "leaders", do not have any knowledge/ Sense of 'history' nor as an important adjunct to national development or 'war of liberation' It's a bit rich for most people to expect much from a people/government not accountable to anybody, to worry about some 'Art' from Bini Kingdom. The government/people do not see the 'big picture' beyond their very narrow definition of what's 'important' to their selfish whims.  Historical 'artefacts' do not feature in the realm of importance to small minds and unserious people. Whatever internet Nigerians may think, especially those of them residing abroad, perhaps, will agree that the government/people of Iran understand the purpose of Nation building/Nationalism and the special place 'everything' including 'Artefacts' play in moulding a positive national psyche. Can 'Nigerians' be said to be proud of their so called nation/leadership wholeheartedly? Everything is for sale in Nigeria & by the Nigerians, so nobody is sure anymore if it is actually a 'loot' or war booty

how did iran enter this discussion?

i havent gone through the thread but may do so later.

pro01:

Well, simply referring to the exercise as 'murder' reflects a somewhat biased perspective to the matter - in that it does not address the fact that the bini people had also 'murdered' a previous British 'delegation'. . .which was what led to a retaliation as it were. Again, see why it *may* be jusfifiable from the point of view of the Brits:

I can't remember the complete story, but think they were killed--you call it massacre--because they had flouted the order from the palace that the Oba couldn't entertain visitors at that time.

@tpia1 -Iran got into the conversation/discussion because the Nigerians were making reference to Iran/ wishing that their own government will respond/Act like the Iranians -in similar incident pertaining to the eventual return of looted Persian/Iranian Artefacts by the British/museum.

@Pro01- Were the so-called British 'delegation' to the Bini kingdom invited? If they were, the Oba/Bini reserve the right to renege or postpone meetings because of other pressing State matters. So called modern governments postpone state visits/meetings without notice in contemporary times too. Why did such request to the British disobeyed? Intransigence and contempt by the British can only be the explanation for the wars against the illustrious valiant Bini/Africans. Did the Portuguese, who encountered the Bini before the marauding British, not show enormous decorum and respect for the laws of the land and people they encountered in their journeys of 'discovery' ? A little knowledge of our local history will do us all some good perhaps it'll help our choice of words in this discourse/conversation. Nigerians should discuss local history without tribal prejudice/affiliation as to who's right/wrong or whether it's a National treasure or relegated to just another, 'the problem of the Oba/Bini' alone. It's truly sad indeed.

PhysicsQED:

It is only an extremely idiotic subhuman waste of space like yourself that would assume that a politically stable regime was a necessity for citizens of a country to lay the foundations for scientific and industrial revolutions in their country.

British did not wait for government stability to embark on the industrial or scientific revolution you subhuman shitbrained son of scammers.

British foundation of their science revolution was the Royal Society, founded and taking off during periods of deep political instability, monarchic succession disputes, and great poverty and economic weakness. Its predecessor was meetings of scientists right before and during the English civil war!!!!


British independent scientists and inventors embarked on the industrial revolution. Not fu-cking government sponsored research institutions or individuals. Does your brainless backside  actually think government allocations towards invention spurred the Industrial Revolution or that alleged governmental and political stability created the economic demand that brought about the inventions and advances of the industrial revolution?

Tell me, Neanderthal emperor, does the invention of the steam engine in an era of religious intolerance and persecution, violent religious mobs, attempted assassinations of monarchs, the Jacobite uprisings, loss of American colonies, the later looming threat of invasion by a Napoleon at the height of his power which even forced money to be channeled only into the non-research war effort, just come about magically because of supposed stability?


Tell me Neanderthal Augustus, when did government allocate money to Jethro Tull to bring about the agricultural breakthroughs in England?

What was allocated to Andrew Meikle, dwarf Neanderthal professor?

To Robert Bakewell?

Tell me, baboon fieldmarshal of all revolutionary baboons, what was allocated to Dutch agricultural scientists who introduced their technology to Britain?

Tell me, oaf of all oafs, El Oaf Campeador, what money was allocated to James Watt, Michael Faraday, Charles Wheatstone, William Murdoch,Thomas Newcomen, BEFORE they embarked on their revolutionary innovations?

Tell me Orangutan Caesar, what was the supposed stability William Gilbert, William Harvey, John Napier, Francis Bacon, and others experienced when their governments were switching faster than lightning and assassination plots, religious mobs, illiteracy, and peasantry were abundant?


The bases for the original industrial and agricultural revolution are varied, but the most significant thing was demand. The demand for food and textiles, amongst other things, by a gradually growing population, for technology to make food production and manufacturing easier, was the major cause of these revolutions, not some British choice to embark on innovation because of their unstable standoff between absolutist monarchs and an increasingly powerful parliament and ever changing and whimsical monarchical governments or the LACK of economic prosperity amongst the majority of the population.



Now if technology can be developed to meet that demand, then it will be developed. Talk of government stability being the real cause of scientists or inventors meeting the need of societal demand or the continuation of prior intellectual exploration is daft. There's always money and progress to be made, you dunce.




What utter stupidity. More and more unfounded assumptions.

This captures reality better:

"You know what the fellow said – in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."- Orson Welles

If there are no scientists and innovators but enormous political stability, a country will be no different from several Middle Eastern countries, stable politically, mostly provident for its citizenry with oil money, but with NO SIGNIFICANT POWER, and going nowhere technologically and hence irrelevant to what I said about bringing science to bear in Africa to ensure that in the future Africa is not the exploited slave of some external power and not dependent on the West for everything.


Science and technology thrived in France during every part of the upheavals prior to the overthrow and restorations of the Bourbons and before and after the French Revolution and during and after the Napoleonic era and before and during and after the illegitimate authoritarian rule of self-proclaimed emperor Napoleon III which culminated in a French thrashing in 1870 through his silly military adventurism.


Science took off in China well before the Communists beat the Nationalists, well before the Warlord Era was at a close and this laid the foundation for the success they are enjoying today, with regards to modern technology.

The Science Society of China, the Academia Sinica, the sponsoring by families of Chinese students to acquire Western scientific expertise, the Tsinghua University, the establishment of multiple Chinese research institutions, all occurred during periods of  EXTREME political and economic uncertainty, poverty, and governmental instability, not after the authoritarian Communists beat the corrupt authoritarian Nationalists or the corrupt authoritarian Nationalists beat the Warlords.

But your idiotic self would suggest that they waited until the economic and political stability of post-1949 to lay the foundation for their later success!!! Ironically the anti-intellectual, anti-science, anti- industry disastrous Cultural Revolution of China, which closed universities, arrested scientists, and stifled theory and rational thought, was launched after political stability had finally been attained!!

Even funnier, you mention nationalism yet you're the degenerate with so little respect for Nigerians that you advocate the transfer of African cultural treasures to European collectors and auction houses out of fear and self-loathing. This is pathetically ironic.





Your brainless self actually said you don't need science and tech in Nigeria under the moronic assumption that science and technology just springs up under stability without individuals pursuing it and MAKING it relevant to the government so that the government can take an increased interest in and support further researches after the initial foundations are laid by innovators themselves. Like the dunce you are you just assumed government,and not private initiative, is the foundation and starting point (the "crawling" before "walking" for obtaining technical and scientific competence necessary for development, when all of history says completely differently, because of your welfare loser mindset.


What you still haven't grasped, is that in emerging from the developing stage to the developed stage, application of science and technology to development is crucial in ensuring that economic progress and standards of living are improved, so saying you don't need science and tech but then hoping arms can overthrow corrupt government  is equivalent to putting a government in power that is supposed to deliver on development with no relevant human capital!!


No means to reach the level of development which morons like you think magically comes about from good government; another third world South American banana republic, transplanted to Africa. Scientifically and technologically illiterate, and blaming their government for not being able to turn their immediate communities into anything more than  17th century societies with "futuristic" not understood trinkets sprinkled about imported from foreign intellectual overlords and with weak economic output incapable of supporting their excessive population.

An army of  intellectual revolutionaries cannot change a country from a consumer nation to a manufacturing or producing nation you cockroach, it cannot change a nation lagging behind the technologically developed world into one able to compete economically on the same level with countries that have agricultural scientists, industrial engineers, electrical engineers, computer scientists, manufacturing engineers, and the chemical engineers that make the plastics your scientifically illiterate revolutionary Nigerian backside will still import, and so much more. Has it not occurred to your brainless backside that the Nigerian government, corrupt or clean, holy or depraved, CANNOT somehow provide all employment, services, etc. that lead to the standard of life and widespread economic prosperity that would allow the support for science and technology that lead to a situation like America's, where massive tax money supports almost all significant science/technology research? So saying one needs to wait for governmental change, by revolutionaries or otherwise, is enormously daft. After change, you will still be a technological, scientific, nothing.

The onus is entirely on private individuals to take the first steps in making their country scientifically competent or developed, not the phantom hand of government.


Holy and anointed Neanderthal emperor, get your facts right, you will be economically owned and exploited and dependent and taking marching orders from your technological superiors in this your future where, being far too daft to engage in any long-term planning, your intellectuals wait for the perfect political climate to embark on acquiring knowledge, and your mates in Asia and the West whose individuals laid their foundations during warfare internal and external, during whimsical, rapidly changing governments, and widespread economic uncertainty and instability, will go on to construct the new economy, and you'll be right back to trying to order and "correctly" rule society before you even have the technical capacity to make anything out of it other than a banana republic.

It hasn't even occurred to your brainless backside that diversifying the economy so as to not be dependent on oil would even necessarily bring about a political reorientation and restructuring of this country that would destroy the current status quo, and that this diversified economy is directly dependent on mechanization of agriculture, development of manufacturing, and industrialization through private initiative!!!



What are YOU doing to improve your country? Scamming, begging UK for welfare? What companies do you own? What companies, institutions, do you plan to start? What have you done to stop the local graft and bribery culture which is the actual reason your politicians are corrupt before and/or when they get elected?

You're just another welfare loser sitting around whining about the government ruining your life when you don't even have the competence to see if you can do anything about the electricity, the roads, the low manufacturing capacity, the lack of agricultural mechanization, the weak textile industry, and so much more despite being in a position to do so much more than those without the economic or educational resources and opportunities you were given.



What you have done except suggest that those that actually want to put their minds towards any real and tangible goals need to quit to launch some vague military revolution? You're a blowhard. I have immediate and future plans and the will to act on them. You have a history of scamming and conspiracy theory obsessions while sitting back to type bullshit about picking up arms.


And by the way, for the good of humanity, don't reproduce. We don't need anymore scammers or welfare dons in this world, and especially not as Nigerians.


And merry Christmas, dumbass.

who  the heck do you think is going to read all the 'thesis' that you regurgitated up there ? i got short attention span fool. i aint finna read all dat mess you vomitted up there mayne    you must be out your rabid midget mind if you think am finna spend my xmas reading the rants of a deranged blow-hard
and try not to choke on the xmas turkey cuz it takes braincells to chew properly.

And merry Xmas,  knuckle dragging prehistoric curmudgeon

A rich nigerian artifact collector shl bid for d item,comply with d initial procedures, collect d item then refuse to pay up like d chinese got back one of their looted artifact from d french recntly. We ve to learn to crack these peeps not just yapping.

I would suggest that bini indigenes along with their government put up funds to buy it back.

redsun:

A rich nigerian artifact collector shl bid for d item,comply with d initial procedures, collect d item then refuse to pay up like d chinese got back one of their looted artifact from d french recntly. We ve to learn to crack these peeps not just yapping.

lmao those chinese people are gangsters. i remember in 2005, britain was trying to sell one of its car company's because they were not making profit. i cant quite remember which one it was now but i think it was rover (or jaguar). i think it was rover (not 100 percent sure ). anyway the chinese delegate came in, they locked themselves up in the same room with the british negotiators, then i think one of them had some kinda gas in his briefacse that makes people go all giddy and jolly and incoherent. anyway while the british men were gassed up, the chinese men quickly made them sign a piece of paper then the chinese were outta there. it was while the chinese were on the plane back to beijing that the british realized that they had just sold the car company to the chinese business men for $1 . they all wailed and weeped but it was too late. TRUE STORY

Ojiani:

I would suggest that bini indigenes along with their government put up funds to buy it back.

You cant be serious. buy back what was stolen from you ? they shouldnt waste money buying back what they may not maintain. either get the british to give it back or look for alternative ways of stealing back from them.

buzugee:

You cant be serious. buy back what was stolen from you ? they shouldnt waste money buying back what they may not maintain. either get the british to give it back or look for alternative ways of stealing back from them.

They've been fighting this in court for years;however, the people who are judging the case and who are to make the decision on if it should go back to the binis are also the british thieves so there is no way they are going to rule in the favor of nigeria.Also, you and I both know that there is no way in hell that they are steeling that mask.

Ojiani:

They've been fighting this in court for years;however, the people who are judging the case and who are to make the decision on if it should go back to the binis are also the british thieves so there is no way they are going to rule in the favor of nigeria.Also, you and I both know that there is no way in hell that they are steeling that mask.

oh well i guess the 1 million nigerians scrounging in england is enough comprensation for a dingy mask JK

buzugee:

who  the heck do you think is going to read all the 'thesis' that you regurgitated up there ?

Thesis? Dumbass, I've casually written much longer papers in minutes for simple high school reports and assignments. Did you even graduate high school? Or did you go straight into scamming from the cradle?

i got short attention span fool.

Of course you do. You also have an extremely tiny brain.

i aint finna read all dat mess you vomitted up there mayne

"Mayne"? This coming from a revolutionary. You're just so dumb it's unbelievable.


 

  you must be out your rabid midget mind if you think am finna spend my xmas reading the rants of a deranged blow-hard

I'm educating you, baboon. I accept your thanks, baboon. It's better than spending your Christmas composing Christmas email scams to steal charity money from unsuspecting Brits like you usually do.

and try not to choke on the xmas turkey cuz it takes braincells to chew properly.

Try not to slip on your own shit when next you start slinging it around, you monkey.

And merry Xmas,  knuckle dragging prehistoric curmudgeon

Happy holidays, buzugee the baboon revolutionary.

It's good that when soundly thrashed with facts and confronted with reality, you just degenerate into insults and don't try to argue blindly. Wouldn't want you to try to tax the little brainpower a monkey like you can muster.

PhysicsQED:

Thesis? Dumbass, I've casually written much longer papers in minutes for simple high school reports and assignments. Did you even graduate high school? Or did you go straight into scamming from the cradle?



Of course you do. You also have an extremely tiny brain.

"Mayne"? This coming from a revolutionary. You're just so dumb it's unbelievable.


 
I'm educating you, baboon. I accept your thanks, baboon. It's better than spending your Christmas composing Christmas email scams to steal charity money from unsuspecting Brits like you usually do.



Try not to slip on your own poo when next you start slinging it around, you monkey.


Happy holidays, buzugee the baboon revolutionary.

It's good that when soundly thrashed with facts and confronted with reality, you just degenerate into insults and don't try to argue blindly. Wouldn't want you to try to tax the little brainpower a monkey like you can muster.

so you took the time to dissect everything i said and offer responses to each tiny section ? so this is what unemployment and boredom looks like ?

Let them sell it jare. Even is the corrupt authourities bring it back here, them go still sell am to the white man and the proceeds goes into oblivion.

Naija has now become a joke, that they west dare auction icons of heritage plundered years ago right infront of the eyes of the nation. They didnt even go underground to some black market. It is well. Im sure David Mark and the rest of the senators are not moved. . . or wait, the price tag could move them.

It appears that Nigerians are alienated/unpatriotic indeed, because it's not a 'nation state' yet, where the citizens have a shared sense of belonging let alone enthusiasm for her historical artefacts. From the posts on this forum and others like it about Nigeria, it saddens me to conclude that Nigerians do not have faith in their 'country' . Perhaps, it would've been great if the British had recognised the ancient kingdom of Benin as the independent nation state it was before the colonial amalgamation into what is now modern Nigeria. Most people on this forum like the Nigerian government, somehow, do not view the Bini Artefact as national treasure hence most people are treating it with levity; see it as just a Bini issue as if it is not an important part of modern Nigeria/history. Shame!

Who said the Briticos are good ! They'll only slap us peel the skin off our face and sprinkle salt into it. They are quick to say we are bad but will not relinquish the stolen stuffs from allover the world back to their origin. But I surely know that their long throat and total hatred for Africans with preference for the Asians is really doing them in . The spirits of our ancestors will continue to ask them and retributions of their long looting and connivance with the local bandits who steal our monies and wealth to develop their land will come to them soon. "He that is down needs fear no fall ". That is where we in Benin land dey now. You know say their country don dey broke and they 'll need all monies to remain afloat. Our ancestors are watching

Nigeria is not a country,she is a giant piece of cake that is hungrily devoured by criminally  and"retardedly" minded tribal bigots.

KDULAR:

Who said the Briticos are good ! They'll only slap us peel the skin off our face and sprinkle salt into it. They are quick to say we are bad but will not relinquish the stolen stuffs from allover the world back to their origin. But I surely know that their long throat and total hatred for Africans with preference for the Asians is really doing them in . The spirits of our ancestors will continue to ask them and retributions of their long looting and connivance with the local bandits who steal our monies and wealth to develop their land will come to them soon. "He that is down needs fear no fall ". That is where we in Benin land dey now. You know say their country don dey broke and they 'll need all monies to remain afloat. Our ancestors are watching

Ancestors that are still dealing with corruption in the land. The heritage and monies that are being stolen from within nko? Our ppl wanted to sell off the National Theatre at Igamu, didnt u hear that one? Ancestors are busy within.

pro01:

Well, simply referring to the exercise as 'murder' reflects a somewhat biased perspective to the matter - in that it does not address the fact that the bini people had also 'murdered' a previous British 'delegation'. . .which was what led to a retaliation as it were. Again, see why it *may* be jusfifiable from the point of view of the Brits:

That's where common sense comes in . . . there is self defense/war and there are massacres.
Even British law takes the amount of strength on each side into consideration in murder cases and wars have war crimes.

Ahem so dis is how dey bruise my ancestors abi

If I recall correctly the Oba of Benin stated, 'These Benin bronze serves as chapters in our history book. They were not made to be exhibited'.

Oyinbo abegi wetin be dey own cause sef? dem call dey own theif theif 'collectors items' when countri man do im own dem go dey hala constitution after constitution.

Is this not sacrilege? dey own 419 pass 3 digits o

Hhmmmmmmmm me sef I no sabi which one be worse - upperclass snobs molesting my ancestors craft or hillbilly trailer trash dumping my ancestors work

abeg come spy yeye people wey 'own' our Benin bronze before:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TelNsZ9ocUU&feature=player_embedded



P.S. I'm angry and crying at these ugly smilies no be these yeye people o.

eldee:

That's where common sense comes in . . . there is self defense/war and there are massacres.
Even British law takes the amount of strength on each side into consideration in murder cases and wars have war crimes.

Yes, but had Benin ever attacked any group of visiting Europeans prior to that?

Do "delegations" of political representatives coming to argue for the respecting of treaties or for trade agreements number over 200 people?

Do large "delegations" of 200+, when repeatedly told to turn back and come back later or delay for a few days so that accommodation for visitation could be made, refuse and insist and defiantly push into a country? Does British common sense and law or any other say that this is acceptable protocol for a political delegation? Just asking.

The Benin leaders employed common sense here and the letters showing the true intentions of the British showed that the very reasonable interpretation of the Benin leadership was right on the money.

It was only a "massacre" because James Phillips thought he and his other officers would only have to get into the palace, pull out their revolvers and depose the Oba by force and replace him with a warrant chief who agreed to kowtow to the British. The British party that was ambushed was still not a friendly or non-hostile group.

PhysicsQED:

Yes, but had Benin ever attacked any group of visiting Europeans prior to that?

Do "delegations" of political representatives coming to argue for the respecting of treaties or for trade agreements number over 200 people?

Do large "delegations" of 200+, when repeatedly told to turn back and come back later or delay for a few days so that accommodation for visitation could be made, refuse and insist and defiantly push into a country? Does British common sense and law or any other say that this is acceptable protocol for a political delegation? Just asking.

The Benin leaders employed common sense here and the letters showing the true intentions of the British showed that the very reasonable interpretation of the Benin leadership was right on the money.

It was only a "massacre" because James Phillips thought he and his other officers would only have to get into the palace, pull out their revolvers and depose the Oba by force and replace him with a warrant chief who agreed to kowtow to the British. The British party that was ambushed was still not a friendly or non-hostile group.

That's exactly what I was saying . . . the term 'punitive expedition' robs the event of the cruel and unjust anhilation of an Empire that existed on it's own.
There's nowhere in International law that justifies setting up an army just because the Bini people refused to sign a treaty.

Oh okay. I guess I misinterpreted your post then.

The auction has been called off.

Victory for great Bini history and tradition.

Oba gha to kpere Ise.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/art/news/sothebys-cancels-sale-of-looted-benin-mask-2171125.html

Let em keep the blasted thing jare