Katsumoto:

On March 5, 1961 (he was 20), Pele scored "The Goal of the Plaque." Collecting the ball in his own penalty area, he beat the entire Fluminense team, dribbling the entire way without passing before scoring. A plaque at the entrance of Maracana Stadium in Rio de Janeiro was put up honoring the goal as the "most beautiful" ever in its history.

Has Messi ever beaten an entire team of 11 to score a goal? I suppose football was so easy back then as Pele was playing against a team of ants.

you must be a comedian comparing a nonsense pre-historic brazilian league to the Spanish/UEFA league that is arguably the best league in the world. and if dribbling is your problem, you obviously have not watched this chap play football.

you only watch the CL final before reaching judgement.

PLEASE LEAVE WIKIPEDIA ALONE. It does not make you look sanymore smarter

Katsumoto:

How many players have ever been sent off but still finished the game?

At a match in 1969 in Colombia, Pele was kicked out of the game for arguing with the referee. He was quickly ushered back onto the field because the police feared a riot. The ref was however replaced by the fourth official.


In 1959, Pele had his highest season total with 129 goals. How many players have scored close to 60 in a season?

and to show how ridiculous this is getting; a player scored 30 goals in a league game in rwanda, so he must be better than messi according to your logic.

snowdrops:

you must be a comedian comparing a nonsense pre-historic brazilian league to the Spanish/UEFA league that is arguably the best league in the world.  and if dribbling is your problem, you obviously have not watched this chap play football.

you only watch the CL final before reaching judgement.

PLEASE LEAVE WIKIPEDIA ALONE. It does not make you look sanymore smarter

I am stating facts while you are still resorting to insults and conjecture. Since wikipedia is manufacturing 'facts' for Pele why can't you also use Wikipedia to manufacture facts for Messi?

snowdrops:

you are comparing an era where there were no internet, satellite communication, mobile phones etc to today. when people in Africa cant watch live matches but only read the scores in newspaper. if this were the 50s we wont be having this argument here; would rather be in a beer parlour, were rumour turns into fact. why wont wars be stopped as you claimed for a so called larger than life footballer.

you are quite mischievous character and trying dubiously at all opportunity to twist my points. now is messi is greater than pele. how pathetic can you get.

this boy has achieved a lot for his age given the pressures he is under. if messi played in the team Pele played in the 1958 world cup in Sweden, he would 100% win the world cup as well. you make it sound like Pele single handedly handed the team the trophy.

the tournament that defined Pele was the 1970 WC,when he was already into his 30s. so give messi a break; come back in 15 years time hopfully with your tail betwen your legs.

No one said Messi is not a great player; he is going to be one of the greatests players no doubt. But don't elevate him above his seniors on the basis of european club football; he hasn't done anything yet for Argentina. If we are to use European football alone, he is still behind players such as Puskas and De Stafano who have more champions league medals than him. Heck even Clarence Seedorf has won the ECL four times with three different teams.

By the way, Pele was 29 in 1970 when he won his last WC. Pele retired from the National team in 1971 at 30 scoring an amazing 77 times in 92 games.

snowdrops:

and to show how ridiculous this is getting; a player scored 30 goals in a league game in rwanda, so he must be better than messi according to your logic. 

So Rwanda can now be equated with Brazil the greatest producer of football artisans? Keep up with the snide remarks.


Please produce the facts that support your opinion; I am producing mine.

Katsumoto:

So Rwanda can now be equated with Brazil the greatest producer of football artisans? Keep up with the snide remarks.


Please produce the facts that support your opinion; I am producing mine.

of course; since your focus is goal scored by any player in any league.

and to add to that, in my local five a side team, i scored 7 goals as a sub yesterday. i must be better than messi, as wikipedia says he does not hav that amount in a single game.

Katsumoto:

I am stating facts while you are still resorting to insults and conjecture. Since wikipedia is manufacturing 'facts' for Pele why can't you also use Wikipedia to manufacture facts for Messi?

No one said Messi is not a great player; he is going to be one of the greatests players no doubt. But don't elevate him above his seniors on the basis of european club football; he hasn't done anything yet for Argentina. If we are to use European football alone, he is still behind players such as Puskas and De Stafano who have more champions league medals than him. Heck even Clarence Seedorf has won the ECL four times with three different teams.

how can you quote facts from wikipedia when we know a good number of the info there lacks validity.

imagine comparing seedorf who is a retiree with a small messi; yet seadorf has 4 while messi has 3 CL. that young man is astounding.

is the Argentine team that went to the last world cup were anywhere as good as the Spanish team, we would have started counting his world cup winners medal by now. it was only unfortunate that he went with a team full of numpties. you cant blame him for that. even though he did not score his contribution was immense. everyone knows that diego maradona played him out of position and some sceptics alluded to the point that diego was jealous of messi surpassing his achievement for the national side.

snowdrops:

of course; since your focus is goal scored by any player in any league.

and to add to that, in my local five a side team, i scored 7 goals as a sub yesterday.   i must be better than messi, as wikipedia says he does not hav that amount in a single game.

I have backed my opinion with more than just goals. Pele was an attacking midfielder who scored in excess of 1250 goals. That is a phenomenal statictic.

Pele won three WC; Zidane won just one; Maradona just one; Ronaldo won two even though he didn't play a single game in 1994.

I listed other bits of facts for you; I am still waiting for your list of facts for Messi or any other player. This is an argument that you are bound to lose because no player comes close to Pele in achievement. Lets leave personal opinion out of this; just facts please.

snowdrops:

how can you quote facts from wikipedia when we know a good number of the info there lacks validity.

imagine comparing seedorf who is a retiree with a small messi; yet seadorf has 4 while messi has 3 CL. that young man is astounding.

is the Argentine team that went to the last world cup were anywhere as good as the Spanish team, we would have started counting his world cup winners medal by now. it was only unfortunate that he went with a team full of numpties. you cant blame him for that. even though he did not score his contribution was immense. everyone knows that diego maradona played him out of position and some sceptics alluded to the point that diego was jealous of messi surpassing his achievement for the national side.

You stated that I used Wikipedia; I never stated that I used Wikipedia. You are wasting your time conjecturing; why not produce facts? I haven't listed a single fact from Wikipedia. The information I listed can easily be verified. For instance if you state that Messi stopped the war in Sudan, I will quickly check to verify whether its true or not. I suggest you do the same instead of conjecturing. Maradona sabotaged his team since he didn't Messi to surpass his record; what a load of nonsense.


Dude, list your facts; leave gossip and conjecture aside.

@snowdrops and @Katsumoto Na wa for una oooh.
Each player is a great in his own right, sure times have changed but in Pele's time he became a legend, the facts remain whether he played ancient or modern football, you cannot take that away from him. Maradona played in a different era and he and Pele are still considered Legends even to this day. Messi is still growing and the facts remain. He has not accomplished anywhere near Pele or Maradona. if these players became Legends in their own Era, Messi must become one in his own Era. comparisons across different eras will only cause the sort of arguments you are having. is Messi better than Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima - lest we forget his well rounded accomplishments both on National and Club Level. Messi still has a long way to becomign a Legend in modern football. he is a great footballer though

@ Katsumoto

this your obsession with footballers stopping wars is laughable. next it would be a footballer manufacturing a vaccine, or going to the sun. judge them by what they do on the pitch and not outside it.

i rate messi for his achievements for his age and circumstances irrespective of the competition. therefore his feat for club is excellent. even as an international.
1. 2005 FIFA U21 WC he won the golden ball/shoe as he led Argentina to gold.
2. 2008 Olympics; gold with Argentina
3. Injury limited performance in 2006 WC; and a 5 star one in 2010 WC.

Is that fact enough for you?

@ lagerwhenindoubt

my argument is not whether messi is better than ronaldo/pele/maradonna as we know such comparisons in the past had been wild geese chase.
is had stated earlier some of your points which are
1. messi is still young and needs more time before passing judgements
2. he is a fantastic and excellent footballer given his age.

i also state that caution should be exercised in slating the guy for not having won a so called world cup given his age and how rubbish his national side had been. pele was lucky to had been gifted brilliant players and coaches during his time right from an early age.

pele as well played most of his football in south America; and his 1000 or 1000000 goals should be judged in that respect. therefore we can say because he scored 200 goals in a Brazilian league in one season in the iron age he is better than messi would ever be.

Tank GOD am nt de onli person sayin dese tings ,
hahahah , @snowdrops , beta wake up

lagerwhenindoubt:

@snowdrops and @Katsumoto Na wa for una oooh.
Each player is a great in his own right, sure times have changed but in Pele's time he became a legend, the facts remain whether he played ancient or modern football, you cannot take that away from him. Maradona played in a different era and he and Pele are still considered Legends even to this day. Messi is still growing and the facts remain. He has not accomplished anywhere near Pele or Maradona. if these players became Legends in their own Era, Messi must become one in his own Era. comparisons across different eras will only cause the sort of arguments you are having. is Messi better than [b]Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima - lest we forget his well rounded accomplishments both on National and Club Level. Messi still has a long way to becomign a Legend in modern football. he is a great footballer though[/b]

Messi is a great player and is on his way to becoming a legend. I like Messi but I have to challenge ignorant statements when I see them. If you notice from my initial posts, I stated that Pele, Zidane, Maradona, and Ronaldo were all ahead of Messi on the basis that they had success in club and international football. Messi has success with club football but he is yet to do it with Argentina in the WC.

There is nothing that Messi is doing now that Roberto Baggio didn't do in the 90s or that Platini didn't do in the 80s or Cryuff didn't do in the 70s. Do you know why Zidane is rated higher than Cryuff, Baggio, Platini, Puskas, Di Stafano? They all won the ECL but they didn't win the World Cup. In another 20 years, if Messi fails to win the world cup, he too would fade a bit in status.

snowdrops:

@ lagerwhenindoubt

my argument is not whether messi is better than ronaldo/pele/maradonna as we know such comparisons in the past had been wild geese chase.
is had stated earlier some of your points which are
1. messi is still young and needs more time before passing judgements
2. he is a fantastic and excellent footballer given his age.

i also state that caution should be exercised in slating the guy for not having won a so called world cup given his age and how rubbish his national side had been. pele was lucky to had been gifted brilliant players and coaches during his time right from an early age.

pele as well played most of his football in south America; and his 1000 or 1000000 goals should be judged in that respect. therefore we can say because he scored 200 goals in a Brazilian league in one season in the iron age he is better than messi would ever be.

Is the Brazilian league some kind of mickey mouse league? You continue to expose your limited knowledge of football. As far as you are concerned, European football is the summit of football. You sound like one of those football fans who caught the bug of football recently. I suggest you try and get your hands on some old school football reels and stop belittling football in the old eras or in other continents.

snowdrops:

@ Katsumoto

this your obsession with footballers stopping wars is laughable. next it would be a footballer manufacturing a vaccine, or going to the sun. judge them by what they do on the pitch and not outside it.

i rate messi for his achievements for his age and circumstances irrespective of the competition. therefore his feat for club is excellent. even as an international.
1. 2005 FIFA U21 WC he won the golden ball/shoe as he led Argentina to gold.
2. 2008 Olympics; gold with Argentina
3. Injury limited performance in 2006 WC; and a 5 star one in 2010 WC.

Is that fact enough for you?

Is that all? Pele had won the World Cup twice at the age of 21 and you are talking about someone that is 23 and hasn't played in the semi-final. Do you know that the last world cup winning team to retain the trophy four years later was the Brazilian team of 1958 and 1962 of which Pele was one of the few members of both teams? I mention that just to illustrate how difficult it is to win the world cup.

You stated that football is easier now than then. I am still waiting for points to support that position. Footballers earning more these days does not point to that.

Effiko:

Tank GOD am nt de onli person sayin dese tings ,
hahahah , @snowdrops , beta wake up

Have always been as wide awake as day and night. you my brother needs to realize how naive you are on footballing matters.
If you like, come at me with your attack dogs here. I can handle all of you. So bring it on.

Katsumoto:

Messi is a great player and is on his way to becoming a legend. I like Messi but I have to challenge ignorant statements when I see them. If you notice from my initial posts, I stated that Pele, Zidane, Maradona, and Ronaldo were all ahead of Messi on the basis that they had success in club and international football. Messi has success with club football but he is yet to do it with Argentina in the WC.

Yet again you show how incorrigible you are. you argue on and on and on about the same point. And over and over again i try correcting you and your cronies but your seeming ignorance beclouds your sense of reasoning.
How can you compare a whole footballing career of retired professionals to a young player who has not even peaked. Its like saying BTF is a better governor than Rochas Okorocha even though the latter is a few days in office.
Get the gist

Katsumoto:

There is nothing that Messi is doing now that Roberto Baggio didn't do in the 90s or that Platini didn't do in the 80s or Cryuff didn't do in the 70s. Do you know why Zidane is rated higher than Cryuff, Baggio, Platini, Puskas, Di Stafano? They all won the ECL but they didn't win the World Cup. In another 20 years, if Messi fails to win the world cup, he too would fade a bit in status.

And in your mind Cryuff, Baggio, Platini et al have faded into oblivion because they did not win the magical world cup. How many members of the Italian world cup winning sides of the 30s or that of Uruguay in its first edition or later after the war can you name
Tell me before you jump to wikipedia? If you cant then shame on you. If you think football is all about winning the world cup then you are even more delusional than i first thought.

Katsumoto:

Is the Brazilian league some kind of mickey mouse league? You continue to expose your limited knowledge of football. As far as you are concerned, European football is the summit of football. You sound like one of those football fans who caught the bug of football recently. I suggest you try and get your hands on some old school football reels and stop belittling football in the old eras or in other continents.

Yes European football is the summit, the Pinnacle, the Ultimate when it comes to football. Happy, Sad, start crying now. Only a complete novice would say it is not. It is the richest league in the world. It has all the worlds best players in it. The south americans only return home when they are near retirement or have lost form.
I would take European football any day over any other one.
Tell me how many matches from brazilian league is shown by the satellite tv broadcasters?
Name me 10 players currently playing for santos, coritheans, etc or any of the clubs from brazil? I am sure you cant even name one. But you can name a hundred easily from europe.
I have seen brazilian leagues and i follow a blogger called tim vickery regulary. Believe me it is more ugly than pretty.

Katsumoto:

Is that all? Pele had won the World Cup twice at the age of 21 and you are talking about someone that is 23 and hasn't played in the semi-final. Do you know that the last world cup winning team to retain the trophy four years later was the Brazilian team of 1958 and 1962 of which Pele was one of the few members of both teams? I mention that just to illustrate how difficult it is to win the world cup.

Tell me how many games pele played in the 1958 and 1962 world cups? how central was he to the team at those young ages? the teams were so good that they could have easily won the tournament without pele. the 1970 one was different but yet they had carlos albeto, jairzinho, rivelinho, tostao, etc and coached by the brilliant zagallo.
messi would have won the world cup in that team as well.
pele did not single handedly win it although he played a great part. a team cannot make a forest.

Is that all? Pele had won the World Cup twice at the age of 21 and you are talking about someone that is 23 and hasn't played in the semi-final

Messi struggled in the last world cup because Argentina hired a looney in Maradona to manage them, Pekeman was no different in 2006, and Messi grew up with Barcelona and not playing for one of Boca junior or River Plate, thats why Messi is never been warmed to when he plays for Argentina! Only Zidane has the full set of Medals.

Exactly. I dont know why this man has been arguing the blindly obvious so far. Leave Messi alone. Let him develop. The world cup is not running away. The world is at his feet.

den u fuckas shld stp makin dumb conclusions

Effiko:

den u fuckas shld stp makin dumb conclusions

is that all you ve got. one liner
surely you can do better. you dey disappoint me effiko abi whatever your name is.

football then was more of a contact sport,there are videos of pele getting his shirt torn by defenders,when was the last time it happened now,we had defenders who with one tackle can end your career back then and now u just have to blow at messi and the ref will blow his whistle.messi has it easy now cos he is protected,maradona,zidane,pele never got any kind of protection.the final btw italy and france(zouzou sent off)matterazi was constantly fouling zouzou but materazi never got a single card,now just attempt to mark messi and you geta straight red card.dont get me wronmg,messi is overtly talented but he is wayyyyyyyyyyyyy over protected.if he can be allowed to be tackled like maradona,pele,zouzou and ronaldo got tackled(for christ sake,a def ended ronaldo's career)then i will say he is better than them but now,he is not near them cos he is way over-protected

zidane only retired a few years ago and the rules have not changed much in that period. the rules are made by FIFA and applied by the match officials. there are matches when the referee more or less constantly ignores infringements on messi and his barca colleagues and others when they appear more lenient. the problem is when teams play barca they set themselves to defend and trying to stop them at all cost hence the fouling. you cant blame the ref for applying the rule.
roll back some years, zidane played in a different role and team and league to messi so their circumstances were quite different. i don't believe he was ever discriminated against by the officials during his time. if you must know that was not the first time zz was head butting someone. he had done it in at least one match when he was still in juve. he gets frustrated when things are not going his way just like Paul scholes.
speaking about your point on Pele, that was ages ago, but i don't accept football was ever rugby. but i would agree that over the years the authorities have changed the rules in other to make the game more exciting and have more goals. hence more protection for strikers.

The ban on tackle from behind was brought in 1990 to protect strikers, Messi is one the toughest players to knock off the ball, I saw John Terry charged Messi and he didn't move, El Classico he gets kicked from Pillar to Post telling me he is not tough is pure fantasy! Argentines are different from Brazilian who dives all over the place.

what messi does for his age is unbelievably impressive. he is skillful and telented thats a fact, but he is so strong on the ball and there have been times when he is fouled in the 18" but rather than roll on the grass screaming for a penalty he stays on his feet surging towards goal. he is like wayne rooney, carlos tevez and zidane all in one.

baby-boy:

The ban on tackle from behind was brought in 1990 to protect strikers, Messi is one the toughest players to knock off the ball, I saw John Terry charged Messi and he didn't move, El Classico he gets kicked from Pillar to Post telling me he is not tough is pure fantasy! Argentines are different from Brazilian who dives all over the place.

It is not unusual to maintain balance and purpose when tackled on the ball (A lot of strikers often show that skill). Diving on the other hand requires delicate technique and calculation. it is not easy to dive convincingly on the run of play in a critical match, the psychological and mental intelligence required takes years of training and meditation. You think the referees are not watching?

@snowdrops i had told wateva i wanted 2 sai , i didnt see de point of arguing aimlessly wit you , man
and yea effiko is ma name

If you dont want to argue why come back here starting one?

Effiko:

den u fuckas shld stp makin dumb conclusions

hw does 'dis statement' start an argument , haba @snowdrops

Effiko:

den u fuckas shld stp makin dumb conclusions

Effiko:


hw does 'dis statement' start an argument , haba @snowdrops

chei. if that does not spark and argument i wonder what would.

hhahaha , wateva , man

Effiko:

hhahaha , wateva , man

Whhhaaaattteeva. You are not having the last word.

u tink so no i dont

ok na. two can play that game.

u sure knw how we do it , dont u