Welcome, Guest: Register On Nairaland / LOGIN! / Trending / Recent / New
Stats: 3,153,079 members, 7,818,233 topics. Date: Sunday, 05 May 2024 at 10:50 AM

A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents - Religion (9) - Nairaland

Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents (9037 Views)

Sincere Adherents Of Abrahamic Religions, Why Bother? / The Mental Disorder Called Atheism. Must Read For All Nairaland Christians / Top Religions In Nigeria And The Numbers Of Their Adherents (2) (3) (4)

(1) (2) (3) ... (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) (11) (Reply) (Go Down)

Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by sonmvayina(m): 11:40am On May 25, 2020
shadeyinka:

God has always been merciful. He allowed everyone to choose to consciously accept or reject Him.

Atheists need a physical God they can weigh on a laboratory scale. A god that can be confined inside a test tube. Unfortunately, they will turn around to say "that can't be a god it is our servant."

Unfortunately, God isn't physical: God is a SPIRIT!

It is the personification of this spirit that religionists term God.. They give the spirit human attributes to pass a message that we are part of it and he is part of us.. Since one attribute of this spirit is omnipresent

1 Like

Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by shadeyinka(m): 1:02pm On May 25, 2020
sonmvayina:


It is the personification of this spirit that religionists term God.. They give the spirit human attributes to pass a message that we are part of it and he is part of us.. Since one attribute of this spirit is omnipresent
Interestingly, it is humans who are given limited attributes of God.
Gen 1:26:
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

It is not strange that the AI robot Sophia was made with synthetic rubber, steel, plastics and silicon but in the image of man and with capabilities that only man can have.
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 2:08pm On May 25, 2020
I collapsed that last post on this thread by @Shadeyinka. Don't want any imaginary nonsense here please.

You have failed to prove your case when given the chance, best to leave it at that!

The book i was writing has really affected this thread, but i will be back to spit it back in the abundance... This thread is for the ages, and I will make it so.

Regards!!

2 Likes

Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 2:12pm On May 25, 2020
sonmvayina:


It is the personification of this spirit that religionists term God.. They give the spirit human attributes to pass a message that we are part of it and he is part of us.. Since one attribute of this spirit is omnipresent
The person you quoted is a religionist!
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by sonmvayina(m): 10:38am On May 26, 2020
shadeyinka:

Interestingly, it is humans who are given limited attributes of God.
Gen 1:26:
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

It is not strange that the AI robot Sophia was made with synthetic rubber, steel, plastics and silicon but in the image of man and with capabilities that only man can have.

All the gods of heaven and all on Earth lie within us..

That is the essense of this thread,to make you realise that the God you are clamoring for is with you..not outside of you..

Wisdom and understanding is the greatest gift anyone can possess..

Yours is just ignorance and stupidity..no insult intended .
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by sonmvayina(m): 10:39am On May 26, 2020
IamMichael:
I collapsed that last post on this thread by @Shadeyinka. Don't want any imaginary nonsense here please.

You have failed to prove your case when given the chance, best to leave it at that!

The book i was writing has really affected this thread, but i will be back to spit it back in the abundance... This thread is for the ages, and I will make it so.

Regards!!


Send me the first copy out of the press when you are done...thanks.
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 10:46am On May 26, 2020
sonmvayina:


Send me the first copy out of the press when you are done...thanks.
Alright. It's a Sci-Fi novel though!
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by shadeyinka(m): 11:12am On May 26, 2020
sonmvayina:


All the gods of heaven and all on Earth lie within us..

That is the essense of this thread,to make you realise that the God you are clamoring for is with you..not outside of you..

Wisdom and understanding is the greatest gift anyone can possess..

Yours is just ignorance and stupidity..no insult intended .
I understand you..just like Sophia created itself and is now fully human!

1 Like

Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by sonmvayina(m): 11:39am On May 26, 2020
IamMichael:

Alright. It's a Sci-Fi novel though!

The more reason..I have I'll read it..
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by sonmvayina(m): 11:55am On May 26, 2020
IamMichael:


Can you prove your assertion with verifiable data accepted/acceptable in the science community?
or
What scientifically proven method of understanding phenomenon helped you arrive at the above conclusion?

You are falling into problem because either by ommission or commission you are delebrately separating yourself from God...is it not easier for you to say..God is existence itself....you are making it sound like here and there..
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 12:07pm On May 26, 2020
sonmvayina:


You are falling into problem because either by ommission or commission you are delebrately separating yourself from God...is it not easier for you to say..God is existence itself....you are making it sound like here and there..

When you pronounce God, do you pronounce it with capital "G"?

Here is how the word came to be associated with capital "G" in writing.

The development of English orthography was dominated by Christian texts. Capitalized, "God" was first used to refer to the Judeo-Christian concept and may now signify any monotheistic conception of God, including the translations of the Arabic Allāh, Persian Khuda, Indic Ishvara and the Maasai Ngai.

In the English language, capitalization is used for names by which a god is known, including 'God'. Consequently, its capitalized form is not used for multiple gods (polytheism) or when referring to the generic idea of a deity.[11][12] Pronouns referring to a god are also often capitalized by adherents to a religion as an indication of reverence, and are traditionally in the masculine gender ("He", "Him", "His" etc) unless specifically referring to a goddess.[13][14]

- Wikipedia!

1 Like

Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by sonmvayina(m): 12:12pm On May 26, 2020
shadeyinka:

Everything you have said here is deflated by one phrase "RELATIONSHIP and EXPERIENCE"!

Without experience, the God of gap is a good argument. Can you convince me that I have no experience (subjective or objective) of God? Too bad if you don't have your own experience: open your eyes!

This had been answered before: I wonder if this is just to keep your thread alive. I shouldn't even have responded if not for @shadeyinka that keeps resonating everywhere.

Even the Bible you so much Revere warned people of trusting in personal experiences..it is not a proof of anything...how do you decide which experience is from God or not....

Deuteronomy 13..
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 4:37pm On May 26, 2020
One man's magic is another man's reality. The telephone was magic before 1876.
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 4:40pm On May 26, 2020

"People who don't listen with the intent to understand, listen with the intent to reply."

1 Like

Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 8:27am On May 30, 2020
Before you subscribe to any belief system, you should always take it upon yourself to verify it rather than rely on the experience of others. Experiences are subjective, even if experienced in groups.

A belief is a strong conviction that something is true of something. Don't assume something to be true just because it sounds good. Everything about a belief is verifiable, and there are always simple ways of verifying your beliefs, and i don't just mean religious beliefs alone.

The only true belief's are the ones that cannot be refuted. If a belief being paraded as truth is refuted with verifiable facts, then it is senseless still trying to hold on to it. It's now about your ego rather than the subject of belief.

Here is an excerpt that you should really take your time to read and digest. There is nothing wrong in admitting that you don't know for certain. There is nothing wrong in accepting that you may be wrong. You cannot grow as a person if you don't step out of your comfort zone and verify things for yourself.

Enjoy.


HOW DO I KNOW MY BELIEFS ARE TRUE?

1)Have you ever held a false belief?

2) What made you realize you were wrong about that belief?

3) How did that realization make you feel?

4) Is it possible that you might hold false beliefs right now and you just don’t realize it yet?

5) What would it take to convince you that a belief you hold right now is false?

6) Are you passively or perhaps even actively resisting a change in your beliefs because of the emotional impact it might cause to realize you are wrong?

7) What is more important to you… Believing true things? Or believing things that confirm your existing worldview and don’t challenge you emotionally?

CHANGING WHAT WE BELIEVE IS HARD.

It’s not so simple as just “choosing” to believe something. Think of a closely held belief you have and try to remember if you chose to believe it, or if you were just exposed to enough information about it that it became impossible not to believe it. Do you choose to believe that the sun will rise tomorrow or do you believe it will based on what you’ve experienced about every sunrise before? Could you actively choose to believe that the sun will fail to rise tomorrow without some evidence that it won’t? Actually, you might say that you don’t “believe” the sun will rise tomorrow, you “know” it as a fact. Well, strictly speaking from a philosophical viewpoint, none of us “know” anything with 100% certainty. When we say we know something we really just mean that we have a very high confidence in that belief. Knowledge is a subset of belief. There are likely objective truths about reality that we can observe and make conclusions about, but personally I don’t see how we could ever perceive reality with 100% accuracy. This is a humbling concept to admit that we don’t actually know things, and even the things we have a high certainty in believing, we must admit that we may only have part of the picture.

I’m going to frame the rest of this discussion around a belief that I held very closely for most of my life. Up until I was about 22 years old, I sincerely and wholeheartedly believed that there was an eternal being who created the universe and gave us a special place in it. His only son came to Earth and sacrificed himself to give us a life after death. It took me several years, but I was exposed to enough outside information that challenged this belief that I was eventually forced to abandon it. I didn’t choose to lose my faith, in fact, there were times where I actively wished I could choose not to. Losing my faith came from a larger process of skepticism and scientific thinking.

WHEN DID I CHOOSE REASON OVER FAITH?

It started with the first question I asked you here today. How do I know my beliefs are true? When I left home for the first time to attend university, my worldviews were thrust wide open. I was being exposed to new people, new ideas, new beliefs. Often times these new things were at odds with my personal experiences to that point. I was recognizing that my perception of the world was quite small. Like I had been looking through a spyglass my whole life. I relied too heavily on that narrow view. It was very jarring to have someone take my spyglass and point it at something I couldn’t see before. I lost confidence in many beliefs, and I realized if I was wrong about even simple things, perhaps I was wrong about pretty important things like religion. I wanted to believe as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible. I started pointing my spyglass in directions I had never looked before. In fact, what I found most disconcerting was that my faith sometimes actively discouraged me from looking in certain directions. But my intent at that point was not to actively find reasons not to believe. It was actually quite the opposite. I believed in God and Jesus Christ, but I thought my narrow spyglass perspective of Christianity wasn’t sufficient. I wanted to increase the certainty of my belief, and in the process of doing so I unwittingly decreased it to the point of non-belief.

I want to use my experience and show you how you can examine your own beliefs in a similar way. If you care about holding true beliefs then I think there are some valuable tools here that you can use.

#1) NEVER EXEMPT ANY ONE BELIEF YOU HOLD FROM THE SAME CRITICISMS YOU APPLY TO OTHER BELIEFS.

The inverse is also good advice. Don’t defend your beliefs with reasoning that you don’t accept in relation to other beliefs. Almost every child of Christian parents is taught this backwards way of thinking. When they ask “If God made the universe, then where did God come from?”, they are given the response “God just is, and always will be.” This is certainly a question I asked at some point and obviously my young mind found the answer satisfactory since I continued to believe it for many years. This argument remains relatively identical even when discussed among adults; however, just with slightly more complex philosophical language. In fact, this argument has a specific name, called the Cosmological Argument. Christian apologist William Lane Craig uses the following form:

- Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

- The Universe began to exist.

- Therefore, the Universe had a cause.

From here he jumps to assuming that the cause of the universe must itself be un-caused. If whatever caused the universe to exist had a cause itself, then we create an infinite regress of causes that require causes. So what caused the universe? Well, an eternal, necessary, and perfect being called God of course. In apologetics this is called a presupposition. He jumps from requiring an un-caused cause to a god. He has exempted his god from the same criticism that he applies to the universe itself. Why insert a god at all? How does he know that the conditions required to spawn a universe could not have simply existed and been un-caused? Furthermore, scientists are relatively confident that time itself began with the big bang. What sense does it even make to claim that something existed before the universe that could cause the big bang if time itself did not exist yet? Before and after, cause and effect. These are all temporal concepts. What does it even mean to say that something existed before matter existed? Can something completely void of matter exist? If mister Craig and others who use the Cosmological Argument were consistent in their application of philosophical criticisms they would see that the only reasonable position to take is to admit that we are here, we exist, we’re not sure why, and we may never find out. From a young age I was told that our beliefs about God were special. That the normal rules don’t apply to God. I can’t use human logic to understand God. When people describe their beliefs about God as being “sacred” what they are really saying is that they should be exempt from criticism. But beliefs about God aren’t the only ones we can hold sacred. If you’ve ever talked to someone about any belief they hold who said “there’s nothing you can say to convince me I’m wrong”, then you are talking to someone who doesn’t care about whether their beliefs are true. Be open to criticisms and strive for a consistent application of logic and reason between all your beliefs.

#2) NEVER ATTEMPT TO BOLSTER YOUR BELIEFS BY ONLY SEEKING SOURCES THAT CONFIRM THEM.

This is called Confirmation Bias. Early on in my journey to increase my confidence in my religious beliefs I was absolutely guilty of practicing in confirmation bias. I wanted to believe that there was a God that cared about me and that I would get to see my family again when I died. I sought out theologians to help answer some of my most difficult questions, like why an all-powerful God would allow children to suffer and die, or why he would include verses in the Bible that detailed how you are allowed to beat your slaves as long as they don’t die within 24 hours. While many might have found their answers satisfactory, I did not. I started to realize that lots of other people also didn’t find their answers satisfactory, and many of them called themselves atheists. I had never actually met someone who didn’t believe in any kind of god, so this was quite a shock to find such a strong and vibrant online community who had more satisfactory answers than the leaders within my own faith. Investigating the claims of those that disagree with you is perhaps the most important point I can make today. In fact, it should be the first thing you do when you find yourself falling on one side of an issue. Always challenge your first assumptions when forming a belief by playing your own “devil’s advocate”. It is much too easy to find an echo chamber of support for your beliefs and become rooted in them before you learn the full picture. If I had stuck to only religious sources for answers to my questions I would still think that all atheists are just people who want to sin without remorse and hate god.

#3) NEVER ASSUME WE ALREADY HAVE THE COMPLETE PICTURE.

I’ve already mentioned how our own narrow view of the world can be problematic for discovering truths. This is especially the case for Christianity. Growing up I was never taught what other religions believed or why they believed them. I was told that the Bible was all we needed. It was the complete picture of our origins, of our purpose, and of our destiny in the afterlife. For some reason, this perfect picture of divine knowledge was bestowed upon some Middle Eastern sheep herders 2,000 years ago. I wasn’t satisfied with that answer and I thought that perhaps the historical record would confirm the claims of the Bible. Much to my surprise, there is virtually no historical mention of the man called Jesus Christ in sources outside the Bible. There is no historical evidence that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt or that Moses led them through the desert for 40 years. We can’t even be sure who wrote the books of the Bible, let alone account for the veracity of their claims. These are not things you are taught in Sunday school. Always be skeptical of any belief that claims ownership over the truth. Doubt anyone who tells you to ignore other sources of information that might contradict their claims. Don’t let someone with authority dissuade you from seeking to learn more and investigate claims for yourself. If you are not familiar with Plato’s allegory of the cave I strongly encourage you to seek it out as it perfectly encapsulates the idea of being trapped in an insular belief system.

#4) NEVER ASSUME THAT THE REST OF THE PICTURE IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FILL IN.

This is closely tied with the previous point, but there’s a subtle distinction. Sometimes I would have questions that Christians would honestly say they don’t know the answer to. Not only that, but the answer was designed by God to be beyond our reach. I was told that “God works in mysterious ways” or “maybe you will find out the answer some day when you are face to face with God in the afterlife” and many other cliches and platitudes. The truth is that Christianity never did provide answers, it provided excuses that inhibit knowledge. If Galileo had accepted the authority of the church we would still believe that the Earth was the center of the universe. If barriers placed in the way of progress were wrong in the past, how many discoveries about the world are currently being held back by similar modes of thought? Never accept that there are things we cannot know. A few minutes ago you might remember I said that we might never know why we exist, but that doesn’t mean we should stop searching. The only way to find out what we can’t know is to search in the first place. And you don’t have to seek out only things that have never been known before. There are plenty of things that each of us can learn that will widen the aperture of our spyglass and help us form a more accurate picture of our world.

#5) NEVER TURN A BLIND EYE TO BELIEFS YOU HOLD THAT ARE INHERENTLY CONTRADICTORY.

One side effect of having a low evidence threshold for accepting certain beliefs is that you can actually end up holding beliefs that are mutually exclusive. This is especially true for many religions where you are encouraged to adopt an entire umbrella of beliefs without critically examining them. When you do take the time to ensure your beliefs are compatible with each other you might experience something called Cognitive Dissonance. This is the feeling of emotional discomfort you get when you recognize an incompatibility. One example in Christianity stands out to me from my deconversion process and that is the concept of Free Will. I’ve had this discussion many times over with numerous Christians and it has always perplexed me. If God is omniscient, meaning that he knows all things, including our future, how can we possibly have free will? If he knows exactly what actions I will take, then by definition those actions have been determined for me. If I had the power to change those actions, then God could not claim to know which one I would choose. So if a God exists, either free will is an illusion, or God is not omniscient. My feeling of cognitive dissonance with these beliefs was just one more reason that I felt I needed to reject the premises altogether. Yet many Christians have no issue holding these seemingly contradictory beliefs at the same time. And that’s usually because they have never compared the two separate beliefs. When presented with events that are difficult to understand, Christians will claim that it’s part of God’s plan and that he has a reason for everything that happens. Yet when they discuss moral matters they will stress the importance of free will and that your choices will impact the most important thing of all, your eternal salvation. It is exceedingly rare to find these two concepts discussed in relation to one another. No priest wants to answer the question, “Does God override our free will to enact his divine plan?”. The lesson here can be applied to all of your beliefs. When you adopt a new belief about the world it necessitates that you then compare that new belief to as many other beliefs you already hold to ensure they are internally consistent. Perhaps you’ve heard a headline that said something to the effect of “New discovery causes scientists to go back to the drawing board”. This isn’t a failure of science, it is one of the most important features of the scientific method. Bad ideas should be thrown out and we should work every day towards a consistent and compatible set of beliefs that conform to reality as accurately as possible.

WHAT ABOUT THINGS THAT OTHER PEOPLE BELIEVE?

Once we have increased the confidence in our own beliefs (and rejected the ones we no longer have good reasons to believe) how do we help others to reassess the confidence in their beliefs? More simply, how do we convince others that they are wrong?

One of the most powerful tools for influencing belief is the Socratic method. The following is a excellent description of how it works taken from Wikipedia: “The Socratic method is a method of hypothesis elimination, in that better hypotheses are found by steadily identifying and eliminating those that lead to contradictions. The Socratic method searches for general, commonly held truths that shape beliefs and scrutinizes them to determine their consistency with other beliefs. The basic form is a series of questions formulated as tests of logic and fact intended to help a person or group discover their beliefs about some topic.” I asked you a series of questions at the very beginning of my talk that were very much designed to influence your thinking according to the Socratic method. And actually, the title I picked today is probably the most impactful question you can ask yourself and others. “How do you know your beliefs are true?” When it comes to using the Socratic method to address Christianity, there is actually a very active community of people who practice something called Street Epistemology. It’s something I only discovered recently, but I can tell you that if I had been approached by someone using Street Epistemology back while I was having serious doubts I likely would have abandoned my faith much sooner.

As I came through this process of inspecting my own beliefs, I realized that I actually felt more secure, confident, and honest. I felt the cognitive dissonance slip away. Even when there are things that I’m still not sure what to believe it feels natural to admit that “I don’t know” until I have gathered enough justification to believe one way or the other. Eventually I found that there was a group that call themselves Humanists that most closely aligned with my new worldviews. The very first bullet point on their list of affirmations reads as follows: “We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.”
****


https://uuburlington.org/news/2018/4/3/how-do-i-know-my-beliefs-are-true


This was the subject i had in mind to discuss today, but it appears someone else beat me to it. So instead of repeating it, I'm just deferring to it as it is comprehensively well laid and written.
Do not read to argue, read to understand.

I had to stress on this topic because of the moniker @whitestar who seem to be really conflicted about the word "Freethinking" and the moniker @shadeyinka who is always confusing himself with the Uncreated First Cause ridiculous absurdity.


I will also open a thread for it for wider audience.
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by shadeyinka(m): 11:46am On May 30, 2020
IamMichael:
Before you subscribe to any belief system, you should always take it upon yourself to verify it rather than rely on the experience of others. Experiences are subjective, even if experienced in groups.

A belief is a strong conviction that something is true of something. Don't assume something to be true just because it sounds good. Everything about a belief is verifiable, and there are always simple ways of verifying your beliefs, and i don't just mean religious beliefs alone.

The only true belief's are the ones that cannot be refuted. If a belief being paraded as truth is refuted with verifiable facts, then it is senseless still trying to hold on to it. It's now about your ego rather than the subject of belief.

Here is an excerpt that you should really take your time to read and digest. There is nothing wrong in admitting that you don't know for certain. There is nothing wrong in accepting that you may be wrong. You cannot grow as a person if you don't step out of your comfort zone and verify things for yourself.

Enjoy.




This was the subject i had in mind to discuss today, but it appears someone else beat me to it. So instead of repeating it, I'm just deferring to it as it is comprehensively well laid and written.
Do not read to argue, read to understand.

I had to stress on this topic because of the moniker @whitestar who seem to be really conflicted about the word "Freethinking" and the moniker @shadeyinka who is always confusing himself with the Uncreated First Cause ridiculous absurdity.


I will also open a thread for it for wider audience.
Can you please apply what you have preached here to this dogma

1. Because God cannot be experimentally verified, therefore He doesn't exist!

Is this a FACT or a BELIEF?
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 1:38pm On May 30, 2020
shadeyinka:

Can you please apply what you have preached here to this dogma

1. Because God cannot be experimentally verified, therefore He doesn't exist!

Is this a FACT or a BELIEF?
You are always in a hurry to argue illogical conclusions. Just slow down for once and think, try to conceptualise. Don't always be in a hurry to show you know.
Before you pose a question, at least try and first consider if the question you are asking have been asked properly, so that you elicit proper reply.

What god are you talking about? Is it Zeus, Ogun, Allah, Yahweh, Amadioha?

1 Like

Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by shadeyinka(m): 1:57pm On May 30, 2020
IamMichael:

You are always in a hurry to argue illogical conclusions. Just slow down for once and think, try to conceptualise. Don't always be in a hurry to show you know.
Before you pose a question, at least try and first consider if the question you are asking have been asked properly, so that you elicit proper reply.

What god are you talking about? Is it Zeus, Ogun, Allah, Yahweh, Amadioha?
See escapism in full blare!

I speak about the "Creator God/ gods"

Now answer the question

Can you please apply what you have preached here to this dogma

Because God cannot be experimentally verified, therefore He doesn't exist!

Is this a FACT or a BELIEF?
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 2:16pm On May 30, 2020
shadeyinka:

See escapism in full blare!

I speak about the "Creator God/ gods"

Now answer the question

Can you please apply what you have preached here to this dogma

Because God cannot be experimentally verified, therefore He doesn't exist!

Is this a FACT or a BELIEF?
You are not listening.

When you say you speak about the creator God/gods, you have not said anything because already you have made a conclusion about a non-existent thing as existing. The only thing you succeeded in doing is asking an open ended ambiguous and vague question.

Be specific and coin the question using a specific name. When you use a specific name, you get a specific answer.

I hope that's more clearer for you now!

Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 12:41pm On Jun 01, 2020
He has run away... grin
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 1:08pm On Jun 01, 2020

The religious statistics that should get you worried:

Christians are estimated to be 2.3billion worldwide while the rest make up the remaining 5billion+ who are not christians. If as they say, majority carries the vote, christians are already in the minority. Who is wrong, who is right?

Of the remaining 5billion+, Islam is estimated to have 1.8billion people.

Hinduism has an estimated 1.1billion of the remaining 3.2billion population.

Budhism has an estimated 535million of the remaining 3.2billion population.

The rest are affiliated to other forms of worship system and then the Freethinkers(atheists, nontheists, humanists, etc)...

If this number doesn't fear you as a non-religious person, I doubt there is anything else more frightening for the hope of humanity.

We are surrounded by billions of people who believe in fairy tales. This billions of people will go ahead to give birth to more billions of people who they will go on to force to believe in the same fairy tales.
We are finished. Can we win this fight to get all to start reasoning logically?

1 Like

Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by gsegun43: 8:55pm On Jun 01, 2020
@iammichael

You seem to be giving up, but what you forgot is that you were born religious as many of us, but we got to know better at a particular point in life. The only thing you are not seeing is the rate at which people are leaving religion. I can bet you that religion will soon become thing of the past.
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 9:13pm On Jun 01, 2020
gsegun43:
@iammichael

You seem to be giving up, but what you forgot is that you were born religious as many of us, but we got to know better at a particular point in life. The only thing you are not seeing is the rate at which people are leaving religion. I can bet you that religion will soon become thing of the past.
I'm really very grateful for this your encouraging words. Thank you!
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 9:15pm On Jun 01, 2020


For what reason does science deny witchcraft, sorcery and black magic, if it is something that they did not even verify? They are energies that break the laws of physics and can never be measured.


By
Per Jorgensen(B. Sc. Journalism, University of Kansas)






“I have invented a machine! My machine summons the dead, turns people into newts, and also cures COVID-19.”

Astonishing! Can we see it?

“It cannot be seen with the eyes.”

Oh. Can we handle it?

“It cannot be felt with the senses.”

Can we try it out?

“It cannot be operated by just anyone.”

Why not?

“It is quite dangerous in untrained hands.”

Can you train us?

“Yes. You may enter a secret training program led by me.”

How long is the class, and what is the curriculum?

“It may be years sequestered in the secret sanctuary of Büll Chyīt to be granted the requisite robes, or you can get the E-Z Certificate in the mail for a low fee of $199. You get two free crystals with the purchase.”

OK. And the E-Z Certificate will allow me to operate the machine?

“Yes.”

And I will be able to summon the dead, turn people into newts, and also cure COVID-19?

“Provided you believe that it will, yes.”

Wait, it only works if you believe it will work?

“Yes. It is a special machine. I told you.”

Then how do we know it does what you say it does?

“Logic. When the dead are summoned, a person is turned into a newt, or someone infected with SARS-CoV-2 does not die, the machine worked. If the machine worked, that means its operator believed.”

Can we measure its operations?

“It operates outside the realm of measurement.”

But surely it must make use of the laws of physics?

“It operates outside the realm of known physics. It’s a special machine because it follows other, special laws that cannot be measured.”

OK, wait, if it does the things you say it does, then those things can be measured, right? I mean, if it summons the dead, then if it’s working we will see the dead with our eyes or hear them with our ears?

“Yes, provided you believe.”

It only works if you believe it works. You did mention that.

“Verily. The machine exists outside the realm which your instruments may detect. Only an expanded and freed mind may access the lost senses with which to detect its effects.”

Alright, let’s try a different approach. If your machine turns people into newts, we can see that they are now newts?

“Verily. Here is one of them. It is visually quite striking.”

How do we know that was once a person?

“This is quite exasperating! If you will just free your mind for one minute from the shackles of science religion …”

Now hold that thought. Maybe if we could ask someone who was turned into a newt and then turned back? Does the machine do that?

“Verily. Here is one of them. As you can see, his condition improved.”

Cool! We can ask him then?

“He will have no recollection. That is a function of my machine. Its operations are quite dangerous, therefore anyone exposed to them must be protected from knowledge thereof.“

Oh dear. How about this, can you turn me into a newt?

“It shall be done.”

I’m not a newt.

“My machine turned you into a newt, then I reversed its settings and turned you back into a human. Leaving you a newt would be evil. You have no recollection, as I stated earlier.”

Can we bring Bob in here so you can turn him into a newt while I watch?

“My machine cannot work under the gaze of those who do not believe. I sense that you do not believe, therefore it cannot be done.”

Can we film or photograph it then?

“Instruments of recording are constrained by the laws of physics and cannot record the machine’s effects.”

Very well. How about COVID-19. How many have you cured so far?

“Thousands. Thousands my machine has saved from COVID-19.”

How do we know your machine is what cured them?

“I operated my machine. They did not die. Ipso facto, my machine worked.”

I think we’ve heard enough. This machine isn’t real, is it?

“This is outrageous! How dare you … your mind is closed and your eyes covered by the blinds of the dogma you call ‘science’. If you would just open your inner eyes and break free from the constraints of your ‘measurements’ and your ‘detection’, you will be liberated to see that which exists in other realms!

“Also, show me the proof it doesn’t work!”

It’s like that: Science doesn’t need to deny anything. Science questions. If it’s real, you can show it. If its effects are real, you can show them.

If magic is real, all you have to do is show it to be real.

1 Like

Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 9:20pm On Jun 01, 2020
gsegun43:
@iammichael

You seem to be giving up, but what you forgot is that you were born religious as many of us, but we got to know better at a particular point in life. The only thing you are not seeing is the rate at which people are leaving religion. I can bet you that religion will soon become thing of the past.
You are also welcome to add/contribute in any way you can.
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by gsegun43: 10:18pm On Jun 01, 2020
IamMichael:
I'm really very grateful for this your encouraging words. Thank you!
uwc
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by donjazet(m): 11:18pm On Jun 01, 2020
Nice thread O.P.
Micheal, you are a brilliant writer. I have found your arguments quite insightful, consistent and illuminating.
Kudos.
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 11:02am On Jun 02, 2020
donjazet:
Nice thread O.P.
Micheal, you are a brilliant writer. I have found your arguments quite insightful, consistent and illuminating.
Kudos.
Wow!
Thank you a lot bro. I'm really grateful you found it helpful.
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by donjazet(m): 11:19am On Jun 02, 2020
IamMichael:

Wow!
Thank you a lot bro. I'm really grateful you found it helpful.

Believe you me, you are helping a lot more nairalanders than you know. More grease to your elbows.
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 11:23am On Jun 02, 2020
donjazet:


Believe you me, you are helping a lot more nairalanders than you know. More grease to your elbows.
Thank you bro. I will continue to do my best. grin
Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 12:21pm On Jun 02, 2020

In the early hours of today, at around 12:11am, a neighbor and his household started midnight prayers. I was recording it, despite the fact they lived in another house. It was very clear from my end, and i don't even want to imagine the noise it was causing the persons in same compound with him.
At a point, i quit recording cuz i wanted to engage in some other gainful stuff online.
However, the prayer points the leader of the midnight prayer (the husband) raised really got me thinking hard. For emphasis, here are some of them:
- Jesus Christ take control of our life
- God destroy all the people holding our life
- God destroy our enemies
- God energize our spirit
- Jesus Christ do not allow the enemies see us, and if they do, destroy them.
- God forgive us our sins
- God speak into our lives as a family.
- God we have come before you, do not forsake us.
- God whatever the enemy did that is stopping our family from going forward, destroy it.


The prayers were too much, i had to plug an earpiece and start watching movies till i fell asleep.
******


I was left wondering. I mean, if someone can dedicate all this time to pray, it shouldn't be hard to also do some personal retrospection or hard thinking about one's life to actually try and know where one got it wrong to begin with.

- For someone asking God to energise them, they were awake by 12am, shouting and praying very hard. A time that should have been given to sleep, to nourish an exhausted body and be refreshed. But, they dedicated it to prayer instead. And they do this regularly.

- This people have succeeded in wrongfully believing that there is an enemy out there who is controlling their lives. They therefore have technically absolved themselves of responsibility for their actions. They have found the perfect person to blame for all their predicaments.

- Then, they have found a helper too. In their mind, after being fed all the beliefs about an all-powerful god, they have now believed the god will fight for them. All they need do is wake up at midnight (the long held superstition as the best hour to destroy demons and evil spirits) and call on the god's name. This god will then go and destroy the enemy.
They will continue this prayer till this year ends, will still continue it to the next because it never ends obviously.

- They also tell their god to speak into their lives. You would think that this has been sufficiently done in the bible they subscribe to. But this is like a permanent prayer too. It never ends.

For this people, all their problems and solutions in life are the unseen enemy and the all-powerful god who fights on their behalf.
Yet, the next day, they are the ones who will wake up and actually face their problems in 3D, staring them in the face. Everything is still as it is, and they will wave it off as the will of their god.
This people have been made to believe that they don't have a choice, yet everything in our life is our choice.
The things we got no choice in have already been decided by evolution and nature. We had no choice in our birth, in our gender, in the family, tribe or religion.
We have no choice in how nature operates and does its things.
But, we have the choice to decide what to make of our life from the moment we are born(and I'm not even talking about people nature robbed with disabilities).
The day you decide to give away your ability to choose and take responsibility for your acts, that's the day you are finished... and that's the day religious beliefs will sprout roots in your life with thick branches and heavy stems.

4 Likes

Re: A Thread For The Mental Emancipation Of Indoctrinated Religious Adherents by IamMichael(m): 11:28am On Jun 03, 2020



Trauma from Leaving Religion
RELIGIOUS TRAUMA SYNDROME
Article 3 of 3 by Dr Marlene Winell

Understanding Religious Trauma Syndrome: Trauma from Leaving Religion


Religious Trauma Syndrome (RTS) is a function of both the chronic abuses of harmful religion and the impact of severing one’s connection with one’s faith and faith community. It can be compared to a combination of PTSD and Complex PTSD (C-PTSD). In the last article of this series, I explained some of the toxic aspects of authoritarian religions that cause long-term psychological damage (Bible-based ones in particular). In this writing, I will address the trauma of breaking away from this kind of religion.

With PTSD, a traumatic event is one in which a person experiences or witnesses actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others. Losing one’s faith, or leaving one’s religion, is an analogous event because it essentially means the death of one’s previous life – the end of reality as it was understood. It is a huge shock to the system, and one that needs to be recognized as trauma.

What it means to leave:
Breaking out of a restrictive, mind-controlling religion is understandably a liberating experience. People report huge relief and some excitement about their new possibilities. Certain problems are over, such as trying to twist one’s thinking to believe irrational religious doctrines, handling enormous cognitive dissonance in order to get by in the ‘real world’ as well, and conforming to repressive codes of behavior. Finally leaving a restrictive religion can be a major personal accomplishment after trying to [b]make it work and going through many cycles of guilt and confusion.

However, the challenges of leaving are daunting. For most people, the religious environment was a one-stop-shop for meeting all their major needs – social support, a coherent worldview, meaning and direction in life, structured activities, and emotional/spiritual satisfaction. Leaving the fold means multiple losses, including the loss of friends and family support at a crucial time of personal transition. Consequently, it is a very lonely ‘stressful life event’ – more so than others described on Axis IV in the DSM. [/b]For some people, depending on their personality and the details of their religious past, it may be possible to simply stop participating in religious services and activities and move on with life. But for many, leaving their religion means debilitating anxiety, depression, grief, and anger.

Usually people begin with intellectually letting go of their religious beliefs and then struggle with the emotional aspects. The cognitive part is difficult enough and often requires a period of study and struggle before giving up one’s familiar and perhaps cherished worldview. But the emotional letting go is much more difficult since the beliefs are bound with deep-seated needs and fears, and usually inculcated at a young age.

Problems with self-worth and fear of terrible punishment continue. Virtually all controlling religions teach fear about the evil in ‘the world’ and the danger of being alone without the group. Ordinary setbacks can cause panic attacks, especially when one feels like a small child in a very foreign world. [/i]Coming out of a sheltered, repressed environment can result in a lack of coping skills and personal maturity. The phobia indoctrination makes it difficult to avoid the stabbing thought, even many years after leaving, that one has made a terrible mistake, thinking ‘what if they’re right?’

It is truly amazing the pain I went through due to what was inputted into my mind… All I know is it took such a toll on me that I did not care if I died and went to hell to escape the hell I was in and the immense fear it put into my life.

Depression, anxiety, fatigue, insomnia, etc... you name it. It sucks. Probably from years of guilt being a Christian and a sinner, and thinking people I love are in hell.

Making the break is for many the most disruptive, difficult upheaval they have ever gone through in life. To understand this fully, one must appreciate the totality of a religious worldview that defines and controls reality in the way that fundamentalist groups do. Everything about the world - past, present, and future – is explained, the meaning of life is laid out, morality is already decided, and individuals must find their place in the cosmic scheme in order to be worthwhile. The promises for conformity and obedience are great and the threats for disobedience are dire, both for the present life and the hereafter. Controlling religions tend to limit information about the world and alternative views so members easily conclude that their religious worldview is the only one possible. Anything outside of their world is considered dangerous and evil at worst and terribly misguided at best. So leaving this sheltered environment is bursting a bubble. Everything a person has believed to be true is shattered.

My foundation has truly dropped out from under me. Despite being told I am courageous, tenacious, and this is rugged work, I consistently find wave after wave of grief that overwhelms me. I can hardly believe how upended it has made my life.

My whole sense of purpose, value, and meaning was wrapped tightly around my Christian faith...I kept my doubts buried and crucified, and I tried hard not to think about the troubling things of faith...A year ago, I abandoned evangelicalism...the pain I feel is deep and raw.

The impact can create problems with day-to-day functioning.

The amount of inner turmoil during this time was overwhelming. It affected my daily life and many days I didn’t want to get out of bed. I was depressed and anxious at the same time. Being in college was difficult. I could hardly focus on class.

I am utterly confused and at the moment my whole life is ruined as I don't know what to think. I've been off work a month with anxiety.

I have - for about three years - been dependent on drinking alcohol every night for a very long time.

Shattered assumption framework
In the study of trauma, certain developments are highly relevant to understanding RTS. One is the shattered assumption framework, or ‘loss of the assumptive world’ (Kauffman, 2002). It has been used to understand traumatic loss such as death of a loved one, but can easily be applied to loss of faith. According to Beder (2004), ‘The assumptive world concept refers to the assumptions or beliefs that ground, secure, stabilize, and orient people. They are our core beliefs. In the face of death and trauma, these beliefs are shattered and disorientation and even panic can enter the lives of those affected.’

The most damaging traumas are those that are human-caused and involve interpersonal violence and violation (DePrince and Freyd, 2002). (In my opinion, this would describe indoctrinating children in fear-based religion.) This approach names three basic assumptions held about the world that are shattered with these traumas: the world is benevolent, the world is meaningful, and the self is worthy (Janoff-Bulman, 1992). A fourth is sometimes included which says that others are trustworthy (Roth and Newman, 1991). This model applies well to religion if one thinks of the ‘world’ as that created and maintained by the religious group. The religious version of ‘self is worthy’ is usually a paradoxical view of the self which is both sinful and special. That is, an individual has nothing intrinsic to be proud of but can have great purpose, and can play a role in a cosmic, spiritual drama.

These researchers explored the way schemas and other cognitive factors lead to humans’ cognitive conservatism and resistance to changing basic assumptions. Another line of research indicates negative responses in the brain when a person is confronted with information that conflicts with strongly-held beliefs (Shermer, 2011). Traumatic experiences shatter basic assumptions and beliefs. Conversely, a shattering of beliefs is traumatic. Coping and healing from trauma requires an individual to reconcile their old set of assumptions with new, modified assumptions (DePrince & Freyd, 2002). The trauma is understood to have both affective and cognitive components.

Loss of faith or leaving one’s religion viewed through this lens helps to explain the intensity of the trauma. A religion contains a large and complex set of assumptions held to be true by the group. Rejecting the ‘meme complex’ that has been passed on through generations is a major cognitive disruption as well as a risk of social rejection. Panic about being helpless in a meaningless world can result.

Never have I experienced such confusion, pain, grief, loss fear, anxiety, depression, paralysis. All because of religion, faith, God.

It is noteworthy that all of the most controlling, authoritarian religions make sweeping, ultimate promises along with demands for devotion. Individuals who were most sincere, devout, and dedicated seem to be the ones most traumatized when their religious assumptive world crumbles. This would make sense from Kauffman’s (2002) perspective that shattered assumptions cause the self to fragment into pieces. As he puts it, ‘The assumptive world order is the set of illusions that shelter the human soul.’

Some days are better than others of course but most days are blighted by some form of dark cloud. The real tragedy for me is that I love life - in all of its hues, shades, problems and challenges - I just can't see life through a prescribed formula any more.
[i]
I feel in total crisis, panicked, and terrified of facing a future alone. No confidence in my own decision making if it isn’t in line with Christianity, and inability to find fulfillment from within.


For many people who leave their faith, it is like a death or divorce. Their ‘relationship’ with God was a central assumption, such that giving it up feels like a genuine loss to be grieved. It can be like losing a lover, a parent, or best friend who has always been there.

It is like a death in the family as my god Jesus finally died and no amount of belief could resurrect him. It is an absolutely dreadful and pull-rightening experience and dark night of the soul.

When I left, it felt like I was losing a friend or even a spouse - was definitely ‘traumatic’. Now, as an outsider, I see how crazy-making and damaging it was to me.

1 Like

(1) (2) (3) ... (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) (11) (Reply)

You Will Get There / [dp] Muharram 2015 Profile Pics - Ya Hussain Dp Photos For Whatsapp / God's Favorite Biblical Character

(Go Up)

Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health
religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket

Links: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10)

Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2024 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 148
Disclaimer: Every Nairaland member is solely responsible for anything that he/she posts or uploads on Nairaland.