Does faith and faith alone justify us in God’s sight, or must we also do good works if we are to be saved?

The Pauline Epistle to the Romans takes the former position, and defends it by citing the story of the Old Testament patriarch, Abraham, whom God asked to sacrifice his son Isaac as a proof of his faithfulness:

“If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’…. It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.”
—Romans 4:2,3,13 (NIV)

However, somewhat amusingly, the Epistle of James cites the same story in defense of its own position, but draws the exact opposite lesson from it!

“Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,’ and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”
—James 2:21-24 (NIV)

In the New Testament, good works are often considered to be synonymous with following the Jewish law, and in the early days of Christianity, fierce debates often raged over whether that law still needed to be followed. The Pauline letters generally held that the Old Testament law had been abolished (see Galatians 2:16, 3:11-12); but in another amusing Biblical self-contradiction, one which raises the specter of interpolation, the book of Romans cannot agree even with itself on this issue.

“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin…. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.”
—Romans 3:20,28 (NIV, emphasis added)

versus

“All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.”
—Romans 2:12,13 (NIV, emphasis added)

A starker contradiction could scarcely be imagined. Romans 3 says that no one who obeys the Jewish law will be declared righteous, but that a man is justified by faith without observing the law. Romans 2 says the polar opposite, that those who obey the law will be declared righteous, and that a man who merely hears the law without following it (i.e., someone who tries to justify themself through faith alone) will be duly punished.

The gospels contain one more contradiction on the issue of faith vs. good works. This one is due to Jesus Christ himself, and centers around the matter of a glaring inconsistency between Jesus’ words and his deeds.

In Matthew 19, a young man comes to Jesus and asks what he must do that he may be granted eternal life in Heaven. Jesus lists five of the Ten Commandments and tells him to make sure to keep them. The young man replies that he has done so, and asks if there is anything else he must do.

“Jesus answered, ‘If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'”
—Matthew 19:21 (NIV)

This endorsement of good works as a means to attain Heaven raises some difficulties for those who would argue that faith alone is sufficient for salvation. But leave that issue aside for the moment. Keeping in mind Jesus’ advice here, skip ahead to two days before Jesus’ arrest and crucifixion. Mark chapter 14 relates a very unusual incident at this point in his life:

“While he was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head. Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, ‘Why this waste of perfume? It could have been sold for more than a year’s wages and the money given to the poor.’ And they rebuked her harshly.

‘Leave her alone,’ said Jesus. ‘Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me. She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body beforehand to prepare for my burial. I tell you the truth, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.'”
—Mark 14:3-9 (NIV)

“Do as I say, not as I do” does not seem to have been included among the Son of Man’s teachings, and so the disciples’ puzzled and angry reaction to this incident is fully understandable. When a woman anointed Jesus with lavishly expensive perfume, the disciples doubtless thought they were only following his teachings when they chastised her for this waste of money that could otherwise have been spent on more worthy causes. But then Jesus leaps to the woman’s defense, rebuking the disciples as though they had done something wrong by pointing this out, and rather selfishly saying he should get to enjoy it since he would be gone soon anyway. (In line with the theory that Mark’s was the first gospel and that later writers took it upon themselves to “correct” his theologically difficult passages, John 12 portrays Judas as saying this because he wanted to steal the money for himself. This does not alter the underlying moral, however, nor does it solve the inconsistency.)

No apologist source that I am aware of addresses the apparent discrepancy between the strict rules Jesus enjoined others to follow and this wasteful indulgence he granted himself. Like many others in the Bible, this contradiction must be marked as unresolved.

Bro kindly revisit your moniker whoever you are. I don't think you are strong enough to associate with this name.
Anti- Christ/ ian
Check for the.meaning in the dictionary. The Antichrist and Antichristian wl do same work. Let's know if you are both.

pipeewa:
Bro kindly revisit your moniker whoever you are. I don't think you are strong enough to associate with this name.
Anti- Christ/ ian
Check for the.meaning in the dictionary. The Antichrist and Antichristian wl do same work. Let's know if you are both.

In the dictionary Anti Christian:

adjective
1.
opposed to Christianity or Christian values.
2.

---

relating to the Antichrist.

---

Antichrist

noun
1. (in some Christian teachings)

---

a personal opponent of Christ expected to appear before the end of the world.

---

"the battle between Christ and the Antichrist"
2. a person or force seen as opposing Christ or the Christian Church.
plural noun: Antichrists
"St Paul really did have to fear for his life at the hands of an Antichrist named Nero"
3. a person or thing regarded as supremely evil or as a fundamental enemy or opponent.
"I see the media as the Antichrist"

The meanings in red may be applicable to me!

AntiChristian:


In the dictionary Anti Christian:

adjective
1.
opposed to Christianity or Christian values.
2.

---

relating to the Antichrist.

---

Antichrist

noun
1. (in some Christian teachings)

---

a personal opponent of Christ expected to appear before the end of the world.

---

"the battle between Christ and the Antichrist"
2. a person or force seen as opposing Christ or the Christian Church.
plural noun: Antichrists
"St Paul really did have to fear for his life at the hands of an Antichrist named Nero"
3. a person or thing regarded as supremely evil or as a fundamental enemy or opponent.
"I see the media as the Antichrist"

The meanings in red may be applicable to me!

There is no use redefining your name. Jesus says who ever receives the disciples in my name receives me. The disciples started the Christian church. So opposing the church shows you oppose Jesus.

fortran12:


There is no use redefining your name. Jesus says who ever receives the disciples in my name receives me. The disciples started the Christian church. So opposing the church shows you oppose Jesus.

Who are the Disciples Jesus was saying? Does this include Paul?

Of cos I'm against your form of Jesus.

FAITH without WORK is dead! James 2:26

So think over that properly and try to work it out for yourself if Islam fits into this topic!

Remember, all the things you believe in Islam is just based on faith and faith alone!

But if you truthfully believe in WORKS, please enlighten me by presenting the fine works that Islam teaches and let's discuss on such fine works.

Thanks!

AntiChristian:


Who are the Disciples Jesus was saying? Does this include Paul?

Of cos I'm against your form of Jesus.

You against Paul when your quran even mentioned that Paul was sent to the gentiles and was a messenger of allah (sura 36 0 ). Even the disciples of Jesus acknowledged Paul and his teachings of Jesus.
Even if we leave Paul out of the equation, you still deny Jesus as he said he is the only was in John 3 vs 16. The verse i quoted "Very truly I tell you, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me." John 13 vs 20 is by Jesus ,have u accepted Peter , John or even James message?
"

fortran12:


You against Paul when your quran even mentioned that Paul was sent to the gentiles and was a messenger of allah (sura 36 0 ). Even the disciples of Jesus acknowledged Paul and his teachings of Jesus.
Even if we leave Paul out of the equation, you still deny Jesus as he said he is the only was in John 3 vs 16. The verse i quoted "Very truly I tell you, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me." John 13 vs 20 is by Jesus ,have u accepted Peter , John or even James message?
"

No verse of Qur'an approved of Paul. This is just one of your lies! What does Surah 36 0 mean? Better go and copy it well.

Jesus said whoever accepts anyone he sends....is it Jesus that sends Odumeje too?

The Jesus i know was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Muhammad was sent to the whole mankind!

AntiChristian:


No verse of Qur'an approved of Paul. This is just one of your lies! What does Surah 36 0 mean? Better go and copy it well.

Jesus said whoever accepts anyone he sends....is it Jesus that sends Odumeje too?

The Jesus i know was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Muhammad was sent to the whole mankind!

Lol. Lol. So u deny Paul. You claim there is no Paul in the quran. Somethin your hadiths mentioned. Read sura 36 and tell me who the messengers are.
You claim Jesus was only sent to Israel yet he healed gentiles. The people that showed the greatest faith even recognised by Jesus were gentiles and u claim he was sent only to Israel. In john 3 vs 16. Jesus did not mention Israel he mentioned the world.
And about Mohammed.sent to the world, i laugh. What did he come to do? A violent man who could not save himself, died from poison from the hands of a women he is not married to. He was condemned by his own words. He proved himself to be a false prophet.

fortran12:

There is no use redefining your name. Jesus says who ever receives the disciples in my name receives me. The disciples started the Christian church. So opposing the church shows you oppose Jesus.

Not true. The Disciples continued the works that Christ commanded them to do, greedy bishops and politicians started what you know of today as the Christian church. Your protestant movements and what not are simply offshoots of the roman church that existed for over 1200 year prior and many of those that started your protestant movements did so in order to claim some power from rome for themselves.

What you know as the "Christian church" today barely has any real roots with Christ, except probably claims that the church in rome was built atop the bones of Paul and Peter; claims which are not proven.

Kobojunkie:

Not true. The Disciples continued the works that Christ commanded them to do, greedy bishops and politicians started what you know of today as the Christian church. Your protestant movements and what not are simply offshoots of the roman church that existed for over 1200 year prior and many of those that started your protestant movements did so in order to claim some power from rome for themselves.

What you know as the "Christian church" today barely has any real roots with Christ, except probably claims that the church in rome was built atop the bones of Paul and Peter; claims which are not proven.

Are you claiming the disciples never founded a church? And didn't Jesus ask them to make disciples? So where do you think these people will congregate?
What is your proof the Roman church existed 1200 years before ( who christ or his disciples)

fortran12:

Are you claiming the disciples never founded a church? And didn't Jesus ask them to make disciples? So where do you think these people will congregate?

In each other's homes, or on street corners. The disciples never put up buildings which you like to call churches these. For you see, the church was the people and not the buildings you have come to assume today.

fortran12:

What is your proof the Roman church existed 1200 years before ( who christ or his disciples)

Existed about 1200 years prior to your protestant movements of today.

Kobojunkie:

In each other's homes, or on street corners. The disciples never put up buildings which you like to call churches these. For you see, the church was the people and not the buildings you have come to assume today.

Existed about 1200 years prior to your protestant movements of today.

So your issue is with buildings or what? Does the location matter? Now you have church via the internet. What matters is the content not the location.
I know the Roman Catholic church is a corruption of the original church and some of the splits from the Roman church went back to the original message.

fortran12:

So your issue is with buildings or what? .

My issue is mainly with the origin of the teachings that drive the belief. Are those teachings of Christ or doctrines created by men for the furthering of their ideals, their traditions and rules?

fortran12:

Does the location matter?

According to the Bible, the location of the "house of God" does matter. I mean the one and only building proclaimed the "house of God", existed in Jerusalem and it is suggested that at the very end, the building will go up again the same location.
As for his church, Christ never mentioned buildings as his church. His teachings pointed to the heart of man being were He and His Father would come in and make their home. So?

fortran12:

Now you have church via the internet. What matters is the content not the location.

Moving God online, a decision thanks to coronavirus, does not now correct ages old issues in teachings that formed the belief to begin with.

fortran12:

I know the Roman Catholic church is a corruption of the original church and some of the splits from the Roman church went back to the original message.

How can they go back to the original message when much of the fundamental doctrines the protestant movement adheres to were put forth by those who hijacked Christianity after the death of the disciples?
Did you know that Jesus came with a new religion for man, and He put forth 49 commands(My yoke is light...) for those who believe him(if you love me, you will keep my commandments) in the new covenant that he brung with him? How many of those 49 commandments do you know of? And how many of the many Churchians today are even aware of this?

Kobojunkie:

My issue is mainly with the origin of the teachings that drive the belief. Are those teachings of Christ or doctrines created by men for the furthering of their ideals, their traditions and rules?

According to the Bible, the location of the "house of God" does matter. I mean the one and only building proclaimed the "house of God", existed in Jerusalem and it is suggested that at the very end, the building will go up again the same location.
As for his church, Christ never mentioned buildings as his church. His teachings pointed to the heart of man being were He and His Father would come in and make their home. So?

Moving God online, a decision thanks to coronavirus, does not now correct ages old issues in teachings that formed the belief to begin with.

How can they go back to the original message when much of the fundamental doctrines the protestant movement adheres to were put forth by those who hijacked Christianity after the death of the disciples?
Did you know that Jesus came with a new religion for man, and He put forth 49 commands(My yoke is light...) for those who believe him(if you love me, you will keep my commandments) in the new covenant that he brung with him? How many of those 49 commandments do you know of? And how many of the many Churchians today are even aware of this?

What is your source for Jesus words?

fortran12:

What is your source for Jesus words?

There are only 4 known gospels of Jesus , are there not?

Kobojunkie:

There are only 4 known gospels of Jesus , are there not?

In these you will find the answers to all you seek. John 5 vs 12- 15 summarises one of the commandments of Jesus. Some of his disciples also wrote in the new Testament do u doubt their text too?

fortran12:

In these you will find the answers to all you seek. John 5 vs 12- 15 summarises one of the commandments of Jesus. Some of his disciples also wrote in the new Testament do u doubt their text too?

Which of his 49 commandment do you suppose the above summaries?

fortran12:
Some of his disciples also wrote in the new Testament do u doubt their text too?

I would rather,we focus first on Jesus' own words for the purpose of this since the foundation for anyone who claims to be His follower ought to be a clear and concise understanding of what the Truth, that is Jesus, is.

Kobojunkie:

Which of his 49 commandment do you suppose the above summaries?

I would rather,we focus first on Jesus' own words for the purpose of this since the foundation for anyone who claims to be His follower ought to be a clear and concise understanding of what the Truth, that is Jesus, is.

Okay what are the commandments then, cos Jesus asked his disciples to teach what they learnt. And hope you know its not all Jesus words that were written. If Peter and the rest wrote down what they learnt from Jesus and even acknowledged Paul's teachings as been of Jesus i see no reason why there is a problem with that.

fortran12:

Okay what are the commandments then, cos Jesus asked his disciples to teach what they learnt. And hope you know its not all Jesus words that were written.

May I suggest you look in to the gospels to learn for yourself. A hint for you.. start from Matthew 5. It goes on for at least up to Chapter 13.
That not all of Jesus's words were written, does not mean that His commands were not sufficiently covered in what is written.

fortran12:

If Peter and the rest wrote down what they learnt from Jesus and even acknowledged Paul's teachings as been of Jesus i see no reason why there is a problem with that.

Peter, and the rest obviously did not write down all they had learnt from Jesus. None of the disciples mentioned Paul by name in their epistles, so I would be careful to assume the teaching they acknowledged was in fact Paul's teachings.

Any teaching that stands in contrast with what Christ taught ought to be tossed out, isn't that so?

Kobojunkie:

May I suggest you look in to the gospels to learn for yourself. A hint for you.. start from Matthew 5. It goes on for at least up to Chapter 13.
That not all of Jesus's words were written, does not mean that His commands were not sufficiently covered in what is written.

Peter, and the rest obviously did not write down all they had learnt from Jesus. None of the disciples mentioned Paul by name in their epistles, so I would be careful to assume the teaching they acknowledged was in fact Paul's teachings.

Any teaching that stands in contrast with what Christ taught ought to be tossed out, isn't that so?

Peterl talked about Paul 2 Peter 3 vs 15. What did paul say that contradicts Jesus?

fortran12:

Peterl talked about Paul 2 Peter 3 vs 15.

My mistake!

fortran12:

What did paul say that contradicts Jesus?

I have said nothing about paul's words being in contradiction to that of Jesus. That exercise or attempt at such can wait till another thread. That said, I believe we are safe to focus solely on the foundational teachings of Christ and Christ alone since His truth should suffice in all things. Or don't you think so? Afterall, He is the way, the truth and the life!

Kobojunkie:

My mistake!

I have said nothing about paul's words being in contradiction to that of Jesus. That exercise or attempt at such can wait till another thread. That said, I believe we are safe to focus solely on the foundational teachings of Christ and Christ alone since His truth should suffice in all things. Or don't you think so? Afterall, He is the way, the truth and the life!

Ok no problem.

fortran12:


Lol. Lol. So u deny Paul. You claim there is no Paul in the quran. Somethin your hadiths mentioned. Read sura 36 and tell me who the messengers are.
You claim Jesus was only sent to Israel yet he healed gentiles. The people that showed the greatest faith even recognised by Jesus were gentiles and u claim he was sent only to Israel. In john 3 vs 16. Jesus did not mention Israel he mentioned the world.
And about Mohammed sent to the world, i laugh. What did he come to do? A violent man who could not save himself, died from poison from the hands of a women he is not married to. He was condemned by his own words. He proved himself to be a false prophet.

I know there's hatred in your blood. The next time you abuse our Prophet I will just report you to the mods. Moses, Joshua, David, etc were not violent right? Samson's hair was cut while in company of Delilah and he later committed suicide with his enemies. Samson too was a great killer for Jehovah. When will you condemn all of these people? Call David the ancestor of Jesus your God a killer! An adulterer!

In Qur'an 36:14 two messengers were sent and were denied and Allah sends a third. So is this Paul, Paul's father and then his uncle the three messengers? Kindly bring where there names where mentioned.

It's either Jesus was a liar or you are the liar!

Mat 15:23-24
But Jesus did not answer a word. So His disciples came and urged Him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” 24He (Jesus) answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus was later forced to heal the woman but it is apparent he was not sent to her!

AntiChristian:


I know there's hatred in your blood. The next time you abuse our Prophet I will just report you to the mods. Moses, Joshua, David, etc were not violent right? Samson's hair was cut while in company of Delilah and he later committed suicide with his enemies. Samson too was a great killer for Jehovah. When will you condemn all of these people? Call David the ancestor of Jesus your God a killer! An adulterer!

In Qur'an 36:14 two messengers were sent and were denied and Allah sends a third. So is this Paul, Paul's father and then his uncle the three messengers? Kindly bring where there names where mentioned.

It's either Jesus was a liar or you are the liar!

Mat 15:23-24
But Jesus did not answer a word. So His disciples came and urged Him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” 24He (Jesus) answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus was later forced to heal the woman but it is apparent he was not sent to her!

Why are you running to the mods. Tell me what lie i have said about your prophet. You know it's embarrassing when you hear the truth from you own books about your prophet.
Of course no one was perfect in the bible except Jesus. We do not base our salvation on samson or Moses but on Jesus the perfect sacrifice.
You expect cos someone was mentioned in the bible he should be pure etc, you forget they were all human with flaws. Abraham was a liar, Moses a murderer, David a murderer and adulterer, but God had to move through people to ensure the birth of Jesus. Jesus came in via Mary but the seed in Mary was not from any of the men listed above. It was divine.
About the verse you quoted, you can't force Jesus, its impossible. Always tell the full story not cherry picking. In the whole passage there was nothing about anyone forcing Jesus. Jesus in John 3 vs 16 talks of the world. And there is also a theory of adoption i will explain whn i am chanced.

AntiChristian:


I know there's hatred in your blood. The next time you abuse our Prophet I will just report you to the mods. Moses, Joshua, David, etc were not violent right? Samson's hair was cut while in company of Delilah and he later committed suicide with his enemies. Samson too was a great killer for Jehovah. When will you condemn all of these people? Call David the ancestor of Jesus your God a killer! An adulterer!

In Qur'an 36:14 two messengers were sent and were denied and Allah sends a third. So is this Paul, Paul's father and then his uncle the three messengers? Kindly bring where there names where mentioned.

It's either Jesus was a liar or you are the liar!

Mat 15:23-24
But Jesus did not answer a word. So His disciples came and urged Him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” 24He (Jesus) answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus was later forced to heal the woman but it is apparent he was not sent to her!

Do you now accept Paul or i fabricated his existence in the Qur'an?

fortran12:

Do you now accept Paul or i fabricated his existence in the Qur'an?

Paul is unknown in Islam. It is a lie and figment of your imagination.

AntiChristian:


Paul is unknown in Islam. It is a lie and figment of your imagination.

Despite quoting from sura 36? Why do u argue with your scholars. What does your opinion matter? I will send the refenece soon