₦airaland Forum

TAO11:
Even Igbos too?? Hehehe! God is wonderful.

Everyone somehow need Oduduwa to validate their culture. Who no like better thing?

Lots and lots of ignorance being pumped in here. Touching on only two of the misinformation here, viz. (1)Igbo-Ukwu bronzes and (2)The Ogane who resides in the “east”:

(1) The archaeologist who worked on the Igbo-Ukwu ‘bronzes’ was Professor Thurstan Shaw.

Due to his work in the years 1959-60, the Igbo-Ukwu ‘bronzes’ is still thought, among common folks, to pre-date the Ife ‘bronzes’. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Such assumptions among common folks are terribly mistaken because the early dates initially associated with the Igbo-Ukwu 'bronzes' are now regarding as misleading by experts — including Professor Thurstan Shaw himself.

At the minimum, the radio-carbon dates initially attributed to the Igbo-Ukwu ‘bronzes’ are now noted to be due to erroneous exaggeration, and are therefore not absolute, not final, and not conclusive.

To quote the words of Professor Thurstan Shaw himself in a later publication in relation to the Igbo-Ukwu artefacts, he sums up and concludes as follows:

“SUMMARY: In the discussion of the reliance which should be placed on the Igbo-Ukwu radiocarbon dates, it is necessary to make certain that what evidence we have is correctly used. The precise locations of the samples used for dating are recalled and possible sources of error discussed. Consideration is given to the arguments for a date later than that suggested by the radiocarbon dates, stemming from the state of preservation of the textiles, the character of the beads, the pottery evidence, analogies with the presumed dating of Ife and Benin, the quantity and the source of the copper, and what is known of pre-European trading patterns in West Africa. The latter is probably the most serious objection to a very early date, but the question will only be settled with the acquisition of more archaeological evidence.”

Reference: Thurstan Shaw, “Those Igbo-Ukwu Radiocarbon Dates: Facts, Fictions and Probabilities”, The Journal of African History, Vol. 16, No. 4, (1975), p.517.

Furthermore and in relation to the foregoing, I should clarify and caution that the phrase: the earliest date obtained from the dated Ife ‘bronzes‘ is not one and the same thing as the phrase: the earliest date possibly obtainable from any of the not-yet-dated Ife ‘bronzes’.

This foregoing clarification is of utmost relevance here because “much of the bronze/brass art of Ife has not been dated.” — S.A. Akintoye, “A History of the Yoruba People”, 2010, p.52.

Moreover, the bronze casting tradition of the Yorubas is not isolated or restricted to the Ife subgroup. Later finds in the course of the 1900s came to prove that the ancient bronze casting art also existed in other parts of Yorubaland such as: Owo, Obo-Aiyegunle (in Northern Ekiti), Ijebu-Ode, etc.
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(2) Talking about the Ogané of the early Portuguese account who is noted to be “the most powerful monarch” in our part of the world, and who lived in the “east”.

Despite the description of “east” in this account, I am still unaware of any historian (past or present) who identified this monarch as an Igbo king.

From the beginning of the twentieth century, scholars had no reason to doubt that this Ogane of the Portuguese account is none other than the Ooni of Ife.

(see e.g. Stoll 1902:161-166; Roth 1903:6n1; Marquart 1913:52; Talbot 1926:1:155-156, 281-282, 3:573; Schurhammer 1928:28-30; Bradbury 1964:151, Paula Marti 1960:63, Mauny 1961:182; Akinjogbin 1967:41-43; Law 1973:17-19; Willett 1973:137-138; Obayemi 1976:247; Horton 1979: ; Akintoye 2010:141-142; among others).

Historians have maintained for, well valid and factual reasons, that the description of “east” in the account is — rather than literal — of a religious significance.

The justification for this comes from the fact that every received detail about the Ogane in the account lines up perfectly only with the Ooni of Ife among all monarchs throughout the Gulf of Guinea.

Moreover, Ife is well-known among the ancient cultures of our region (at least west of the Niger River) by the religious epithet of: “the place from where the sun rises” — Ife Oodaiye, ibi ojumo tii mo wa.

(i) This ancient religious epithet of Ife as, the place of the rising sun remains well-known even till date by every typical Yoruba person.

(ii) This ancient religious epithet of Ife was also well-known in Benin Kingdom at least up to the 1920s.

This comes the fact that Oba Eweka(II) informed visiting H.L. Ward-Price that every morning at dawn, he faces the rising sun while observing certain supplications to his great lord (Oghene) who lives in Ife.

(iv) This religious epithet of Ife is also found to be well-known in today’s Republic of Benin as Robin Horton’s citation of Maupoil, B’s “La Geomancie” 1943 publication shows below:

“Maupoil in his classic account of Dahomean religion, tells once more of a strong association of Ife with dawn and the east. He adds that although in this area the association is one that actually corresponds with geographical reality, in the minds of the people it is not so much a summary of geographical observation as a highly appropriate piece of symbolism. For Dahomeans, dawn and the east are in this context first and foremost symbols of certain admired attributes of Ife.”

(iv) This religious epithet of Ife was also recorded in by David Hinderer during his missionary visit to Ife in the 1850s. He wrote:

“Ife is famous as being the seat of idolatory; all the multiple idols of this part of the country are said to emanate from the town; from there the sun and moon rises where they are buried in the ground, and all people of this country and even white men sprung from this town”.
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.
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In summary: Scholars have from the beginning identified this Ogane (Oghene) as the Ooni of Ife. The only notable exception to this identification used to be A.F.C. Ryder who in 1965 hypothesized the geographical north-eastern direction, rather than the geographical western direction of Ife.

Although as Elizabeth A. Isichei has confirmed, Ryder later abandoned this solitary and radical idea in his 1969 work entitled “Benin and the Europeans”.

In sum, every redoubtable scholar and historian of precolonial Nigeria today has no iota of doubt in identifying the Ogane of the Portuguese account as the Ooni of Ife.

See the attached screenshot from page 47 of Adam Knobler’s (2016) work for a very recent apt summary of this identification.

cc: LegendHero, Sammy07, winer900

You really are desperate to twist truth.

Ife was originally populated by a subgroup of Igbos, even the Ooni affairms this.

Ogane remains an Igbo priest king that ruled from igboukwu, An ancient burial chamber of a flamboyant powerful king was excavated in that same igboukwu

Ife artifacts remains very young compared to igboukwu, Every bit of culture possed by Yoruba was received from Igbos through Bini and igala, The Afa system of divinition included

When the Bini were flexing their military might they never looked east simply cos they knew who ruled there....they preferred to rampage through yoruba lands as they pleased

Twisting history with lies and half truths will not change what is

MinorityOpinion:
I mean the pictures are self explantory enough.

Ifa > Afa

Very stupid analysis, Afa divinition was clearly given to The igala, Bini and Yoruba by Igbos

OfoIgbo:
Are you trying to claim that Nri-Igbo was not the cultural, political and spiritual overlord of Benin? Is that what you don't believe?

Or are you saying that the Ooni of Ife was wrong in asserting Igbo influence was much in evidence, in days gone by?

Please indicate which of the above questions, you have problem with. It is so easy to just fire a scattering shot, without pinpointing what you have an issue with.

Nna leave this people , It's crystal clear that Igbo and in particular NRI played a prominent role in early Bini, NRI priests were outstanding medicine men.....Bini JuJu and all its dread was recieved from Nri

Hellraiser77:
Very stupid analysis, Afa divinition was clearly given to The igala, Bini and Yoruba by Igbos

Okay I understand your history has no relevance unless you attach by force to Yorubas Benin or igalas. Continue

Etinosa1234:
First question...it is only written that the nri had only spiritual influence... politically, military and culturally they were useless
Second question.... Rulers are not historians...... If u believe what Ooni said because he's a ruler, then I guess u should also believe Nnamdi Azikiwe and wike claim that they migrated from Benin...
. after all they are all rulers

NRI was never about military might, they were not interested in politics, They were revered mystics and cultural custodians......Bini and all its juju was received and administred by NRI....At a point they dispersed for various reasons returning towards their homelands like the aniomas in delta, the oguta of imo state, the Onitsha and obosi of Anambra state....this were returning NRI priests, Awka blacksmiths and other traders that made their way to Bini

MinorityOpinion:
See the coronation of oba of Benin, no mention of an Nri priest. Who is ogane sef, he might be igala man that colonised igbos

Because Igbos became less interested in History over time does not change facts, Ife was administered by Igbos before Oduduwa arrived from wherever..... Oduduwa as a name has Igbo origins......Your history is 80% folk lore

Hellraiser77:
Because Igbos became less interested in History over time does not change facts, Ife was administered by Igbos before Oduduwa arrived from wherever..... Oduduwa as a name has Igbo origins......Your history is 80% folk lore

Tell me about your history then? You that have no history

LegendHero:
You are confused. What is your said Afa origin? Can you tell me how NRI founded the said Afa?

Don’t play this game with me coz you’ll get burnt if I actually want to just embark on trying to find the link of the true first oracle name and it’s origin.

One thing is 80-90% certain, other southern tribes in Nigeria derive their oracle from one major origin coz the name of their oracle sound too alike and sensible historians will find a clue.

Oracle name of some tribes:
Mina - Ipha
Fon - Fa
Yoruba - Ifa
Igala - Ifa
Nupe - Eba
Idoma- Epa/Eba
Edo - Iha
Urhobo - Epha
Isoko- Eva
Igbo - Afa/Efa/E(p)ha

Now can you see Igbo has three types, now let’s us check the distinct Igbo name.

Now see the Igbo sub-group and what they call their oracle:
Agbor- Efa
Onicha- Afa
Nri - Afa
Nsukka- Eha
Mbiase - Afa

Can you see even from a layman reasoning, it’s evident the name change among Igbos shows that they actually don’t own the said Ifa and it’s as a result of borrowing because the name changes and they don’t have a unique name.

Now imagine we just try to delve into this matter further, we might just get the origin of the Efa/Afa in Igbo to know how they came about the name.

Cc: MinorityOpinion

See reasoning
You are too close minded to have this arguement

Afa divinition precedes Anything Yoruba, no matter how you try to paint it, yoruba just took it and blew it out of proportion and even worships it, Afa in Igbo culture is a just a tool to call on the eternal witness

Yoruba culture is not only very young, it's also full of laughable tales that no sensible person will believe

OfoIgbo:
I don't believe what I am reading here. This is one of the dumbest ways to ever prove lack of ownership.

For your information, when it comes to Nri-Igbo market days, There are Eke, Oye, Afo and Nkwo. For some Igbos Oye is ORIE. For my Nri people and people around the Awka axis, Afo is AVO
Now the fact that there are different ways of pronouncing the market days in Igboland, have never ever removed the ownership of those market deities from the Nris.
Even Benin or Igala people who use the same market days, will never even bring this line of argument.

AFA or AVA is a huge pillar in our ancient traditional spirituality, and even the neutral Portuguese reported that the Eze Nri was like a Pope figure to everyone around the vicinity of Benin, which by the way, included Ife, as Ife's distance to Benin is shorter than Nri's distance to Benin.
And you seriously think the Pope of our traditional spirituality will be borrowing AFA from Ife.

In Roman catholic parlance, it is just like saying that the Vatican borrowed (or learnt) the Angelus from Ragnar's Scandanavia. It's not possible. Rather, it is the other way round, Catholicism in the Scandinavia, arrived from the Vatican in Rome.

Don't mind his ignorance

Igala and Bini clearly recieved the Igbo four market days which the Afa devinition is based on, It's always 4(ano)

MinorityOpinion:
You are a liar, who is Eze Nri? Eze system was introduced by lugard, there was nothing like Kings in igbo land.

You seem to be the most ignorant in this whole argument

MinorityOpinion:
Exactly, there history is not that important, even the British were not interested in it, the first king in igbo land was during the colonial era. Not to even talk about ifa or something, the igala were their priest which means the priest were the diviners. The Portuguese article that he was using as back up didn't say much about Igbo or the f.ucking Eze Nri he was talking about, it was talking about cross(which resemble the Christians own) the ogane (who was a priest) always give to Benin Kings, the article mention East of Benin, if you check this picture very well ifa was said to be brought by gogo from Yoruba Town, same Benin East.

Their history is not interesting and there is almost no information about them except how other smaller tribes conquered them..

Cc legendhero, Sammy07, ThatFairGuy, Etinosa1234, obalatule, babaramota1980

Igbo history is not mates with any other southern Nigeria history, it's so ancient the British didn't know where to start....Yoruba history is very young and inaccurate

OfoIgbo:
Before Lugard came, there was already the Eze Nri stool which predates the Norman rule of England starting from 1066.
There was already the Obi of Onitsha and the Eze Aro, Igwe Nnewi royal stools.

By the time Lugard came, the Nris reported that there were already about 60+ royal stools in Igboland. Nris knew this, because it was Nri priests that installed every single one of those Ezes and Igwes and Obis of Igbo towns, and Obas of Benin and Attahs of Igala.

But the majority of the Igbo towns were still being ruled by elders and the ozo society.

Nri was ancient and devine, their priests got as far as modern day Lagos as medicine men alongside Bini fighters

MinorityOpinion:
Tell me about your history then? You that have no history

My history is from 3000bc and barring any records it started fading away like all ancient cultures, But one thing you should learn today is that Igbos are the not your mates, the Ooni of Ife defies all prejudices to say it

MinorityOpinion:
Tell me about your history then? You that have no history

My history is from 3000bc and barring any records it started fading away like all ancient cultures, But one thing you should learn today is that Igbos are the not your mates, the Ooni of Ife defied all prejudices to say it

MinorityOpinion:
Okay I understand your history has no relevance unless you attach by force to Yorubas Benin or igalas. Continue

But your history is clearly pure fabrication, No southern tribe in Nigeria can tell it's history truly without relating it to other southern tribes, They all share common history and was well aware of it until recently......you in particular is not a bright person at all

Hellraiser77:
Don't mind his ignorance

Igala and Bini clearly recieved the Igbo four market days which the Afa devinition is based on, It's always 4(ano)

Nwanne, you are even going way deeper, and I doubt their understanding will be able to handle these things.

By the way, where are IkwerrePikin, Minorityopinion, Osaze007, helinues, seunmsg ?

I hope you all are learning. In the future if you want to start your usual cultural p*ssy-sniffing and d*ck-measuring, leave Nri or Igbo out of it.
Just stick with your Benin-Yoruba tingz. You can take Ikwerre and Ogba with you, as they seem to have shown immense unintelligence in self-knowledge.

OfoIgbo:
Nwanne, you are even going way deeper, and I doubt their understanding will be able to handle these things.

By the way, where are IkwerrePikin, Minorityopinion, Osaze007, helinues, seunmsg ?

I hope you all are learning. In the future if you want to start your usual cultural p*ssy-sniffing and d*ck-measuring, leave Nri or Igbo out of it.
Just stick with your Benin-Yoruba tingz. You can take Ikwerre and Ogba with you, as they seem to have shown immense unintelligence in self-knowledge.

I can forgive their ignorance, Igbos history doesn't deal on fictitious and badly concocted stories to boost ego like them

Hellraiser77:
[s]You really are desperate to twist truth.

Ife was originally populated by a subgroup of Igbos, even the Ooni affairms this.

Ogane remains an Igbo priest king that ruled from igboukwu, An ancient burial chamber of a flamboyant powerful king was excavated in that same igboukwu

Ife artifacts remains very young compared to igboukwu, Every bit of culture possed by Yoruba was received from Igbos through Bini and igala, The Afa system of divinition included

When the Bini were flexing their military might they never looked east simply cos they knew who ruled there....they preferred to rampage through yoruba lands as they pleased

Twisting history with lies and half truths will not change what is[/s]

Please tell me why I should engage you when you can see clearly that I cite historians to substantiate my statements, while you on the other hand cite your imaginations.

You really need to come up with a way of convincing me on why you should be taken seriously. Thanks.

As a side note, the Igbos and their ‘neighbors’ did have engagements contrary to your imagination. You just have to pick up a history book, and give up imagining history. Also, the Yorubas and their Bini neighbors also had engagements. ‘Fun Fact’: Did you know that wars are a natural part of human history??

PS: I hope you won’t return here to say I’m mArGiNaLiZiNg you.

Cheers!

TAO11:
Please tell me why I should engage you when it is obvious that I historians to substantiate my statements, while you cite your imaginations.

Convince me please on why you should be taken seriously. Thanks.

You are not citing any historian, you simply modified facts to suit your narrative, All you posited where balderdash that holds no water, Igbo ukwu artifacts precedes Ife by half a millennia #Fact

Hellraiser77:
My history is from 3000bc and barring any records it started fading away like all ancient cultures, But one thing you should learn today is that Igbos are the not your mates, the Ooni of Ife defied all prejudices to say it

If I were to follow the pic, it means igbos migrated from Ife, that is Ife is their home, then ifa travelled from Ife to igbo land.

Hellraiser77:
You seem to be the most ignorant in this whole argument

that did not change the fact lord lugard introduced Eze system to igbo land

MinorityOpinion:
that did not change the fact lord lugard introduced Eze system to igbo land

Yes just like he introduced Oba kingship and Yoruba language to you

TAO11:
Please tell me why I should engage you when clearly I cite historians to substantiate my statements, while you on the other hand cite your imaginations.

Convince me please on why you should be taken seriously. Thanks.

PS: I hope you won’t turn around to say I’m mArGiNaLiZiNg you.

Don't mind him, the only thing they have is Eze Nri in the whole of their history, let them chest beat in peace on it.

MinorityOpinion:
If I were to follow the pic, it means igbos migrated from Ife, that is Ife is their home, then ifa travelled from Ife to igbo land.

A single sub-group of Igbos lived in IFE and they birthed the modern yoruba

Hellraiser77:
Yes just like he introduced Oba kingship and Yoruba language to you

This is where a voice note is important, are you that dumb? The only recognised cities with sophisticated Kings and system of government in the South are both Benin and Oyo and other Yoruba Towns before colonization.

TAO11:
Even Igbos too?? Hehehe! God is wonderful.

Everyone somehow need Oduduwa to validate their culture. Who no like better thing?

Lots and lots of ignorance being pumped in here. Touching on only two of the misinformation here, viz. (1)Igbo-Ukwu bronzes and (2)The Ogane who resides in the “east”:

(1) The archaeologist who worked on the Igbo-Ukwu ‘bronzes’ was Professor Thurstan Shaw.

Due to his work in the years 1959-60, the Igbo-Ukwu ‘bronzes’ is still thought, among common folks, to pre-date the Ife ‘bronzes’. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Such assumptions among common folks are terribly mistaken because the early dates initially associated with the Igbo-Ukwu 'bronzes' are now regarding as misleading by experts — including Professor Thurstan Shaw himself.

At the minimum, the radio-carbon dates initially attributed to the Igbo-Ukwu ‘bronzes’ are now noted to be due to erroneous exaggeration, and are therefore not absolute, not final, and not conclusive.

To quote the words of Professor Thurstan Shaw himself in a later publication in relation to the Igbo-Ukwu artefacts, he sums up and concludes as follows:

“SUMMARY: In the discussion of the reliance which should be placed on the Igbo-Ukwu radiocarbon dates, it is necessary to make certain that what evidence we have is correctly used. The precise locations of the samples used for dating are recalled and possible sources of error discussed. Consideration is given to the arguments for a date later than that suggested by the radiocarbon dates, stemming from the state of preservation of the textiles, the character of the beads, the pottery evidence, analogies with the presumed dating of Ife and Benin, the quantity and the source of the copper, and what is known of pre-European trading patterns in West Africa. The latter is probably the most serious objection to a very early date, but the question will only be settled with the acquisition of more archaeological evidence.”

Reference: Thurstan Shaw, “Those Igbo-Ukwu Radiocarbon Dates: Facts, Fictions and Probabilities”, The Journal of African History, Vol. 16, No. 4, (1975), p.517.

Furthermore and in relation to the foregoing, I should clarify and caution that the phrase: the earliest date obtained from the dated Ife ‘bronzes‘ is not one and the same thing as the phrase: the earliest date possibly obtainable from any of the not-yet-dated Ife ‘bronzes’.

This foregoing clarification is of utmost relevance here because “much of the bronze/brass art of Ife has not been dated.” — S.A. Akintoye, “A History of the Yoruba People”, 2010, p.52.

Moreover, the bronze casting tradition of the Yorubas is not isolated or restricted to the Ife subgroup. Later finds in the course of the 1900s came to prove that the ancient bronze casting art also existed in other parts of Yorubaland such as: Owo, Obo-Aiyegunle (in Northern Ekiti), Ijebu-Ode, etc.
.
.
.
(2) Talking about the Ogané of the early Portuguese account who is noted to be “the most powerful monarch” in our part of the world, and who lived in the “east”.

Despite the description of “east” in this account, I am still unaware of any historian (past or present) who identified this monarch as an Igbo king.

From the beginning of the twentieth century, scholars had no reason to doubt that this Ogane of the Portuguese account is none other than the Ooni of Ife.

(see e.g. Stoll 1902:161-166; Roth 1903:6n1; Marquart 1913:52; Talbot 1926:1:155-156, 281-282, 3:573; Schurhammer 1928:28-30; Bradbury 1964:151, Paula Marti 1960:63, Mauny 1961:182; Akinjogbin 1967:41-43; Law 1973:17-19; Willett 1973:137-138; Obayemi 1976:247; Horton 1979: ; Akintoye 2010:141-142; among others).

Historians have maintained for, well valid and factual reasons, that the description of “east” in the account is — rather than literal — of a religious significance.

The justification for this comes from the fact that every received detail about the Ogane in the account lines up perfectly only with the Ooni of Ife among all monarchs throughout the Gulf of Guinea.

Moreover, Ife is well-known among the ancient cultures of our region (at least west of the Niger River) by the religious epithet of: “the place from where the sun rises” — Ife Oodaiye, ibi ojumo tii mo wa.

(i) This ancient religious epithet of Ife as, the place of the rising sun remains well-known even till date by every typical Yoruba person.

(ii) This ancient religious epithet of Ife was also well-known in Benin Kingdom at least up to the 1920s.

This comes from the fact that Oba Eweka(II) informed visiting H.L. Ward-Price that every morning at dawn, he faces the rising sun while observing certain supplications to his great lord (Oghene) who lives in Ife.

(iv) This religious epithet of Ife is also found to be well-known in today’s Republic of Benin as Robin Horton’s citation of Maupoil, B’s “La Geomancie” 1943 publication shows below:

“Maupoil in his classic account of Dahomean religion, tells once more of a strong association of Ife with dawn and the east. He adds that although in this area the association is one that actually corresponds with geographical reality, in the minds of the people it is not so much a summary of geographical observation as a highly appropriate piece of symbolism. For Dahomeans, dawn and the east are in this context first and foremost symbols of certain admired attributes of Ife.”

(iv) This religious epithet of Ife was also recorded in by David Hinderer during his missionary visit to Ife in the 1850s. He wrote:

“Ife is famous as being the seat of idolatory; all the multiple idols of this part of the country are said to emanate from the town; from there the sun and moon rises where they are buried in the ground, and all people of this country and even white men sprung from this town”.
.
.
.
In summary: Scholars have from the beginning identified this Ogane (Oghene) as the Ooni of Ife. The only notable exception to this identification used to be A.F.C. Ryder who in 1965 hypothesized the geographical north-eastern direction, rather than the geographical western direction of Ife.

Although as Elizabeth A. Isichei has confirmed, Ryder later abandoned this solitary and radical idea in his 1969 work entitled “Benin and the Europeans”.

In sum, every redoubtable scholar and historian of precolonial Nigeria today has no iota of doubt in identifying the Ogane of the Portuguese account as the Ooni of Ife.

See the attached screenshot from page 47 of Adam Knobler’s (2016) work for a very recent apt summary of this identification.

cc: LegendHero, Sammy07, winer900

Welcome TA011, I trust you.

Ofoigbo now you have to learn history from the mighty TAO11.

He will tutor you in such a way that you will denounce every lies your Ezes ever told you.

MinorityOpinion:
Don't mind him, the only thing they have is Eze Nri in the whole of their history, let them chest beat in peace on it.

You are obviously don't know the Eze Aro of Arochukwu ancient kingdom

Hellraiser77:
A single sub-group of Igbos lived in IFE and they birthed the modern yoruba

read what he said, he said they migrated from Ife, that is Ife was their home, then they went to South East to teach the people there Yoruba civilization and the ifa system. Check the complexity of ifa with that nonsense you call afa. Ifa is superior anyway. You shot yourself in the foot.

MinorityOpinion:
This is where a voice note is important, are seriously that dumb? The only recognised cities with sophisticated Kings and system of government in the South are both Benin and Oyo and other Yoruba Towns before colonization.

Baby kingdoms of yesterday, They are no match for a civilization from 3000bc....Igbos have already passed the peak of their influence by atleast 1000 yrs before the Europeans came