The Law existed even in the Garden of Eden, for “where there is no law there is no transgression” (Romans 4:15).
Was there transgression in Eden ? Yes.
Was it wrong too for Cain to murder Abel ? Yes.
So there was the Law.
We know about Adam and Eve, but did you know God also warned Cain about sin beforehand, saying,
“If you do well, will you not be accepted ?
And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door.
And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” (Genesis 4:7)
How could there be such a thing as sin if the Law was not in effect at that time ?
Pick any Commandment from God's Law.
Which one would it have been right for Cain to transgress ?
None, just like today.
God's Moral Law, the 10 Commandments, is still in effect today.
Is there sin and transgression today ? Yes.
Therefore, there is God's Law being broken.
The Old Covenant Jewish Law regarding priests, feasts, sacrifices, and rituals like circumcision is not in effect since Jesus sealed the New Covenant in His Blood.
But God's Law is, and has always been, in effect.
And we must keep it by first obeying the 2 Most Important Commandments - to Love God and others as ourself.

awitness41:
The Law existed even in the Garden of Eden, for “where there is no law there is no transgression” (Romans 4:15).
Was there transgression in Eden ? Yes.
Was it wrong too for Cain to murder Abel ? Yes.
So there was the Law.
We know about Adam and Eve, but did you know God also warned Cain about sin beforehand, saying,
“If you do well, will you not be accepted ?
And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door.
And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” (Genesis 4:7)
How could there be such a thing as sin if the Law was not in effect at that time ?
Pick any Commandment from God's Law.
Which one would it have been right for Cain to transgress ?
None, just like today.
God's Moral Law, the 10 Commandments, is still in effect today.
Is there sin and transgression today ? Yes.
Therefore, there is God's Law being broken.
The Old Covenant Jewish Law regarding priests, feasts, sacrifices, and rituals like circumcision is not in effect since Jesus sealed the New Covenant in His Blood.
But God's Law is, and has always been, in effect.
And we must keep it by first obeying the 2 Most Important Commandments - to Love God and others as ourself.

I am sorry, how does any if what you cobbled up here show that God gave what you refer to as the 10 commandments also to Adam in the garden of Eden?

Where is your evidence that all 10 of the first commandments indicated in the Old Covenant Law of Moses, a law that has a total of 613 commandments by the way,were also given to Adam as Law in the garden of Eden, or there after?

Or is it your assumption that everywhere the word Law or rule is used, the 10 first 10 commandments of the Old Covenant are referenced?

God sees you KJ.
Your own username means "money addict".
Who is going to take you seriously, especially your supposed-Scriptural commentary ?

Is it a sin to lie, even today, KJ ?

Yes it is. And you often do.

And when you do, you break Commandment #9.

If you understood anything about the extent of human behaviors that the Commandments actually cover, you'd have good knowledge.

If your want to keep your 613 stuff, go ahead, but nobody is falling for it.

Any even reasonably moral person knows that God's 10 Commandments are in effect today, and that probably includes atheists if you asked them about the last 6 of the 10, especially in regard to murder, adultery, stealing, and lying.

Read Matthew 5, KJ, in a real Bible that actually uses the word "commandment" instead of these late-model baby-"bibles" made for the unsuspecting, and also for wannabe-sinners, that use the word "command" every chance they get, in order to pretend that God's Commandments are no longer in effect.

In Matthew 5, Jesus assures us of the following (below), and then goes on to expand the true meaning of "do not murder" (Commandment #6) and "do not commit adultery" (Commandment #7). Are those Commandments ? Yes. Did Cain break #6 ? Yes. Thus, the Law existed, just as Jesus refers to the "Law" below.

Matthew 5:17-22, 27-30 (NKJV - New King James Version)

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to]sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

You might not want to keep God's Moral Law, KJ, but you will perish if you do not.
God's Grace is only for those who agree with Jesus, not those who work against Him.

awitness41:
God sees you KJ.
Your own username means "money addict".
Who is going to take you seriously, especially your supposed-Scriptural commentary ?

Is it a sin to lie, even today, KJ ?

Yes it is. And you often do.

And when you do, you break Commandment #9.

If you understood anything about the extent of human behaviors that the Commandments actually cover, you'd have good knowledge.

If your want to keep your 613 stuff, go ahead, but nobody is falling for it.

Any even reasonably moral person knows that God's 10 Commandments are in effect today, and that probably includes atheists if you asked them about the last 6 of the 10, especially in regard to murder, adultery, stealing, and lying.

Read Matthew 5, KJ, in a real Bible that actually uses the word "commandment" instead of these late-model baby-"bibles" made for the unsuspecting, and also for wannabe-sinners, that use the word "command" every chance they get, in order to pretend that God's Commandments are no longer in effect.

In Matthew 5, Jesus assures us of the following (below), and then goes on to expand the true meaning of "do not murder" (Commandment #6) and "do not commit adultery" (Commandment #7). Are those Commandments ? Yes. Did Cain break #6 ? Yes. Thus, the Law existed, just as Jesus refers to the "Law" below.

Matthew 5:17-22, 27-30 (NKJV - New King James Version)

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to]sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

You might not want to keep God's Moral Law, KJ, but you will perish if you do not.
God's Grace is only for those who agree with Jesus, not those who work against Him.

Try to pay close attention to your own claims so you dont keep arguing meaninglessly.

You created a thread suggesting that all 10 of the first 10 commandments given by God to the children of Israel was also given by God to Adam in the garden of Israel, and I am simply asking you to show,in correhent speak mind you, that indeed the first 10 were given to Adam in the garden.

Kobojunkie:
I am sorry, how does any if what you cobbled up here show that God gave what you refer to as the 10 commandments also to Adam in the garden of Eden?

Where is your evidence that all 10 of the first commandments indicated in the Old Covenant Law of Moses, a law that has a total of 613 commandments by the way,were also given to Adam as Law in the garden of Eden, or there after?

Or is it your assumption that everywhere the word Law or rule is used, the 10 first 10 commandments of the Old Covenant are referenced?

that is how they twist the scriptures for reasons best known to them...

Trash as always

awitness41:
The Law existed even in the Garden of Eden, for “where there is no law there is no transgression” (Romans 4:15).
Was there transgression in Eden ? Yes.
Was it wrong too for Cain to murder Abel ? Yes.
So there was the Law.
We know about Adam and Eve, but did you know God also warned Cain about sin beforehand, saying,
“If you do well, will you not be accepted ?
And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door.
And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” (Genesis 4:7)
How could there be such a thing as sin if the Law was not in effect at that time ?
Pick any Commandment from God's Law.
Which one would it have been right for Cain to transgress ?
None, just like today.
God's Moral Law, the 10 Commandments, is still in effect today.
Is there sin and transgression today ? Yes.
Therefore, there is God's Law being broken.
The Old Covenant Jewish Law regarding priests, feasts, sacrifices, and rituals like circumcision is not in effect since Jesus sealed the New Covenant in His Blood.
But God's Law is, and has always been, in effect.
And we must keep it by first obeying the 2 Most Important Commandments - to Love God and others as ourself.

Tell it on! Tell it!

Tell it on the mountain, over the seas and everywhere!

"Before the world began, The Law was there"

Kobojunkie:
I am sorry, how does any if what you cobbled up here show that God gave what you refer to as the 10 commandments also to Adam in the garden of Eden?

He showed it, see it if thou haveth eyes!

Kobojunkie:

Where is your evidence that all 10 of the first commandments indicated in the Old Covenant Law of Moses, a law that has a total of 613 commandments by the way,were also given to Adam as Law in the garden of Eden, or there after?

He is simply saying that God's Laws where up and running even then.

And remember, if you can, that it was during a period of time when offence/sins were still in growing.

Thus The Law "Actions not yet born can not be Prescribed"!

So The Law was not as many as the 613 for the heathens were still learning to be heathens and people were still learning to be evil.

Kobojunkie:

Or is it your assumption that everywhere the word Law or rule is used, the 10 first 10 commandments of the Old Covenant are referenced?

He is simply presenting that The Law was there at the beginning!

Ever8090:
that is how they twist the scriptures for reasons best known to them...

Hurt are you!

The Truth which sets men free is most often The Truth they do not want to hear!

I picked interest in your post due to your username "Witness"
The laws (Commandments) was never God's plan in the beginning, it was added after man's fall {Galatians 3:19} if Adam and Eve never rebelled against God mankind wouldn't have any need of any commandments.
Adam was God's son just like Jesus {Luke 3:38; John 3:16} all he needed to do is imitate his heavenly father as a beloved child in all things {Ephesians 5:1} and there wouldn't be any need for distrust leading to numerous laws later! Galatians 3:17

May you have PEACE!

awitness41:
The Law existed even in the Garden of Eden, for “where there is no law there is no transgression” (Romans 4:15).
Was there transgression in Eden ? Yes.
Was it wrong too for Cain to murder Abel ? Yes.
So there was the Law.
We know about Adam and Eve, but did you know God also warned Cain about sin beforehand, saying,
“If you do well, will you not be accepted ?
And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door.
And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” (Genesis 4:7)
How could there be such a thing as sin if the Law was not in effect at that time ?
Pick any Commandment from God's Law.
Which one would it have been right for Cain to transgress ?
None, just like today.
God's Moral Law, the 10 Commandments, is still in effect today.
Is there sin and transgression today ? Yes.
Therefore, there is God's Law being broken.
The Old Covenant Jewish Law regarding priests, feasts, sacrifices, and rituals like circumcision is not in effect since Jesus sealed the New Covenant in His Blood.
But God's Law is, and has always been, in effect.
And we must keep it by first obeying the 2 Most Important Commandments - to Love God and others as ourself.

Loud it out brother, Loud it Out!

In the Beginning was the Word and where there is the Word there is Law, All of the Laws of God, are His Word, there is no Word without Law, nor Law without the Word, they are One and the Same!

All Live by the Law, (the Word) hence "man doth not live by bread only, but by every Word(Law) that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Thus All Lived and Live by the Law even from the very beginning!

This is the Truth even if man doth not like to hear it!

This is the truth. Sadly, many do not have this knowledge and are unwilling to learn either.

Romans 4:15 is a fascinating passage. What the Ten Commandments haters don't know is that for everytime they claimed that this law has been abolished, they're invariably saying that they have no sin. In other word, there's no sin in the world... "For where there's no law, there's no sin".

No human government functions without established laws. And it is also common knowledge that those who keep these laws, the law keeps them. Those who break the law, the law breaks them. But surprisingly, how some people thinks that God in His infinite wisdom can't figure out what puny man in his own limited understanding knows, still beats me, honestly.

Splinz:
This is the truth. Sadly, many do not have this knowledge and are unwilling to learn either.

They have the knowledge but they love sinning and do not want it removed from their souls.

Therefore, they resist and refuse calls which direct them to remove sins from themselves!

Dtruthspeaker:


They have the knowledge but they love sinning and do not want it removed from their souls.

Therefore, they resist and refuse calls which direct them to remove sins from themselves!

To my brothers in Christ - Dtruthspeaker, truespeak, Splinz - I thank you for your support for this post.

I might also suggest that God's Law, at least the parts which were applicable to Heavenly beings, was even in effect at the time Satan got kicked out of Heaven and down to the earth with the 1/3 of then angels who followed his rebellion against God (Revelation 12:7-9).

Did Satan not covet God's position in the Universe ?
He did, as he showed by leading a rebellion against God.
If he wasn't a lawbreaker, there would not have been any transgression, and therefore no punishment.
But of course, Satan broke God's Law and was kicked out down to earth.

And as for the Law being added after transgressions, we can understand that Paul was saying God made man aware of the Law that existed even before he (man) knew about it.
It's true - if man never sinned, God would have had no reason to make man aware of evil, and could have allowed man to live on endlessly.
But God did not quickly gather a Law together because man sinned, because if there was no Law in the first place, man's sin would not be sin, nor would Adam and Eve have been punished for it.
Adam and Eve had what they needed to know at the time... don't touch the tree or you'll die, a direct Commandment from God.
God did not have to explain to them that breaking that Commandment was one in the same as not having other gods before Him (such as listening to the serpent); or that Eve wanting to "...be like God..." (Gen 3:4) was actually coveting; or that taking the fruit was actually stealing (since God told them they were not allowed to have it), etc.
So God had a plan in place in case man did NOT sin, and God certainly had a plan in place in case man DID sin.
And that plan of Salvation - because man did sin - was Jesus Christ the Righteous.

Thank you again for thwarting the would-be-forces-of-evil in this post. Thank you brothers.

Dtruthspeaker:


They have the knowledge but they love sinning and do not want it removed from their souls.

Therefore, they resist and refuse calls which direct them to remove sins from themselves!

Hmm.

Could it be a case of people not wanting to be told that they're wrong, by pointing out that what they do is against the law? For example, committing adultery/fornication, stealing, profane the Sabbath, killing, worshipping idol etc?

You know, one major problem people have also is that, they don't even know the difference between the Ten Commandment and the "law of Moses". Instead, what you hear often is "600+ laws". If they don't even know what the Ten Commandment is, how will they keep it?

Frankly, it would have been humorous if not for the severity of the matter.

Splinz:

Hmm.

Could it be a case of people not wanting to be told that they're wrong, by pointing out that what they do is against the law? For example, committing adultery/fornication, stealing, profane the Sabbath, killing, worshipping idol etc?

Yes Sur!

Hope you know that "Worshipping idols" includes the worshipping things? Eg money, rich persons, women, the yearning of rich things eg expensive phones, cars, watches etc (the Crime of Coveting)

Splinz:

You know, one major problem people have also is that, they don't even know the difference between the Ten Commandment and the "law of Moses". Instead, what you hear often is "600+ laws". If they don't even know what the Ten Commandment is, how will they keep it?

Frankly, it would have been humorous if not for the severity of the matter.

They know and they do not want to be reminded of it. That is what is happening.

Then secondly people have been misled by "the Header of Exodus 20" which says "Giving of the 10 Commandments".

Meanwhile, the Commandments are All that God Spake unto Moses as Exodus 20:1 directly reports.

And in Exodus 21:1 we see God still Speaking and Issuing out more Commands which He Called "Judgements" and Judgements are Laws.

So there is Truly nothing like 10 Commandments for God did not stop speaking at Exodus 20 but continued Speaking in Exodus 21 up to Exodus 23.

And then in Exodus 25 to 31, God Continued Speaking.

And we see and learn that everytime God Speaks, Laws Come Out, hence by Deuteronomy we learn that "man does not live by bread alone BUT BY EVERY WORD (Law) which proceedeth out of The Mouth of The Lord"!

Thus everytime you see "And The Lord Said" or "Thus Saith The Lord or "Said The Lord", Laws Come Out!

There is no place in the Bible where it is Written in that God Gave 10 Commandments and what is Written was that "God gave Commandments!"

awitness41:
The Law existed even in the Garden of Eden, for “where there is no law there is no transgression” (Romans 4:15).
Was there transgression in Eden ? Yes.
Was it wrong too for Cain to murder Abel ? Yes.
So there was the Law.
We know about Adam and Eve, but did you know God also warned Cain about sin beforehand, saying,
“If you do well, will you not be accepted ?
And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door.
And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” (Genesis 4:7)
How could there be such a thing as sin if the Law was not in effect at that time ?
Pick any Commandment from God's Law.
Which one would it have been right for Cain to transgress ?
None, just like today.
God's Moral Law, the 10 Commandments, is still in effect today.
Is there sin and transgression today ? Yes.
Therefore, there is God's Law being broken.
The Old Covenant Jewish Law regarding priests, feasts, sacrifices, and rituals like circumcision is not in effect since Jesus sealed the New Covenant in His Blood.
But God's Law is, and has always been, in effect.
And we must keep it by first obeying the 2 Most Important Commandments - to Love God and others as ourself.

Is that what the jews told you or just your opinion?

Last time I checked, all the laws of God where for ever..

Are men allowed to update the Torah?
Christians believe blindly Paul’s claims that Jesus appeared to him and follow his version of Jesus" teachings and a so-called new covenant despite contradicting Torah’s teachings.
God appeared to a nation and gave them 613 commandments. He said they were eternal, everlasting, binding for all generations. Three million Jews, the whole nation, heard God speak to Moses, which is how we know he is a true prophet. There is NOT ONE commandment about worshiping God's son or the Messiah. How many Jews heard God speak to any of the Christian Bible authors like Paul, Luke, Matthew, Mark, or Luke? NONE!!!!! They don't have the right to cancel anything that God taught through Moses!

There are horrifying threats for disobeying these commandments in Deuteronomy 28. Deut 13 explicitly recognizes the possibility of miracles of false prophets and says, "Do not hearken unto that prophet." Why follow obscure private revelations when Judaism has the most reliable foundation of all the religions in history, a National Revelation from God? There is no more spiritual joy than keeping God’s commandments and worshipping our Creator directly.

awitness41:

To my brothers in Christ - Dtruthspeaker, MaxInDHouse, truespeak, Splinz - I thank you for your support for this post.

You do not know that you are a prayer answered, for I requested The Lord on Sunday and Monday to send others besides I and True speak,who have Seen these Eternal Truths that we have Seen, for to raise them up high for the world to see.

Yesterday one came up and Today you came up. Great is The Lord and Good is He, for all Lies and Liars Must be Crushed and made Silent.

awitness41:

Did Satan not covet God's position in the Universe ?

Same nonsense he sold to Eve and she saw herself as "God"! Bitch!

awitness41:

So God had a plan in place in case man did NOT sin, and God certainly had a plan in place in case man DID sin.

God Always has A Plan! Sweet words and very very Sweet to hear another say it.

awitness41:


To my brothers in Christ - Dtruthspeaker, MaxInDHouse, truespeak, Splinz - I thank you for your support for this post.

I might also suggest that God's Law, at least the parts which were applicable to Heavenly beings, was even in effect at the time Satan got kicked out of Heaven and down to the earth with the 1/3 of then angels who followed his rebellion against God (Revelation 12:7-9).

Did Satan not covet God's position in the Universe ?
He did, as he showed by leading a rebellion against God.
If he wasn't a lawbreaker, there would not have been any transgression, and therefore no punishment.
But of course, Satan broke God's Law and was kicked out down to earth.

And as for the Law being added after transgressions, we can understand that Paul was saying God made man aware of the Law that existed even before he (man) knew about it.
It's true - if man never sinned, God would have had no reason to make man aware of evil, and could have allowed man to live on endlessly.
But God did not quickly gather a Law together because man sinned, because if there was no Law in the first place, man's sin would not be sin, nor would Adam and Eve have been punished for it.
Adam and Eve had what they needed to know at the time... don't touch the tree or you'll die, a direct Commandment from God.
God did not have to explain to them that breaking that Commandment was one in the same as not having other gods before Him (such as listening to the serpent); or that Eve wanting to "...be like God..." (Gen 3:4) was actually coveting; or that taking the fruit was actually stealing (since God told them they were not allowed to have it), etc.
So God had a plan in place in case man did NOT sin, and God certainly had a plan in place in case man DID sin.
And that plan of Salvation - because man did sin - was Jesus Christ the Righteous.

Thank you again for thwarting the would-be-forces-of-evil in this post. Thank you brothers.

You are Absolutely Right and your Above Post does Gladden my heart in its Accuracy and Trueness and as such you are most welcome.

We must encourage and support each other in putting the Truth out there inspite of the fact that people generally hate the Truth, the Truth must be told!

Please Never Let go of God whom has taught you these things, for you have found the Tree of Life, Hold on to Him and Grow in His Knowledge for therein is the Path of Life!

Dtruthspeaker:


You do not know that you are a prayer answered, for I requested The Lord on Sunday and Monday to send others besides I and True speak,who have Seen these Eternal Truths that we have Seen, for to raise them up high for the world to see.

Yesterday one came up and Today you came up. Great is The Lord and Good is He, for all Lies and Liars Must be Crushed and made Silent.

Oh, yes, I remember we spoke about it on Sunday. And here it is, Glory and Praise be to the Lord our God!

truespeak:


Oh, yes, I remember we spoke about it on Sunday. And here it is, Glory and Praise be to the Lord our God!

The Lord Truly hears the Prayers of His Children and Speedily Answers!

Dtruthspeaker:


The Lord Truly hears the Prayers of His Children and Speedily Answers!

Oh, yes, He Does.

Dtruthspeaker:

Yes Sur!

Hope you know that "Worshipping idols" includes the worshipping things? Eg money, rich persons, women, the yearning of rich things eg expensive phones, cars, watches etc (the Crime of Coveting)

Yes sir, I know. Thank you.

Dtruthspeaker:

There is no place in the Bible where it is Written in that God Gave 10 Commandments and what is Written was that "God gave Commandments!"

There is. The Law, as detailed in Exodus 20 and elsewhere, written on two tablets of stone and specifically inscribed by God's own finger (31:18) has always been generally understood to be Ten, both within and outside the church. There's no dispute about it.

Here:

"And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments" (34:28).

I think one critical point about Israel that people rarely pay attention to is that, Israel was a mixture of State and religion; that it practiced theocracy. It was in this theocratic setting that precepts, ordinances, judgments and testimonies as inspired by God and related to Moses, were used in administering civil matters as well as religious activities.

These must not be confused with the Ten Commandments, wherein there's no addition and subtraction.

Hi all,

In my opinion, the garden of Eden, was a setup.
Video below-


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lR0zXZlJ6A

Splinz:

There is. The Law, as detailed in Exodus 20 and elsewhere, written on two tablets of stone and specifically inscribed by God's own finger (31:18) has always been generally understood to be Ten, both within and outside the church. There's no dispute about it.

Thank you. I am properly guided!

In my thorough page by page reading of the Bible which I have never done, i am still at Exodus 19 and I immediately saw that it was the header on 20 which said 10 Commandments meanwhile it was not stated in 20 and because of too many lies flying, I do not believe anything that I previously heard without proper proof and evidence. Thanks.

Splinz:

I think one critical point about Israel that people rarely pay attention to is that, Israel was a mixture of State and religion; that it practiced theocracy. It was in this theocratic setting that precepts, ordinances, judgments and testimonies as inspired by God and related to Moses, were used in administering civil matters as well as religious activities.

These must not be confused with the Ten Commandments, wherein there's no addition and subtraction.

The bold: I do not like that word "as inspired by God" when Exodus 21 clearly tells us that they came directly God's Mouth as with the other "And The Lord said".

To my mind it sounds like when "God Moves and Motivates a person to act" and not when "He Clearly and Directly Acts!, Suo Moto!"

But is in order.

Ever8090:
that is how they twist the scriptures for reasons best known to them...

Na so I see am oo!

Splinz:

I think one critical point about Israel that people rarely pay attention to is that, Israel was a mixture of State and religion; that it practiced theocracy. It was in this theocratic setting that precepts, ordinances, judgments and testimonies as inspired by God and related to Moses, were used in administering civil matters as well as religious activities.

These must not be confused with the Ten Commandments, wherein there's no addition and subtraction.

That's True... there was:

(1) God's Moral Law (the 10 Commandments, founded on the 2 Most Important Commandments).
The Moral Law is as eternal as God is, for where there is good vs evil, evil could not even be defined as evil without Law.

(2) The civil and religious ritual laws for the Jewish society to live by.

So there is the Moral Law and the civil/religious ritual law.

The Law of Moses contains both of course, but the Moral Law existed long before there was anything such as a Jew.
Adam wasn't Jewish, Noah wasn't Jewish, and Abraham himself wasn't Jewish for the first 99 years of his 175-year life.
But God said Noah was "righteous". Therefore he did not perish along with the unrighteous, but was Saved (as Peter reminds us also).
God also said that Abraham "obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
In fact, the Fourth Commandment regarding the Sabbath Day, even says animals are to be rested on the 7th day. Are animals Jewish?
So when God gave The Commandments to the Jews, they were only reminders to them of God's Moral Law.
In fact, even before He wrote them down on stone for them, God tested the Jews in the desert regarding the Sabbath Day (Exodus 16:22-30).
When some of them broke the 7th day of rest, God said, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?"
Obviously the Jews knew about God's Moral Law beforehand.
As did Abraham. As did Noah. As did Adam (who probably sinned much less than any of us).
God's writing it down on stone was merely a reminder for the sake of the Covenant.
Exodus 34:27-28 (NKJV): "27 Then the Lord said to Moses, 'Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a
covenant with you and with Israel.' 28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water.
And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."

Regarding the civil/religious laws, much of the Law of Moses deals with the religious devotional rules surrounding priests, feasts, sacrifices, and rituals (like circumcision).
Whoever says we still need to keep these things doesn't understand:
(a) priests - Jesus is our only High Priest now.
(b) feasts - Many of the feasts were to be held in Jerusalem, which was destroyed in 70 AD.
Jesus Himself said to the woman at the well in John 4:21-24 (NKJV):
21 “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth;
for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
(c) sacrifices - It would be an abomination to still have animal sacrifices after Christ's death, because He WAS our Sacrifical Lamb.
(d) rituals - If one still wants to be circumcised, they can be. It won't make them a Jew, though. Per Paul, 1 Corinthians 7:19 (NKJV):
"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters."

So finally... there is the civil portion of Moses Law, of which many are an extension of the 10 Commandments.
For example, consider all the rules surrounding sexual immorality.
Are they not mere extensions related to Commandment #7, adultery? Yes.
Jesus Himself does this for us also in Matthew 5, regarding "do not murder" and "do not commit adultery".
Jesus extends them to all the behaviors they actually include.
"Do not murder" means more than "do not stick a sword in someone's ribs"; it includes all forms of name-calling and self-righteous anger.
"Do not commit adultery" also means do not lust or divorce.
And all the 10 Commandments are like this.
"Do not steal"... Jesus tells the Pharisees to keep the weightier matters of the Law (mercy, justice, faith); but still, to not neglect to tithe.
In Malachi, we are told that failing to tithe is robbing from God, which means "do not steal" is not just stealing stuff or services, but
but also includes tithing (to help share God's Word or to give to those in need).
"Do not use the Lord's Name in vain"... also means not speaking His name lightly or frivolously.
"Do not covet"... also means not participating in the many inwardly and outwardly destructive behaviors that stem from using this world's superficial and wrongful measures to define ourselves. Instead of pride, selfishness, vanity, and comparison driving a desire for approval, riches, status, power, or other exaltation, we shall be content with God's providence and His measure of us only.
And so on.

I wish you all well in the Lord.

awitness41:


That's True... there was:

(1) God's Moral Law (the 10 Commandments, founded on the 2 Most Important Commandments).
The Moral Law is as eternal as God is, for where there is good vs evil, evil could not even be defined as evil without Law.

(2) The civil and religious ritual laws for the Jewish society to live by.

So there is the Moral Law and the civil/religious ritual law.

The Law of Moses contains both of course, but the Moral Law existed long before there was anything such as a Jew.
Adam wasn't Jewish, Noah wasn't Jewish, and Abraham himself wasn't Jewish for the first 99 years of his 175-year life.
But God said Noah was "righteous". Therefore he did not perish along with the unrighteous, but was Saved (as Peter reminds us also).
God also said that Abraham "obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
In fact, the Fourth Commandment regarding the Sabbath Day, even says animals are to be rested on the 7th day. Are animals Jewish?
So when God gave The Commandments to the Jews, they were only reminders to them of God's Moral Law.
In fact, even before He wrote them down on stone for them, God tested the Jews in the desert regarding the Sabbath Day (Exodus 16:22-30).
When some of them broke the 7th day of rest, God said, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?"
Obviously the Jews knew about God's Moral Law beforehand.
As did Abraham. As did Noah. As did Adam (who probably sinned much less than any of us).
God's writing it down on stone was merely a reminder for the sake of the Covenant.
Exodus 34:27-28 (NKJV): "27 Then the Lord said to Moses, 'Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a
covenant with you and with Israel.' 28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water.
And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."

Regarding the civil/religious laws, much of the Law of Moses deals with the religious devotional rules surrounding priests, feasts, sacrifices, and rituals (like circumcision).
Whoever says we still need to keep these things doesn't understand:
(a) priests - Jesus is our only High Priest now.
(b) feasts - Many of the feasts were to be held in Jerusalem, which was destroyed in 70 AD.
Jesus Himself said to the woman at the well in John 4:21-24 (NKJV):
21 “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth;
for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
(c) sacrifices - It would be an abomination to still have animal sacrifices after Christ's death, because He WAS our Sacrifical Lamb.
(d) rituals - If one still wants to be circumcised, they can be. It won't make them a Jew, though. Per Paul, 1 Corinthians 7:19 (NKJV):
"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters."

So finally... there is the civil portion of Moses Law, of which many are an extension of the 10 Commandments.
For example, consider all the rules surrounding sexual immorality.
Are they not mere extensions related to Commandment #7, adultery? Yes.
Jesus Himself does this for us also in Matthew 5, regarding "do not murder" and "do not commit adultery".
Jesus extends them to all the behaviors they actually include.
"Do not murder" means more than "do not stick a sword in someone's ribs"; it includes all forms of name-calling and self-righteous anger.
"Do not commit adultery" also means do not lust or divorce.
And all the 10 Commandments are like this.
"Do not steal"... Jesus tells the Pharisees to keep the weightier matters of the Law (mercy, justice, faith); but still, to not neglect to tithe.
In Malachi, we are told that failing to tithe is robbing from God, which means "do not steal" is not just stealing stuff or services, but
but also includes tithing (to help share God's Word or to give to those in need).
"Do not use the Lord's Name in vain"... also means not speaking His name lightly or frivolously.
"Do not covet"... also means not participating in the many inwardly and outwardly destructive behaviors that stem from using this world's superficial and wrongful measures to define ourselves. Instead of pride, selfishness, vanity, and comparison driving a desire for approval, riches, status, power, or other exaltation, we shall be content with God's providence and His measure of us only.
And so on.

I wish you all well in the Lord.

Pray, tell awitness41art thou my brother at the Bar (learned colleague)?

Dtruthspeaker:


Pray, tell awitness are you my brother of the Bar (learned colleague)?

I don't know what you mean exactly...

I can tell you I was a massive sinner in my former life, and that God broke me down mightily and and built me back up... not according to my human-side's way, but according to His Way, through His Word, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

We all have a human side (the flesh - our mental, physical, and emotional states), also sometimes called the "self" (as in self-ishness).
We also each have the Spirit of Life that God and Jesus put in each one of us (or else our flesh would just be a bag of molecules with no ability to breathe or think or have a heart beat).
But the Spirit within us must be fed God's Word in order to become the Parent over our human side.
If we do that, we will have Proper Order within us: our human side subject to our Spirit which is subject to God.
That basically means we won't live by doing "whatever we feel like" or "physically desire", but will have self-control (or control-of-the-self).
Then we, led by our Spirit connected to the Holy Spirit, God's Word, and prayer, can continue to grow as a branch on the Vine of Jesus.
Peter says it wonderfully, when he says we should start out with faith and add to it the steps to get to True Love... faith, goodness, knowledge, self-control, perserverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and Love.
That is a growing Christian Walk !

But certainly, Dtruthspeaker, I consider myself a brother/friend/colleague of yours in the Spiritual sense of the word anyway.

awitness41:


That's True... there was:

(1) God's Moral Law (the 10 Commandments, founded on the 2 Most Important Commandments).
The Moral Law is as eternal as God is, for where there is good vs evil, evil could not even be defined as evil without Law.

(2) The civil and religious ritual laws for the Jewish society to live by.

So there is the Moral Law and the civil/religious ritual law.

You do well sir.

How I wish they could come to the understanding of these two, and rightly divide them as workmen without shame (2 Timothy 2:15).

It's embarrassing to see some people, each time the Law comes up, grouped it as one and same as the civil and "works of the law" (Galatians 3:10) that governed the Levitical priesthood which was abolished, and then totals it as 600+ laws which must be kept.

It's even more embarrassing for one who claims to be a Christian, to confidently states that a Law like the Ten Commandments has been abolished. I mean how can one be a Christian and does not even know that he/she will be judged by the same Law he claims has been abolished? A Law called the "law of liberty" (James 2:11-12).

Thank you for what you're doing, and to others. I think justice has been done to this thread, and it will be of immense benefit to those who seeks the truth. Well done.

Dtruthspeaker:


Thank you. I am properly guided!

In my thorough page by page reading of the Bible which I have never done, i am still at Exodus 19 and I immediately saw that it was the header on 20 which said 10 Commandments meanwhile it was not stated in 20 and because of too many lies flying, I do not believe anything that I previously heard without proper proof and evidence. Thanks.

It's fine. What matters is that we're learning. As for the bold, please keep it that way. The instruction is to "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21). So you do well.

Dtruthspeaker:

The bold: I do not like that word "as inspired by God" when Exodus 21 clearly tells us that they came directly God's Mouth as with the other "And The Lord said".

To my mind it sounds like when "God Moves and Motivates a person to act" and not when "He Clearly and Directly Acts!, Suo Moto!"

But is in order.

Like you said at the end, the usage is "in order". Here: "All scripture is inspired by God" (2 Timothy 3:16).

Many thanks.