Assalamualakum waramatullahi wabarakatu,

as u all no, i hardly make comment but read.

lagoshia had said alot of thing which contradict prophet mohammed and i am ready to involve in constructive and oen arguement on ur sect.


first, u should no i no nothin about shia, we will only be talking based on ur response about ur sect.

i am a muslim and i dont belong to any sect but islam.

so if i would join ur sect, i should be able to understand what it mean now relate it with the quran and prophet mohammeds saying.

the flow is open.

Alhamdulillah and may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon His Messenger and the chosen members of the Ahlul-Bayt.

i am glad you have put this offer foward and i welcome it with all my heart.i am also happy you said you know nothing about shia islam.also i want to correct a misconception many muslims especially we African muslims have.we always want to see ourselves as only being muslims.i want to correct this notion by saying that both the sunnis and the shias,each side believe they are only muslims and that they are the right islam.non of the 2 sides would want to be seen as deviating from islam or that they are a deviant sect.and this is particular so and inescapable for the fact no matter how ignorant the muslim is,he must be explicitly or implicitly following either of the two branches of islam.you are either shia or sunni.there is no escape from it no matter how much you think you are being neutral.take for example the simple practive of wudu.you either do your ablution as the shia do it or as sunnis do.

another point i want to emphasize and one of the reasons i am shia,is the fact that shia islam teaches me a basic reality:you cannot be indifferent to the truth.if you dont follow the truth then you are following falsehood.likewise within the context of the shia/sunni split,there is the obligation upon each and everyone muslim to be seen as a shia.shia means "partisan".we are the shia of Ali or the shia of the Household of Muhammad.within the context of the shia/sunni divide,it is an obligation on us as muslims that we obey Allah and His Messenger.the Quran says: "SAY OH MUHAMMAD:I ASK YOU (MUSLIMS) OF NO REWARD EXCEPT THE LOVE OF MY NEAR ONES".If the near one of the Prophet we are ordered to love (and this love means loyalty),we dont defend them nor stand against their enemies then we are committing a sin against the words of Allah and a grave injustice.you are either with justice or against justice.you cannot be with both.you are either with the Prophet's daughter,Fatima,or you are with Umar,the man who wanted to burn her house.you either follow the Household and their lead or you follow those who thought of themselves as better than the Household of Muhammad.so there is no escape to it.you must stand with justice.as it is said:injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere !!!


for us to proceed,i want us to start with the accusation you have laid against me.you said:

"lagoshia had said alot of thing which contradict prophet mohammed"

please show me where and how i have gone against the teachings of our beloved Prophet.let us see if i have gone against them or it is you who have ignored his teachings.

thank you!

Quoting u
i want to correct this notion by saying that both the sunnis and the shias,each side believe they are only muslims and that they are the right islam.non of the 2 sides would want to be seen as deviating from islam or that they are a deviant sect.and this is particular so and inescapable for the fact no matter how ignorant the muslim is,he must be explicitly or implicitly following either of the two branches of islam.you are either shia or sunni.there is no escape from it no matter how much you think you are being neutral.t

I am not shia, i do not no anything about.

I am not sunni, i do not know anything about it either. i only learn and accept a teaching that i consider islamic from any where.

quoting u
another point i want to emphasize and one of the reasons i am shia,is the fact that shia islam teaches me a basic reality:you cannot be indifferent to the truth.if you dont follow the truth then you are following falsehood.likewise within the context of the shia/sunni split,t

I do not want to know y u re shia, i want to no why i should be. if u re shia because of something and i am not convinced abt it, so be it. secondly, do not compare shia and sunni for me, i can do that my self. just talk strictly on ur sect shia.

quoting u
here is the obligation upon each and everyone muslim to be seen as a shia.shia means "partisan".we are the shia of Ali or the shia of the Household of Muhammad.within the context of the shia/sunni divide,it is an obligation on us as muslims that we obey Allah and His Messenger.the Quran says: "SAY OH MUHAMMAD:I ASK YOU (MUSLIMS) OF NO REWARD EXCEPT THE LOVE OF MY NEAR ONES".If the near one of the Prophet we are ordered to love (and this love means loyalty),we dont defend them nor stand against their enemies then we are committing a sin against the words of Allah and a grave injustice.you are either with justice or against justice.you cannot be with both.

who said (here is the obligation upon each and everyone muslim to be seen as a shia)?

I ASK YOU (MUSLIMS) OF NO REWARD EXCEPT THE LOVE OF MY NEAR ONES".If the near one of the Prophet we are ordered to love (and this love means loyalty),we dont defend them nor stand against their enemies then we are committing a sin against the words of Allah and a grave injustice.you are either with justice or against justice.you cannot be with both.[/color]


accepted.

quoting u
you are either with the Prophet's daughter,Fatima,or you are with Umar,the man who wanted to burn her house.you either follow the Household and their lead or you follow those who thought of themselves as better than the Household of Muhammad

listen, i am not here to compare what u understand by comparing ur sect with another.

all am here for is to know ur sect and talk based on the Quran and my understandn of islam.

please be straight with no comparing.



Note: My knowledge is not based on any sect but islam, any sect who those the same is practicing islam.

@bilms

I do not want to know y u re shia, i want to no why i should be. if u re shia because of something and i am not convinced abt it, so be it. secondly, do not compare shia and sunni for me, i can do that my self. just talk strictly on your sect shia.

okay,your point is clear.i could really ask you to review the two other threads i started in this forum.you can find alot of info there.but for the sake of your own individual benefit i would not mind going over it all again.

why must you be a shia?

the answer to that question is very simple:

you must be a shia,because shia islam teaches the true religion of the Almighty Creator,islam in its pure and original form,unadulterated and as prescribed by Allah and His Messenger,the Prophet Muhammad in contrast to the other branch of islam known as sunni islam.anything other than shia islam,is simply half iman (half faith)!

LagosShia:

@bilms
okay,your point is clear.i could really ask you to review the two other threads i started in this forum.you can find alot of info there.but for the sake of your own individual benefit i would not mind going over it all again.

why must you be a shia?

the answer to that question is very simple:

you must be a shia,because shia islam teaches the true religion of the Almighty Creator,islam in its pure and original form,unadulterated and as prescribed by Allah and His Messenger,the Prophet Muhammad in contrast to the other branch of islam known as sunni islam.anything other than shia islam,is simply half iman (half faith)!

Thanks.

point of note: i have already said u should not compare shia and sunni for me, just tell me about shia. so y always making reference to sunni in anything u say?.

first, before the death of prophet mohammed, i never remember ever reading it from anywhere were prophet mohammed said shia teaches islam in its pure form than any other sect. what he said was that the religion as been perfect for you. and the only religion that teaches itself in it purest form is islam itself.

so if any sect cliam to teach islam in its purest form, not d sect will say such,but we will determine that by knowing what they stand for by there teaching and practice.

it is the practice and teaching that will make me determine if it teaches islam in its purest form.

so do not tell me that they do, but you should tell me there teaching and i would determine if they teach it or not.

@bilms

in introducing shia islam to you,our discussion would be based on the following:

1.)the wilayah/rulership of Imam Ali (as) as the first legitimate and divinely appointed successor (caliph) of the Prophet Muhammad.anyone else who claimed to be caliph such as abu bakr,being called the "first caliph" is a usurper and he is illegitimate.anyone who calls himself "shia of Ali" is following the legitimate successor of the Prophet and that is pure Islam.

2.) knowing the chosen ones of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) and for whom the verse 33:33 refers to as "Ahlul-Bayt" that are purified and cleansed.

3.) knowing the 12 Imams and accepting them as as the divinely appointed guides for the ummah in the spirittual,political and in all aspects and that they are the legitimate successors of the Prophet,regardless if they hold the office of caliphate or not.

4.) admitting to the deviation from the truth of some sahaba and identifying their heinous crimes they committed against the Ahlul-Bayt (as) especially in directly going contrary to the declarations of the Prophet Muhammad (sa).

5.) Understanding the revolution of Imam Hussain (as) in Karbala as the culmination of attrocities committed against the Ahlul-Bayt (as).


the above are the 5 points upon which we will discuss.in the next post i will start with point #1.as for the issue of comparing sunni and shia,i will present shia islam as it is.if i do mention "sunni" anywhere that is only for emphasis or clarification in order to enable the readers make a distinction where necessary.but i got your point and i will concentrate on shia islam.

And admonish thy nearest kinsmen― (Holy Quran 26:214)

The Prophet thereupon instructed 'Ali, peace be upon him, to invite forty of the leading personages of Quraysh to a banquet, and forty of the Prophet's relatives accepted.

At their very first session, the nonsensical ravings of Abu Lahab, his raging anger and unbridled arrogance, caused the meeting to break up in confusion. The following day, when again everyone was gathered in accordance with the instructions of the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, first food was served to the guests, and then it was time for spiritual nourishment. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, stood up among his relatives, praised and supplicated the Creator, and said:

"I swear that there is none worthy of worship other than the One God, and that I am His envoy to you and the entirety of mankind. I have brought you the means of felicity in both worlds. My Lord has commanded me to summon you to the religion of Islam, and I give you glad tidings that whoever among you accepts my summons the soonest and aids me in my mission will be my brother (akhi), my legatee (wasiyyi) and my successor (khalifati)."

Those words greatly disturbed those present at the gathering, for their pride was offended, and it almost seemed that the voice of truth and the summons of prophethood would remain unheeded.
Suddenly 'Ali b. Abi Talib, peace be upon him, arose and cried out: "O Muhammad, I believe in the oneness of God and your messengerhood and I distance myself from the idol worshippers."

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, ordered 'Ali, peace be upon him, to sit down. He then repeated twice more his earlier proclamation, but those words of truth made no impact on the hearts of those gathered in that assembly. No one apart from 'Ali, peace be upon him, responded to the call of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his family. ''Ali's acceptance of that summons and his declaration of agreement with the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, came at a time when he was just entering manhood. While everyone else sat voiceless and silent, he (Ali) arose courageously and affirmed his acceptance of the Prophet's call a second time. Thereupon the Prophet turned to the assembly and said:

"'Ali is my brother and legatee and my successor among you. Obey him, follow him, and pay heed to his words."

This event shows that the question of deciding the successorship of the Messenger was already known to the Prophet and it is a case decided by Allah.the response of Imam Ali (as) only portrays the demonstration by the Prophet of declaring his prophethood and inviting his near ones to Islam while at the same time showing that only Imam Ali believed in him and would thus be his successor.the Prophet's question was rhetorical and hence his declaration for Imam Ali. Imam Ali stood-up thrice and was calmed by the Prophet.this event also marked the first openly performed miracle of the Prophet as he fed a large number of people with little amount of food and all were filled up!

The reaction of the assembled guests was extremely hostile, for they wished to strip this declaration by the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, of its effect, and they therefore stood up and quit the meeting in the most unworthy and discourteous fashion. This event constitutes one of the plainest and most significant chapters in history, and none of the well-known historians has ever seen fit to deny its occurrence, not even the most narrow-minded among them have been able to excise this historic occurrence from their writings.

Sunni References:

Ahmad b. Hanbal, al-Musnad, Vol. I, pp. 111, 159. Ibn al-Athir, al-Kamil, Vol. II, p.22; al-Tabari, al-Tafsir, Vol. II, p. 216; Abu al-Fida', al-Tarikh, Vol. I, p. 119; al-Ganji, Kifayatal-Talib, p.89. al-Nasa'i, al-Khasa'is, p. 18; al-Halabi, al-Sirah, Vol. I, p.304; Ibn Abi 'l-Hadid, Sharh, Vol. III, p. 255; al-Suyuti, Jam' al-Jawami', Vol. VI, p. 408; al-Khifaji, Sharh al-Shifa', Vol. III, p. 37.

more to come,

@poster. Peace be unto u. hope everyone can join the discourse?

Thanks for accepting the terms.

LagosShia:

And admonish thy nearest kinsmen― (Holy Quran 26:214)

The Prophet thereupon instructed 'Ali, peace be upon him, to invite forty of the leading personages of Quraysh to a banquet, and forty of the Prophet's relatives accepted.

At their very first session, the nonsensical ravings of Abu Lahab, his raging anger and unbridled arrogance, caused the meeting to break up in confusion. The following day, when again everyone was gathered in accordance with the instructions of the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, first food was served to the guests, and then it was time for spiritual nourishment. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, stood up among his relatives, praised and supplicated the Creator, and said:

"I swear that there is none worthy of worship other than the One God, and that I am His envoy to you and the entirety of mankind. I have brought you the means of felicity in both worlds. My Lord has commanded me to summon you to the religion of Islam, and I give you glad tidings that whoever among you accepts my summons the soonest and aids me in my mission will be my brother (akhi), my legatee (wasiyyi) and my successor (khalifati)."

Those words greatly disturbed those present at the gathering, for their pride was offended, and it almost seemed that the voice of truth and the summons of prophethood would remain unheeded.
Suddenly 'Ali b. Abi Talib, peace be upon him, arose and cried out: "O Muhammad, I believe in the oneness of God and your messengerhood and I distance myself from the idol worshippers."

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, ordered 'Ali, peace be upon him, to sit down. He then repeated twice more his earlier proclamation, but those words of truth made no impact on the hearts of those gathered in that assembly. No one apart from 'Ali, peace be upon him, responded to the call of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his family. ''Ali's acceptance of that summons and his declaration of agreement with the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, came at a time when he was just entering manhood. While everyone else sat voiceless and silent, he (Ali) arose courageously and affirmed his acceptance of the Prophet's call a second time. Thereupon the Prophet turned to the assembly and said:

"'Ali is my brother and legatee and my successor among you. Obey him, follow him, and pay heed to his words."

This event shows that the question of deciding the successorship of the Messenger was already known to the Prophet and it is a case decided by Allah.the response of Imam Ali (as) only portrays the demonstration by the Prophet of declaring his prophethood and inviting his near ones to Islam while at the same time showing that only Imam Ali believed in him and would thus be his successor.the Prophet's question was rhetorical and hence his declaration for Imam Ali. Imam Ali stood-up thrice and was calmed by the Prophet.this event also marked the first openly performed miracle of the Prophet as he fed a large number of people with little amount of food and all were filled up!

The reaction of the assembled guests was extremely hostile, for they wished to strip this declaration by the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, of its effect, and they therefore stood up and quit the meeting in the most unworthy and discourteous fashion. This event constitutes one of the plainest and most significant chapters in history, and none of the well-known historians has ever seen fit to deny its occurrence, not even the most narrow-minded among them have been able to excise this historic occurrence from their writings.

Sunni References:

Ahmad b. Hanbal, al-Musnad, Vol. I, pp. 111, 159. Ibn al-Athir, al-Kamil, Vol. II, p.22; al-Tabari, al-Tafsir, Vol. II, p. 216; Abu al-Fida', al-Tarikh, Vol. I, p. 119; al-Ganji, Kifayatal-Talib, p.89. al-Nasa'i, al-Khasa'is, p. 18; al-Halabi, al-Sirah, Vol. I, p.304; Ibn Abi 'l-Hadid, Sharh, Vol. III, p. 255; al-Suyuti, Jam' al-Jawami', Vol. VI, p. 408; al-Khifaji, Sharh al-Shifa', Vol. III, p. 37.

more to come,

On the above story i have 5 questions

1. were there any Muslim anywhere b4 this meeting? was Ali the first male to accept Islam or just the only one to accept amongst those at the meeting? if no, what number was he?

2. was the meeting which prophet Mohammad called them to, scheduled to hold between all or only d member of his family?

3. was there no other person the prophet as called to lead while he was alive? was the person Ali? was there no one he commanded to lead in case he his not fit? was the person Ali?

4. at his death, he set the example of writing will, was there anyone he gave the directory to lead when he was dying which signify taking over in his demise?

5. when the prophet was alive, who is the right man, i.e after the prophet,who is next to him in command?


Thanks

@ Abuhanafi, plz just read. after our discussion, u will be free to post.

Thanks

bilms:

Thanks for accepting the terms.
On the above story i have 5 questions

1. were there any Muslim anywhere b4 this meeting? was Ali the first male to accept Islam or just the only one to accept amongst those at the meeting? if no, what number was he?

Imam Ali (as) was the first male to accept the Prophethood of Muhammad (sa) openly.since he is born an Imam,as we also believe Prophets are designated with prophethood even before their birth since Allah is full of knowledge and knows the unseen.Imam Ali was born a muslim and never bowed down to the idols of Quraysh.thus we hear sunnis says after the name of Ali is mentioned "karramallah wajhahu".i.e. "may Allah preserve his face.

so to cut it short,yes Imam Ali was the first male muslim after the Prophet.

2. was the meeting which prophet Mohammad called them to, scheduled to hold between all or only d member of his family?

as the Quranic verse indicates,Almighty Allah first ordered the Prophet to invite his nearest ones to Islam.in other words,this meeting happened after the verse to call upon the nearest ones was revealed.

3. was there no other person the prophet as called to lead while he was alive? was the person Ali? was there no one he commanded to lead in case he his not fit? was the person Ali?

from all records,there was not once that Imam Ali was present and available,that the Prophet would give preference to someone else.if someone else is given a task (like when the expedition of Tabuk was led by Usama Ibn Harith) it is either because Imam Ali was absent or had a more tasking assignment.this was perfectly displayed when the Prophet gave surat tauba to abu bakr to deliver to quraysh.as soon as Imam Ali made his presence available,the Prophet informed Imam Ali (as) that an order was given to Jibril informing the Prophet that Imam Ali should chase abu bakr and take the sura from him and that it must be Imam Ali who should deliver surat tawba.

4. at his death, he set the example of writing will, was there anyone he gave the directory to lead when he was dying which signify taking over in his demise?

the Prophet made the declaration of Ghadir Khum,which is also known as "hadith of the pond of khumm".that declaration was made during the last pilgrimage of the Prophet as he knew it would be his last.that serves as an oral will.

when the Prophet was on his death-bed,he asked to be given a pen and paper to write a will after which no muslim will go astray.knowing the intentions of the Prophet,umar ibn al-khattab said the Prophet is "delirious" and umar said that "the Quran is sufficient".thereupon the Prophet was greatly troubled by the insult of umar.this is known as "the hadith of pen and paper".nontheless,there are other ocassions when the Prophet declared Imam Ali as sucessor.

5. when the prophet was alive, who is the right man, i.e after the prophet,who is next to him in command?


Thanks

@ Abuhanafi, plz just read. after our discussion, u will be free to post.

Thanks

according to Shia Islam,there is an Imam Natiq and an Imam Samet.the Imam (divine leader) that is natiq (talking) is the one in command.the imam samet (silent) is the one that is the successor based on divine will of Almighty Allah.during the time of the Prophet,he was natiq.Imam Ali was "samet".likewise,during the time of Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain.Imam Hussain was samet and Imam Hassan was natiq.there cannot be two captains on one ship.the silent leader only compliments the efforts of the natiq.but in the absence of the natiq ,the samet is always given preference of leadership.

Thanks for accepting the terms.
On the above story i have 5 questions

1. were there any Muslim anywhere b4 this meeting? was Ali the first male to accept Islam or just the only one to accept amongst those at the meeting? if no, what number was he?

Imam Ali (as) was the first male to accept the Prophethood of Muhammad (sa) openly.since he is born an Imam,as we also believe Prophets are designated with prophethood even before their birth since Allah is full of knowledge and knows the unseen.Imam Ali was born a muslim and never bowed down to the idols of Quraysh.thus we hear sunnis says after the name of Ali is mentioned "karramallah wajhahu".i.e. "may Allah preserve his face.

so to cut it short,yes Imam Ali was the first male muslim after the Prophet.

Alhamdulillah.

from all angle, it is very clear that there was dispute in comfirming who was exactly the first muslim.

We were not there during the time of the prophet,all we heard was written story by some not confirmed. the claim that Ali was the first was not a comfirmed one, neither was that f Abu.

so for this reason, if shia,or sunni any of it claimed to say it was ali or abu, both may be wrong, as there is no authentic source to authenticate that story.

for this reason, i neither accept ur claim of Ali being the first muslim.

as well as after the events had become matters of intense dispute. In the eyes of the academic, there is not enough reliable data to form a firm conclusion.

Quote
3. was there no other person the prophet as called to lead while he was alive? was the person Ali? was there no one he commanded to lead in case he his not fit? was the person Ali?

from all records,there was not once that Imam Ali was present and available,that the Prophet would give preference to someone else.if someone else is given a task (like when the expedition of Tabuk was led by Usama Ibn Harith) it is either because Imam Ali was absent or had a more tasking assignment.this was perfectly displayed when the Prophet gave surat tauba to abu bakr to deliver to quraysh.as soon as Imam Ali made his presence available,the Prophet informed Imam Ali (as) that an order was given to Jibril informing the Prophet that Imam Ali should chase abu bakr and take the sura from him and that it must be Imam Ali who should deliver surat tawba.

on the issue of taking assignment, Ali is a strong man, which the prophet believe is more powerful to guide. upon taking something to somewhere, he can guide more than any. so if on that note, the prophet told him to, that's different from religious duty.

Have Ali ever lead prayers in order of the prophet? if yes was Abu present?


Quote
4. at his death, he set the example of writing will, was there anyone he gave the directory to lead when he was dying which signify taking over in his demise?


the Prophet made the declaration of Ghadir Khum,which is also known as "hadith of the pond of khumm".that declaration was made during the last pilgrimage of the Prophet as he knew it would be his last.that serves as an oral will.

when the Prophet was on his death-bed,he asked to be given a pen and paper to write a will after which no muslim will go astray.knowing the intentions of the Prophet,umar ibn al-khattab said the Prophet is "delirious" and umar said that "the Quran is sufficient".thereupon the Prophet was greatly troubled by the insult of umar.this is known as "the hadith of pen and paper".nontheless,there are other ocassions when the Prophet declared Imam Ali as sucessor.

this did not answer my question.

the question was that, while the prophet was dying, who did he told to lead prayers when he was down?

5. when the prophet was alive, who is the right man, i.e after the prophet,who is next to him in command?


Thanks

@ Abuhanafi, plz just read. after our discussion, u will be free to post.

Thanks

according to Shia Islam,there is an Imam Natiq and an Imam Samet.the Imam (divine leader) that is natiq (talking) is the one in command.the imam samet (silent) is the one that is the successor based on divine will of Almighty Allah.during the time of the Prophet,he was natiq.Imam Ali was "samet".likewise,during the time of Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain.Imam Hussain was samet and Imam Hassan was natiq.there cannot be two captains on one ship.the silent leader only compliments the efforts of the natiq.but in the absence of the natiq ,the samet is always given preference of leadership.

Is this explanation of ur Qur'anic or in any hadith? who defined it to be so, the prophet or who?

when u say according to shia, do u mean we should talk absed on shia or islam?

plz correct dat.

when u want to talk, you should say, according to islam or prophet. if what u are saying is not the saying of the prophet or qur'an, then u should say, what we assume in shia.

@bilms,you are judging him right,what about the kestra,fathah,and vowels are they from the Original Quran too,or are they from the prophet?whatever the Shia does may be traced back to what the prophet did,said or saw people doing and he dnt object it.sorry i came in though.

@The discussants; please forgive me, but the prophet [as] is ummiyyin [cant read or write according to the Quran being unlettered]. how is the hadith of pen and paper is supposed to come alive? was he going to dictate to people or write by himself? if dictating, our messenger [as] would with the same strength of asking for pen and paper speak so that people may hurry up to hear it and either pass it on orally, or orally as well as writing it down. what happened there at the "hadith of pen and paper" shall will not say it is Allah's Will that we did not know what could have been? is it possible that Umar [ra] could have intentionally, without knowing what the messenger [as] was going to "write" [writing is not a quality of the unlearned] prevented it? can anyone prevent the divine happening, already written?

also was suratul Taubah not revealed, to the messenger as other surahs or piece of revelation of the Quran, orally? since the prophet [as] could not write, didnt the scribes who he instructed to write as he recited, wrote them down? Or is surah Taubah came differently, that it was given to Abu Bakr [ra] as stated above, without anyone ever hearing it, but to be delivered to them, all together, muslims to hear it for the first time?

did i miss something here? i want to be corrected. are we saying that delivering the surah Taubah to "the Quraish" was to mean the commandment not let them come to the Kaaba after that year, but muslims have already learned the Surah, already? in that mission to deliver surah Taubah to the Quraishi leaders who were pagans, the commission was passed to Ali [ra]? either way, Ali was the one who slept on the bed of the messenger, remaining behind to administer the trust to the trustors in Makka of what the messenger [as] was trustee, while Abu Bakr [ra] was the companion in the hijr to Madina.

May Allah help our hearts and steady them on the righteous path.

bilms:

Alhamdulillah.

from all angle, it is very clear that there was dispute in comfirming who was exactly the first muslim.

We were not there during the time of the prophet,all we heard was written story by some not confirmed. the claim that Ali was the first was not a comfirmed one, neither was that f Abu.

so for this reason, if shia,or sunni any of it claimed to say it was ali or abu, both may be wrong, as there is no authentic source to authenticate that story.

for this reason, i neither accept your claim of Ali being the first muslim.

as well as after the events had become matters of intense dispute. In the eyes of the academic, there is not enough reliable data to form a firm conclusion.

In Shia hadiths,and among Shia Muslims and from tradition from the days of the Imams,it is undisputed that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the Prophet’s message.in Sunni hadiths,it is disputable because false hadiths have been put in to make abu bakr seem the “first muslim”.nontheless,I will present to you from only sunni hadith testifying that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the message of the Prophet Muhammad.note that twice I have stated that Imam Ali was the first to belive in the Prophet’s message and I did not say the “first to become muslim”.why?because Imam Ali was never a mushrik in the first place.abu bakr was a mushrik who used to worship idols.

Secondly,history does not lie.if we are to only examine the hadith which I presented on the verse of the Quran that ordered the messenger to warn his relatives and the hadith cites that from the Prophet’s relatives only Imam Ali answered positively to the Prophet,then there would be no dispute that Imam Ali was indeed muslim before abu bakr was.that is common sense as abu bakr was not of the banu hashem the Prophet invited.

Undisputed Sunni References acknowledging that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the Prophet’s message:

Ibn Abi Shaybah and Ibn Asakir recorded on the authority of Salim Ibn Abi Jaad that he said: I asked of Muhammad Ibn Hanifah, "was Abu Bakr the first of the people to adopt Islam?" He replied: "No".

And Ibn Asakir on a reliable ascription from Muhammad Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas, that he said to his father Sa'd: "was Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq the first of you in embracing the faith?" He said: "No, for there were more than five people in faith before him"

Ibn Kathir says: "it is clear that Muhammad's family believed before every other - his wife Khadija, his freedman Zaid and the Wife of Zaid Umm Ayman and Ali and Warakah."

Sunni reference:
• Tarikh al-Khulafaa, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p33 (History of the Caliphs translated by Major Barrett)

It is also narrated that :

Anas Ibn Malik said: "The Messenger was commissioned on Monday and Ali believed in him on Tuesday."
Sunni reference: al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p112

al-Hakim also narrated that:

Salman al-Farsi said that the Messenger of God said: "The first one of you to drink from the Basin on the Day of Judgment is your first Muslim, Ali, the son of Abu Talib."

Sunni reference: al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p112
Ibn Hisham recorded that:

Ali Ibn Abi Talib was the first male to believe in the Messenger of God and that he prayed with him while he was only ten years old.
Sunni reference: Biography of the Prophet, by Ibn Hisham, v1, p245

The famous Sunni Historian, al-Tabari also wrote:
The first three to offer prayers were Muhammad (PBUH&HF) , Khadija and Ali (AS).
Sunni reference: History al-Tabari, v2, p65

Also Khateeb al-Baghdadi, in his book quotes Imam Ali that:
Ali said: "I was the first one to accept Islam at the hands of the Holy Prophet."
• Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v4, p333

delete

Undisputed Sunni References acknowledging that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the Prophet’s message:


Ibn Abi Shaybah and Ibn Asakir recorded on the authority of Salim Ibn Abi Jaad that he said: I asked of Muhammad Ibn Hanifah, "was Abu Bakr the first of the people to adopt Islam?" He replied: "No".

And Ibn Asakir on a reliable ascription from Muhammad Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas, that he said to his father Sa'd: "was Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq the first of you in embracing the faith?" He said: "No, for there were more than five people in faith before him"

Ibn Kathir says: "it is clear that Muhammad's family believed before every other - his wife Khadija, his freedman Zaid and the Wife of Zaid Umm Ayman and Ali and Warakah."

Sunni reference:
• Tarikh al-Khulafaa, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p33 (History of the Caliphs translated by Major Barrett)

It is also narrated that :

please a moderator should kindly restore my posts in response to "bilms".the spambot has deleted my posts.its me "LagosShia".

@bilms

THE ISSUE OF WHO WAS THE "FIRST MUSLIM"?

In Shia hadiths,and among Shia Muslims and from tradition from the days of the Imams,it is undisputed that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the Prophet’s message.in Sunni hadiths,it is disputable because false hadiths have been put in to make abu bakr seem the “first muslim”.nontheless,I will present to you from only sunni hadith testifying that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the message of the Prophet Muhammad.note that twice I have stated that Imam Ali was the first to belive in the Prophet’s message and I did not say the “first to become muslim”.why?because Imam Ali was never a mushrik in the first place.abu bakr was a mushrik who used to worship idols.

Secondly,history does not lie.if we are to only examine the hadith which I presented on the verse of the Quran that ordered the messenger to warn his relatives and the hadith cites that from the Prophet’s relatives only Imam Ali answered positively to the Prophet,then there would be no dispute that Imam Ali was indeed muslim before abu bakr was.that is common sense as abu bakr was not of the banu hashem the Prophet invited.

@bilms

Undisputed Sunni References acknowledging that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the Prophet’s message:

Ibn Abi Shaybah and Ibn Asakir recorded on the authority of Salim Ibn Abi Jaad that he said: I asked of Muhammad Ibn Hanifah, "was Abu Bakr the first of the people to adopt Islam?" He replied: "No".

And Ibn Asakir on a reliable ascription from Muhammad Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas, that he said to his father Sa'd: "was Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq the first of you in embracing the faith?" He said: "No, for there were more than five people in faith before him"

Ibn Kathir says: "it is clear that Muhammad's family believed before every other - his wife Khadija, his freedman Zaid and the Wife of Zaid Umm Ayman and Ali and Warakah."

Sunni reference:
Tarikh al-Khulafaa, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p33 (History of the Caliphs translated by Major Barrett)

It is also narrated that :

Anas Ibn Malik said: "The Messenger was commissioned on Monday and Ali believed in him on Tuesday."
Sunni reference: al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p112

al-Hakim also narrated that:

Salman al-Farsi said that the Messenger of God said: "The first one of you to drink from the Basin on the Day of Judgment is your first Muslim, Ali, the son of Abu Talib."

Sunni reference: al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p112
Ibn Hisham recorded that:

Ali Ibn Abi Talib was the first male to believe in the Messenger of God and that he prayed with him while he was only ten years old.
Sunni reference: Biography of the Prophet, by Ibn Hisham, v1, p245

The famous Sunni Historian, al-Tabari also wrote:
The first three to offer prayers were Muhammad (PBUH&HF) , Khadija and Ali (AS).
Sunni reference: History al-Tabari, v2, p65

Also Khateeb al-Baghdadi, in his book quotes Imam Ali that:
Ali said: "I was the first one to accept Islam at the hands of the Holy Prophet."
Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v4, p333

Undisputed Sunni References acknowledging that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the Prophet’s message:

1.) Ibn Abi Shaybah and Ibn Asakir recorded on the authority of Salim Ibn Abi Jaad that he said: I asked of Muhammad Ibn Hanifah, "was Abu Bakr the first of the people to adopt Islam?" He replied: "No".

2.) And Ibn Asakir on a reliable ascription from Muhammad Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas, that he said to his father Sa'd: "was Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq the first of you in embracing the faith?" He said: "No, for there were more than five people in faith before him"

3.) Ibn Kathir says: "it is clear that Muhammad's family believed before every other - his wife Khadija, his freedman Zaid and the Wife of Zaid Umm Ayman and Ali and Warakah."

Sunni reference:
Tarikh al-Khulafaa, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p33 (History of the Caliphs translated by Major Barrett)

4.) It is also narrated that :

Anas Ibn Malik said: "The Messenger was commissioned on Monday and Ali believed in him on Tuesday."
Sunni reference: al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p112

5.) al-Hakim also narrated that:

Salman al-Farsi said that the Messenger of God said: "The first one of you to drink from the Basin on the Day of Judgment is your first Muslim, Ali, the son of Abu Talib."

Sunni reference: al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p112
Ibn Hisham recorded that:

6.) Ali Ibn Abi Talib was the first male to believe in the Messenger of God and that he prayed with him while he was only ten years old.
Sunni reference: Biography of the Prophet, by Ibn Hisham, v1, p245

7.) The famous Sunni Historian, al-Tabari also wrote:
The first three to offer prayers were Muhammad (PBUH&HF) , Khadija and Ali (AS).
Sunni reference: History al-Tabari, v2, p65

8.) Also Khateeb al-Baghdadi, in his book quotes Imam Ali that:
Ali said: "I was the first one to accept Islam at the hands of the Holy Prophet."
Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v4, p333

i still cannot post my replies.please a moderator should do something.

To others who are posting on this thread, i would implore you to respect the thread plz. this thread is for two, myself and lagoshia. at the end, every one would have the chance to post plz.

LagosShia:

@bilms

THE ISSUE OF WHO WAS THE "FIRST MUSLIM"?

In Shia hadiths,and among Shia Muslims and from tradition from the days of the Imams,it is undisputed that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the Prophet’s message.in Sunni hadiths,it is disputable because false hadiths have been put in to make abu bakr seem the “first muslim”.nontheless,I will present to you from only sunni hadith testifying that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the message of the Prophet Muhammad.note that twice I have stated that Imam Ali was the first to belive in the Prophet’s message and I did not say the “first to become muslim”.why?because Imam Ali was never a mushrik in the first place.abu bakr was a mushrik who used to worship idols.

Secondly,history does not lie.if we are to only examine the hadith which I presented on the verse of the Quran that ordered the messenger to warn his relatives and the hadith cites that from the Prophet’s relatives only Imam Ali answered positively to the Prophet,then there would be no dispute that Imam Ali was indeed muslim before abu bakr was.that is common sense as abu bakr was not of the banu hashem the Prophet invited.

I thought i have made this clear, no comparison with sunni. talk strictly on shia.

but in response to your message.

In Shia hadiths,and among Shia Muslims and from tradition from the days of the Imams,it is undisputed that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the Prophet’s message.in Sunni hadiths,it is disputable because false hadiths have been put in to make abu bakr seem the “first muslim”.nontheless,I will present to you from only sunni hadith testifying that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the message of the Prophet Muhammad.note that twice I have stated that Imam Ali was the first to belive in the Prophet’s message and I did not say the “first to become muslim”.why?because Imam Ali was never a mushrik in the first place.abu bakr was a mushrik who used to worship idols.

when you say false hadiths, who defined it to be false? some shia members.

If shia should present an hadith claiming Ali was the first, some sunni would claim it is also false.

and if you agree with me, both are sources of knowledge to be reckoned with.

that is why i said, there was no firm conclusion that can be reach as we were not there during there time. and even the world historian says that. so in what ever way you look at it, there is no way we can justify that.

My question was that, who was the first male muslim.

if u say u didn't say ali was the first muslim but the first to accept prophet mohammed\s message, what do you mean? do you mean other who had accepted islam before him didnt accept mohammed message?

bilms:

To others who are posting on this thread, i would implore you to respect the thread plz. this thread is for two, myself and lagoshia. at the end, every one would have the chance to post plz.

I thought i have made this clear, no comparison with sunni. talk strictly on shia.

you have made "clear" but you are the one comparing.you are the one telling that abu bakr was instrcuted by the Prophet to lead prayer and that is a sunni account.and that is false.its unfortunate ive not had the chance to reply.my posts were deleted.i will keep trying to post my replies on the issues you raised earlier on to clarify everything.

but in response to your message.

In Shia hadiths,and among Shia Muslims and from tradition from the days of the Imams,it is undisputed that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the Prophet’s message.in Sunni hadiths,it is disputable because false hadiths have been put in to make abu bakr seem the “first muslim”.nontheless,I will present to you from only sunni hadith testifying that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the message of the Prophet Muhammad.note that twice I have stated that Imam Ali was the first to belive in the Prophet’s message and I did not say the “first to become muslim”.why?because Imam Ali was never a mushrik in the first place.abu bakr was a mushrik who used to worship idols.

when you say false hadiths, who defined it to be false? some shia members.

If shia should present an hadith claiming Ali was the first, some sunni would claim it is also false.

the problem again i did not have the chance to post my replies and when i do they are deleted.i told you that there are sunni sahih hadiths which say Imam Ali was the "first muslim".in the sunni circle you can say there is confusion.its either Ali was "first" or abu bakr was first.so the sunnis have to decide for themselves.from the shia hadith,it is undisputed that Imam Ali was "first".the confusion stems from the contradictory hadiths found in sunni books.so its not the shia who are saying those hadiths are "false".it is your contradictory hadiths that testify to that.

and if you agree with me, both are sources of knowledge to be reckoned with.

that is why i said, there was no firm conclusion that can be reach as we were not there during there time. and even the world historian says that. so in what ever way you look at it, there is no way we can justify that.

My question was that, who was the first male muslim.

if u say u didn't say ali was the first muslim but the first to accept prophet mohammed\s message, what do you mean? do you mean other who had accepted islam before him didnt accept mohammed message?

why are you still comparing?i thought you dont want comparison?

when i say Imam Ali was first to accept the Prophet's message,what do i mean?i mean that Imam Ali was never a non-muslim to start with in the first place.he was born muslim.and he never was a mushrik to become a muslim as abu bakr was a mushrik who worshipped idols.Imam Ali never bowed down to idols.this was also answered in one of my posts deleted.

i will keep trying to post my replies even if i have to divide my replies into many posts.and i hope they will not get deleted.and maybe i may use other usernames other than this present one if it gets banned.

@bilms

Undisputed Sunni References acknowledging that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the Prophet’s message:

And Ibn Asakir on a reliable ascription from Muhammad Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas, that he said to his father Sa'd: "was Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq the first of you in embracing the faith?" He said: "No, for there were more than five people in faith before him"

Ibn Kathir says: "it is clear that Muhammad's family believed before every other - his wife Khadija, his freedman Zaid and the Wife of Zaid Umm Ayman and Ali and Warakah."

Sunni reference:
Tarikh al-Khulafaa, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p33 (History of the Caliphs translated by Major Barrett)

@bilms

Undisputed Sunni References acknowledging that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the Prophet’s message:

Ibn Abi Shaybah and Ibn Asakir recorded on the authority of Salim Ibn Abi Jaad that he said: I asked of Muhammad Ibn Hanifah, "was Abu Bakr the first of the people to adopt Islam?" He replied: "No".

And Ibn Asakir on a reliable ascription from Muhammad Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas, that he said to his father Sa'd: "was Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq the first of you in embracing the faith?" He said: "No, for there were more than five people in faith before him"
Sunni reference:
Tarikh al-Khulafaa, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p33 (History of the Caliphs translated by Major Barrett)

@bilms

Undisputed Sunni References acknowledging that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the Prophet’s message:


Ibn Abi Shaybah and Ibn Asakir recorded on the authority of Salim Ibn Abi Jaad that he said: I asked of Muhammad Ibn Hanifah, "was Abu Bakr the first of the people to adopt Islam?" He replied: "No".

before i present a scholarly work (with complete references) on the issue of whether or not abu bakr was asked by the Prophet to lead prayers when the Prophet was ill,let us consider 2 important points:

1.) abu bakr was ordered by the Prophet to join the army of Usama Ibn Zaid Ibn Haritha.abu bakr was supposed to obey the order of the Prophet and be under the leadership of Usama who was a young lad.abu bakr disobeyed the Prophet and refused to go.the excuse for abu bakr was that abu bakr did not want to leave the Prophet when the Prophet was very ill.this is another evidence of the beloved heros of sunnis disobeying the Prophet.the other incident was where umar refused that the Prophet should have a pen and paper to write a will.umar called the Prophet "delirious".all this drama was happening in the days when the mafia (umar and abu bakr) knew the Prophet was ill and will soon pass away.they were up to something.they wanted to grab power as obvious.if abu bakr was ordered by the Prophet to join an army and leave medina for a battle,why did abu bakr refuse to go? what right does abu bakr have to lead any prayer? it goes against any logic that the Prophet would ask abu bakr to lead prayers when abu bakr was in fact told to leave medina and join an army to fight a battle.

2.) we are informed that the Prophhet ordered abu bakr to lead prayers.at the same time,we are told that when the Prophet heard abu bakr was leading prayers,he asked 2 men to carry him on their shoulders to the Masjid (mosque).when the Prophet got there,he obstructed abu bakr's lead and took over and the Prophet himself led the prayer.sunnis would give the excuse that "later the Prophet led abu bakr while abu bakr led the congregation".that is ridiculous.two leaders for one prayer!!!that is what sunnis are telling us to cover the shame that the Prophet forced abu bakr away from leading the prayer.the question is:why would the Prophet ask abu bakr to lead prayer and then the Prophet himself rushed to take over the lead from abu bakr?

@bilms

Is this explanation of your Qur'anic or in any hadith? who defined it to be so, the prophet or who?

This explanation is from Shia hadith.you have asked me to give you what Shia Muslims believe and that is what I have done.whatever we believe is defined by Almighty Allah alone!

when u say according to shia, do u mean we should talk absed on shia or islam?
plz correct dat.

There is no difference between Shia and Islam.Shia is true Islam.using the word “Shia” is only a way to identify those who show love and loyalty to the Ahlul-Bayt.so to answer your question:it Is according to Islam.

when u want to talk, you should say, according to islam or prophet. if what u are saying is not the saying of the prophet or qur'an, then u should say, what we assume in shia.

We do not assume in Shia Islam nor are we confused or in doubt as you wanted us to believe that we should sit on the fence regarding the issue of who was the “first muslim”.when I say based on shia islam,I am saying that because you have insisted that I only give you the shia version and not the sunni version of anything.

As for the “Natiq” (talking) and “Samet” (silent) imam,this can even be understood only using common sense.ofcourse I do know that common sense is not common!!!

When two prophets or two imams are both alive and well,and they are part of an ummah (nation) with a political hierarchy (or even the lack of one),it is only natural that one of the two present must take precedence and leadership.the other would be his helper and later the successor.

[size=16pt]The Myth of Leading the Prayers[/size]

During his last days, the Prophet (s) was able to lead the prayers only once a day. When his sickness became severe, he was unable to go out and lead the prayers. During his sickness, he asked Imam Ali (a.s) to lead the prayers. But somehow, this fact had to be obliterated or at least rendered dubious in historical records. Therefore, years later under the two caliphs, gullible historians introduced Abu Bakr and Umar as persons who led the prayer in the place of the Prophet (s) during his illness. That history, which was manipulated, is obvious from the following contradictory versions:

________________________________________
[1] At-Tabari, vol.3, p.188-189, Habibus Sayyar, vol. 1, Part 3, p.77, Madarijun Nubuwwa, vol. 2, p.530, Tarikh al-Khamis, vol. 2, p.171, Ibnul Athir, vol. 2 p.120, ibn Abil Hadid, vol.1, p.53, vol.2, p.20.
[2] Stories From the Qur’an by S.M. Suhufi, p. 316, Arabic Text No. 119 at p. 351. [La’ana Allahu man takhallafa an jaishi Usama].


(73)
According to the earliest version of Muhammad ibn Isshaq, it is reported by Abdullah ibn Zam ibn al-Aswad that he was present near the ailing Prophet (s), when Bilal called out the Azan and inquired as to who should lead the prayers. The Prophet (s) told ibn Zam to ask anyone he may find at hand to lead the prayers. Ibn Zam said that on hearing this he came out, found that Abu Bakr was not present but Umar was. Ibn Zam asked Umar to lead the prayers. When Umar stood up and said the Takbir, the Prophet (s) heard Umar’s booming voice, and said, “Where is Abu Bakr? God and the Muslims refuse that Umar should lead the prayers.” Abu Bakr was sent for, but before he came, Umar had completed the Prayer. Feeling hurt at the incident, Umar asked ibn Zam, “Why did you do this to me? When I led the prayers, I thought that I was complying with the Prophet’s wish.” Ibn Zam replied, “The order was not from the Prophet. When I could not find Abu Bakr, I thought that you are the next best person to lead the prayers and therefore it was I who had asked you to lead the prayer.”[1]

The above version is improved and amended by Husain Dayar Bakhti by substituting the words that the Prophet (s) told ibn Zam that he might ask anyone he would find to lead the prayers, and in its place interpolating that the Prophet (s) asked Abdullah ibn Zam to ask Abu Bakr to lead the prayers but not finding Abu Bakr, he asked Umar to lead the prayers.[2]

But the great Sunni traditionist Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal gives a different version and narrates from Abdullah ibn Abbas who said:“During his sickness, the Prophet (s) sent for Ali (a.s) to be brought in immediately. Hearing this, Aa’isha said, ‘Why not my father Abu Bakr?’ The Prophet (s) said, ‘Very well’. Then Hafsa challenged, ‘Why only Abu Bakr, and not my father Umar?’ The Prophet (s) said, ‘Very Well’. Then, Ummul Fadhl said, ‘Why not my husband Abbas?’ The Prophet (s) said, ‘Very Well’. When all the three, Abu Bakr, Umar, and Abbas arrived, the Prophet (s) lifted his head and not finding Ali (a.s) among them, kept quiet. Umar understood that the Prophet (s) was not in favour of any of them and he said, ‘Let us move out’. Then Bilal, who had called out for prayer [called out the Azan] came in. Aa’isha said, ‘Abu Bakr is emotional and mild natured. Let Umar lead the prayer’. However, Abu Bakr went out to lead the prayer. Then the Prophet (s) finding himself slightly better, had himself lifted, his feet
________________________________________
[1] Seeratun Nabi, Vol. 4, p.330.
[2] Tarikh al-Khamis, vol. 2 p.181.



dragging on the ground, went into the mosque with the help of two persons…The Prophet (s) led the prayer and Abu Bakr was following him.”[1] Al-Bukhari and Muslim also report on lines similar to Ahmed bin Hanbal, with the addition that when Aa’isha and Hafsa were disputing as to whose father should lead the prayers, the Prophet (s) said, “You are [deceitful and cunning] like the women of Joseph.”[2]

At-Tabari has a different version according to which the Prophet (s) asked Abu Bakr to lead the Prayer. Aa’isha said, “Abu Bakr is a soft man.” The Prophet (s) said, “Then ask Umar to lead the prayers.” Umar replied, “I am not going to lead the prayer when Abu Bakr is present.” Therefore, Abu Bakr led the prayers.[3]

The incident was later manipulated in such a way as to suggest that, during the three days preceding the Prophet’s death, Abu Bakr led the prayers according to an indication (Ishara) given by the Prophet (s). This manipulation is later used to suggest that Abu Bakr was indicated to be the successor of the Prophet (s).[4]

Thus, historical facts were distorted and the precedence of Abu Bakr and Umar was sought to be established during the last days of the Prophet (s), as a prelude and a step in aide to challenge the wisdom of the Prophet’s words and deeds.[5]

After finishing the prayer, the Prophet (s) returned to his chamber and demanded that pen and parchment to be procured to write down his will and testament, so that the Muslim community might be rightly guided and not to fall into gross eternal error.[6] We have recounted this incident in detail in the preceding pages.

________________________________________
[1] Ahmed bin Hanbal's Musnad, vol. 1, p.356.
[2] Al-Bukhari, Kitabul Azan and Kitabul I’tisaam, Sahih of Muslim, vol. 1, part 3, p.79.
[3] Tabari, vol. 3, p.195
[4] Habib al-Sayyar, vol. 4, p. 356. Khilafah in Theory & Practice, p.48-49.
[5] The Caliphate, p. 196-207.
[6] The Caliphate, p. 212 and footnote 264.


http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/library/pro_ahl/imam03_husain/the_hidden_truth/11.htm

Sunni References acknowledging that Imam Ali was the first to believe in the Prophet’s message

Ibn Abi Shaybah and Ibn Asakir recorded on the authority of Salim Ibn Abi Jaad that he said: I asked of Muhammad Ibn Hanifah, "was Abu Bakr the first of the people to adopt Islam?" He replied: "No".

why can't you people respect simple rule.

the thread was said to be between two,myself and lagos shia, so why can't you just read? if you must show ur knowledge on the topic, open another thread.

LagosShia:

you have made "clear" but you are the one comparing.you are the one telling that abu bakr was instrcuted by the Prophet to lead prayer and that is a sunni account.and that is false.its unfortunate ive not had the chance to reply.my posts were deleted.i will keep trying to post my replies on the issues you raised earlier on to clarify everything.

the problem again i did not have the chance to post my replies and when i do they are deleted.i told you that there are sunni sahih hadiths which say Imam Ali was the "first muslim".in the sunni circle you can say there is confusion.its either Ali was "first" or abu bakr was first.so the sunnis have to decide for themselves.from the shia hadith,it is undisputed that Imam Ali was "first".the confusion stems from the contradictory hadiths found in sunni books.so its not the shia who are saying those hadiths are "false".it is your contradictory hadiths that testify to that.

why are you still comparing?i thought you dont want comparison?

when i say Imam Ali was first to accept the Prophet's message,what do i mean?i mean that Imam Ali was never a non-muslim to start with in the first place.he was born muslim.and he never was a mushrik to become a muslim as abu bakr was a mushrik who worshipped idols.Imam Ali never bowed down to idols.this was also answered in one of my posts deleted.

i will keep trying to post my replies even if i have to divide my replies into many posts.and i hope they will not get deleted.and maybe i may use other usernames other than this present one if it gets banned.

I made it clear and i never compare.

My post never said abu was ordered to lead, it only ask a question from you which u didn't reply.

secondly, if i say Abu lead, not comparing, only saying what i know about it issue.

please try reply my questions.

I have made it clear several times, i am not sunni, neither did i know about this contradiction you are talking about.

On the account of Ali, because he never worship idol, does that make him first to accept islam? and because Abu once worship idol does that bring him lower than Ali?