From the foregoing it has been made clear that there is a concequencial difference between

Sin against the Holy Spirit and Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit

,   thank you Bari-Kade.

I have a question please,

from all what we see around us in the world today regarding works of miracles and healing that we can violently argue that they are stage managed and/or not real or that the powers being used are not of and not from God.

Would this thought or pronouncement be regarded as Blasphemy against the Spirit too?

If Yes, then some of us are in serious trouble with God.

Religious doctrines and rules are like goverment constitution,wise people thought of it as moral standard and guidelines of their time,it is subject to amendment based on the time and the need of the people.It is mainly used to control and manipulatate the adherents of religion so that they keep believing and keep looking forward to the salvation that is their birth right.As far as i am concern,we don't have any religious belief in africa today that is original to us,just like every other thing,that is why we are still yet to grasp the basic fundamental mechanism of life,we live in a fairy world where we expect the angels to come from heaven to teach us how to think and do things.Another great sin in life is IGNORACE of any kind.Those who have eyes let them see,christ said it,yet people have their eyes open but can't see.Christ was a rebel,rebel against his time,a rebel against religious beliefs and most of all a rebel against ignorance.

Hi @kaypinchi,

I was trying to post this reply earlier but had technical hitches. Here now.

Thanks for your question. Upfront, I would say that my knowledge and insight on this subject is quite limited; and I learn as well from others. Howeevr, here are my thoughts on the question you have asked:

kaypinchi:

from all what we see around us in the world today regarding works of miracles and healing that we can violently argue that they are stage managed and/or not real or that the powers being used are not of and not from God.

Would this thought or pronouncement be regarded as Blasphemy against the Spirit too?

I quite appreciate the way you articulated this question. We know that many miracles performed today are false - even if they come in the name of Jesus Christ. Two verses for this thought:

Matt. 24: "(5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ;
and shall deceive many.

(24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets,
and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that,
if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

II Cor. 11: "(3) But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve
through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the
simplicity that is in Christ.

(4) For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have
not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not
received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might
well bear with him.


However, people have been opposed to the idea of miracles that they lose sight altogether of what to make of any alleged case of a miracle. As a result, some have been doubtful and consequently said that the miracles they observed or heard about were not of God.

Now let's remain with that for a moment. If someone doubts a miracle and says that "it is not of God", would that be the same thing as blasphemy? I don't think so, because Scripture doesn't put the case of blasphemy that way. Being doubtful of what spirit is operating in any given setting is not the same thing as blaspheming the Holy Ghost.

If, however, a person has been convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that the miracle being observed is actually by the power of the Holy Spirit, and yet he/she deliberately pronounces blasphemously that the Spirit who gave such miracles was none other than "the prince of demons; Beelzebub; an unclean spirit", etc. . . I'm afraid that such a person is fulfilling Jesus' Words in Mark 3.

Now, people wonder about this question and ask further: does it then mean that a blasphemer against the Holy Ghost is incapable of even trying to repent?

My answer is that, quite to the contrary, such a person may try to seek repentance. There are cases where people have done and said things after making dire pronouncements; but when they sought repentance even in tears, they could not find it. A case in point is recorded in Heb. 12:17 - "For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."

Jesus said that forgiveness will not be granted to blasphemers against the Holy Ghost - either in this age or in that to come (Matt. 12:32). But here is something we should be reminded of: blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a deliberate action that is made after several warnings! Let me share on this:

In Matthew 10, Jesus remarked that they had called Him (Jesus) Beelzebul (vs.25). But notice that Jesus did not take up issues with them. His accusers already knew in their hearts that He was a teacher come from God ("they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth - Mark 12:14). But even at all that, some of them still went ahead made the utter seal of their fate by openly blaspheming against the Holy Spirit!

I have often said that those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit do not do so in ignorance! It is a deliberate act!

For believers, please rest your heart: God's Spirit resides in you; and He is well able to preserve your hearts.

Cheers.

I'll just like to quickly add this:

Who is the Holy Spirit?

There are so many answers and understanding that people have to this question; and while most of them are based on human inferences, perhaps it might be more helpful to see what Scripture says about Him.

Citing a common example: many people attribute justice to the Holy Spirit while Jesus is ascribed to love. I'm persuaded that this is a grave mistake. Justice and divine judgement come directly from the Father, who commits all these unto the Son. Remember what Jesus said in John 5? "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son . . And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man" (vss. 22 & 27).

And what about love? The Trinity is involved in this as well, for we read of love of the Father (1 John 4:9); the love of Christ (Rom. 8:35; II Cor. 5:14); and the love of the Spirit (Rom. 15:30). These are not all different kinds or even different expressions of love - they are all one and the same divine love of God which has been shed abroad in our hearts (Rom. 5:5 & 8:39).

So then, because the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are inseparable in love, justice and judgement, I think it's a grave mistake to arrogate just one role or element to just one of them. So, who is the Holy Spirit?

First and foremost, the Holy Spirit is a divine Person. He is not a 'force' as some have erroneously thought. Both His attributes and works demonstrate the fact of His divine Personality as are the Father and the Son.

Second, in context of our subject, He is the reality and very expression of God's holiness. For all that we would ever know or understand about God's holiness are found in the Spirit of God; for which reason in the NT we often read of Him as the 'Holy Spirit'. You know the Holy Spirit is present where you find holiness in reality; and where He is present, there you will find the very presence of God.


Later, I'll take up other issues.

God bless.

much i think has been said on the sin against the holy spirit,but i think it really bothers down on apostasy.(APOSTASY)willfully denying the lord,his spirit and bieng a part of the christian bla bla bla.i believe you all know what i mean. jesus making mention of not grieving the holy spirit is not refering to sinning against the holy spirit cause the holy spirit has feelings that means he can be grieved.but my point here is that the sin against the holy spirit is when one deliberately denies his faith by renoucing his faith publicly.that's why the scripture said it is hard for one who has tested of the holy spirit and then goes back to his old self by looking back and leaving the christian faith that for such a one to be restored back to the faith it will take the grace of God i.e it will almost be impossible to be restored. this is not talking about backsliding.i hope i made some point here

Hi Kingly,

I trust you made some good points. However, just a few things to add:

kingly:

but my point here is that the sin against the holy spirit is when one deliberately denies his faith by renoucing his faith publicly.

Apostacy and blasphemy are not the same thing either. An apostate is one who renounces the faith after having prefessed it; and the verses dealing with apostacy indicate that apostates never truly knew the Lord, but only went along with the crowd.

Blasphemy, on the other hand, is deliberately vilify the Person or the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy is not merely ridicling the work of God; rather, it goes beyond that to actually attack the very Person of the Holy Spirit by calling Him an unclean spirit and all kinds of diabolic names. It was not because they doubted as to renouce the faith; rather it was specifically "because they said, He hath an unclean spirit" (Mark 3:30). So, we see that the blasphemy agint the Holy Spirit simply points to calling Him diabolic names and referring to HIM as a demon spirit!

It was only when the scribes made this pronouncements against the Spirit that the Lord Jesus Christ stated the obvious warning

kingly:

that's why the scripture said it is hard for one who has tested of the holy spirit and then goes back to his old self by looking back and leaving the christian faith that for such a one to be restored back to the faith it will take the grace of God i.e it will almost be impossible to be restored. this is not talking about backsliding.i hope i made some point here

Well, you will recall that a blasphemer against the Holy Ghost "hath never forgiveness", says Jesus (Mark 3:29). With a blasphemer, there is not the slightest possibility of a recovery - for the simple reason that such people deliberately pronounced the Holy Spirit for what He is NOT!

But what about apostates - is there any hope of perhaps a recovery? I believe so. The Bible says of such that, "they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will" (2 Tim. 2:26).

I hope this was helpful as well.

Interesting so far. As we continue to share on the questions of this topic, perhaps it might be helpful to consider the positives things as well.

I can understand that questions about sinning against the holy Spirit may cause some to be a bit quizzed; but then, maybe we should also look at the broader context of the blessings that the Holy Spirit provides to the believer.

Just a thought.

the law of balance.

this is so simple and yet so difficult. in life, everything must be balanced. there must be giving as well as receiving, you must breathe in as well as breathe out, you must eat all the classes of food (i.e balanced diet), the list is endless. when you upset these balance, you are goin against the laws of the holy spirit and you must face the consequences. e.g when you eat too much carbohydrate, or too much protein e.t.c you have a side effect. when you dont give, you do not expect to receive.

the law of sowing and reaping

you must sow rice to reap rice, you must sow wheat to reap wheat. likewise you must sow good to reap good and vice versa. so whatever you do, you must reap the consequences times over. again when you do not obey this law, you are going against the will of the holy spirit which is made manifest in these laws.

the law of cycle

here, everything must come back to the originator. so when you do something evil and think you have gotten away with it, my dear you havent just yet.all of mans actions i.e words, thoughts, actions or deeds must return to the originator, the cycle must be complete. so before yo go ahead and do evil, always remember that it will come back to you, probably worse than you metted out.

the law of gravity

again, very simple. whatever goes up must come down. if you are heavy , you sink if you are light, you float. thus if you are heavy with sin, you find yourself descending into the nether regions and if you are light (i.e blameless before god) you find yourself floating into the regions of light.

there are other laws that govern creation, but these are the most popular. that is why i hold the view that you dont need to have read the bible to stay away from blasphemy (cos a lot of people have read the bible and still cannot satisfactorily explain the concept of blasphemy against the holy spirit). if you live your life by obeying the will of God, i.e these laws that govern creation, you will never blasphem against the holy spirit or grieve him

thanks bari_kade for putting me right

i used to think that blaspemy was speaking in tongues when you've not being empowered by the holy ghost
and im sure its the same with a lot of xtians and that's why most of us don't speak in tongues

however, thanks to God i've learned that speaking in tongues if not done deliberately to mock it is not the same as blasphemy
or wot wld u say about actors.

So id say blasphemy like Jesus said is "saying that Jesus is not the son of God" or Jesus is a Liar

Al;ways speak in tongues, no let d devil make u fear, its ur right!

segebee:

or Jesus is a Liar

that one is so funny, , never heard that version before!i've actually learnt so much on this thread.

@ bari_kade,

please give me the bible verse of that one (i.e calling jesus a liar).

I think an example of sin against the HOLY SPIRIT [/color]is having SEX out of wedlock ,since we understand the fact that the HOLYSPIRIT lives in us.
A preacher analysed it this way:
How many of you will be making love to their spouses and invite the house help to watch?
So as such,the HOLY SPIRIT [color=Black]lives within us and that's what we mean when we talk about conscience.
So when we do some things against all warnings from HIM,we have sinned against him and we cannot say that it is non-deliberate.
Likewise the things we say.
When we say things we've already considered in our hearts as being blasphemous we also sin against HIM.

bari_kade:

Who is the Holy Spirit?

There are so many answers and understanding that people have to this question; and while most of them are based on human inferences, perhaps it might be more helpful to see what Scripture says about Him.

Citing a common example: many people attribute justice to the Holy Spirit while Jesus is ascribed to love. I'm persuaded that this is a grave mistake. Justice and divine judgement come directly from the Father, who commits all these unto the Son. Remember what Jesus said in John 5? "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son . . And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man" (vss. 22 & 27).

i think you are missing some of the connecting dots here. if [b]"justice and divine judgment come directly from the father, who commits al these unto the son, and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the son of man"[/b]i think what you are trying to tell me here is that the son of man has been giving the authority to carry out justice, thus the son of man (which i have come to realise is the holy spirit) is indeed saddled with the responsibility of judgment and justice!!

so what then is the grave mistake if we seem to be saying the same thing?only you have pointed out the bible verses (am so proud of you for fishing out these bible verses )

bari_kade:

So then, because the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are inseparable in love, justice and judgement, I think it's a grave mistake to arrogate just one role or element to just one of them. So, who is the Holy Spirit?

the concept of the trinity is a whole new topic on its own. but then this leads me to some questions of my own.

claiming that the trinity is inseparable and that a part of the trinity cannot play a particular role is like saying the Almighty God and the Holy Spirit were crucified on the cross of calvary along with Jesus Christ, after all they cannot be separated. is that what you are trying to say? that God the father and Holy Spirit walked the earth at the same time? i need clarity on that one.

Everbright:

A preacher analysed it this way:

what about your own analysis?

Aproko:

what about your own analysis?

girlfriend it seems we are operating on the same wave length.

as im about to give a reply i just see ur own reply and it really goes with wat i want to say.

thumps up girl.

u may want to go to the thread "how christains pray" and make ur contributions too. lets encourage these people to open their eyes.

one love

@Aproko,

I continue to enjoy the challenging questions you offer - they help me think and re-think my persuasions on this issue. But I couldn't find a verse for segebee's quote, though. lol.

Aproko:

i think you are missing some of the connecting dots here. if "justice and divine judgment come directly from the father, who commits al these unto the son, and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the son of man"[/b]i think what you are trying to tell me here is that the son of man has been giving the authority to carry out justice, [b]thus the son of man (which i have come to realise is the holy spirit) is indeed saddled with the responsibility of judgment and justice!!

I would have agreed that my connections were wrongly linked if actually there was any verse in the Bible at all that makes the inference that the son of man was Holy Spirit. There's just no verse that makes that connection or inference.

Aproko:

so what then is the grave mistake if we seem to be saying the same thing?only you have pointed out the bible verses (am so proud of you for fishing out these bible verses )

Lol, please don't yet be proud of me - I'm still learning; and so many people on the Forum are far more erudite than me.  

Aproko:

the concept of the trinity is a whole new topic on its own. but then this leads me to some questions of my own.

That's true - maybe one day we might get to discuss the Trinity as well.

Aproko:

claiming that the trinity is inseparable and that a part of the trinity cannot play a particular role is like saying the Almighty God and the Holy Spirit were crucified on the cross of calvary along with Jesus Christ, after all they cannot be separated. is that what you are trying to say? that God the father and Holy Spirit walked the earth at the same time? i need clarity on that one.

That is not the picture I was presenting. Let's look at it this way:

(a) That the Father and the Son are inseparable is how I have come to understand the references to the divine relationship in the Godhead; such as what we read of the Lord's own words in John 8:29 --

    "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone;
    for I do always those things that please him."

(b) That the Father and the Son are distinct is how I've come to understand the fact that the Father is not the Son; nor are either to be confused for the Spirit. It was the Son that was sent (John 8:29); it was the Son as well who suffered on the Cross (Luke 23:46).

(c) That the only time that the Father forsook the Son was when He (Jesus) bore our sin on the Cross (Matt. 27:46). This expressly forbids the idea that the father went to the Cross.

(d) That even at death, this inseparable relationship between the Father and the Son remained unbroken can be understood from the Son's last words to the Father:

      Luke 23:46 - 'And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said,
                            Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:
                            and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.'

Further to this, I understand from Acts 2:27 that the Father would not leave the Son (though it should not therefore be supposed that both the Son and the Father went to the lower regions):

      Act 2:27 - 'Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,
      neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.'

I hope these would be helpful to clarify the point I tried to make earlier?


But someone might ask: where is the Holy Spirit in this divine relationship when the Son went to the Cross for our Redemption?

Just one verse might help us see this for now:  "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Heb. 9:14).

There - through the Spirit, the Son offered Himself spotless unto the Father for our sakes.

Regards.

@ otuwe,

i know we are on the same wave lenght!! have actually been to that thread "how christains pray" and will go back there dont worry.

@ bari_kade,

no where in the bible will you find the son of man expressly mentioned as the holy spirit. but jesus himself made so many references to the son of man that made it obvious he wasn't the son of man!!

i say this because i have noted that when jesus spoke of himself, he says I, i.e, I go to prepare a place for you, I go to the father and ye shall see me no more, verily I say unto you e.t.c, so i'm convinced that when jesus refers to the son of man, he is referring to someone else e.g when the son of man will come, would he find faith on the earth, the list is endless.

besides, the prophecy of the birth of the son of man is in the old testament (i know you can help me fish that one out faster than i can lol), but then again, that prophecy has been confused as the prophecy of the birth of the son of God (would talk more on that one later)

and i'm so relieved you are not one of thsoe that think God was actually cricified too.

@Aproko,

Aproko:

so i'm convinced that when jesus refers to the son of man, he is referring to someone else e.g when the son of man will come, would he find faith on the earth, the list is endless.

Another very good question. In reference to what you've stated about the Son of Man, we just have to look into Scripture to be sure who is meant by that appellation; and we can rest our hearts by gathering our answers from the Word.

The Jews who heard Jesus preach actually asked the question: "who is this Son of man?" (John 12:32). It is amazing that they would still have to ask this question after the Lord Jesus had spoken in clear terms concerning Himself. Let's see a few of these:

John 3: (14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
but have eternal life.

John 8: (28) Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man,
then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself;
but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Are we anymore in doubt as to whom Jesus referred to as the Son of Man? So, you may perhaps understand my amazement as to how the Jews would have again had to ask Him whom He meant. let me quote the passage where that question appears; and then you see how the Lord Jesus did not even bother to repeat His answers to them:

John 12: (32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(33) This he said, signifying what death he should die. (34) The people
answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever:
and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

It is clear that the Son of man actually is the Lord Jesus Christ; but the Jews themselves would not be satisfied with His answers; so He did not even bother to repeat Himself to them in the subsequent verses.

Othe passages where this point is made may be cited:

Matt. 16: (13) When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi,
he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
(16)  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Matt. 12: (40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly;
so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mark 10: (45) For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister,
and to give his life a ransom for many.

We need to ask ourselves the salient question: are all those verses speaking about or pointing to the Holy Spirit? If no, then of whom was the Lord Jesus speaking?

Aproko:

and i'm so relieved you are not one of thsoe that think God was actually cricified too.

In a technical sense, I'm not one of those.

Regards. 

I have had an aunt and an sister bothered for years by the idea that they had blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

I think it is just the devil, mostly now a days trying to play mind games with Christians.

Drusilla:

I have had an aunt and an sister bothered for years by the idea that they had blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

I think it is just the devil, mostly now a days trying to play mind games with Christians.

why arepeople so eager to blame the devil for everything.
the fact we know is that we are stronger than the devil here on on earth cos He doesnt have the cloke we have to operate here on earth so he can never force anybody to do anything thats why He resorts to Temptations

so i dont want to hear anything like its the devils fault here. if u live against the laws (will) of the Almighty then u have sinned against the Holy Spirit whether its the Devil that Made u do it or not

Otuwe,

The devil is real. And tempting believers to kill themselves or give up on God because they have "blasphemed" the Holy Spirit, supposedly, is a work of the devil.

I agree though that too many do not like to truly examine themselves and want instead the fault to lie outside of themselves and the devil is a great convenience, for that.

@otuwe,

otuwe:

so i don't want to hear anything like its the devils fault here. if u live against the laws (will) of the Almighty then u have sinned against the Holy Spirit whether its the Devil that Made u do it or not

If you're not willing to hear anything, even where you are greatly mistaken, then perhaps your points are not worth reading. Having a teachable spirit is one of the virtues of someone being led by the Holy Spirit.

If the devil influences people to live, say and do things contrary to the Lord, then by all means the devil should clearly be named as the culprit and thus defeated by the revealed truth of God's Word.

One thing the devil really loves is to hear people trying to parry with him and deflect their minds to something or someone other than himself (and this is what actually empowers him to wreck havoc in the minds of people). He hates truth; and when you tell the truth, his authority to deceive is weakened and defeated.

Cheers.



@Drusilla, thanks for that response.

bari_kade:

One thing the devil really loves is to hear people trying to parry with him and deflect their minds to something or someone other than himself (and this is what actually empowers him to wreck havoc in the minds of people). He hates truth; and when you tell the truth, his authority to deceive is weakened and defeated.

Bari-Kade,

This is how my sister would be confused. In her mind she would hear terrible things about God but think she said them.

It's hard to explain to people that the devil is not dumb. He knows to say something to you, to make you think, you alone said it.

Jesus made clear that even Peter's rather normal human thought: i.e. I do not want my leader to die.

Was really a thought placed there by the devil.

Thus Jesus rebuked the real culprit. Satan.

Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

@Dru,

Thanks again. Cheers.

Bari-Kade,

Excellent posts explaining the various sins against the Holy Spirit.

bari_kade:

@otuwe,

If you're not willing to hear anything, even where you are greatly mistaken, then perhaps your points are not worth reading. Having a teachable spirit is one of the virtues of someone being led by the Holy Spirit.

If the devil influences people to live, say and do things contrary to the Lord, then by all means the devil should clearly be named as the culprit and thus defeated by the revealed truth of God's Word.

One thing the devil really loves is to hear people trying to parry with him and deflect their minds to something or someone other than himself (and this is what actually empowers him to wreck havoc in the minds of people). He hates truth; and when you tell the truth, his authority to deceive is weakened and defeated.

Cheers.



@Drusilla, thanks for that response.

it seems u didnt understand wat i said or u were to eager to criticize me dat u forgot to read it properly.

now let me ask u, when u r being judged are u going to be pardoned wen u say its the Devil's fault.

what i was trying to explain is that blaming the devil is not an excuse, instead we should strive to be strong to overcome the temptation not relax somewhere and say its the Devils fault, the battle has been faught already and Lucifer has lost so lets just remain strong cos the Almighty has granted us that Grace which is sufficient for us.

AMEN

@otuwe,

If you carefully read me, I'm not one who goes out trying to criticize people, whether or not I agree with them. You simply don't come on board and make statements like this:

otuwe:

why arepeople so eager to blame the devil for everything.
- - -
so i don't want to hear anything like its the devils fault here.

Now that you've tried to explain your input, I may let the matter rest. But then, there are people who are actually seeking answers who need to understand issues; rather than such off-handed statements.

bari_kade:

@otuwe,

If you carefully read me, I'm not one who goes out trying to criticize people, whether or not I agree with them. You simply don't come on board and make statements like this:

Now that you've tried to explain your input, I may let the matter rest. But then, there are people who are actually seeking answers who need to understand issues; rather than such off-handed statements.

thanks dear, i guess i was wrong to make such off-handed statements as u call it.
i promise not to do dat again

Thanks for your understanding; and please pardon my being a bit forward. Cheers.

I've relly learnt a lot from you guys but the question still remains, if sin or rather blasphemy against the Holy spirit is saying He is an unclean spirit or speaking ill of the Holy Spirit, what is the fate of someone like Goodguy who admits having done same before he became born again. Is there no hope for him anymore? I'm thinking that Christ's statement there should not be just taken on the surface, there is a deeper meaning to that statement or what do you think?

bari_kade:

@Aproko,

Another very good question. In reference to what you've stated about the Son of Man, we just have to look into Scripture to be sure who is meant by that appellation; and we can rest our hearts by gathering our answers from the Word.

somehow, i still believe that Isaiah's prophecy in Isaiah 7:14, or Daniel's in Daniel 7,13-14 of the birth of the son of man Immanuel, means the son of man is not Jesus Christ! Immanuel means God with us, while Jesus is the saviour, so i'm still convinced that they are two different people.

the son of man is the one to judge the earth, and jesus spoke about him in John 16:7-14, and since the holy spirit is synonymous with justice, then the holy spirit must be the son of man.

if we read the whole of John 8, I am tempted to say that Jesus tried to tell the Jews and those around him that he is the light of the world (verse 12), so when he goes ahead to say that "when you have lifted up the son of man, then you will know that I am he", I am again convinced that I am he, meant I am the light of the world, and its only in lifting up the son of man/Immanuel/holy spirit would they realise that Jesus was indeed the light of the world.

and why did the jews keep asking who the son of man was? perhaps, it is because they knew jesus christ wasn't the son of man, and they were curious as to the identity of that son of man jesus spoke so much about.

i hope i have been able to state my point as clearly as you always state yours

@Aproko,

Aproko:

somehow, i still believe that Isaiah's prophecy in Isaiah 7:14, or Daniel's in Daniel 7,13-14 of the birth of the son of man Immanuel, means the son of man is not Jesus Christ! Immanuel means God with us, while Jesus is the saviour, so i'm still convinced that they are two different people.

Well, if you had carefully considered those texts (which you most probably have), you'll find indeed that what is described there are features which point to none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.

First, let's quote them in context:

Isaiah 7:14-16
⁽¹⁴⁾Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive,
and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. ⁽¹⁵⁾Butter and honey shall he
eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. ⁽¹⁶⁾For before the child
shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest
shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Daniel 7:13-14
(13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the
clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
(14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations,
and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall
not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Now please note the highlighted words and ask if they point to the Holy Spirit or to the Lord Jesus Christ in His Humanity. Let's look at a few of these:

#1. 'a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son' (Isa. 7:14)
Who was conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary? (see also Isa. 9:6; Matt. 1:21-23; Rom. 9:5)

#2. 'Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil' (Isa. 7:15)
Two things here: (a) he shall 'eat' - a quality of humanity (Luke 7:34 - 'the Son of Man is come eating and drinking'); (b) he may know to 'refuse evil' - in reference to the temptation in Matt. 4:1-11. You cannot apply these features to the Holy Spirit; for He was not the One who was incarnated or tempted by the Devil - it was rather Jesus who was tempted in the flesh (Matt. 4:1 and Heb. 2:18).

#3. 'before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good' (Isa. 7:16)
The Holy Spirit was never called a "child" - and if you read Isa. 9:6, you'll see that this reference is to the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

Aproko:

the son of man is the one to judge the earth, and jesus spoke about him in John 16:7-14, and since the holy spirit is synonymous with justice, then the holy spirit must be the son of man.

John 16:7-14 does not say at all that the Holy Spirit is the Judge or even that He will execute Judgement. Rather, it says that the Holy Spirit shall do three things: (a) He shall reprove the world (of sin, righteousness and judgement - vs.9-11); (b) He shall guide believers into all truth (vs. 13); and (c) He shall glorify the Lord Jesus (vs. 14). In none of those was the Holy Spirit addressed as "the Son of Man".

Further, we know that it is the Lord Jesus Christ as Son of Man who will judge - and this is consistently spoken of in the Bible:

a) the Judge is the Man appointed and raised from the dead:
Act 17:31 - "Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

b) the Judge is the Son unto whom the Father hath committed all
John 5:22 - "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son."

c) the Judge in the Second Coming is the Lord who will judge:
Jude 14-15 - "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

Matt. 16:27 -- "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his
angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

I Thes. 3:13 -- "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness
before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
with all his saints. "

Rev. 1:7 -- "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

According to Rev. 1:7. Aproko, you know that it was Jesus that was pierced:

"But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side,
and forthwith came there out blood and water. . .And
again another scripture saith, They shall look on him
whom they pierced" - John 19:34 & 37

Aproko:

if we read the whole of John 8, I am tempted to say that Jesus tried to tell the Jews and those around him that he is the light of the world (verse 12), so when he goes ahead to say that "when you have lifted up the son of man, then you will know that I am he", I am again convinced that I am he, meant I am the light of the world, and its only in lifting up the son of man/Immanuel/holy spirit would they realise that Jesus was indeed the light of the world.

The Bible doesn't mix them up in that manner. I've already explained that Jesus being lifted up in that chapter clearly alludes to the Crucifixion and nothing else.

Aproko:

and why did the jews keep asking who the son of man was? perhaps, it is because they knew jesus christ wasn't the son of man, and they were curious as to the identity of that son of man jesus spoke so much about.

The simple reason was that they refused to heed His answer which He had repeatedly given. That was the characteristic response the Jews gave to His words in His earthly ministry; and it was in that regards that He reminded them of Isaiah's prophecy concerning them:

Matt. 13:14&15
"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

Although he had mentioned many times previously, the Jews continued to reject His word and belaboured the question.

Aproko:

i hope i have been able to state my point as clearly as you always state yours

Lol, you really have - and I appreciate that.