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Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please - Politics (2) - Nairaland

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Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by cap28: 1:27pm On Feb 28, 2011
DeeJay20:


ROFLAMO!!! easy CAP28 dont allow people's Selective Myopia upset you!!!


sorry bros, i just get frustrated with the way some people on here reason.

Since when has America - an empire been concerned about such "trivial" things like humanitarianism?  There are countless  incidents of genocide that have occurred around the world in which america REFUSED to get invovled in
simply because there was no economic gain to be made - Rwanda springs to mind, it became almost impossible to get america to even agree to go along with a UN resolution which would enable the deployment of troops in order to stop the genocide.

Consider this excerpt from a british mainstream newspaper:

President Bill Clinton's administration knew Rwanda was being engulfed by genocide in April 1994 but buried the information to justify its inaction, according to classified documents made available for the first time.
Senior officials privately used the word genocide within 16 days of the start of the killings, but chose not to do so publicly because the president had already decided not to intervene.

Intelligence reports obtained using the US Freedom of Information Act show the cabinet and almost certainly the president had been told of a planned "final solution to eliminate all Tutsis" before the slaughter reached its peak.

It took Hutu death squads three months from April 6 to murder an estimated 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus and at each stage accurate, detailed reports were reaching Washington's top policymakers.

The documents undermine claims by Mr Clinton and his senior officials that they did not fully appreciate the scale and speed of the killings.

"It's powerful proof that they knew," said Alison des Forges, a Human Rights Watch researcher and authority on the genocide.

The National Security Archive, an independent non-governmental research institute based in Washington DC, went to court to obtain the material.

It discovered that the CIA's national intelligence daily, a secret briefing circulated to Mr Clinton, the then vice-president, Al Gore, and hundreds of senior officials, included almost daily reports on Rwanda. One, dated April 23, said rebels would continue fighting to "stop the genocide, which ,  is spreading south".

Three days later the state department's intelligence briefing for former secretary of state Warren Christopher and other officials noted "genocide and partition" and reported declarations of a "final solution to eliminate all Tutsis".

However, the administration did not publicly use the word genocide until May 25 and even then diluted its impact by saying "acts of genocide".

Ms Des Forges said: "They feared this word would generate public opinion which would demand some sort of action and they didn't want to act. It was a very pragmatic determination."

The administration did not want to repeat the fiasco of US intervention in Somalia, where US troops became sucked into fighting. It also felt the US had no interests in Rwanda, a small central African country with no minerals or strategic value.


William Ferroggiaro, of the National Security Archive, said the system had worked. "Diplomats, intelligence agencies, defence and military officials - even aid workers - provided timely information up the chain," he said.

"That the Clinton administration decided against intervention at any level was not for lack of knowledge of what was happening in Rwanda."

Many analysts and historians fault Washington and other western capitals not just for failing to support the token force of overwhelmed UN peacekeepers but for failing to speak out more forcefully during the slaughter.

Some of the Hutu extremists orchestrating events might have heeded such warnings, they have suggested.

Mr Clinton has apologised for those failures but the declassified documents undermine his defence of ignorance. "The level of US intelligence is really amazing," said Mr Ferroggiaro. "A vast array of information was available."

On a visit to the Rwandan capital, Kigali, in 1998 Mr Clinton apologised for not acting quickly enough or immediately calling the crimes genocide.

In what was widely seen as an attempt to diminish his responsibility, he said: "It may seem strange to you here, especially the many of you who lost members of your family, but all over the world there were people like me sitting in offices, day after day after day, who did not fully appreciate the depth and speed with which you were being engulfed by this unimaginable terror."

A spokesperson for the William Jefferson Clinton Foundation in New York said the allegations would be relayed to the former president.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/mar/31/usa.rwanda

Contrast the way america behaved with regard to a real humanitarian catastrophe with the way they are acting in the case of an unsubstantiated one.

Could they move any faster? I didnt know it was possible to move so quickly in order to impose sanctions or intervene militarily.
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by cap28: 1:54pm On Feb 28, 2011
DeeJay,  when you get a chance listen to american historian, webster tarpley's analysis of what's happening in Libya:

http://tarpley.net/world-crisis-radio/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webster_Tarpley
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by johnie: 6:14pm On Feb 28, 2011
Hilary Clinton at the UN has just announced USD10m humanitarian aid through USAID and dispatch of aid workers to the Tunisian and Egyptian borders of Libya.

US is also proposing a no fly zone over Libya.
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by Kobojunkie: 6:20pm On Feb 28, 2011
Libyans are calling for a No Fly Zone so Ghaddafi does not go back to bombing them again by air.
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by violent(m): 6:50pm On Feb 28, 2011
The US and Britain said on Monday they were looking at establishing a “no-fly” zone across Libya, amid signs that Nato nations were weighing all military options in the crisis.

As Washington and London pressed home demands that Col Muammer Gaddafi should quit power, the White House said a no-fly zone was “an option we are actively considering”.

In London, David Cameron, Britain’s prime minister, told the House of Commons that all measures would be examined to increase pressure on Col Gaddafi to go.

“We do not in any way rule out the use of military assets,” he said.

Mr Cameron added: “We must not tolerate this regime using military force against its own people. In that context, I have asked the Ministry of Defence and the chief of the defence staff to work with our allies on plans for a military no-fly zone.”

The US military was repositioning naval and air forces around Libya, a Pentagon official said, as international demands intensified for an end to Col Gaddafi’s four-decade rule.

“We have planners working and various contingency plans, and I think it is safe to say as part of that we are repositioning forces to be able to provide for that flexibility once decisions are made,” said the Pentagon.

British officials said they were looking at the use of the UK’s sovereign air base in Akrotiri in Cyprus as a launch point for a no-fly mission. “Akrotiri would be very useful if we wanted to deploy Typhoon [Eurofighters],” said an official.

The main fear of western leaders continues to be that Col Gaddafi might find a way to mount bombing raids on opposition forces,

Senior military officials in Washington have been looking at a range of options for military action. These include establishing “safe zones” for people sheltering from the regime, securing ports, airports and oil fields, and providing guarantees for any attempt to set up a new government.

In comments that went beyond previous warnings by the US, Hillary Clinton, secretary of state, said: “We will continue to explore all possible options for action. As we have said, nothing is off the table so long as the Libyan government continues to threaten and kill Libyans.”

Barack Obama, US president, was due later in the day to meet Ban Ki-moon, UN secretary-general, to discuss further diplomatic, legal and other means to put pressure on the government and peel away some of the forces loyal to Col Gaddafi.

UN approval of a no-fly zone would be difficult to secure, given China’s and Russia’s extensive doubts about military intervention. But some western diplomats suggested on Monday that it could be imposed by a coalition of nations outside the Nato remit.

The focus on military options came as Libya looked likely to become the first country ever to be expelled from the UN Human Rights Council. Foreign ministers from the US, Russia, Britain and other states will convene today for a session of the council in Geneva, where they are set to condemn the violence that Col Gaddafi has unleashed on his opponents in recent days.

In a speech to the council on Monday, William Hague, British foreign secretary, said the response to the crisis in Libya both at the UN Security Council and at the Human Rights Council had been remarkable.

“The international community came together in a way which it has not done before, setting aside differences in the face of a challenge to the very notion of what we commonly and instinctively regard as the basic rights of humankind.”

Libya also looks likely to become the first country to be expelled from the UN Human Rights Council.

Foreign ministers from the US, Russia, the UK, Germany and other states convened on Monday for a council session in Geneva, where they condemned the violence that Col Gaddafi has unleashed on his opponents in recent days.

The International Criminal Court prosecutor said on Monday that he hoped to complete a preliminary examination of the violence in Libya in a few days before opening a full investigation.

Over the weekend, the UN Security Council imposed sanctions on Col Gaddafi and his family, and said it wanted Libya’s crackdown on anti-government demonstrators referred to the ICC.

Navi Pillay, UN high commissioner for human rights, on Monday accused a number of governments in the Middle East, including Libya, of “illegal and excessively heavy-handed response” to pro-democracy demonstrations.

“I remind all those concerned that widespread and systematic attacks against the civilian population may amount to crimes under international law,” she told the UN Human Rights Council.

The European Union approved its own set of sanctions on Monday afternoon that go beyond those passed by the UN over the weekend. The sanctions include asset freezes, travel bans and embargoes on weapons and other material, such as tear gas and anti-riot equipment, that could aid in suppressing opposition protesters.

The decision was expected to be made later in the week but has been brought forward to ensure the measures are enforced as soon as possible, diplomats said.

However, officials said they had hit a snag because Italy is opposed to including the Libyan sovereign wealth fund – which owns 3 per cent of Pearson, the FT’s parent company – and other government entities in an asset freeze. Libyan funds own stakes in UniCredit, the Italian bank, and the Juventus football team.
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by violent(m): 8:50pm On Feb 28, 2011
I see this degenerating and turning a lot worse than anyone could anticipate. This move could rally Islamic nations behind Ghadaffi.
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by jumobi1(m): 8:50pm On Feb 28, 2011
Seems the only way the Libyan revolt will succeed with limited bloodshed is if the US truly goes in to help
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by Cougar2: 8:52pm On Feb 28, 2011
gaddafi hasn't covered himself in glory. i sanction a foreign invasion. any leader who deliberately launches death squad on his own people needs to be taught a lesson.
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by violent(m): 8:59pm On Feb 28, 2011
*Cougar*:

gaddafi hasn't covered himself in glory. i sanction a foreign invasion. any leader who deliberately launches death squad on his own people needs to be taught a lesson.

Foreign Invasion will likely cause more chaos for Libyans than Ghadaffi, as the country is easily divided along ethnic lines.

Asides that, it's better for countries such as Egypt to take the lead than the US.

From all indications, it looks as though the US's primary interest could be securing the oil fields located in Libya and most people are likely to think along this line as opposed to actually helping Libyans get rid of a dictator.  Time to go long on oil futures. . a lot of money could be made!
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by jumobi1(m): 9:01pm On Feb 28, 2011
Honestly though, why would any country help without getting anything in return?
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by Cougar2: 9:03pm On Feb 28, 2011
violent:

Foreign Invasion will likely cause more chaos for Libyans than Ghadaffi, as the country is easily divided along ethnic lines.

at least such chaos wouldn't leave 300 civilians dead in one night.


Asides that, it's better for countries such as Egypt to take the lead than the US.

From all indications, it looks as though the US's primary interest could be securing the oil fields located in Libya and most people are likely to think along this line as opposed to actually helping Libyans get rid of a dictator.  Time to go long on oil futures. . a lot of money could be made!

gadaffi brought this on himself. united states didn't advise him to kill his own people. oil fields or no oil fields, i support foreign invasion. tunisia and egypt have gone through this phase, why didn't united states show interest then? bahrain nko? when david cameron and obama were silent about this crisis, libyans blamed them for their non-challant attitude. now they wanna make the move and we are here saying they want to do so because of the oil fields!
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by Sunofgod(m): 9:04pm On Feb 28, 2011
The US already has equipment and personel on route.

Its not a question of if - but a question of when.

Their primary goal is the oil - and their secondary goal is Gadaffi.
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by violent(m): 9:29pm On Feb 28, 2011
jumobi1:

Honestly though, why would any country help without getting anything in return?

because when it is called ''help'' you shouldn't be expecting to get anything in return!
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by Kobojunkie: 9:31pm On Feb 28, 2011
violent:

because when it is called ''help'' you shouldn't be expecting to get anything in return!

Tell me you help your workers without expecting something in return.
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by Meddler(f): 9:41pm On Feb 28, 2011
Really an American Invasion. Please someone should tell me how that will go down with the American ppl. C'mon, America is just recovering from one of the worst economic crisis and you think the Republicans will agree to bring out a dime to support invasion? The speed at which it will be voted down will be faster that the speed of light. Oh America will be going in but not now. Libya still has oil after all. We will just have to wait and see how this plays out.
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by violent(m): 9:48pm On Feb 28, 2011
Kobojunkie:

Tell me you help your workers without expecting something in return.

If you are expecting something in return, then you are rendering a service, quite a different thing from helping out i think.

when david cameron and obama were silent about this crisis, libyans blamed them for their non-challant attitude. now they wanna make the move and we are here saying they want to do so because of the oil fields!

From the look of things, it appears so.  Libya produces one of the finest crude in the world and the EU is dependent on more than 80 per cent of Libyan crude, we can say the same for the US as well, given that the demands for oil continues to surpass it's supply.

A chaos in Libya in turn will be followed by a hike in the prices of oil as evident in previous weeks.  If this situation continues, or worse still, if Gadaffhi makes good on his threat of sabotaging Libyan oil facilities, it's likely to degenerate to another global downtown, which, trust me, is the last thing that US or UK would hope for at the moment.

Of course, I am not ruling out the fact that it's also in the interest of the entire world that evil be stamped out of Libya, the question is, IS this enough for  the Americans and the EU to put billions in military spending and the lives of  hundreds of fine soldiers at stake for this?  when in the end, all they are likely to get back is a disgruntled thanks from Libyans and a pack of a million haters?----of course, the answer lie somewhere else, the oil!
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by Sunofgod(m): 9:51pm On Feb 28, 2011
A regional war in the middle east would be beneficial to the west.

More so to America - it will boost their economy through the 'Military Industrial Complex'

They will happily sell arms to all sides - David Cameron has actually went with arms dealers to the middle east last week taking 'orders'.

Civil War followed by a Regional War and then finally onto World War - Thats what America needs and will get.
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by violent(m): 9:51pm On Feb 28, 2011
Meddler:

Really an American Invasion. Please someone should tell me how that will go down with the American ppl. C'mon, America is just recovering from one of the worst economic crisis and you think the[b] Republicans will agree to bring out a dime to support invasion?[/b] The speed at which it will be voted down will be faster that the speed of light. Oh America will be going in but not now. Libya still has oil after all. We will just have to wait and see how this plays out.

are you kidding?  Republicans are fighters by nature, if an American had died from one of Ghadaffi's shells, Republicans would be calling for Obama's head on a plastic plate.
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by violent(m): 9:56pm On Feb 28, 2011
Sun of god:

A regional war in the middle east would be beneficial to the west.

More so to America - it will boost their economy through the 'Military Industrial Complex'

They will happily sell arms to all sides - David Cameron has actually went with arms dealers to the middle east last week taking 'orders'.

Civil War followed by a Regional War and then finally onto World War - Thats what America needs and will get.


This is not likely to lead to a full scale war, from all probability, there's likely to be some sort of resistance from the Chinese and Russians on this, which is likely to curb the extent of the invasion. Also, i believe rules of engagement is likely to be stringent to ensure that civilians causalities are greatly minimized.

The US and the NATO are likely to be saving some military shells for the big games----Revolution in Saudi, Revolution in Iran, and a North Korean attack on South, these are events likely to lead to a full scale war.
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by Sunofgod(m): 10:02pm On Feb 28, 2011
From what i have seen both Russia and China voted for sanctions against Libya last week.

Gadaffi has apparently armed civilian supporters with arms - therefore they can now be classed as 'Combatant's'

America coined the term 'Collateral Damage' and 'Friendly Fire' - So no matter what attrocities take place they will have their 'Arsss covered'.

Tunisia, Bahrain, Oman, Saudi, Algeria and Egypt are still unsettled matters.
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by Kobojunkie: 10:13pm On Feb 28, 2011
Forgive my earlier question there on helping workers --- I myself am in the middle of that and there ain't no way I am doing it for free in my situation. lol
violent:

If you are expecting something in return, then you are rendering a service, quite a different thing from helping out i think.

Let's not confuse the one kind of help with another. Even in our daily lives, we rate the kind of help we give others. Sometimes, it is free -- other times we do it in hopes we get something in return. Maybe not immediately but we do have that in the back of our minds even as humans sometimes.
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by DeeJay20: 12:11am On Mar 01, 2011
cap28:

DeeJay, when you get a chance listen to american historian, webster tarpley's analysis of what's happening in Libya:

http://tarpley.net/world-crisis-radio/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webster_Tarpley

Thanks Cap28, i shall listen to it, notice how the "so called protester" in Libya are called "Rebels" by
the mainstream media lol,
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by DeeJay20: 12:17am On Mar 01, 2011
Kobojunkie:

Libyans are calling for a No Fly Zone so Ghaddafi does not go back to bombing them again by air.

Libyans are not calling for a No-fly zone, DO U EVEN KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS

Its the British that are pressing the UN for this so called "protect the citizens move"

What i am yet to see is any reporters interviewing Libyans to see what they have to say, This is a Load of Crap,

"A no fly zone" over libya = to UN/NATO/USA/EU FORCES Bombing anything related to the Libyan Military
or Govt at will with the cover to claim it was enforcing security.!!!! IRAQ in the 1990's and Pakistan comes to mind!!!

oh yes and before i forget, they dont fly plans with men inside them now
the have "predator Drones" or Unmanned planes to enforce the "No Fly Zone2
if it comes into effect! is that not a bit**h, Bombing targets from the
comfort of your Air-Conditoned" office on your "Computer Monitor",
Classical "1984" shi***t " War Games!!!!
Re: Should The Us Intervene In Libya? Your Views Please by Mobinga: 4:54am On Mar 01, 2011
Why should they? Stick your business.

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