OAM4J:

OK since you wanna continue with this your Nazi-Jew thingy.

How does this story affect/correlate to homosexuality? Are you afraid that the heterosexuals will gather all you gays together and kill you, same way Hitler killed the Jews?

Dont worry, that is not our intension, the plan is to get all homos to leave Africa, so that they will not start 'oppressing' us under the guise of gay rights. Simple!

well, the Ugandan government did propose a bill to jail and kill gays. that was what david kato was fighting against
your last statement makes the similarity even stronger. because jews were rounded up and  deported to secluded ghettos at first and later to concentration camps.

i'm not gay by the way. but I believe in equality. I don't think i deserve more rights than gays just by virtue of my sexual orientation.

Jenifa_:

you only condemn murder.
jail terms, harassment, excessive discrimination, systematic oppression etc are ok by you?

Within the context of the original argument on this thread, I'll prefer to limit myself to condemning murder, I'm not invested in the argument about gay or no gay for now.

I'm more interested in methods and tactics. It's easy to argue about morality (subjective and objective) till we get blue in the face, all based on our beliefs about right or wrong. The difficult job IMO comes when we need to formulate coherent public policies that will work for both sides on a social level.

I'm interested in how we can do that.

I do not support oppression and harassment BTW.

Kilode?!:

Within the context of the original argument on this thread, I'll prefer to limit myself to condemning murder, I'm not invested in the argument about gay or no gay for now.

I'm more interested in methods and tactics. It's easy to argue about morality (subjective and objective) till we get blue in the face, all based on our beliefs about right or wrong. The difficult job IMO comes when we need to formulate coherent public policies that will work for both sides on a social level.

I'm interested in how we can do that.

I do not support oppression and harassment BTW.

condemning murder is also subjective and about morality.
i'm glad you do not support oppression and harassment.

Jenifa_ is pretty good.

Jenifa_:

I think you misinterpret my post. I mean that I understand your way of thinking. ex. I got these points from your comment:
1. you assume yourself to be a genius
2. you think only geniuses should have a right to vote. hence you are superior (i.e make better decisions)
3. basically, all men are not created equal/ some are inherently superior to others

your argument to me then stem not from a belief in majority rule but from your ideas of superiority.

let me ask you two questions: do you agree with these ideas below and why or why not?
  We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Rights_of_Man_and_of_the_Citizen

not that it doesn't say "majority men." it says "ALL men"
and the same declaration has been used to fight for suffrage and rights for women, blacks and other minority or vulnerable population in the US
It was the basis for the French revolution as well.

so it's not about accepting homosexuality as a decent way of life. or accepting morons as your equal (in terms of skill etc) or even accepting islam or hinduism as a decent religion. or accepting albinos or jews as decent human beings.or accepting women as having equal level of intelligence.
it's more about accepting them as human beings with the same alienable rights all people have in common.

No, you got me TOTALLY wrong. Part of what I wrote there if you read it well, partly support your claim that majority can be wrong, cos right or wrong, fair and unfair are mostly determined base on the interests and beliefs of majority, and I gave an example of Sharia to mostly Islamic people. Then I asked the question "Who then determines what is wrong or right?" It was in that light I think it makes sense if those who determine wrong and rights are intelligent people who look at issues objectively out merits rather than out sentiments or popularity.

Hope you understand my point.

Jenifa_:

well, the Ugandan government did propose a bill to jail and kill gays. that was what david kato was killed over.
your last statement makes the similarity even stronger. because jews were deported to concentration camps.

i'm not gay by the way. but I believe in equality. I don't think i deserve more rights than gays just by virtue of my sexual orientation.

Even when the facts of the story is staring at you,you are still holding on to your conjectures. Well in case you dont know, he was killed by his exploited lover/partner.

And Uganda government was not proposing any law to kill any gay. Sending gays out Africa to the West is not same as Hitler sending Jews to concentration camps.

BTW, I dont believe you are not gay, only a video of you doing it properly or a weekend with me will convice me.

Jenifa_:

condemning murder is also subjective and about morality.
i'm glad you do not support oppression and harassment.

Exactly, that is the risk you take everyday you act as an human being, even your natural and moral right to breathe can be challenged.

IMO, The difficult job comes when we need to balance one party's moral right vs another and still maintain some sanity in the polity.

Kilode?!:

Exactly, that is the risk you take everyday you act as an human being, even your natural and moral right to breathe can be challenged.

IMO, The difficult job comes when we need to balance one party's moral right vs another and still maintain some sanity in the polity.

Very, Very difficult and complex. That is why I think it is better for people who share the same belief/morality and other things to stay together.

OAM4J:


Even when the facts of the story is staring at you,you are still holding on to your conjectures. Well in case you dont know, he was killed by his exploited lover/partner.

BTW, I dont believe you are not gay, only a video of you doing it properly or a weekend with me will convice me.

darn u're fast. i modified my post immediately after I posted it.
re-read that sentence.

No, you got me TOTALLY wrong. Part of what I wrote there if you read it well, partly support your claim that majority can be wrong, cos right or wrong, fair and unfair are mostly determined base on the interests and beliefs of majority, and I gave an example of Sharia to mostly Islamic people. Then I asked the question "Who then determines what is wrong or right?" It was in that light I think it makes sense if those who determine wrong and rights are intelligent people who look at issues objectively out merits rather than out sentiments or popularity.

Hope you understand my point.

well, I apologize if I misinterpreted your post then.
To answer your question, I don't agree with sharia at all. I already mentioned how it is set up so that women have harsher punishments than men in the first place. talkless of christians living in those societies. I myself am guilty of wondering why christians living up north don't leave the place.lol but I definitely will not support any killings or oppression.
I can only condemn laws or systems put in place to oppress a group but I'm not there and can't do anything about it. I also mentioned the point about passive vs active citizenry. that's one way minority groups can fight for their rights. today we look to ghandi or MLK as examples of civil rights leaders that mobilize people to fight for themselves.
I just feel saddened by all the homophobic slurs on here. you may not agree with homosexuality but why wish them death etc?

for the "intelligent people" argument,
values is a different matter. there is no objectivity to it and there can never be. you are looking at things in terms of black and white which is not the right way to look at things. ex. even the most illiterate or most racist farmer also needs his rights protected (i'm definitely not equating illiteracy with racism. pls don't misinterpret).Even my arguments on here may seem a bit exaggerated but it is to balance it against your own views and especially sagamite's which i think is really extreme.

I understand that laws are sometimes influenced by trends already occurring in society.
If I were a policy maker for example, I would work on how to build tolerance in the society first. because as far as i'm concerned, open homosexuality is here to stay. we might as well adapt to it before too many regrets in the future.
i'm sure you don't agree with that. lol but I do understand where you are coming from better now.

Jenifa_:

darn u're fast. i modified my post immediately after I posted it.
re-read that sentence.

OK.

well, I apologize if I misinterpreted your post then.
To answer your question, I don't agree with sharia at all. I already mentioned how it is set up so that women have harsher punishments than men in the first place. talkless of christians living in those societies. I myself am guilty of wondering why christians living up north don't leave the place.lol but I definitely will not support any killings or oppression.
I can only condemn laws or systems put in place to oppress a group but I'm not there and can't do anything about it. I also mentioned the point about passive vs active citizenry. that's one way minority groups can fight for their rights. today we look to ghandi or MLK as examples of civil rights leaders that mobilize people to fight for themselves.
I just feel saddened by all the homophobic slurs on here. you may not agree with homosexuality but why wish them death etc?

for the "intelligent people" argument,
values is a different matter. there is no objectivity to it and there can never be. you are looking at things in terms of black and white which is not the right way to look at things. ex. even the most illiterate or most racist farmer also needs his rights protected (i'm definitely not equating illiteracy with racism. pls don't misinterpret).Even my arguments on here may seem a bit exaggerated but it is to balance it against your own views and especially sagamite's which i think is really extreme.

I understand that laws are sometimes influenced by trends already occurring in society.
If I were a policy maker for example, I would work on how to build tolerance in the society first. because as far as i'm concerned, open homosexuality is here to stay. we might as well adapt to it before too many regrets in the future.
i'm sure you don't agree with that. lol but I do understand where you are coming from better now.

IMO, I dont think a lot (majority) of people in Africa wish them dead. We just dont accept their way of life as normal and we dont want to be forced to accept it as normal. We'll prefer them do it somewhere else out of Africa.

Even though we now agree on some points, I still dont believe that you are not gay. I gave you 2 options to convince me you are not, so make a choice.

OAM4J:

Very, Very difficult and complex. That is why I think it is better for people who share the same belief/morality and other things to stay together.

Ok. Very well then. I'll have to start giving more appreciation to those who dedicate their lives to formulating coherent public policies for us.

The philosophers, social scientists, social policy experts and sometimes lawyers who come up with largely acceptable rules and strategies to order our societies are heroes IMO.

Of all things to defend, its phaggots? smh. The world has followed America/Gomorrah/Sodom. Morality doesn't exist

It is really off the wall to compare a campaign upholding the rights to commit behavioural deviancy with civil rights issues. Again where is the link and what does society gain from promoting this abominable act of a man to insert his organ in another man's dung-hole .

Some brainwashed yanks here are even saying that they are minority rights issues as if that holds water in of itself.
As a matter of fact the civil rights campaign by Martin Luther King was not about American blacks agitating for any special status but simply for them to be accorded the same rights as other Americans. So in that sense you can point to the universal appeal of King's campaign. Nothing to do with upholding minority rights at all.

On the other hand this pro-faggott campaign is just about agitating for the rights of sexual deviants to engage in their destructive addictions. After all to give an example there is nothing in the law that prevents these deviants from marrying women and reproducing if they choose to.
So why on earth should these perverts be given rights and a dispensation to a civil marriage and to adopt children if they don't want to behave like sane human beings.

These perverts like to present themselves as victims and the moral arbiters of society, like the clergymen, as the bigots. But in fact it is these perverts that are damaging themselves and society by their own senseless behaviour.

Kilode?!:

Ok. Very well then. I'll have to start giving more appreciation to those who dedicate their lives to formulating coherent public policies for us.

The philosophers, social scientists, social policy experts and sometimes lawyers who come up with largely acceptable rules and strategies to order our societies are heroes IMO.

Hold on to your appreciation.

Most times they do not apply the "best pratice" of the thinking of their field, they compromise it with personal bias, seeking for political benefits and/or pragmatism because the populace is full of mooorons that will not comprehend logic/complexities and might react disorderly to optimal application if brainwashed/misled or the public policy setters themselves are not the brightest to give such responsibilities.

Kilode?!:

Ok. Very well then. I'll have to start giving more appreciation to those who dedicate their lives to formulating coherent public policies for us.

The philosophers, social scientists, social policy experts and sometimes lawyers who come up with largely acceptable rules and strategies to order our societies are heroes IMO.

That is a dangerously deluded argument and an example of how the pro-faggott lobby are challenging the moral fibre and fabric of society. These lawyers and politicians and social commentators are first of all human beings and so are bound to insert or be influenced by their own biases when formulating their public policy presciptions.
Any reason at all why these far out liberals in their ivory towers should be trusted apart from their sophistry??
See how some misguided posters here keep on banging on about ephemeral issues as upholding adult consent and minorty rights without looking at the bigger picture of societal costs and benefits.

Jenifa_:

for the "intelligent people" argument,
I understand that laws are sometimes influenced by trends already occurring in society.
If I were a policy maker for example, I would work on how to build tolerance in the society first. because as far as i'm concerned, open homosexuality is here to stay. we might as well adapt to it before too many regrets in the future.
i'm sure you don't agree with that. lol but I do understand where you are coming from better now.

Actually that stubborn mule-headed position is likely to be very very dangerous to faggotts in the long-run. There is nothing I repeat nothing in the  psyche of a right thinking man  that would predispose him to accept faggottry as acceptable so the more your camp keep pushing this issue the more they risk a very violent reaction against these deviants.
This idea of open faggottry is an insult to all right thinking humans and should be utterly decried and condemned.
The very idea that people in Africa and Asia should be brainwashed into tolerating these perverts is just off the wall.

tensor777:

Actually that stubborn mule-headed position is likely to be very very dangerous to faggotts in the long-run. There is nothing I repeat nothing in the  psyche of a right thinking man  that would predispose him to accept faggottry as acceptable so the more your camp keep pushing this issue the more they risk a very violent reaction against these deviants.
This idea of open faggottry is an insult to all right thinking humans and should be utterly decried and condemned.
The very idea that people in Africa and Asia should be brainwashed into tolerating these perverts is just off the wall.

QED or better still lynch them at any corner.

tensor777:

That is a dangerously deluded argument and an example of how the pro-faggott lobby are challenging the moral fibre and fabric of society. These lawyers and politicians and social commentators are first of all human beings and so are bound to insert or be influenced by their own biases when formulating their public policy presciptions.
Any reason at all why these far out liberals in their ivory towers should be trusted apart from their sophistry??
See how some misguided posters here keep on banging on about ephemeral issues as upholding adult consent and minorty rights without looking at the bigger picture of societal costs and benefits.

I'm not sure you read my posts at all.

Are philosophers, social policy experts, lawyers ALL LIBERALS?

What about their conservatives counterparts? or those who strongly hold an opposite view but still need to negotiate policy direction with the other side without blowing their society to smithereens.

It's cool to blow hot air online. When you have to sit across the table with those who disagree with you (and are as powerful and influential as you are) Then you will appreciate the difficult work of social give and take.

Sagamite:

Hold on to your appreciation.

Most times they do not apply the "best pratice" of the thinking of their field, they compromise it with personal bias, seeking for political benefits and/or pragmatism because the populace is full of mooorons that will not comprehend logic/complexities and might react disorderly to optimal application if brainwashed/misled or the public policy setters themselves are not the brightest to give such responsibilities.

Yes, they don't always apply best practice, but best practice ain't all that easy to arrive at on a social issue too, or any issue sef. na hard work.

. . .and of course both sides will bring personal bias to the policy formulation table, We all start from personal bias don't we?

But to solve a social problem, we can't possibly disembowel all the Moorons from the other side who can't see things from our perspective. 

Sagamite, you of all people should know mooorons don't die easily, very hard to kill mofos  

So I appreciate those who come up with policies that can bridge the thinking, moral and idea gap in society without leaving us all at the mercy of an all out knive fight.

Kilode?!:

Yes, they don't always apply best practice, but best practice ain't all that easy to arrive at on a social issue too, or any issue sef. na hard work.

. . .and of course both sides will bring personal bias to the policy formulation table, We all start from personal bias don't we?

True.

That is why I maintain geniocracy is the best.

Reetards like fstranger would not have a say in how society is administrated.

There would still be "self-interest" application issues to battle in geniocracy, but at least it would be over a smaller pool of people and people who their understnading of logic would have been assessed and hence easier to bring around, otherwise voted out.

Kilode?!:

But to solve a social problem, we can't possibly disembowel all the Moorons from the other side who can't see things from our perspective. 

Sagamite, you of all people should know mooorons don't die easily, very hard to kill mofos  

True.

Not only don't they die easily, we are not allowed to take them out easily because some halfwits will be talking about human rights. 

Kilode?!:

So I appreciate those who come up with policies that can bridge the thinking, moral and idea gap in society without leaving us all at the mercy of an all out knive fight.

I give them that.

That is why I respect the abilities of people like Kofi Annan, but I do not see them as super-intelligent.

^ Right, they may not be super-intelligent, but na hard thankless job most times.

As to your geniocracy Idea; You are one incurable social optimist walahi

hopefully you will not give us geniuses with over inflated egos. . . Kasala go burst for your decision table

I think as foolhardy as they are, moorons are more malleable than st-pid geniuses



Give me a smart eediot over a st-pid genius any day. — Samuel Goldwyn <<<< funny smart guy

Kilode?!:

I'm not sure you read my posts at all.
Are philosophers, social policy experts, lawyers ALL LIBERALS?
What about their conservatives counterparts? or those who strongly hold an opposite view but still need to negotiate policy direction with the other side without blowing their society to smithereens.
It's cool to blow hot air online. When you have to sit across the table with those who disagree with you (and are as powerful and influential as you are) Then you will appreciate the difficult work of social give and take.

Maybe they are not ALL liberals but you must be able to concede that most of these activists intereted in social re-engineering are liberals by the very nature of their activism.
So in essence these leftwing elements are able to band together and wield disproportonate influence in public policy formulation.

Sagamammoth, the fat public library philosopher:

You are a person!!!

You are what

You are a person!!!

Say: "Yes sir!!!"

Cretin!!!

You don't know the practice of Yan daudu is based on spiritual beliefs? It is like an occult based on tradition and done in a secretive way.

" These ‘yan daudu sell various foods at ceremonies, mainly luxury foods such as fried chicken, and serve as pimps for love-peddlers. Women who attend Hausa Bori rituals are deemed to be love-peddlers. Renée Pittin (1983) lists three activities for ‘yan daudu: procuring, cooking, and prostitution. She argues that there is a close tie between love-peddlers and ‘yan daudu. Moreover, in combining male and female roles, the ‘yan daudu mediate between men and women, occupying an ambiguous category. Living among the love-peddlers further provides a disguise for men seeking homosexual activity. Protection and discretion are provided through this arrangement. The Bori cult provides a niche for marginal people of all kinds, not simply women or homosexuals. Butchers, night-soil workers, musicians, and poor farmers are welcome there. Mentally disturbed people of all classes similarly seek refuge among the Bori devotees."

http://www.jmmsweb.org/issues/volume1/number1/pp45-54

People are superstitious, does not necessarily mean it is seen as ideal or accepted as normal. Does the fact some cultures in Southern Africa believe people can heal themselves by having se.x with a virgin child mean paedophilia is or should be accepted? Or the fact that people use humans for rituals based on superstition mean it is accpetable?

I’m dying of laughter here. How hard would it have been to think about your very own post? What is spiritual about gay men joining a mostly female possession cult and cooking and selling chicken and acting as pimps or love-peddlers? The yan dauda is distinct from the shamans of the yan bori. The yan dauda is not a spiritual role:


“Fremont Besmer (1983) discussed in greater detail a possession “cult” among the
(generally Islamic and urban) Hausa that is strikingly similar to New World possession
cults among those of West Africa descent, and is ”generally regarded as the displaced
religious tradition of the pre-Islamic Hausa.”.
32
As in Haitian voudou(n),
33
the
metaphor for those possessed by spirits is horses ridden” by the spirit. Homosexual
transvestites in the Hausa bori cult are called ‘Yan Daudu, son of Daudu. Daudu is a
praise name for any Galadima (a ranked title), but specifically refers to the bori spirit
Dan Galadima (literally, son of Galadima; the Prince),who is] said to be ” a handsome
young man, popular with women, a spendthrift, and a gambler” (Besmer 1983:30n4).
Joseph Greenberg (1941:56) noted that ”the group of Hausa spirits known as ‘Yan
Dawa, ‘children of the forest’ have their counterpart in the Dahomey aziza, the
Bambara (of Mali) kokolo,
34
and the Yoruba divinity Arnoi.” According to Besmer
(1983:18) ’Yan Daudu are not possessed by Dan Galadima, and are not possessed by
other spirits when he is present. Instead, they make and sell ”luxury snacks” -- i.e.,
more expensive, more prestigious food such as fried chicken,” (Pittin 1983:297).
35
‘Yan Daudu also operate as intermediaries between (female) love-peddlers and prospective
clients.
In his ethnography of Hausa possession religion, Fremont Besmer (1983:18) wrote:
”Women provide the bulk of membership for the cult and are stereotyped as
love-peddlers” (also see Smith 1954:64, Hill 1967:233). Pittin reported
The economic enterprises of the ‘Yan Daudu are centered on three related activities: procuring,
cooking, and prostitution. Procuring, the mobilisation of women for illicit sexual purposes,
clearly demands close ties between the procurer and the women. The ’dan daudu [sing.], in
his combination of male and female roles, can and does mediate between men and women in
this context. (1983:296)


Anyhow, when did I make the claim that toleration of gay behavior was based not on superstition or was based on rationality? More diversionary arguments.

Sagameasle: You are a person!!!

You are what

You are a person!!!

Say: "Yes sir!!!"

Cretin!!!

Whatever tolerance Africans have most likely was ritualistic, that was why I said it was cultural. They overlooked it mainly based on superstition, not accepted it as some form of social parity of being normal.

Hilarious. The very first example of tolerance I posted was not ritualistic but just their way of life. Anyways, read on and try not to sh1t yourself too hard:

“David Greenberg (1988:87) reported interviewing Eva Meyerowitz
about her observations among Ashanti and other Akan peoples in what was the British
Gold Coast colonybetween the 1920s and 1940s:
At that time men who dressed as women and engaged in homosexual relations with other men
were not stigmatized, but accepted. There were good reasons for Akan men to become women,
she commented -- the status of women among the matrilineal Akan was exceptionally high. The
situation may have changed later, she thought, as a result of missionary activity.
47
Hutchinson (1861:129-30) mentioned male slaves, who were treated as lovers, wore
pearl necklaces with gold pendants. They were killed when their Ashanti masters died.”



“In an earlier report on another Kongo people, the Bangala, Weeks (1909: 448-9)
reported that mutual self-service was common and that sodomy was“very common,
and is regarded with little or no shame. It generally takes place when men are visiting
strange towns or during the time they are fishing at camps away from their women.”
Herman Soyaux (1879, vol. 2:59) also attributed boy-love to the lengthy business trips
made by Bangala men, unaccompanied by their wives. As Karsch-Haack (1911) noted,
this explanation begs the question of why the Bangala travelers do not strike up
acquaintances with women as well as with boy, and inferred that although many
Mabara make good business profits from their marriages, their real passion is for boys.
Although pressing considerably beyond the circumscribed ethnographic record and eager
to find such alternative valuations, Karsch-Haack’s inference is not without plausibility.
From north of the Congo River, Karsch-Haack also elicited from Günther Tessman
the assertion that the Loanga were known to other groups as major poisoners and
pederasts. Tessman had observed male favorites being free of burdens when even the
chief carried loads.”

“As mentioned earlier (Driberg 1923:210) passed on Lango assertions that
homosexual conduct was very common among neighboring groups, specifically the Iteso
and Karamojan. Similarly, further south (in southwestern Uganda) Mushanga
(1973:181) reported that Nkole informants told him that the Bahima (but not any
Nkole) practice homosexuality.
In the old kingdom of Rwanda, Maquet (1961: 77- reported that male homosexuality
was common among Hutu and Tutsi youth, especially among young Tutsi
being trained at court, i.e., they were made sexually available to guests at court. Johnson
(1986:29) wrote
Mutabaruka, a 19-year-old [Tutsi] college student told me that, traditionally, in his tribe there
was an extended period during which boys lived apart from the rest of the village while they are
training to be warriors, during which very emotional, and often sexual, relationships were struck
up,  “Sometimes these relationships lasted beyond adolescence into adulthood,” he told me.
Watusi still have a reputation for bisexuality in the cities of East Africa.”

Sagachimp:
You are a person!!!

You are what

You are a person!!!

Say: "Yes sir!!!"

Cretin!!!

If you do not have an idea of governments work, shut up!

What you see in public is not the ALL. There will be alot of activities and phone calls behind the scene. Mooooron!!! Haven't you been reading some of the wikileaks?

Dumbo, you think it is everything that is done in diplomatic circles that is revealed? Was it what the Palestinian negotiators were actually negotiating with Isreal that was disclosed in public statements? You think all the details of corruption they have against the likes of Atiku, Odili etc will not be used against them to ensure the West get what they want from time to time? Reeetard!

ROFL. Israel (Isreal? Why do so many people think it's spelled Isreal? Dyslexic?), Palestine, Wikileaks, Peter Odili, etc, have come into the picture now!

The tin foil hats are on and functioning I see! Who said anything about Western diplomats never holding private meetings with African leaders? I said the tripe about Western governments stopping criminalization of homosexual activities during clandestine meetings is laughable when there is so much open pressure and open condemnation (such as that which tilted Uganda toward dropping their death penalty clause) and I mocked the idea of an unseen gay cabal/gay mafia  being mainly responsible for trying to foist toleration of gayness down Africans' throats!

But now it's Western diplomats trying to force tolerance down African leaders throats during private meetings!  Nice one there Sagaminstrel. Get it through your head that there is so much open Western pressure (such as the E.U. bill to cut aid to Uganda) and condemnation on African countries to desist from further anti-gay laws when they try to pass them that asserting that clandestine, secret meetings are actually responsible  for stopping criminalization of various homosexual activities remains a laughable  tin foil hat conspiracy from a brainless  London sewer rat, 

I bet Sagamacaque will  now state that during all these secret meetings between pro-gay U.S., E.U., etc. diplomats and Ugandan politicians to stop the bill making people of the same sex who get married liable to receive the death penalty in Uganda, the Western diplomats would somehow go there only to argue that the death penalty should be removed from the bill, but not “clandestinely stop” the modified bill which gave life in jail for same sex marriage, which is still on the table and could be passed any day and not get the country to overturn the jail terms for non-marriage homosexual activity. So much for secret pro-gay diplomats storming Africa and stopping anti-homosexuality laws.


Sagamite, preventing the gay terrorists from invading his brain with pro-gay radio waves.

You are a moooron! What is primitive about intellectual bashing?”

Sagamite, your whole approach is neanderthal-like.  You give the impression of a caveman pounding  on his keyboard in fury in every discussion.  Tone it down, and discuss issues in a more civil fashion and you won't earn so much contempt from others.

haba, the argument hasn't died yet?  Remember I said it would go up to 40 pages, the thread is almost there already. 

Some of you can argue, damn! why did most of you not take law in school, I damn sure know y'all brief would be lengthy, Anyway, I'm starting out my own; my 1,000 page argument in support of gay rights and freedom. I would need people to enjoin on my brief.

As for fsratnger1, what was wrong with that one? I hope they banned him already.

daamerican:
Wow, I can't believe what I'm seeing. There is more hate on this website than stormfront (which is the white nationalist web site) Tisk, Tisk Nigeria.

Bet you would know all about that, given your hateful tendencies.

manny4life:


As for fsratnger1, what was wrong with that one? I hope they banned him already.

I'm really glad people are starting to take notice.

Stormfront is a surprisingly entertaining site to go to

I don't even get mad at the stuff I read there, it just cracks me up.

Mhd, you know nothing about me. Really you don't even know my skin colour.
But can you not honestly see why People are fed up with Africa?
In Nigeria are guys are literally sitting on the resources you need to sustain power yet you go with out power for weeks sometimes. Look at the entire GDP of Africa and compare it to one country in Europe, it's sickening the difference. Only 40% of AU funding comes from Africa, your own organization, American and Europe pick up the rest of the tab. Sure you're doing a shi t ton of trade with China and Russia but don't you think it's time for a world class city to rise in Africa? Lagos could be that city yet you can't even get a simple subway built. You could truly be so much more if you didn't let the west run all over you.

And I don't post on Stormfront

Dear Nairalanders,

Lets me contribute my two cents to this discussion. I hope you guys keep an open mind and respond politely if you wish. The issue of homosexuality is a complex yet it is not supposed to be so complex. Like they say, you cannot understand another man's situation if you have not walked in his shoes. And if you are heterosexual, you can never understand the struggles and experiences of a homosexual person. I just hope that you will try to put yourself in those shoes for a minute while you read this. The most important thing I want you to do is to keep an open mind and not equate homosexuality with just a sexual act. Afterall, when you think of heterosexuality, you dont think of sex. You think feelings, love, the need for human companionship and maybe sex down the line. But sex is not the building block. In the same vein, a 15 year -old boy may discover that he only has same sex feelings but he never actually engages in same sex activity all his life as he enters the priesthood. That doesnt make him any less gay. He was gay at 15 and he will be gay all his life. that he never engages in the a sexual act doesnt change who you are attracted to. Or do you think priests and reverend sisters and 12 year old kids are asexual? Ofcourse not. You may not be engaged in sex, but it doesnt mean you do not have a sexual orientation. Its either gay or straight. So please lets disentangle this discourse from sexual intercourse. Its about who you are drawn to emotionally, physically and spiritually.

First and foremost, I believe the cardinal bone of contention here is that most people find it had to believe that people are born gay. The real question is, Are people born heterosexual? If you believe that you were born heterosexual then do you think it is possible that some people were born gay? I want to assume that if you are straight that there was never a point in your life when you were attracted to both males and females; after which you then decided to choose the opposite sex. Did you ever get to make that conscious choice? I doubt it. Then why do you think that a gay person was given that choice by God? Why would anybody ever choose to be attracted to the same sex when he knows the price that he will pay in society? The risks are numerous- your family will disown you in a heartbeat, all your friends will abandon you and any hope for a real fulfilling future is gone; all because for no reason, you hit puberty and you discover that you are different.

If you are straight, you may not understand this. But I assume that if you are a guy that around the age of 11-12, you started becoming interested in girls. That is normal at puberty. Imagine if at that age you find yourself with no attraction whatsoever to the opposite sex, but only to your own sex. That is the reality of a gay person. You try to fight it. You try to go to all the church deliverances and say all the prayers and promise God everything if only he will just take it away- If only he will just make you normal. Believe me, that is the only prayer of gay people. You try hard to keep the secret and you also are afraid that if anybody finds out the secret, that you may be mobbed in a heartbeat. It is hard enough for a heterosexual teenage boy to stay focused in school and stuff because hormones are raging and you want to chyke guys and all. Imagine how much harder it is for gay people when you know that what you have is what Oscar Wilde called 'the love that dare not speak its name'. You can't tell anyone about it. You just live with your secret into your twenties. Some are bold enough to carry on with secret relationships with their peers just like their heterosexual mates are doing. Others torture themselves everyday because they cannot reconcile what they feel inside with what their religion and society has told them that they should feel. Its no wonder that the rates of teenage depression, suicide and all is so high. In the US, teenage suicide among gay teens is 7 times what it is in heterosexual teens- This means that for every 100 suicides among teenagers, more than 80 of these will be gay teens - usually those struggling to come to terms with their sexuality or experiencing rejection or discrimination from their friends and families. Do you think 14, 15 year old teenagers will want to kill themselves over something they could change? Think again. Do you know the kind of emotional turmoil that a gay person must be in to think that the best solution is to take your life and just escape this earth and its hardship? I'm sure you cant begin to imagine this. But like I said, try and walk in the homosexuals shoes for a minute because unless you can do this you will never understand his life experiences.

But then, you are a human being- with hormones and real feelings. Just like a 15 or 16 year old boy would see a girl in his class and like to 'toast' her, there also gay people who are surrounded by people that they are attracted to- but who they dont want to be attracted to. Its simple biology. Every human being has the capacity to love and be loved. But people do not control the sex they are attracted to. If you are straight and think it is a choice, I bet that If I offer you a billion dollars to turn gay, that you will not be able to. And by turning gay i mean that you will be genuinely attracted emotionally, psychologically, spiritually and then physically to someone of your same sex. Believe me, you cannot do it. Why? Because you were not born that way. It is the same way for people who are gay. They have tried and tried and begged God and done everything but it doesnt go away. Most importantly, most gay people do not have the natural attraction to the opposite sex - so what should they do? They just cannot connect emotionally, spiritually and physically to the opposite sex as they can to their own sex. Its plain and simple. It would be easier for some if they had a natural capacity to like both sexes- truly Bisexual people have that capacity and so they can swing both ways naturally. But for most gay people, they are forced by societal and religious pressure to go into heterosexual relationships that they are not naturaly equipped to go into.

In Nigeria, we dont even acknowledge the existence of homosexuality and so I'm sure that we may have no statistics on the magnitude of this issue. If we are to go by what the researchers say, 2-5 % of every population is gay. Every population means every population and not just Western population like we want to believe. In other accounts, this proportion is closer to 10%. This will mean that close to 15 million Nigerian are most likely gay. Gay people seem to be non-existent because in truth, heterosexuals are about 80-90% of people and they will always be the majority. Its just the way nature works. As the most populous black nation on earth, it also means that we have the highest concentration of black gay people on this earth. I am not saying this to alarm you, but it is just a reality of life and nature that will shock you probably because you may think that you dont know too many gay people personally. But then, who in his right sense will tell another person in Nigeria that he is gay. People just carry on with their secret affairs and pretend that everything is ok. We are a nation that is notorious for hidding things under the basket.

Most gay people go ahead and get married. For most of them, they may like and even learn to LOVE their spouses, but they will never be IN LOVE with their spouses because they can never connect on that level with them. And I believe that every one deserves to be with someone that is truly IN LOVE with them and not someone that is using them as a cover for the busy-body Nigerian society that will begin to wonder why this middle-aged Nigerian man is not married. If you are woman, you want a man that loves you completely and you will be utterly heartbroken to find out that your husband is gay and is having affairs with men outside. Yes, with men. A married gay man will not have affairs with women, it is with men- because it is men that he is truly attracted to and their is nothing that his 'poor' wife can do to change his biology or to give him emotional and yes- sexual, satisfaction. And believe me sexual satisfaction is a big part of every relationship- gay or straight. Most importantly, his poor wife will not be genuinely loved and may not have a fulfilling sex life because the man is not genuinely attracted to her. So we have an innocent woman who is trapped in a loveless marriage with a man who may contract an STD anytime if he is not careful. This is what they call the 'Down low syndrome' among African American communities- gay men who are forced to live straight live and have wives and girlfriends. Believe me, this scenario I just recounted is living and thriving in our own Naija as it is in all parts of the world. In more open cities like Lagos, there is a thriving gay prostitution scene where 'respectable' men go to satisfy their passions. Some men, enter into long term relationships with their 'buddies' while still keeping their wives. Secrets, Secrets and Lies everywhere. I'll use the handedness analogy for this issue because it is very appropriate. About 10% of people are born left-handed while 90% are born right-handed. Its an in-born thing which in times past was seen as an abomination. There were times when left-handed people were persecuted and killed (you can do your research on this). In Nigeria now, left-handed kids still have it tough. Most parents try to change their kids and most parent succeed in making them learn to use their right hands. Still, those kids never truly lose the function of their left hands. They just learn to become ambidextrous and they learn to write and eat and take stuff from their elders with their right hands. But after all said and done, they are all still most comfortable with the left and always resort to it when no one is looking or when they are all grown up. For a small percentage, they will never learn to use their right hands and they are the ones whom their parents will always flog. Still, they never are able to learn it. Its just their nature. It is that way with gay people. You may force yourself out of societal pressure to be with the opposite sex but you never truly loose your attraction for your own sex. Most times, this leads to cheating in marriages. For the small percentage of gay men and women who cannot even fake an attaction to the opposite sex, there are like the perpetual left-handers- unable to conform to society's expectation, not out of their own stubbornness but because of how God created them

Who do we blame for this kind of double life? It is easy to blame the gay man or woman, but then we should ask ourselves- what role do we play in cultivating this kind of double life? Isnt society to blame for being so hostile to the idea of homosexuality that people are forced to live in the closet and deny an essential part of themselves? I'll tell you this, if you know anybody that is openly gay in Nigeria and has chosen not to marry but to be honest with themselves, you should go up to them and give them a handshake. Because they have defied all the pressure from religion and society to do the honorable thing and live life with dignity instead of deceiving an innocent person into marriage. They are the ones that have chosen to obey their consciences and be honest. Most importantly, for that gay married person, can you imagine how unhappy his life is. Knowing that you have to lie everyday and that you cannot truly be yourself or be with someone you may truly love because of society. Its a hopeless situation and thing can only begin to get better when people realise that the gay person cannot change to a heterosexual anymore than the heterosexual can turn gay. People are just made that way by God for his own reasons and it does not go away anymore than a heterosexual person suddenly stops being heterosexual. Once we learn this truth, we can begin to accept people for what they are and then they may feel comfortable living honest lives. But we cannot expect people to acknowledge their homosexuality when we as a society will want to treat them as second class citizens.

As a gay Christians will tell you, they have made peace with themselves and they know that God loves them the way they are. They do not consider a same-sex loving couple in a monogamous relationship to be a sin and I dont either. By this relationship, I mean 2 people of the same sex who are comlpletely devoted to each other and have chosen to build a life together. In some countries in the West and even in South Africa, they are legally married and some of them have biological or adopted kids and are as normal as every family. The only difference is that both partners are of the same sex. And please get your head out of the gutter and dont think about what they do in bed or how they do it in bed because it is not anybody's business what happens in the confines on one's bed chambers. This may seem silly to some of you but I ask you to read on. First and foremost, I want you to use you brain because God gave it to to you for a reason - to think independently and make up your mind on issues. Ignore whatever you have been told that the Bible said and look for God's answers on your own. Now, there is a school of thought that says that Biblical interpretation should be taken literally- that is, just exactly the way it is written in the Bible, while there is a second school of thought that says that you should look at everything said in the Bible in the context of the times in which it was written. i belong to the second school of thought.

Let me begin by saying that we all know that people say that the Bible is the 'word' of God. I agree that the Bible was inspired by God; but it was not written by God. It was written by inspired men who wrote in their own 'words' and not God's exact 'words'. This men wrote within their own socio-cultural context and this is abundant when we consider the things in the bible that we ignore today because it doesnt make sense in our time. The literalist will always throw the passages in Leviticus that say that a man must not lie with another man because it is an abomination. However, the literalist also tries to forget verses in that same Leviticus that say that if a woman is not a virgin on her wedding night, that she should be taken back to her father's house and stoned to death; and that a disobedient child should also be stoned to death. This same Leviticus said that it was an abomination to mix two types of fabrics together. It also calls it an abomination to eat shellfish. And the list goes on and on, It called all these things an abomination. Yet today, we all eat shellfish, we all wear ankara and brocade in the same cloth and we all eat shellfish. Most girls are not virgins when they get married and their husbands do not return then to their fathers and stone them to death. Why then do we persist in
hurling these passages at gay people. These portions of the bible make it clear that the people that wrote it did so in line with their own cultural practices thousands of years ago. In this age and time, some of those passage will be seen as sexist and child abuse.

Now, we know that the Bible was not written in English. Infact the Bible as we know it was not compiled in its original language until hundreds of years after the death of Christ when the Church decided to put together a Holy Book based on religious writings. Of course by then there were so any writings. These writing were mostly stories handed down by word of mouth and passages by the early Christians to successive generations. By around 400 years after the death of Christ when the Vulgate bible was compiled, there were a lot of books written and it was up to a select committee of men to choose and decide which books will make it into what we now know as the Bible. Out of thousands of books, they choose the 66 books that we now know as the Bible. Or do you think that it was only Matthew, Mark, luke and John that told stories about Jesus and had it written into books? There were many other Gospels. There is the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Barnabas,Gospel of Truth, Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Mary and the list goes on. Why werent these ones selected? The point I am trying to make is that the assembling of the Bible as we know it was done by human beings like you and me with their own guiding philosophies and interests and so it makes no sense when someone assumes a literalist stance and says that the Bible provides the answer to everything that is God's will.

Now we know that the bible is full of passages that make it clear that the place of a woman in society is akin to that of a man's property. She is to be seen and not to be heard. A man could marry plenty wives in the Bible and nothing was wrong with that- Moses was married to Sarah and still sired a child through her maid, Solomon had hundreds of wives. This was normal in their time, but in this age and time, we do not subscribe to those beliefs because we whether we like it or not, we agree that the bible is context specific and that those things that were acceptable in that culture do not apply now. Just look at the high rate of divorces everywhere and you will agree that we are not following the bible to the letter. Now it stands to reason that if women were invited to the table when the final 66 books of the Bible were being out together, that there will have been some protest against some books that expressly permit discrimination against women. For example, we have a place in the new testament that says that women should not speak in a place of worship and should instead sit and listen. Up till date, some churches still use that to ban the adoption of women into the clergy. But tell me, do you think that a woman who is spirit-filled is any less an instrument of God than a man? There are numerous instance where the Bible has been used to denigrate a particular group- whether women, slaves or homosexuals. But i bet that if people fro any of these groups were present during the final compilation of the Bible, that the parts of the Bible that harm them will not have made it into the final draft. My point- the Bible is a book inspired by God but written by man and put together by man to reflect his peculiar leaning. My point- Learn to look at things for yourself and question a bit- Because as someone said, it is only by questioning your faith that you van find a deeper faith.


We know from the translation of the Bible over two thousand years that it has been through many languages. The original languages in which it was first transcribed are mostly non-existent now. And we also know that the 'homosexuality' did not appear in the English bible until about 1949. Before then, most translations referred to some of the verses as male prostitution and co. It is no surprise that homosexuality as we know it today- a loving relationship between people of the same sex, was not written of in the bible because the Biblical writers did not have any concept of sexuality or same-gender loving relationships like we have today. How can the bible then condemn homosexuality when the word didnt make it way in there until about 2,000 years later. it is in the same way that we dont expect the Bible to give us answers to issues like Nuclear energy or assisted reproduction techniques or Information technology because in the biblical times, they had no concept of this.

To be sure, the bible condemned male prostitution- just as it did for female prostitution. And it is this word that many biblical scholars feel have been mutated over time to no become homosexuality in the bible. But then, how does male prostitution equate with a present-day same gender-loving relationship like we know it to be today where you have partners that are committed to themselves physically and emotionally just as heterosexuals are?

And to be sue too, Paul condemns people who have given up their 'natural' desires to pursue the same sex. The only thing is that for the homosexual, what is 'natural' is attraction to the same sex. Being with an opposite sex partner to the gay person is as unnatural as forcing a heterosexual to sleep with someone of the same sex. The level of revulsion is the same. The only difference is that society forces the homosexual to effectively 'rape' himself/herself, go against his nature and do it. It is not a surprise that Paul felt that people were giving up their natural desires. Afterall, the concept of sexuality as we know it today was not their in his time. And so I'm sure that he assumed that it was only the kind of desires he had that were the 'natural' ones. In that way, he is no different than you the reader or most heterosexuals who always wonder what the f*** is wrong with gay people? Why would they give up what you have and that which you assume is natural to most people- heterosexuality, to pursue homosexuality? The answer boils down to what I have said earlier- if you have not lived in a gay person's body and gone through what he has gone through- the hormones, the exclusive same-sex feelings, the utter absence of opposite-sex attraction throughout life, then who are you to tell him that his feelings are not 'natural'? It is just like telling a left-handed child that his 'bad' habit is not natural and that he should stop it. This a very telling analogy because almost all gay people who speak truthfully say that they have always known that they were different. Some know as early as 7-8 years in life. They might not have the word for it at that age and they certainly are not engaging in any sexual activity at that age, but they do know that the way they feel about people of their own sex is not quite 'normal'. So to base the condemnation of homosexuality on what St. Paul has said would be not to use our God-given intelligence to think for ourselves. if God created some people homosexual, then how can we say that their desires are unnatural?

Some people try to say that homosexuality is mostly environmental and that people who may have been abused sexually or had absent parental figures are the ones at risk. This is utter garbage. Did you become heterosexual because you were abused by an opposite sex uncle or aunt? Did the environment really have anything to do with your sexuality or did you just hit puberty and found it there? Afterall, almost every homosexual was raised in an home by a mother and a father and if environmental influences are the strongest, then the child should have learnt from his parent's example and also become heterosexual. Infact, I dont believe there is any gay family in Nigeria, why then do we still have homosexuals in our society? This brings me to the issue of the arguement against gay parenting. People say that if homosexuality and hay marriage and parenting becomes allowed, that children will be turned gay in those families. How so? Parents have no influence on the sexual orientation of their children and gay parents are not any more likely to raise gay kids than straight parents. Afterall, most of the gay parents were raised by straight parents and they still turned out gay! Go figure!

The most common Biblical portion used against homosexuality is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. The popular assumption is that the city was destroyed solely because of homosexuality. This cannot be further away from the truth. God saw the iniquities of Sodom- their greed, lust, wickedness and all. Sodom was a very rich city but they had given themselves unto wickedness. Because of their wealth and wickedness, there were notoriously territorial and did not let people into their city lest they try to tap into the source of their wealth. God saw all this and wanted to destroy them but he instead decided to send his angels to see for themselves. Keep in mind that ab initio, God wanted to destroy them- which was why he told Abraham later in the Bible that if he had seen even just ten righteous men in all the city of Sodom, that he would have spared the city. Back to the story. So the angels were welcomed to Lots house but as soon as the men of the city heard that they had visitors in the city, they demanded that they be brought out to them. It was there in-hospitality and wickedness that made them demand that the angels be brought out to them so that they could 'know' them. This means to forcibly rape them. S we have a mob of maybe hundreds of men who men who want to gang rape three angels. Why? It wasn't because of homosexuality as we know it today - a loving relationship between two men. It was because of their inhospitality and their greed -to protect their city's wealth, that they would not let strangers into their city. It was because of this that they wanted to humiliate the strangers by forcibly gang raping them- to teach them a lesson so that they dare not come back. Afterall, what is more humiliating than gang-raping a man. It was sure to serve as a deterrent to future visitors who may want to come there for their wealth. Lot pleaded with them and even offered up his own daughters but they refused. They wanted the men(angels) in Lot's house. Now tell me, do you think that the gang of men were so sex-crazed that they just all wanted to 'make love' to these three men out of all the men and women in that city at the same time? Definitely not. They wanted to RAPE them. That was their sin. That was the sin of Sodom in that instance- Rape, Humiliation, Inhospitality. Added to this, is their wickedness and other sins that made God send down his angels to come and survey things for themselves first hand. These were all the sins of Sodom and that is why the city was destroyed. Not because of Homosexuality. or do you think that if instead of the gang of men requesting for the male angels, but requesting for females instead that the city would be spared? No. The city would still have been destroyed even if it was women that wanted to rape. So please, lets open our minds to the real truth why Sodom was destroyed and not equate it with homosexuality- which is simply two people who are attracted to each other, fall in love and just want happily ever after like every heterosexual wants.

I know that some of you have looked at the story of Sodom in this way before because you haven't taken the time to do your own studies and research. Or because you have always been told by your pastor and everyone around you that Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed for homosexuality. Well think again! People have always distorted their interpretation of the bible for their own selfish means. Afterall, the bible was used over the years to subjugate women and treat them like second class citizens. And yes they are biblical passages that support this treatment, but does that make it right? Is a woman any less than a man because of an accident of birth? And to believe that up till the 1920's that women did not have the right to vote in the US or in many other countries and couldn't own property. Even in Nigeria today, women cannot own property in some places if their husbands die. And believe me, the bible was used over the years to support this kind of treatment. It is no different for homosexuals. The Bible has been used by people to condemn them- people who dont understand their unique struggles. the Bible has always been used to condemn the minority and the weaker groups.

It was this same Bible that was used to justify slavery by the White man over more than 200 years. And yes there are passages which clearly support slavery. This continued until the 1960's in the US when the Black man got the right to vote. This continued until the 1990's in South Africa when Apartheid was abolished. The bible was used to support the inferiority of the Black race and that was why this all happened. The bible was also used to prevent Interracial marriages between blacks and whites in the US up till the 1970s because an inferior and a superior race are not supposed to mix. Dear Nairalander, so much iniquity has been committed against minority and oppressed groups in the name of the bible, yet today, we ignore those parts of the bible because event though they might applied in the old times, they dont apply in our time.

It is amazing how our Lord Jesus never said a word regarding homosexuality. All he preached all his life was love. Love your God and Love your neighbour. No condemnation. No judgements. Just do the right thing and be true to your conscience. And believe me, there is nothing more damning to the conscience of a homosexual as faking love and attraction to the opposite sex so that he can get married and escape societies expectations and all. It is damning to his soul because deep down, he knows that he is not only sinning against his conscience and God, he is also sinning against the innocent partner that has been brought into the marriage or relationship. The homosexual harbours his secret and it slowly eats him up. The quality of his relationship with his spouse can never be perfect because there is a secret there- the foundation of the relationship is built on lies. This makes it easier to tell more lies and keep more secrets in the marriage. In truth, closeted gay people (like most Nigerians) have not true friends. They are there own best friends and the keeper of the secrets. Afterall, how can you say you have a friend when you are not even able to talk with that friend about your true crush? Or share details about your true feelings? Friendships are formed by sharing and the closeted homosexual has learnt through life to shut himself off and just keep his struggles buried deep. The closet is a place of great sorrow- for the person . It is also a terrible thing because of the collateral damage that follows it.

My write-up has become too lengthy and if you are still reading up to this point, then you must be a strong 'pesin'. All I hope I have accomplished is to make you see things from a different lens - the lens of a christian who is questioning and seeking a deeper faith on this issue; the lens of a concerned person who may not be homosexual but can for a second put himself in those shoes. There will always be those 10% of people in every society that are gay - this has been so since the creation of man and it will continue to be so. The same way that there is homosexuality in a certain percentage of animals too. It is as natural as heterosexuality. Its just part of God's variety- the same way left-handed people are. The question is what do as a society do with and for them? Do we acknowledge them and make it easier for them to lead honest and productive lives or are we going to discriminate and make them go further in the closet and deny their true selves? - That is the question.

Thank you for reading and I hope you take out time to think things through for yourself and discover your own truth. Why? Because you dont know who amongst you is gay- It may be your closest brother; it may be that your female friend that is always kind to you; it may be your Father who even cheated on your mother once early in the marriage before you were born; it may be that 40-something year old handsome lawyer that you always see drive past in his Jeep and you wonder why he is still single; it may be your husband who is usually sexually and emotionally aloof and likes to spend time with his best buddy instead. Most importantly - it could be your child. He may still be be a baby now but he already has a sexuality and in 10 to 15 years, he will become aware of it. It could be anybody- 'e no dey show for face'. Gay people come in all shapes and sizes, fro the the most macho to the effeminate; from the most educated and responsible to the lowlife - there are no stereotypes. So please drop all your misconceptions and think of these people as human beings- deserving of your Christian love, understanding and acceptance; just the way they are.

BashiruB:

Dear Nairalanders,

Lets me contribute my two cents to this discussion. I hope you guys keep an open mind and respond politely if you wish. The issue of homosexuality is a complex yet it is not supposed to be so complex. Like they say, you cannot understand another man's situation if you have not walked in his shoes. And if you are heterosexual, you can never understand the struggles and experiences of a homosexual person. I just hope that you will try to put yourself in those shoes for a minute while you read this. The most important thing I want you to do is to keep an open mind and not equate homosexuality with just a sexual act. Afterall, when you think of heterosexuality, you dont think of sex. You think feelings, love, the need for human companionship and maybe sex down the line. But sex is not the building block. In the same vein, a 15 year -old boy may discover that he only has same sex feelings but he never actually engages in same sex activity all his life as he enters the priesthood. That doesnt make him any less gay. He was gay at 15 and he will be gay all his life. that he never engages in the a sexual act doesnt change who you are attracted to. Or do you think priests and reverend sisters and 12 year old kids are asexual? Ofcourse not. You may not be engaged in sex, but it doesnt mean you do not have a sexual orientation. Its either gay or straight. So please lets disentangle this discourse from sexual intercourse. Its about who you are drawn to emotionally, physically and spiritually.

First and foremost, I believe the cardinal bone of contention here is that most people find it had to believe that people are born gay. The real question is, Are people born heterosexual? If you believe that you were born heterosexual then do you think it is possible that some people were born gay? I want to assume that if you are straight that there was never a point in your life when you were attracted to both males and females; after which you then decided to choose the opposite sex. Did you ever get to make that conscious choice? I doubt it. Then why do you think that a gay person was given that choice by God? Why would anybody ever choose to be attracted to the same sex when he knows the price that he will pay in society? The risks are numerous- your family will disown you in a heartbeat, all your friends will abandon you and any hope for a real fulfilling future is gone; all because for no reason, you hit puberty and you discover that you are different.

If you are straight, you may not understand this. But I assume that if you are a guy that around the age of 11-12, you started becoming interested in girls. That is normal at puberty. Imagine if at that age you find yourself with no attraction whatsoever to the opposite sex, but only to your own sex. That is the reality of a gay person. You try to fight it. You try to go to all the church deliverances and say all the prayers and promise God everything if only he will just take it away- If only he will just make you normal. Believe me, that is the only prayer of gay people. You try hard to keep the secret and you also are afraid that if anybody finds out the secret, that you may be mobbed in a heartbeat. It is hard enough for a heterosexual teenage boy to stay focused in school and stuff because hormones are raging and you want to chyke guys and all. Imagine how much harder it is for gay people when you know that what you have is what Oscar Wilde called 'the love that dare not speak its name'. You can't tell anyone about it. You just live with your secret into your twenties. Some are bold enough to carry on with secret relationships with their peers just like their heterosexual mates are doing. Others torture themselves everyday because they cannot reconcile what they feel inside with what their religion and society has told them that they should feel. Its no wonder that the rates of teenage depression, suicide and all is so high. In the US, teenage suicide among gay teens is 7 times what it is in heterosexual teens- This means that for every 100 suicides among teenagers, more than 80 of these will be gay teens - usually those struggling to come to terms with their sexuality or experiencing rejection or discrimination from their friends and families. Do you think 14, 15 year old teenagers will want to kill themselves over something they could change? Think again. Do you know the kind of emotional turmoil that a gay person must be in to think that the best solution is to take your life and just escape this earth and its hardship? I'm sure you cant begin to imagine this. But like I said, try and walk in the homosexuals shoes for a minute because unless you can do this you will never understand his life experiences.

But then, you are a human being- with hormones and real feelings. Just like a 15 or 16 year old boy would see a girl in his class and like to 'toast' her, there also gay people who are surrounded by people that they are attracted to- but who they dont want to be attracted to. Its simple biology. Every human being has the capacity to love and be loved. But people do not control the sex they are attracted to. If you are straight and think it is a choice, I bet that If I offer you a billion dollars to turn gay, that you will not be able to. And by turning gay i mean that you will be genuinely attracted emotionally, psychologically, spiritually and then physically to someone of your same sex. Believe me, you cannot do it. Why? Because you were not born that way. It is the same way for people who are gay. They have tried and tried and begged God and done everything but it doesnt go away. Most importantly, most gay people do not have the natural attraction to the opposite sex - so what should they do? They just cannot connect emotionally, spiritually and physically to the opposite sex as they can to their own sex. Its plain and simple. It would be easier for some if they had a natural capacity to like both sexes- truly Bisexual people have that capacity and so they can swing both ways naturally. But for most gay people, they are forced by societal and religious pressure to go into heterosexual relationships that they are not naturaly equipped to go into.

In Nigeria, we dont even acknowledge the existence of homosexuality and so I'm sure that we may have no statistics on the magnitude of this issue. If we are to go by what the researchers say, 2-5 % of every population is gay. Every population means every population and not just Western population like we want to believe. In other accounts, this proportion is closer to 10%. This will mean that close to 15 million Nigerian are most likely gay. Gay people seem to be non-existent because in truth, heterosexuals are about 80-90% of people and they will always be the majority. Its just the way nature works. As the most populous black nation on earth, it also means that we have the highest concentration of black gay people on this earth. I am not saying this to alarm you, but it is just a reality of life and nature that will shock you probably because you may think that you dont know too many gay people personally. But then, who in his right sense will tell another person in Nigeria that he is gay. People just carry on with their secret affairs and pretend that everything is ok. We are a nation that is notorious for hidding things under the basket.

Most gay people go ahead and get married. For most of them, they may like and even learn to LOVE their spouses, but they will never be IN LOVE with their spouses because they can never connect on that level with them. And I believe that every one deserves to be with someone that is truly IN LOVE with them and not someone that is using them as a cover for the busy-body Nigerian society that will begin to wonder why this middle-aged Nigerian man is not married. If you are woman, you want a man that loves you completely and you will be utterly heartbroken to find out that your husband is gay and is having affairs with men outside. Yes, with men. A married gay man will not have affairs with women, it is with men- because it is men that he is truly attracted to and their is nothing that his 'poor' wife can do to change his biology or to give him emotional and yes- sexual, satisfaction. And believe me sexual satisfaction is a big part of every relationship- gay or straight. Most importantly, his poor wife will not be genuinely loved and may not have a fulfilling sex life because the man is not genuinely attracted to her. So we have an innocent woman who is trapped in a loveless marriage with a man who may contract an STD anytime if he is not careful. This is what they call the 'Down low syndrome' among African American communities- gay men who are forced to live straight live and have wives and girlfriends. Believe me, this scenario I just recounted is living and thriving in our own Naija as it is in all parts of the world. In more open cities like Lagos, there is a thriving gay prostitution scene where 'respectable' men go to satisfy their passions. Some men, enter into long term relationships with their 'buddies' while still keeping their wives. Secrets, Secrets and Lies everywhere. I'll use the handedness analogy for this issue because it is very appropriate. About 10% of people are born left-handed while 90% are born right-handed. Its an in-born thing which in times past was seen as an abomination. There were times when left-handed people were persecuted and killed (you can do your research on this). In Nigeria now, left-handed kids still have it tough. Most parents try to change their kids and most parent succeed in making them learn to use their right hands. Still, those kids never truly lose the function of their left hands. They just learn to become ambidextrous and they learn to write and eat and take stuff from their elders with their right hands. But after all said and done, they are all still most comfortable with the left and always resort to it when no one is looking or when they are all grown up. For a small percentage, they will never learn to use their right hands and they are the ones whom their parents will always flog. Still, they never are able to learn it. Its just their nature. It is that way with gay people. You may force yourself out of societal pressure to be with the opposite sex but you never truly loose your attraction for your own sex. Most times, this leads to cheating in marriages. For the small percentage of gay men and women who cannot even fake an attaction to the opposite sex, there are like the perpetual left-handers- unable to conform to society's expectation, not out of their own stubbornness but because of how God created them

Who do we blame for this kind of double life? It is easy to blame the gay man or woman, but then we should ask ourselves- what role do we play in cultivating this kind of double life? Isnt society to blame for being so hostile to the idea of homosexuality that people are forced to live in the closet and deny an essential part of themselves? I'll tell you this, if you know anybody that is openly gay in Nigeria and has chosen not to marry but to be honest with themselves, you should go up to them and give them a handshake. Because they have defied all the pressure from religion and society to do the honorable thing and live life with dignity instead of deceiving an innocent person into marriage. They are the ones that have chosen to obey their consciences and be honest. Most importantly, for that gay married person, can you imagine how unhappy his life is. Knowing that you have to lie everyday and that you cannot truly be yourself or be with someone you may truly love because of society. Its a hopeless situation and thing can only begin to get better when people realise that the gay person cannot change to a heterosexual anymore than the heterosexual can turn gay. People are just made that way by God for his own reasons and it does not go away anymore than a heterosexual person suddenly stops being heterosexual. Once we learn this truth, we can begin to accept people for what they are and then they may feel comfortable living honest lives. But we cannot expect people to acknowledge their homosexuality when we as a society will want to treat them as second class citizens.

As a gay Christians will tell you, they have made peace with themselves and they know that God loves them the way they are. They do not consider a same-sex loving couple in a monogamous relationship to be a sin and I dont either. By this relationship, I mean 2 people of the same sex who are comlpletely devoted to each other and have chosen to build a life together. In some countries in the West and even in South Africa, they are legally married and some of them have biological or adopted kids and are as normal as every family. The only difference is that both partners are of the same sex. And please get your head out of the gutter and dont think about what they do in bed or how they do it in bed because it is not anybody's business what happens in the confines on one's bed chambers. This may seem silly to some of you but I ask you to read on. First and foremost, I want you to use you brain because God gave it to to you for a reason - to think independently and make up your mind on issues. Ignore whatever you have been told that the Bible said and look for God's answers on your own. Now, there is a school of thought that says that Biblical interpretation should be taken literally- that is, just exactly the way it is written in the Bible, while there is a second school of thought that says that you should look at everything said in the Bible in the context of the times in which it was written. i belong to the second school of thought.

Let me begin by saying that we all know that people say that the Bible is the 'word' of God. I agree that the Bible was inspired by God; but it was not written by God. It was written by inspired men who wrote in their own 'words' and not God's exact 'words'. This men wrote within their own socio-cultural context and this is abundant when we consider the things in the bible that we ignore today because it doesnt make sense in our time. The literalist will always throw the passages in Leviticus that say that a man must not lie with another man because it is an abomination. However, the literalist also tries to forget verses in that same Leviticus that say that if a woman is not a virgin on her wedding night, that she should be taken back to her father's house and stoned to death; and that a disobedient child should also be stoned to death. This same Leviticus said that it was an abomination to mix two types of fabrics together. It also calls it an abomination to eat shellfish. And the list goes on and on, It called all these things an abomination. Yet today, we all eat shellfish, we all wear ankara and brocade in the same cloth and we all eat shellfish. Most girls are not virgins when they get married and their husbands do not return then to their fathers and stone them to death. Why then do we persist in
hurling these passages at gay people. These portions of the bible make it clear that the people that wrote it did so in line with their own cultural practices thousands of years ago. In this age and time, some of those passage will be seen as sexist and child abuse.

Now, we know that the Bible was not written in English. Infact the Bible as we know it was not compiled in its original language until hundreds of years after the death of Christ when the Church decided to put together a Holy Book based on religious writings. Of course by then there were so any writings. These writing were mostly stories handed down by word of mouth and passages by the early Christians to successive generations. By around 400 years after the death of Christ when the Vulgate bible was compiled, there were a lot of books written and it was up to a select committee of men to choose and decide which books will make it into what we now know as the Bible. Out of thousands of books, they choose the 66 books that we now know as the Bible. Or do you think that it was only Matthew, Mark, luke and John that told stories about Jesus and had it written into books? There were many other Gospels. There is the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Barnabas,Gospel of Truth, Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Mary and the list goes on. Why werent these ones selected? The point I am trying to make is that the assembling of the Bible as we know it was done by human beings like you and me with their own guiding philosophies and interests and so it makes no sense when someone assumes a literalist stance and says that the Bible provides the answer to everything that is God's will.

Now we know that the bible is full of passages that make it clear that the place of a woman in society is akin to that of a man's property. She is to be seen and not to be heard. A man could marry plenty wives in the Bible and nothing was wrong with that- Moses was married to Sarah and still sired a child through her maid, Solomon had hundreds of wives. This was normal in their time, but in this age and time, we do not subscribe to those beliefs because we whether we like it or not, we agree that the bible is context specific and that those things that were acceptable in that culture do not apply now. Just look at the high rate of divorces everywhere and you will agree that we are not following the bible to the letter. Now it stands to reason that if women were invited to the table when the final 66 books of the Bible were being out together, that there will have been some protest against some books that expressly permit discrimination against women. For example, we have a place in the new testament that says that women should not speak in a place of worship and should instead sit and listen. Up till date, some churches still use that to ban the adoption of women into the clergy. But tell me, do you think that a woman who is spirit-filled is any less an instrument of God than a man? There are numerous instance where the Bible has been used to denigrate a particular group- whether women, slaves or homosexuals. But i bet that if people fro any of these groups were present during the final compilation of the Bible, that the parts of the Bible that harm them will not have made it into the final draft. My point- the Bible is a book inspired by God but written by man and put together by man to reflect his peculiar leaning. My point- Learn to look at things for yourself and question a bit- Because as someone said, it is only by questioning your faith that you van find a deeper faith.


We know from the translation of the Bible over two thousand years that it has been through many languages. The original languages in which it was first transcribed are mostly non-existent now. And we also know that the 'homosexuality' did not appear in the English bible until about 1949. Before then, most translations referred to some of the verses as male prostitution and co. It is no surprise that homosexuality as we know it today- a loving relationship between people of the same sex, was not written of in the bible because the Biblical writers did not have any concept of sexuality or same-gender loving relationships like we have today. How can the bible then condemn homosexuality when the word didnt make it way in there until about 2,000 years later. it is in the same way that we dont expect the Bible to give us answers to issues like Nuclear energy or assisted reproduction techniques or Information technology because in the biblical times, they had no concept of this.

To be sure, the bible condemned male prostitution- just as it did for female prostitution. And it is this word that many biblical scholars feel have been mutated over time to no become homosexuality in the bible. But then, how does male prostitution equate with a present-day same gender-loving relationship like we know it to be today where you have partners that are committed to themselves physically and emotionally just as heterosexuals are?

And to be sue too, Paul condemns people who have given up their 'natural' desires to pursue the same sex. The only thing is that for the homosexual, what is 'natural' is attraction to the same sex. Being with an opposite sex partner to the gay person is as unnatural as forcing a heterosexual to sleep with someone of the same sex. The level of revulsion is the same. The only difference is that society forces the homosexual to effectively 'violation' himself/herself, go against his nature and do it. It is not a surprise that Paul felt that people were giving up their natural desires. Afterall, the concept of sexuality as we know it today was not their in his time. And so I'm sure that he assumed that it was only the kind of desires he had that were the 'natural' ones. In that way, he is no different than you the reader or most heterosexuals who always wonder what the f*** is wrong with gay people? Why would they give up what you have and that which you assume is natural to most people- heterosexuality, to pursue homosexuality? The answer boils down to what I have said earlier- if you have not lived in a gay person's body and gone through what he has gone through- the hormones, the exclusive same-sex feelings, the utter absence of opposite-sex attraction throughout life, then who are you to tell him that his feelings are not 'natural'? It is just like telling a left-handed child that his 'bad' habit is not natural and that he should stop it. This a very telling analogy because almost all gay people who speak truthfully say that they have always known that they were different. Some know as early as 7-8 years in life. They might not have the word for it at that age and they certainly are not engaging in any sexual activity at that age, but they do know that the way they feel about people of their own sex is not quite 'normal'. So to base the condemnation of homosexuality on what St. Paul has said would be not to use our God-given intelligence to think for ourselves. if God created some people homosexual, then how can we say that their desires are unnatural?

Some people try to say that homosexuality is mostly environmental and that people who may have been abused sexually or had absent parental figures are the ones at risk. This is utter garbage. Did you become heterosexual because you were abused by an opposite sex uncle or aunt? Did the environment really have anything to do with your sexuality or did you just hit puberty and found it there? Afterall, almost every homosexual was raised in an home by a mother and a father and if environmental influences are the strongest, then the child should have learnt from his parent's example and also become heterosexual. Infact, I dont believe there is any gay family in Nigeria, why then do we still have homosexuals in our society? This brings me to the issue of the arguement against gay parenting. People say that if homosexuality and hay marriage and parenting becomes allowed, that children will be turned gay in those families. How so? Parents have no influence on the sexual orientation of their children and gay parents are not any more likely to raise gay kids than straight parents. Afterall, most of the gay parents were raised by straight parents and they still turned out gay! Go figure!

The most common Biblical portion used against homosexuality is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. The popular assumption is that the city was destroyed solely because of homosexuality. This cannot be further away from the truth. God saw the iniquities of Sodom- their greed, lust, wickedness and all. Sodom was a very rich city but they had given themselves unto wickedness. Because of their wealth and wickedness, there were notoriously territorial and did not let people into their city lest they try to tap into the source of their wealth. God saw all this and wanted to destroy them but he instead decided to send his angels to see for themselves. Keep in mind that ab initio, God wanted to destroy them- which was why he told Abraham later in the Bible that if he had seen even just ten righteous men in all the city of Sodom, that he would have spared the city. Back to the story. So the angels were welcomed to Lots house but as soon as the men of the city heard that they had visitors in the city, they demanded that they be brought out to them. It was there in-hospitality and wickedness that made them demand that the angels be brought out to them so that they could 'know' them. This means to forcibly violation them. S we have a mob of maybe hundreds of men who men who want to gang violation three angels. Why? It wasn't because of homosexuality as we know it today - a loving relationship between two men. It was because of their inhospitality and their greed -to protect their city's wealth, that they would not let strangers into their city. It was because of this that they wanted to humiliate the strangers by forcibly gang despoiling them- to teach them a lesson so that they dare not come back. Afterall, what is more humiliating than gang-despoiling a man. It was sure to serve as a deterrent to future visitors who may want to come there for their wealth. Lot pleaded with them and even offered up his own daughters but they refused. They wanted the men(angels) in Lot's house. Now tell me, do you think that the gang of men were so sex-crazed that they just all wanted to 'make love' to these three men out of all the men and women in that city at the same time? Definitely not. They wanted to violation them. That was their sin. That was the sin of Sodom in that instance- violation, Humiliation, Inhospitality. Added to this, is their wickedness and other sins that made God send down his angels to come and survey things for themselves first hand. These were all the sins of Sodom and that is why the city was destroyed. Not because of Homosexuality. or do you think that if instead of the gang of men requesting for the male angels, but requesting for females instead that the city would be spared? No. The city would still have been destroyed even if it was women that wanted to violation. So please, lets open our minds to the real truth why Sodom was destroyed and not equate it with homosexuality- which is simply two people who are attracted to each other, fall in love and just want happily ever after like every heterosexual wants.

I know that some of you have looked at the story of Sodom in this way before because you haven't taken the time to do your own studies and research. Or because you have always been told by your pastor and everyone around you that Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed for homosexuality. Well think again! People have always distorted their interpretation of the bible for their own selfish means. Afterall, the bible was used over the years to subjugate women and treat them like second class citizens. And yes they are biblical passages that support this treatment, but does that make it right? Is a woman any less than a man because of an accident of birth? And to believe that up till the 1920's that women did not have the right to vote in the US or in many other countries and couldn't own property. Even in Nigeria today, women cannot own property in some places if their husbands die. And believe me, the bible was used over the years to support this kind of treatment. It is no different for homosexuals. The Bible has been used by people to condemn them- people who dont understand their unique struggles. the Bible has always been used to condemn the minority and the weaker groups.

It was this same Bible that was used to justify slavery by the White man over more than 200 years. And yes there are passages which clearly support slavery. This continued until the 1960's in the US when the Black man got the right to vote. This continued until the 1990's in South Africa when Apartheid was abolished. The bible was used to support the inferiority of the Black race and that was why this all happened. The bible was also used to prevent Interracial marriages between blacks and whites in the US up till the 1970s because an inferior and a superior race are not supposed to mix. Dear Nairalander, so much iniquity has been committed against minority and oppressed groups in the name of the bible, yet today, we ignore those parts of the bible because event though they might applied in the old times, they dont apply in our time.

It is amazing how our Lord Jesus never said a word regarding homosexuality. All he preached all his life was love. Love your God and Love your neighbour. No condemnation. No judgements. Just do the right thing and be true to your conscience. And believe me, there is nothing more damning to the conscience of a homosexual as faking love and attraction to the opposite sex so that he can get married and escape societies expectations and all. It is damning to his soul because deep down, he knows that he is not only sinning against his conscience and God, he is also sinning against the innocent partner that has been brought into the marriage or relationship. The homosexual harbours his secret and it slowly eats him up. The quality of his relationship with his spouse can never be perfect because there is a secret there- the foundation of the relationship is built on lies. This makes it easier to tell more lies and keep more secrets in the marriage. In truth, closeted gay people (like most Nigerians) have not true friends. They are there own best friends and the keeper of the secrets. Afterall, how can you say you have a friend when you are not even able to talk with that friend about your true crush? Or share details about your true feelings? Friendships are formed by sharing and the closeted homosexual has learnt through life to shut himself off and just keep his struggles buried deep. The closet is a place of great sorrow- for the person . It is also a terrible thing because of the collateral damage that follows it.

My write-up has become too lengthy and if you are still reading up to this point, then you must be a strong 'pesin'. All I hope I have accomplished is to make you see things from a different lens - the lens of a christian who is questioning and seeking a deeper faith on this issue; the lens of a concerned person who may not be homosexual but can for a second put himself in those shoes. There will always be those 10% of people in every society that are gay - this has been so since the creation of man and it will continue to be so. The same way that there is homosexuality in a certain percentage of animals too. It is as natural as heterosexuality. Its just part of God's variety- the same way left-handed people are. The question is what do as a society do with and for them? Do we acknowledge them and make it easier for them to lead honest and productive lives or are we going to discriminate and make them go further in the closet and deny their true selves? - That is the question.

Thank you for reading and I hope you take out time to think things through for yourself and discover your own truth. Why? Because you dont know who amongst you is gay- It may be your closest brother; it may be that your female friend that is always kind to you; it may be your Father who even cheated on your mother once early in the marriage before you were born; it may be that 40-something year old handsome lawyer that you always see drive past in his Jeep and you wonder why he is still single; it may be your husband who is usually sexually and emotionally aloof and likes to spend time with his best buddy instead. Most importantly - it could be your child. He may still be be a baby now but he already has a sexuality and in 10 to 15 years, he will become aware of it. It could be anybody- 'e no dey show for face'. Gay people come in all shapes and sizes, fro the the most macho to the effeminate; from the most educated and responsible to the lowlife - there are no stereotypes. So please drop all your misconceptions and think of these people as human beings- deserving of your Christian love, understanding and acceptance; just the way they are.

guy,u try ooo,i dey read am dey read am,don tire, u rily think u know a lot abt dis kind of ppl,dat i was even tempted to think u r GAY .but maybe you r just trying to be fair

Hello everyone! Please who knows anyone that got admitted into LMU Munich for masters in American History Culture and society. Please help anyone??

kapputt.....bye bye to bad rubbish.....

Gbawe:


What you say above is the sort of thing an unrepentant racist would say about the brutal murder of a black man by white supremacists. As long as we all continue to promote hatred towards others then we should not be surprised to fall victim to such mindless hatred sooner or later.

abegi,dont even start...rascm is rascm....this is abomination....two different things....