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Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? - Religion - Nairaland

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Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 4:37pm On Jan 13, 2011
Here is an article I found about the Mother Theresa you may have never heard about. Please respect the thread and keep insults out of the way. If you disagree with anything here just provide your reasons and if possible, reference or evidence for it.

An Albanian, born in Skopje, Macedonia, Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu at the age of 17 joined an Irish order of nuns, the Sisters of Lareto, so named for the place in Italy that has Jesus's house, flown in specially by angels from Nazareth.

Dulcet: Let me break into the Mother Theresa article here to state that there is a lot of recent evidence that Nazareth was actually a burial ground with tombs in the 1st century A.D. It did not start becoming a village until later at the 4th century so either the dates are wrong by 400 years or else maybe Jesus was born elsewhere (Nazareth does not even show up in the Old Testament or the Talmud. St Paul and Rabbi Soli's real and fake writings don't mention Nazareth either, nor does any ancient historian or geographer). In fact the church Father Origen in 3rd century knew the gospel story of the city of Nazareth ~ yet had no clear idea where it was ~ even though he lived at Caesarea, barely thirty miles from the town - that Empress Helena went to in 4th century and found nothing except a hole in the ground - the only source of water in the area. Quickly Helena said the well was the place where angel Gabriel appeared to Mary.

This Jesus-of-Nazareth business started with the writer of Matthew who stylishly rewrote the Nazarite concept as Nazarene as if a native of Nazareth and fabricated a village in 1 A.D. Nazareth to put Jesus in. Luke copied the idea from Matthew and destroyed it while stretching it:  ",  and brought him to the precipice of the mountain that their city was built upon. – Luke 4.29" whereas it is known today that Nazareth is a high basin set in a depression and there is no peak or cliff anywhere around it.


Our heroine took the name Teresa and accepted missionary work in India. Twenty years passed before the Vatican allowed her to leave her post in the convent and work directly in the city of Calcutta. Here, under the jurisdiction of its archbishop, the canny Teresa identified a niche market, the dying poor, whose souls at least could be dispatched to the Catholic Heaven. Until her own death in 1997 Teresa spent her life actively seeking publicity – and funds – for her mission.

She formed a group, the Missionaries of Charity, to help street people die with a little dignity and Catholic sacraments ringing in their ears (they were too far gone to realize they were being baptized into a faith they neither knew nor cared for). Her first Home for the Dying opened in 1952 and some 450 others followed, in India and around the world, including an AIDS hospice in New York.

Contrary to popular myth, she did not build hospitals or offer medical care to the sick. Teresa's policy was one of non-intervention, in which God decided who was to live and who was to die. She actually ran a primitive and poorly equipped hospice, where "saved" Indians could meet their Christian maker. Although she preserved her own health at costly Western clinics (and had a pace maker fitted) she forbade the purchase of even basic medical equipment for her clinics.

Teresa was not interested in making the poor less poor (by, for example, helping them restrict family size) but in making them more Catholic.

The late 1950s and early 1960s was a time of crisis and internal dissension in the Roman Church, as it stumbled towards an accommodation with the modern world. The Second Ecumenical Council (Vatican II - 1962-1965) was either the "springtime" of a new Catholicism or the start of the rot which has seen attendance of Mass decline by 66 per cent and the number of teaching nuns fall by 94 per cent.

Into this fury of Catholic in-fighting entered "Mother Teresa" and her houses of death, a pinup for the forces of Catholic reaction. Teresa's Christianity was quite simply medieval. She urged the poor to think of their suffering as a "gift from God." She described abortion for ra[b]p[/b]e victims as "pure killing." Her small Calcutta clinics eschewed the use of painkillers in accordance with the primitive doctrine of "redemption of the soul through suffering".

A British media luminary (and pious Catholic) Malcolm Muggeridge now took a hand to elevate to stardom the diminutive zealot he so admired with a hagiographic movie "Something Beautiful for God" (1969), proclaiming to a credulous media circus that "an actual miracle had taken place during filming".

The exemplar of a good Christian was formed and was quickly embraced by a papacy fast retreating from the high tide of liberalism. Jet-setting the world went Teresa, her saintly celebrity rallying the faithful in hot spots of evangelism and extracting funds from Catholics who served Christ vicariously through their chequebook. And the money certainly poured in, notoriously from the likes of the Duvalier gang in Haiti and Charles Keating, the biggest fraudster in US history (the Lincoln Savings and Loan scam). Keating chipped in more than a $million for Teresa and she reciprocated with a character reference for his day in court. The Lord sure moves in mysterious ways.

Journalists have estimated the Missionaries of Charity receive as much as US$100 million a year, although no accounts are published. Some maintain that the money is transferred to the Istituto per Opere Religiosi (the Vatican Bank), where it is diverted into non-Christian countries for "missionary work" – more nunneries and convents. A 1991 audit of the UK operation revealed that only 7% of the total income of about US$2.6 million went into charity work. The rest was remitted to the Vatican Bank.

On 5 September, 1997 Teresa died. Her crony, Pope John Paul II, the most prolific creator of saints in history, couldn't wait to get beatification underway. Precisely one year after Teresa's death the required miracle occurred. A photograph of Mother Teresa beamed a light at a Calcuttan woman and overnight she lost a big tumour. Wow! In October 2002, the Congregation for the Causes of Saints recognised the miracle and a year after that John Paul beatified his old pal. Can any one doubt that the necessary second miracle is just around the corner and a new star will join the firmament? As the Yorubas say, 'The witch wailed last night and the child died today. Know we not that the witch killed the child?"

What do you think?
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 4:39pm On Jan 13, 2011
"Three of Mother Teresa's teachings that are fundamental to her religious congregation are all the more dangerous because they are believed so sincerely by her sisters.

Most basic is the belief that as long as a sister obeys she is doing God's will.

Another is the belief that the sisters have leverage over God by choosing to suffer. Their suffering makes God very happy. He then dispenses more graces to humanity.

The third is the belief that a[b]ny attachment to human beings, even the poor being served, supposedly interferes with love of God and must be vigilantly avoided or immediately uprooted[/b].

The efforts to prevent any attachments cause continual chaos and confusion, movement and change in the congregation. Mother Teresa did not invent these beliefs - they were prevalent in religious congregations before Vatican II - but she did everything in her power (which was great) to enforce them."

– Susan Shields, former sister with Missionaries of Charity.
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 7:33pm On Jan 18, 2011
No responses grin I guess the first post was too long.
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by e36991: 8:22pm On Jan 18, 2011
Dulcet7:


Here is an article I found about the Mother Theresa you may have never heard about.

Please respect the thread and keep insults out of the way.

If you disagree with anything here just provide your reasons and if possible, reference or evidence for it.


- contents here were snipped -


Journalists have estimated the Missionaries of Charity receive as much as US$100 million a year, although no accounts are published.

Some maintain that the money is transferred to the Istituto per Opere Religiosi (the Vatican Bank),

where it is diverted into non-Christian countries for "missionary work" – more nunneries and convents.

A 1991 audit of the UK operation revealed that only 7% of the total income of about US$2.6 million went into charity work.

The rest was remitted to the Vatican Bank.


- contents here were snipped -


Dulcet7:


"Three of Mother Teresa's teachings that are fundamental to her religious congregation are all the more dangerous because they are believed so sincerely by her sisters.

Most basic is the belief that as long as a sister obeys she is doing God's will.

Another is the belief that the sisters have leverage over God by choosing to suffer. Their suffering makes God very happy. He then dispenses more graces to humanity.

The third is the belief that any attachment to human beings, even the poor being served, supposedly interferes with love of God and must be vigilantly avoided or immediately uprooted.

The efforts to prevent any attachments cause continual chaos and confusion, movement and change in the congregation.

Mother Teresa did not invent these beliefs - they were prevalent in religious congregations before Vatican II - but she did everything in her power (which was great) to enforce them."

– Susan Shields, former sister with Missionaries of Charity.


shocked shocked shocked  grin
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by TheClown: 1:39pm On Jan 19, 2011
The writer of this article might want to take a trip to India to find out first hand how she touched the live there, even the Indian government appreciates her!

Question is: Is it that no one in India realised that all she did was lay people to their eventual rest amidst poor facilities?

Well, you obviosly know nothing about that woman and your anti-Catholic self is manisfesting itself on paper.
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 5:23pm On Jan 19, 2011
Hello The Clown, hope you are having a great day?

I am not anti-Catholic, the writer of the article is not biased, and Mother Theresa should be appreciated (not worshipped as an Epitome of Love) because as it is said, "The one-eyed man will be king among blind people".

An article about her on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa . There is too much to repeat here, but we will manage.


By the 1970s, she was internationally famed as a humanitarian and advocate for the poor and helpless, due in part to a documentary and book Something Beautiful for God by Malcolm Muggeridge.


She has also been criticized for her view on suffering. She felt that suffering would bring people closer to Jesus.[43] Sanal Edamaruku, President of Rationalist International , criticised the failure to give pain killers, writing that in her Homes for the Dying, one could “hear the screams of people having maggots tweezered from their open wounds without pain relief. On principle, strong painkillers are even in hard cases not given. According to Mother Teresa's bizarre philosophy, it is ‘the most beautiful gift for a person that he can participate in the sufferings of Christ’.”[44]

The quality of care offered to terminally ill patients in the Homes for the Dying has been criticised in the medical press. The Lancet and the British Medical Journal reported the reuse of hypodermic needles, poor living conditions, including the use of cold baths for all patients, and an approach to illness and suffering that precluded the use of many elements of modern medical care, such as systematic diagnosis.[45] Dr. Robin Fox, editor of The Lancet, described the medical care as "haphazard", as volunteers without medical knowledge had to take decisions about patient care, because of the lack of doctors. He observed that her order did not distinguish between curable and incurable patients, so that people who could otherwise survive would be at risk of dying from infections and lack of treatment.[46]

Colette Livermore, a former Missionary of Charity, describes her reasons for leaving the order in her book Hope Endures: Leaving Mother Teresa, Losing Faith, and Searching for Meaning. Livermore found what she called Mother Teresa's "theology of suffering" to be flawed, despite being a good and courageous person. Though Mother Teresa instructed her followers on the importance of spreading the Gospel through actions rather than theological lessons, Livermore could not reconcile this with some of the practices of the organization. Examples she gives include unnecessarily refusing to help the needy when they approached the nuns at the wrong time according to the prescribed schedule, discouraging nuns from seeking medical training to deal with the illnesses they encountered (with the justification that God empowers the weak and ignorant), and imposition of "unjust" punishments, such as being transferred away from friends. Livermore says that the Missionaries of Charity "infantilized" its nuns by prohibiting the reading of secular books and newspapers, and emphasizing obedience over independent thinking and problem-solving.[47]


The spending of the charity money received has been criticized by some. Christopher Hitchens and the German magazine Stern have said Mother Teresa did not focus donated money on alleviating poverty or improving the conditions of her hospices, but on opening new convents and increasing missionary work.[55]

Additionally, the sources of some donations accepted have been criticized. Mother Teresa accepted donations from the autocratic and corrupt Duvalier family in Haiti and openly praised them. She also accepted 1.4 million dollars from Charles Keating, involved in the fraud and corruption scheme known as the Keating Five scandal and supported him before and after his arrest. The Deputy District Attorney for Los Angeles, Paul Turley, wrote to Mother Teresa asking her to return the donated money to the people Keating had stolen from, one of whom was "a poor carpenter". The donated money was not accounted for, and Turley did not receive a reply.[56]
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by JeSoul(f): 5:48pm On Jan 19, 2011
This is very interesting.

My knowedge of Mama Theresa is a shade lighter than pedestrian and pop culture has her depicted as the saint we should all aspire to be. It appears we have been sheltered from knowing crucial facts. Again, this is very interesting. If that was indeed her view on suffering - denying pain relief to the sick under the insistence that it brings one closer to Christ - then shocked  Misusing donations? openly supporting corrupt leaders? shocked

Are there any who'd like to speak in favor of the defense?
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Nobody: 5:52pm On Jan 19, 2011
@dulcet 7

Was  that the only thing you saw on her wikipedia page,why did you restrict your self only to the criticisms she received  from a few individuals without even bothering to as certain their veracity.What about the praises and honours she received virtually all over the world why did you fail to mention it.

Mother theresa whether you like it or not remains the greatest christian of the last 100 yeras
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Nobody: 5:55pm On Jan 19, 2011
It is ridiculous for anyone to say mother theresa embezzled funds donated to charity where are the proofs ?Mother theresa sacrificed vitually all she had to feed the less privilege,what more do you expect from her?
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 6:40pm On Jan 19, 2011
chukwudi44:

@dulcet 7

Was  that the only thing you saw on her wikipedia page,why did you restrict your self only to the criticisms she received  from a few individuals without even bothering to as certain their veracity.What about the praises and honours she received virtually all over the world why did you fail to mention it.
Hello Chukwudi. Here is an article I found about the Mother Theresa you may have never heard about. That was what I said. Many people (like Jesoul too has said) have a hagiographical view of Mother Theresa which idolizes her. This thread wants to examine Mother Theresa minus all the hagiography and idol-worship.

Mother theresa whether you like it or not remains the greatest christian of the last 100 yeras
I agree that she may be one of the world's 100 most influential people, thanks to all the publicity. Here http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/0,28757,1984685,00.html
But Greatest Christian? I really don't know about that. In fact, I doubt any human being can make such an assertion about a fellow human being and be accurate. Jesus said the greatest has a loving heart like that of a little child.

In her case, it seemed like more of religious activity than love. A lot of evidence makes it seem like she was actually canonized by force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Aplank/Mother_Teresa
Following Teresa's death in 1997, the Holy See began the process of beatification, the first step towards possible canonisation, or sainthood. This process requires the documentation of a miracle. In 2002, the Vatican recognised as a miracle the healing of a tumour in the abdomen of an Indian woman, Monica Besra, following the application of a locket containing Teresa's picture.

This purported miracle attracted considerable controversy. Besra's husband reportedly said that the lump in his wife's adomen was not cured by divine intervention, but by hospital treatment. According to a report in Time magazine, records of her treatment were removed by a member of Mother Teresa's order. The Balurghat Hospital where Besra was treated reported coming under pressure from the missionaries to acknowledge that the healing process was the result of a miracle.

It is ridiculous for anyone to say mother theresa embezzled funds donated to charity where are the proofs ?Mother theresa sacrificed vitually all she had to feed the less privilege,what more do you expect from her?
Embezzled? I can't find that in this thread. Rather, she misappropriated funds.

Scenario: [/i]A philantrophist sees people suffering in Theresa's [i]Home for the Dying and he feels they can get better medical attention, so he gives them money. Theresa and her administration rather forwards it to the Vatican so that they can build more Catholic churches. This is a moral crime - and can be seen as duping the general public. Religion, Catholicism, Christianity or not: I sincerely can't see an iota of love in such actions.

This is the same way some churches collect donations and tithes today and the pastors use it to buy private jets. Of course the private jet will be used to move around and spread the gospel ~ in order to make more money ~ and buy more jets and better lifestyles.
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Nobody: 6:41pm On Jan 19, 2011
JeSoul:

This is very interesting.

My knowedge of Mama Theresa is a shade lighter than pedestrian and pop culture has her depicted as the saint we should all aspire to be. It appears we have been sheltered from knowing crucial facts. Again, this is very interesting. If that was indeed her view on suffering - denying pain relief to the sick under the insistence that it brings one closer to Christ - then shocked  Misusing donations? openly supporting corrupt leaders? shocked

Are there any who'd like to speak in favor of the defense?
You are into left-wing politics Jesoul even though you claim to be a born-again Christian. How does that one work. As for the nun Theresa what 's your business with her?
Plough your own furrow.
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 6:51pm On Jan 19, 2011
And besides the misappropriation, there is also the problem of people like Keating. Chukwudi asked for evidence? This is very well known in history.

Christopher Hitchens wrote in The Nation papers

“ Then there was her business dealings. How did she come to hear of Charles Keating, chairman of the Lincoln savings and Loan Company, now in jail for the biggest fraud in American history? In return for half a million dollars and the use of Keating private jet, Mother Teresa showered blessings on this gentleman and gave him a personal crucifix which he used as they say to enhance his credibility.”

The judge who presided the trial was the later notorious Judge Lance Ito (remember the O.J. Simpson trial) During the course of the trial, Teresa wrote to the court seeking clemency for Keating. In his capacity as Deputy District attorney for Los Angeles, Mr. Paul Turley wrote back to Mother. Here is à brief excerpt of his letter,

“Mr. Keating was convicted of defrauding 17 individuals of more then $900,000. These 17 persons were representative of 17,000 individuals from whom Mr. Keating stole $252,000,000. You urge Judge Ito to look into his heart—as he sentenced Charles Keating—and do what Jesus would do. I submit the same challenge to you…I submit that Jesus would promptly and unhesitatingly return the stolen property to its rightful owners.”

Three years later, Mr. Turley had yet to receive a reply from Teresa.

And this is an article by the Catholic League on the same topic, refuting Hitchens. It shows that well-informed Catholics know about all of this.
http://www.catholicleague.org/research/hating_mother_teresa.htm

Keating gave Mother Teresa one and a quarter million dollars. It does not matter to Hitchens that all of the money was spent before anyone ever knew of his shenanigans. What matters is that Mother Teresa gave to the poor a lot of money taken from a rich guy who later went to jail. But her biggest crime, according to Hitchens, was writing a letter to Judge Lance Ito (yeah, the same one) "seeking clemency for Mr. Keating."

It would be rather audacious of Mother Teresa if she were to intervene in a trial "seeking clemency" for the accused, unless, of course, she had evidence that the accused was innocent. But she did nothing of the kind: what she wrote to Judge Ito was a reference letter, not a missive "seeking clemency."

"I do not know anything about Mr. Charles Keating's work," Mother Teresa said, "or his business or the matters you are dealing with." She then explains her letter by saying "Mr. Keating has done much to help the poor, which is why I am writing to you on his behalf."

There are also records of other questionable financial positions. In one occasion, Mother Teresa accepted $10,000 from John Roger-leader of the MSIA cult (pronounced Messiah) . This man has repeatedly claimed to have à spiritual consciousness that is superior to that of Jesus Christ. Roger’s cult has repeatedly been exposed as corrupt and fanatical
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 7:02pm On Jan 19, 2011
What I am saying is that Mother Theresa did good works, but she is not the Epitome of Love that many think she is (thanks to the media). Neither is Gandhi. Neither are any of the rest of us. Why is it that there is no known slander about, for example, Jesus Christ? Probably because there is none at all. I think all human beings are frail except for the one who is the Epitome of Love, and I honestly think the canonization of human beings is an effete exercise.
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by DeepSight(m): 8:16pm On Jan 19, 2011
Dulcet, what is your view of Mahatma Ghandi?
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 8:57pm On Jan 19, 2011
Deep Sight:

Dulcet, what is your view of Mahatma Ghandi?

Hello Deep Sight. To me, Gandhi is not really too different from Adolf Hitler at the core of their hearts, although the extents of their outward actions and reactions differed somewhat. I think he was an [i]exemplary [/i]leader who stood and fought for only his own people.
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by DeepSight(m): 10:02am On Jan 20, 2011
Dulcet7:

Hello Deep Sight. To me, Gandhi is not really too different from Adolf Hitler at the core of their hearts, although the extents of their outward actions and reactions differed somewhat. I think he was an [i]exemplary [/i]leader who stood and fought for only his own people.

1. Please can you very sincerely tell me if there is something wrong with spending one's lifetime fighting for one's people?

2. Do you really think your comparison of Ghandi to Hitler is sustainable?

3. Do you believe in reincarnation?

4. What is your view of dreams, visions and clairvoyance?

5. What is your view of Deism?

Thanks.
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 12:19pm On Jan 20, 2011
Good morning, Deep Sight.

Deep Sight:

1. Please can you very sincerely tell me if there is something wrong with spending one's lifetime fighting for one's people?
Oh no! Not at all! But he who is always fighting for ONLY his own people will be wrong sometimes since his own people are not always right. No human is always right.

But there is a subtle distinction between the two of them. I believe the mark of a true leader, and especially one who is revered and/or considered to represent love for humanity : is being able to check your own people ~ and when they are wrong: chastize them too, rather than always standing for them. That would be true fairness. In this regard, Gandhi was a lot better than Hitler because he seemed to check his people when they were going wrong. e.g. When Ghandi's non-violent marches turned into a brutal murder of 8 British military officers, Gandhi was very upset. He thought this to be worse than what they had before and he refused to eat or drink until all the killings has stopped and the Indians once again began to march and use passive resistance to gain their independence (Gandhi often referred to this as Swaraj or self-rule). Some historians believe Gandhi stepped in because he knew if it became an all-out war, the Indians would never stand a chance.

To the topic, Theresa believed in Catholicism and it clouded the better judgement of her charity: the people she appeared to be caring for were suffering, and she rather diverted funds to Catholicism. She was always fighting for her own people - Catholics. She could have chosen to use the funds to provide better care for the recipients of her charity. In her case, I can say fanaticism was a greater factor than hypocrisy (I do not know if that can be factored in her case).

Meanwhile, Gandhi's treatment of Black people was considered worse than the treatment of the British people upon his own people, the Indians. I believe that might amount to hypocrisy - and hypocrisy is almost inevitable when you are always fighting for your own people and you try to be diplomatic to those you are fighting against.

Deep Sight:

2. Do you really think your comparison of Ghandi to Hitler is sustainable?
Besides the comparison set out above, I think their lives are quite similar beneath their skins. Hitler was an extrovertedly violent person and Gandhi was an introvertedly violent person. Hitler achieved his aims via sadism: torturing millions to achieve his own desired aims, while Gandhi was a masochist: tortured himself, his wife, his sons, his closest followers. Both sadists and masochists are psychologically weak folk - one is a violent hypocrite who is non-violent from afar (only to those outside his world) and the other is an outwardly violent person who inflicts wickedness to those outside his world.

Deep Sight:

3. Do you believe in reincarnation?
I don't have any complete thoughts about reincarnation - the way it is popularly preached. I have heard accounts of people who relate déjà vu - like thoughts, knowledge and experiences with reincarnation but I personally have none. It might be a possibility but I do not have enough evidence in either case about the after-life.

My own views on reincarnation are an inward type. I believe when we miss a chance to live right, if our hearts receive correction from the Laws of Life and we are repentant inside, we will face another almost exact opportunity manifested in another way, along our experience in life ~ and if our hearts had received proper instruction, we will have that chance again within the same life. Also, when we do right with a chance that we have in life, more opportunities of the same nature will surface - but they will be opportunities that will also involve those who had missed that same thing in the past ~ so that you who did better can help them. The more they miss it, the more people who have done it right, 1, then 2 or more at once, and more over time, will come across their paths. Something like that. Jesus Christ in the Bible is said to have said something like that in the parable of the talents.

Deep Sight:

4. What is your view of dreams, visions and clairvoyance?
I believe visions, dreams and clairvoyance are gifts given by God to men. I have personally sensed many things only to find out later that they are exactly so. I used to be amazed at my intuition but recently I am more comfortable with it. I don't believe anybody can control them, but when they come like unsolicited visitors, they come as a part of the person's experience. The more visions, dreams and clairvoyance you have in your experience, the greater the rising of two temptations.
1. One will be tempted to depend on them, and this can lead one astray into the wide arms of deception.
2. One might be tempted to take them for granted and sometimes ignore or even deride them.
I believe the right path will be a line between these two errors, and the thinner the line, the better.

Deep Sight:

5. What is your view of Deism?
Thanks.
I believe Deism, just like any other religion, is neither right nor wrong. I believe it is only another means of transportation in the human experience of love. One may be Deist and wicked, another may be Deist and walk in love. Like I told Image123 Religion is a mask, a cloak around the human heart. So a mask is never right or wrong but when a man wears a mask to rob a bank, it's a crime. Another wears same mask to play with his kids, its referred to as love.
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 12:25pm On Jan 20, 2011
More on Gandhi and Hitler, Gandhi wrote two letters to Hitler asking him to attempt non-violence. He called him his friend and he said he wrote them because people pressurized him into doing so, but history shows that this was right after Hitler started working up a formula to end [/b]the Indians (During a meeting with Lord Halifax in 1938, Hitler had pledged his support to the preservation of the British empire and offered his formula for dealing with the Indian National Congress: [b]kill Gandhi, if that isn't enough then kill the other leaders too, if that isn't enough then two hundred more activists, and so on until the Indian people will give up the hope of independence). Thus it will seem like the letters were more in self-defense against violence by suggesting non-violence, rather than out of love for humanity.
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 12:40pm On Jan 20, 2011
I can't find the second letter online but this is the first letter
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gandhi_to_Hitler.jpg

Transcript:
As at Wardha,
C. P.,
23-7-'39

Dear friend,

Friends have been urging me to write to you for the sake of humanity. But I have resisted their request, because of the feeling that any letter from me would be an impertinence. Something tells me that I must not calculate and that I must make my appeal for whatever it may be worth.

It is quite clear that you are today the one person in the world who can prevent a war which may reduce humanity to a savage state. Must you pay that price for an object however worthy it may appear to you to be? Will you listen to the appeal of one who has deliberately shunned the method of war not without considerable success? Any way I anticipate your forgiveness, if I have erred in writing to you.

I remain,

Your sincere friend

M. K. Gandhi

HERR HITLER
BERLIN
GERMANY.

Unfortunately, this particular letter never reaches Hitler due to an intervention by the British government. Then World War II kicked in.
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 1:23pm On Jan 20, 2011
While searching for Gandhi's letters to Hitler I found this, it strongly stinks of inward violence and hypocrisy in this revered person called Gandhi:

"From Unconsciousness to Consciousness"
http://www.messagefrommasters.com/Osho/osho_on/osho_mahatma_gandhi.htm

For example, I would like to say something about Mahatma Gandhi. It was an everyday affair in his ashram that some disciple failed him, because what he was asking of those poor people was so unnatural, so devoid of any reason and sense, that unless they were absolute idiots they were going to fail him. That was the only way to save themselves, otherwise they would be destroyed by him. In Mahatma Gandhi's ashram you could not drink tea. That was enough to fail him. Now, tea is such an innocent thing. Buddhist monks have used it for thousands of years as a help to meditation because it keeps you alert, awake. When you are feeling sleepy, just a cup of tea brings you a little awareness.

The story is that Bodhidharma was determined to remain awake for twenty-four hours. But the body is the body, the eyelids get tired, and when they get tired the eyes close. He became so angry that he cut off his eyelids and threw them in the grass. Then his eyes could not be closed. It is a symbolic story. It did not happen, it cannot happen -- because I know Bodhidharma perfectly well, He is the last person to do such a thing. But the story is significant, although it is just a story: those eyelids grew into a plant that became the tea plant. And because those were the eyelids of a man like Bodhidharma, the tea still carries the quality of awareness. That is the significance of the story.

In every Buddhist monastery, the first thing is the tea. But in Gandhi's ashram, if somebody was caught drinking tea it was a great sin: he has failed the master. And the master was a sado-masochist. All disciplinarians, whether they are mahatmas, sages, rabbis, saints, principals, teachers, headmasters -- all disciplinarians are, deep down, dictatorial.

Discipline is a beautiful name for an ugly thing: dictatorship. But you cannot revolt against a disciplinarian. You can revolt against a dictator. You can revolt against Stalin, you can revolt against Mussolini, but you cannot revolt against Mahatma Gandhi, and there is the danger.

Why can't you revolt against Mahatma Gandhi? -- because before he disciplines you, he tortures himself. He is a sado-masochist. Before he tortures you, he tortures himself more than he is asking you to. You cannot revolt. This man is not simply torturing you like Joseph Stalin. He has tortured himself, he has disciplined himself, far deeper than he is asking you. How can you revolt against him? You cannot find any excuse.
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 1:23pm On Jan 20, 2011

Gandhi had one ashram in South Africa, in the beginning of his career of mahatmahood. The ashram was called the Phoenix Ashram. There, he tortured his wife and his children so immensely that I wonder why nobody bothers and nobody thinks about it. And people like Richard Attenborough make films on Gandhi, and all that is essential, all that should be brought to the eyes of the people, is completely left out. Perhaps these people like Attenborough are blind completely -- blinded by his mahatmahood.

What was he doing to his wife? First, she had to clean the toilet, and you don't know the Indian toilet. Don't compare it with the Western toilet. The Western toilet can be cleaned, there is no problem. There is nothing to clean, it is already clean. But the Indian toilet is really dirty. And Kasturba, Gandhi's wife, could not say no either, because Gandhi himself was cleaning. When the husband is cleaning, she knew that he was a mahatma. She knew that it was a dirty job and she did not feel like cleaning other people's dirt and carrying it out from the outhouse, way back, and throwing all the shit into a ditch -- because Gandhi had this idea that the shit should not be misused. Everything had to be used.

He was really a miser. There is no question about why he suffered from constipation -- his whole life he was carrying the enema with him everywhere -- it was his psychology. The shit had to be collected and thrown into a ditch behind the house, and then mud had to be thrown over it, so it becomes manure for the next year's crops.

Now, for Kasturba it was so difficult. And the way it has to be carried in India, you cannot believe. But in India, they have reduced one fourth of the country to such a state that they are not allowed to do any other work. So only this work is available, they have to do it. They are born to do it; that is their destiny. So they collect the shit in buckets, and carry it on their heads for miles. In India, Kasturba had never thought that she would have to do this, because she belonged to a higher caste; she was not a sudra, an untouchable.

But Gandhi was carrying it himself, and he was the mahatma. And when he carries it he gets a subtle right over you. You have to understand the subtle power politics in such small things. Because he gets up at three o'clock in the morning, everybody has to get up at three o'clock in the morning. And when the old man is getting up at three o'clock: you are young, you will feel guilty if you don't get up. And if you are caught, then you have failed the master. And what is the master going to do? He will not punish you, he will punish himself -- because he had this egoistic idea that if he is truly pure then nothing can go wrong around him, then everything is going to be right. If anything goes wrong, that simply means something is impure in him, so he has to purify himself by fasting.

So if you fail him, he will torture himself. That will create even more of a burden on you. First: guilt that you failed him. Second: guilt that now he is suffering because of your stupidity -- you could have awakened at three o'clock, it was not such a big deal. And now for a few days, nobody knows. . . because he would always start a "fast unto death." Although he never fasted unto death he would always start a fast unto death.

Then Gandhi had to be persuaded; then all the leaders of the country had to run to his ashram and say to him, "Just for one man's failure you cannot punish the whole country." Then after two or three days he would be ready to take food, and that one man would be condemned by the whole country. He had been punished more than you could have imagined. Wherever he went, people would talk about him: "This is the man for whom Gandhi is fasting unto death." And if Gandhi died, they would have killed this man, they would not have left this man alive.
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 1:24pm On Jan 20, 2011

One night Gandhi threw Kasturba, who was pregnant, out of the house because she was reluctant to clean the latrine. A pregnant woman, a woman who does not know any other language, in a foreign country, absolutely dependent on him -- he closed the door, threw her out, and said, "If you don't clean the latrine, then this is not your house, then you don't belong to me. If you cannot follow my discipline, if my own wife fails me, then who else is going to listen to me? In the cold winter Kasturba wept outside and finally decided that she should agree to clean the latrine. Only when she agreed to clean the latrine was she allowed in. Now, you can fail such a man very easily by anything, just by smoking a cigarette, drinking a cup of tea, anything.

[b]He did not allow his children to be educated. He didn't send them to school. They wanted to go, their mother wanted it also. [/b]Naturally she wanted them to be educated, "otherwise who is going to feed them? And their whole life is ahead of them. You are educated, you are a barrister, you earn. And you are a mahatma -- even if you don't earn, you have thousands of worshippers. But your children -- don't you send them even to the primary school?"

He was against the education that is available in the schools, colleges and the universities. Why? -- because it creates doubt, it destroys people's faith; because it teaches people science and technology, which he was against: against things so simple and so essential that you will not be able to believe it -- that in the twentieth century a man can be against the telephone!

Now, the telephone does not do any harm to anybody. One can be against nuclear weapons, I can understand -- but the telephone?, railway lines?, trains?, airplanes? He was against anything except the spinning wheel -- that was the only technology that he accepted. Beyond that, all technology was evil, all science was evil; so why send your children to learn the devilish ways of science, technology, logic, philosophy, and destroy their faith, their belief in God? No. He would not send them.

His eldest son, Haridas, escaped. Seeing the situation -- "This man is going to destroy our lives completely" -- he escaped, reached a relative's family and told the whole story, what was happening, and that "I want to go to school." Just see the situation: the boy has to escape from the home to get into school. Boys escape from school, not to go there, and Haridas had to leave his home and ask some uncle, some faraway relative, "Please help me. At least I would like to be a matriculate; then I will see later on. But up to matriculation, that much education is absolutely necessary."

Gandhi was very angry. The prophet of nonviolence was angry, violently angry. What he said was, "Now this home is closed for Haridas. He should not be allowed in and nobody from my family should meet with him. Even his mother, his brothers, his sisters -- nobody should see him and meet him. If anybody meets with him, he also goes with him. He has failed me." You impose such stupid ideas, Now, what Haridas was doing was perfectly right. This man had to be disobeyed. The other children did not escape; they were weaklings. Haridas had some guts. And he showed later on that he did have some guts.
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 1:25pm On Jan 20, 2011

Gandhi used to say, "All religions are one." That was also a political gimmick: "All religions are one -- Hindu, Mohammedan, Christian, Jaina, Buddhist, Sikh,  all religions are one." But the basic politics was to capture all these people and their votes, and to keep the whole of India undivided, so that Gandhi's party ruled over the whole of India, not only a part of India.

In his prayer meetings every morning the Koran was recited, The Bible was read, and other holy books were also included. Just a few pieces read from The Bible, a few pieces read from the Torah, a few pieces read from the Koran,  And there too was great cunningness, because I have looked into those pieces that were read: they were the pieces which were synonymous with the Gita. Only those pieces were chosen from The Bible that were synonymous with Krishna, because Gandhi used to call the Gita his mother. He never called the Koran "my father" or The Bible "my uncle" at least,  only the Gita his mother. And all these fragments that he had chosen were deceptive. They were simply translations, as if they were the same message so there was no problem. All that was against the Gita -- or different from the Gita, not even against it -- was not chosen.

So he was deceiving Mohammedans, he was deceiving Christians, he was deceiving Jainas, he was deceiving Buddhists, he was deceiving Sikhs, everybody. And they all thought that this man is a super-sage -- that is the meaning of mahatma: the great soul. As if souls are also small or great! Souls are simply souls, neither small nor great. But the great soul, mahatma, because he was so liberal, unprejudiced,  and he was full of prejudice.

Haridas knew it. So what he did was, he converted himself to Mohammedanism. He did well. I appreciate him. The doors of the home were closed. Gandhi had abandoned him, declared, "He is no longer my son. I am no longer his father. He has utterly failed me. If he had died it would have been better." And what sin had he committed? He had gone to school! But he was really an intelligent boy. As he left the school, he turned to Mohammedanism. And Mohammedans rejoiced. They enjoyed the idea that Gandhi's eldest son found shelter in Mohammedanism. They started calling him "Mahatma Abdullah Gandhi."

They kept 'Mahatma' and 'Gandhi' so people remembered who he was, and changed 'Haridas' into 'Abdullah' -- which means literally 'Haridas'. abd'allah -- servant of God, and that is exactly the meaning of haridas: servant of God. It is the Arabic translation of Haridas, so it was exactly the same.

But Gandhi was so shocked! You can imagine, if just his son's going to school was enough for Gandhi to abandon him as a son, now he has become a Mohammedan! Gandhi wept. Now, this is the man who says all the religions are the same. So what is the difference? Whether he is Hindu or Mohammedan -- what difference does it make? And even his name was nothing but an Arabic translation of the Sanskrit name -- an exact translation.

Just by coincidence, there was a meeting in Bombay. Just by coincidence, Gandhi was going into the same train from which Haridas was getting out. Kasturba, after all, was a mother; she wanted at least to have a look at her son. She knew that her husband wouldn't allow them to talk, but Gandhi didn't allow her even to see him. He said, "Remember, don't look at him. He is dead for us. He has slapped me on my face by becoming a Mohammedan." He forgot all that synthesis of all the religions,  and still the prayer continued the same way every day.


Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 1:29pm On Jan 20, 2011
For those who have patience to read more from other perspectives:

http://history.eserver.org/ghandi-nobody-knows.txt
The Gandhi Nobody Knows - by Richard Grenier

[From the magazine, "Commentary," March 1983, published monthly by the American Jewish Committee, New York, NY.]
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by DeepSight(m): 2:05pm On Jan 20, 2011
Thank you. There is much that you have written which may readily appear evil especially as delivered in he words of a conspiracy theorist. I can assure you that such writings exist regarding even the best amongst us: Mandela, Martin Luther, Theresa, the Dalai Lama, . . .the list is endless.

The fact is that human beings are fallible.

Now even in terms of things that are stern and disciplined, and in which many virtues actually reside for the disciplined mind, it is easy for a man such as yourself to discern a resident evil: whereas it needn't necessarily be so in point of fact and reality.

I need to urge you to understand that the very best of us: being only human - will still have a catalougue of frailties, failures and negative proclivities. When a human being excels and thus becomes an icon of good: it is never because he is entirely good: but because the principal ideas he stood for were a driving force towards the greater good.

Having that in mind, it seems to me rather petty to select such outstanding human beings and begin to carve into their failings in a bid to discredit them. The fact is that what they stood for can never be discredited - and it altogether reduces the persona of the person so attempting to reduce such legacies: as though such a person is bitterly envious of the esteemed heights to which such humans rose.

Believe me: it is possible for you to dig up a catalogue of evil regarding Nelson Mandela and Aung San Su Kyi. In so doing however, you will never destroy their legacies however hard you try. Because they are only human and nobody in the first instance presumed them to be perfect. Howveer they courageously devoted their lives to causes that you, Dulcet, may not sacrifice as much for.

If you Dulcet, begin to smear the life-work of such a man, I will have to ask you what your contributions to the cauyse of humanity have been: that you dare use the fact of human imperfection to denigrate the leading moral lights of the world.

1 Like

Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 2:46pm On Jan 20, 2011
Hi there, Deep Sight. Thanks for your response, sir.

In fact, in my rather young life I have done nothing compared with great people like Mother Theresa, Adolf Hitler, Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Aung San Su Kyi, the Dalai Lama, or Martin Luther, or even Christ or Krishna or Buddha (if they existed as human beings). I respect all of these people beyond their frailty ~ if they had any.

Further, it is for hagiographic statements ~ like this one below ~ that I created this thread.
chukwudi44:

Mother theresa whether you like it or not remains the greatest christian of the last 100 yeras
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by JeSoul(f): 3:34pm On Jan 20, 2011
Dulcet, thank you for all these links and articles. Rest assured, at least one person is making good use of them.

tensor777:

You are into left-wing politics Jesoul even though you claim to be a born-again Christian. How does that one work. As for the nun Theresa what 's your business with her?
Plough your own furrow.
Hmm, dear Tensor, you must have me confused with another jesoul smiley. I do spend a ton of time in the Foreign Affairs section (discussing mostly American politics) and my friends there know me quite well for my unrepentant conservatism on most issues. I may support the occasional liberal viewpoint but overall, I'm an independent, with conservative ("right-wing"wink leanings. So I'm not sure where you're getting your information from because it is very wrong.

Furthermore and more importantly, who says that being "left-wing" is somehow incompatible with being a christian?    Please enlighten me - on another thread though. I don't want to contribute to any diversions away from the subject of this thread. Thanks.
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by noetic16(m): 5:03pm On Jan 20, 2011
^^^ happy new year madam cheesy

why is mudley seriously seeking your attention? what af u done to him?
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 5:27pm On Jan 20, 2011

Dulcet, thank you for all these links and articles. Rest assured, at least one person is making good use of them.

Thanks for the encouragement, Madam. It's been a little while. Hope you are fine? And work/career/school and family? May God's grace abound towards you.

Hello noetic16. I like that name smiley
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by JeSoul(f): 5:35pm On Jan 20, 2011
noetic16:

^^^ happy new year madam cheesy

why is mudley seriously seeking your attention? what af u done to him?
Happy New 2011 oh my dear. You just vanish take sabbatical no tell any of us. I hope you have been well smiley

No mind the guy jare. I asked Muki to ban him, Muki decided to make it permanent cos that was at least his 4th ban. Shikena. Dats it smiley. With the way he was going, one would think I stole his lunch money or girlfriend  grin no wahala sha. My people know me in here. I'll take a 99% approval rate lol.

Dulcet7:

Thanks for the encouragement, Madam. It's been a little while. Hope you are fine? And work/career/school and family? May God's grace abound towards you.
Amen oh, thank you my brother, all is well here by God's special grace.
Also I forgot to say thank you for your reply on the Assurance thread. I respected your wish to gracefully bow out, but I really really appreciate the effort and time you spent answering my questions. Be blessed sir and all that you put your hands to do.

Hello noetic16. I like that name smiley
Haha . . . Noetic, should I tell Dulcet you were originally just Noetic?  grin and worked your way thru bans/usernames 1 - 15?  grin
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(m): 5:51pm On Jan 20, 2011
^^^ You're welcome. noetic16 got banned banned sixteeeen times? That's really funny. He doesn't sound like a troublemaker like our other friend. For me I wasn't banned from Dulcet till Dulcet6! Dulcet was used when I tried registering so I added my fav number smiley
Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by JeSoul(f): 5:55pm On Jan 20, 2011
^Lol. Duly noted Dulcet[b]7[/b] grin

Noetic isn't a troublemaker at all. He's just very very passionate in the negative about Islam and made sure to let our muslim friends in their section know all about it. Lol.

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