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| The Emerging Conversation by PastorAIO: 10:51pm On Jun 15, 2011 |
The Emerging Conversation This is so messy. I don't really know how to talk about it, or present it. It is actually just a mood, a feeling that has grown to the point where it has actually become a movement. For the purpose of attacking it many are trying to put it in a box and define it but the fact is that each strand of the Emerging Conversation is very different. It is certainly sweeping christianity like a tidal wave. This is how I personally perceive it. One person is unhappy with shenanigans that are going on in their church, it dawns on them that the 'christianity' of the church is not authentic and disillusioned they decide that they are better off not going to church. Yet they still believe and they are still christians at heart. Months later the person bumps into another church member and they start to gist. It transpires that both of them have been going through the same thing. Neither go to the church anymore and yet they are still believers. A bit more time goes by and it is discovered that there are quite a number of others like them. They remember the bible's instruction not to forsake the fellowship of each other. So they call each other up and say, 'how about we meet at each others home's once a week and fellowship with each other'? 'Okay', it is agreed. They start to meet in small fellowships to share testimonies and encouragement, to sing psalms, and to share a meal together. After practicing this for a while they hear of some other christian friends who are doing exactly the same thing in the same town. A few months later they discover that christians all over the world are spontaneously doing this. Like-minded christians are fellowshipping together in small groups all over the world and operating under a collegiate system. This causes some fundamental changes in the structure of the worship. Instead of the standard structure of everybody facing one way towards a man in the front who is the leader, they instead organise themselves in a round. This way the church members are looking at themselves rather than at the Pastor. Not only is this phenomenon happening spontaneously around the world, but theological colleges and seminaries are producing theologians and pastors that are studying the bible deeper without influence from Man made doctrines. This isn't just happening in the theological colleges. In this new information age young christians are being facilitated with the tools to read the bible deeper, to study it in the original Koine greek, and to dialogue with people of all faiths around the world including atheists. The result is a disillusionment with the man made doctrines that they were being spoon fed before. However their absence from the institutionalised churches has not gone unnoticed. The result has been a furious backlash at the Emerging Conversation. Some call it the Emerging Church. Depending on what angle the the attackers are coming from they have been called 'Going back to the idolatry of the Catholic Church' , they have been called Post modernists (this one is another kettle of fish, postmodernism underpins most education in America and europe today, and interestingly it was the Catholic church that was most against it originally), They are been called pagans (even being called Ifa priests on some website forums), Some are being told that they are not christians . . . etc etc etc. Admittedly there are some factions of the Emerging Conversation that are extreme in their views, particularly the EmergENT Church. Emergent is different from Emerging. I feel that the battle lines have been drawn and I also feel that it is going to get very messy. I believe we are about to witness something on the scale of the Lutheran Reformation in our own time. It is probably best to post some references for what I'm talking about and some videos. That's best way to get a picture of the storm that is brewing. |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by PastorAIO: 10:51pm On Jun 15, 2011 |
The emerging church (sometimes referred to as the emergent movement or emergent conversation) is a Christian movement of the late 20th and early 21st century that crosses a number of theological boundaries: participants can be described as evangelical, Protestant, Catholic,[1] post-evangelical, anabaptist, adventist,[2] liberal, post-liberal, reformed, charismatic, neocharismatic, post-charismatic, conservative, and post-conservative. Proponents, however, believe the movement transcends such "modernist" labels of "conservative" and "liberal," calling the movement a "conversation" to emphasize its developing and decentralized nature, its vast range of standpoints, and its commitment to dialogue. Participants seek to live their faith in what they believe to be a "postmodern" society. What those involved in the conversation mostly agree on is their disillusionment with the organized and institutional church and their support for the deconstruction of modern Christian worship, modern evangelism, and the nature of modern Christian community. The emerging church favors the use of simple story and narrative. Members of the movement often place a high value on good works or social activism, including missional living.[3] While some Evangelicals emphasize eternal salvation, many in the emerging church emphasize the here and now.[4] Some have noted a difference between the terms "emerging" and "Emergent." While emerging is a wider, informal, church-based, global movement, Emergent refers to an official organization, the Emergent Village, associated with Brian McLaren, and has also been called the "Emergent stream."[5] Key themes of the emerging church are couched in the language of reform, Praxis-oriented lifestyles, Post-evangelical thought, and incorporation or acknowledgment of political and Postmodern elements.[6 Emerging churches can be found throughout the globe, predominantly in North America, Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and Africa. Some attend local independent churches or house churches http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church House church, or "home church", (traditional Chinese: 地下天國; literally "Underground Heaven"  is used to describe an independent assembly of Christians who gather in a home. Sometimes this occurs because the group is small, and a home is the most appropriate place to gather,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_church Morality and justice Drawing on a more 'Missional Morality' that again turns to the synoptic gospels of Christ, many emerging-church groups draw on an understanding of God seeking to restore all things back into restored relationship. This emphasises God's graceful love approach to discipleship, in following Christ who identified with the socially excluded and ill, in opposition to the Pharisees and Sadducees and their purity rules.[68] Under this movement, traditional Christians' emphasis on either individual salvation, end-times theology or the prosperity gospel have been challenged.[69][70] Many people in the movement express concern for what they consider to be the practical manifestation of God's kingdom on earth, by which they mean social justice. This concern manifests itself in a variety of ways depending on the local community and in ways they believe transcend "modernist" labels of "conservative" and "liberal." This concern for justice is expressed in such things as feeding the poor, visiting the sick and prisoners, stopping contemporary slavery, critiquing systemic and coercive power structures with "postcolonial hermeneutics," and working for environmental causes.[71] What is common to the identity of many of these emerging church projects that began in Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom, is that they developed with very little central planning on behalf of the established denominations.[20] They occurred as the initiative of particular groups wanting to start new contextual church experiments, and are therefore very 'bottom up'. Murray says that these churches began in a spontaneous way, with informal relationships formed between otherwise independent groups[21] and that many became churches as a development from their initial more modest beginnings.[22][23] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by PastorAIO: 11:17pm On Jun 15, 2011 |
Sorry, I don't know how to put up youtube videos here. I did once, but the system changed and I don't know the new system. Mark Driscoll gives a very broad breakdown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58fgkfS6E-0 Here is an interesting documentary, but not totally accurate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGSQjtWTpaw&feature=relmfu The Backlash. John MacArthur criticizes McLaren of the Emergent Church https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH1yOmij7Q4&feature=related Ouch! This is scathing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFI-J8Z4rpo&feature=related Radio show attacking Emerging Church (mainly Rob Bell) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z6jAXuSaYI&feature=relmfu |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by aletheia(m): 12:56am On Jun 16, 2011 |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by KunleOshob(m): 8:07am On Jun 16, 2011 |
Subscribing  Evidently I belong to the emerging church |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by Joagbaje(m): 8:31am On Jun 16, 2011 |
@pastor AIO I don't know if I get you very well. The idea that people get tired of institutionalised churches and began forming colonies of believers and meeting in different places may not work. Well it depends on their foundations. Firstly ,some individuals have tried to break the denominational Walls in the body of christ by the claim that the church is one body,and denominations are mans idea so they tried to go back to "the early church " system of one body . Some formed names such as. "THE CHURCH" so their colonies became ,"the church" in lagos, "the church in Abuja" etc. There are some others . "the believers" but with their good intention ,they still ended up becoming a denomination. I'm aware of the congregational system of worship in the U.S. It's been there long long ago. Every body can be the pastor there. Maybe for a year. They do election and elect who will pastor the following year. I will call it "Democracy church". So these things are not new. But they end up becoming another demnomination having their own problems. Ministry is of the holyghost . Christianity without the power is just another dead religion . The holyghost can cause certain movement in the body, if the body refuse to move forward , there can be some breakaways ,and God is involved with such. Satan can cause breakaways and movements. Certain groups such as Jehovah's witnesses and 7th days Adventist were products of such. How do we avoid pitfalls. The first thing to identify is the foundation, all the good movement in the body of. Christ have always been an upward movement. And spiritual movement. From reformation time , to the revivals and Azusa street experience. There is constant positive addition and spiritual advancement which moved the body forward. It is different from when people get tired ,offended ,discouraged ,and leave a church and they look for other tired people to meet together and form colonies. I don't see the holyghost in that. I may be wrong in my description . A christian should not stop attending churches ,to start with. If he has an inward problem he ought to deal with it by the word of God. A man may leave one church for another if the church he attends can no longer meet his spiritual hunger. If there is a new thing God is doing, he will communicate it. But such will always be an upward upgrade. Question to ask: these individuals ,are the born again? Have they received the holyghost. Are they men and women of prayers and intercession? There had been series of revivals in the body of christ over years. Bit one thing is clear . They were born out of prayers and intercessions. They gave birth to these results we see today. So if these new movement are born of God. what is their purpose, what is the spiritual state of the individuals involved .Are they involved in Gods no 1 assignment for the church which is soul winning ? If the individuals are just critics and people who never were under spiritual leadership. We may just be dealing with rebellion . That's one. And secondly we may be dealing with genuine seekers of God. But how strong is their foundations. Jehovah's witnesses started out well as a group , they mean well, but it's tending to be a religion now. Same goes for the Adventist who broke out of the witness, or so. So that we don't end up giving birth to funny things such as THE GODIAN, CHRISLAM etc. |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by PastorAIO: 10:11am On Jun 16, 2011 |
Joagbaje: what would you consider to be a proper foundation? I think we ought to make a distinction between Church and Fellowship. There is only one church but there are many fellowships. There are small fellowships and there are big fellowships. Joagbaje:This is the first that I am hearing of the congregational system. Please tell me, Prior to Martin Luther's reformation, where and how was holyghost's ministry performed. Joagbaje: This statement might yet come back to bite you on the ass. How do you propose to determine which 'christian' movements are of the Satan and which are of the Holyghost? Joagbaje: Brilliant question!! How do we avoid pitfalls? How do we identify the foundations? Can you identify any 'good movement' in the body of Christ prior to the reformation time? What was the holyghost doing before then? Sleeping?? Joagbaje: Please, don't do a deepsight on me.  I never said anything about being tired, offended, or discouraged. I said disillusioned. Disillusion is when you were once under an illusion and then the illusion is removed and you become dis-illusioned. It might have the effect of deflating you, or it might buoy you up. That depends on how you handle disillusionment. Many christians who stop fellowshipping in the big institutions have already gone from one 'church' to another. Some even yab them and say they are church hopping. This has happened many times in NL, but I can find the exact thread where. What do you do if you live in a small town with 3 'churches' and one is headed by a paedoophile who is trying it on with your son, the other is full of politics and bickering and the 3rd preach nothing but tithes as the means to salvation. I don't see the holyghost in that. I may be wrong in my description .Thank you for acknowledging that you may be wrong. That you don't see the holyghost does not mean that there isn't the holy spirit at work. Joagbaje: You've come again o! Is there such a thing as a christian who isn't born again? I think you need to not look at it as if it is one homogeneous movement. There are so many strands. I think that at the moment it is just a mood that is being expressed in diverse ways. As regards their purpose, I could not tell you. Sometimes, most times in fact, you cannot define the holy spirit's objective for doing something. You don't know where it is coming from or where it is going to but you know that it is passing. How would you define soul winning? Joagbaje: Would you say that Martin Luther's reformation was a rebellion? What does it mean to be under spiritual leadership? How many pentecostals can claim to belong to a tradition that actually harks back to the time of the apostles. In other words how much of protestantism is actually apostolic? If they are not then where is the actually source of their leadership? Where can you trace their tradition back to? Can you trace any of them beyond the Azusa revival? The Azusa Street Revival was a historic Pentecostal revival meeting that took place in Los Angeles, California, and was led by William J. Seymour, an African American preacher. It began with a meeting on April 14, 1906, and continued until roughly 1915. The revival was characterized by ecstatic spiritual experiences accompanied by miracles, dramatic worship services, speaking in tongues, and inter-racial mingling. The participants received criticism from secular media and Christian theologians for behaviors considered to be outrageous and unorthodox, especially at the time. Today, the revival is considered by historians to be the primary catalyst for the spread of Pentecostalism in the 20th century.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azusa_Street_Revival If we are to emphasise being under leadership then how much credence can we give to a movement that can only trace it's tradition back the last century. By the way, it was the JW that broke out of the Seventh-Day-Adventists. |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by nuclearboy(m): 1:00pm On Jun 16, 2011 |
Revelation 18:4 discusses the city of babylon, long considered to be the end-time church that has fallen by the wayside and has become a business. Towards her, the angel asks that those who are "God's People" should come out of her. I think that call is getting to those who truly serve God and gradually, they are coming out and returning to the type of fellowship we see in the New Testament. We could go further to associate this with what Christ described when He said in John 4:23 :"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is Spirit and His worshipers must worship in Spirit and in truth". True Worship therefore (at least According to Jesus) is Spiritual. So maybe we need to leave the "fake" worshipers who worship God on the basis of money and health and prosperity SINCE according to Jesus, true Worship is Spiritual. And we know that Spiritual is compared to Spiritual (1 Cor 2:13). Let those who would compare Spirit to Flesh thus beware! Again, some would have us believe that the big churches are all there is. But at the beginning, what was the church like? And what does the Word say about how God sees Church. Mat 18:20 says: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" Which would infer that Christ/God does not discriminate in numbers. Also, we read of churches meeting mainly in homes in the Scriptures rather than in specific buildings called churches. Rom 16:5, 1 Cor 16:19. Thus according to Scripture, its not the building but the people. Then it can be even 2 people. It is only today's business churches that insist there are specific buildings set apart where God may be found. Which brings me to my major question - where were RCCG, Deeper life, The Methodist church & all other "houses" claiming to be the only "church" today, 2 hundred years ago? Or are we then saying the few member churches of those days sent people to damnation? |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by nuclearboy(m): 1:11pm On Jun 16, 2011 |
Pastor, Your post above needs more information - how many have any idea of what happened pre-lutheran? How many know what the [true] church was like under the persecution and dark ages? How do you expect those who do not understand that the real "church" (like in the days of the Apostles) has mainly been outside of buildings to understand your questions? |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by PastorAIO: 1:46pm On Jun 16, 2011 |
nuclearboy: If someone insists on tradition, and insists that a pastor must have been raised by another pastor etc, then I presume that they have a pastor who was pastored by others who were in turn pastored by others . . . all the way back to the apostles. In other words I expect that they are a part of the apostolic tradition. If that is the case and they demand to know who pastored one in order to establish his/her legitimacy then I expect that they will know what happened in their tradition during the dark ages and before Luther. Even if this information is not in the history books at least within the church they will know that 600 hundreds years ago the pastor of the pastor of the pastor of the pastor . . . . of their pastor lived somewhere and did something. The Catholics can make reference to their tradition, but can Joe Agbaje tell us about his tradition of his 'true' church. I mean tradition in the original sense of the word, ie something that is handed over. If he claims something has been handed over to him then he ought to be able to trace where it has been handed over from. 1 Like |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by Enigma(m): 2:30pm On Jun 16, 2011 |
On the main topic, I think two issues should be borne in mind: (a) forms of fellowship and (b) doctrine and praxis. On forms of fellowship, I think the cardinal rule is "where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them". This assumes a few things e.g. that the fellowshippers truly believe in Christ and are gathered because of that unity. In that case, it may not matter much whether we meet in a cathedral, an auditorium or such other large edifices ---- subject to absence of financial abuse potentially arising from the financial cost of building and maintaining such edifices and subject to other vestiges some ceremonial and some more serious e.g. robes and all that and the idea one person (pastor/reverend/bishop) knows it all etc. In this respect, the "emergent church" or whatever it is called is not all that different from the house church movement. Consider also that in some countries, the church remains necessarily an underground church and the house fellowship format is crucial. The second issue of doctrine/praxis is an age long issue that was even present from the onset: here now, we run into difficulties of what are the doctrines and practices that cannot be compromised and what are those in respect of which there is liberty. This is not an easy issue to resolve. In this respect, there are difficulties to bear in mind with the "emergent church", if it becomes too much of an intellectual exercise which ultimately leads to the denigration (not merely questioning or reappraisal) of things that have traditionally been seen as important doctrines especially (and maybe praxis too). For me an overriding consideration is honesty of purpose and genuine faith in Jesus Christ. This is where I have almost unresolvable difficulty with the prosperity "gospel" because common sense and the fruit of the leading prosperity "gospel" proponents suggest that there is plenty of reason to doubt that they (the leaders) are honest and true believers in Jesus Christ. |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by nuclearboy(m): 4:10pm On Jun 16, 2011 |
@Pastor: 100% for that post. The traditionalists have lost it because almost none can go back even one century even if they had ALL records. Our Pentecostal movement is worst hit in this regard because most can scarcely see back 50 years. I wonder if they ever considered that 20 to 50 years back, they too would be as they consider others today, seen as spiritual vagabonds having no "source"? Yet they arose and today ascribe to themselves legitimacy whist in turn denying others the same. The truth remains that the disillusionment coming with large churches is not due to any hatred but simply a dismay that focus has been lost and turned away from Christ and to MOGS and standard of life. The discerning congregation member starts to wonder why Christ's suffering, humility, sacrifice, self-denial have left the pulpit and been replaced by carefully constructed anecdotes detailing Success, power, plenty etc. One wonders what happened to statements like the world will hate you because it hated me, One wonders what happened to they will kill you believing they serve God by doing so yet it is precisely the opposite. Its amazing really, how the sighted can be so blind. Except of course, they are not blind but needs must pretend not to see these |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by Tonyet1(m): 4:47pm On Jun 16, 2011 |
I like the sentence that says : "Ministry is of the Holyghost". . .nothing more can be said of that. I'll refrain from putting up scriptures at least for now but i'll love to respond to the "foundation" thingy, I strongly believe that the "emergent church" is nothing but a seed founded on "self-righteousness" and "rebellion" based on the ever-growing corrupt nature of man. I will make adduce Don Boys PHD's view on the ills of this cult called "Emerging church". *a topic i have always wanted* |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by Tonyet1(m): 4:55pm On Jun 16, 2011 |
@ Nuclearboy, nuclearboy: On the contrary my friend. . .no other church was said to have come out from the church of laodicea except I'll call them "the emergent denomination *if you understand my point exactly* subconclusively I say the "last deeds" must be accomplished by only the "last church". |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by aletheia(m): 7:54pm On Jun 16, 2011 |
^ Please clarify what you mean. I don't want to misunderstand you. |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by nuclearboy(m): 10:17pm On Jun 16, 2011 |
@Tonye-T Like Aletheia, I too will like to understand what you mean. For clarity, what my post meant was that today's traditionalists say that any new movement is vagrancy. Yet how old are themselves? Can you, T-T, name one of the Pentecostal churches that can trace its way back on a "family tree" to pre-lutheran days? 80 years ago, did the RCCG exist? If when the "vision" that led to it came and it was not allowed to be birthed because it was new and therefore "wrong", would that church TODAY (I'm using this as an example) have right to try stop any new "vision" or movement today? PS: Maybe its just me, but your use of English seems intended deliberately to confuse! Could you try to be more reader-friendly? |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by Joagbaje(m): 4:16am On Jun 17, 2011 |
Pastor AIO: That's not what I meant. I'm talking about purpose and callings. 2 neighbours can just be meeting together to fellowship in a new shell estate because there is no church around. But that doesn't make for the church. They can't continue like that for too long. The church has purpose and structure. It is by the holyghost. Ephesians 4:11-13 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: The ministry gifts play important roles in the church. These offices are callings. In the traditional church. 1 Corinthians 12:28 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. The two or three people can't fulfil this. The church has structure . It's a network. It has an assignment and purpose. The preaching of the gospel, perfection of the saints through the ministry gifts. Such as the pastor, apostles etc. The Catholics can make reference to their tradition, but can Joe Agbaje tell us about his tradition of his 'true' church. The idea is . Nobody has any business starting a movement or whatever without a divine purpose. There must be a call . Hebrews 5:4 4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. Romans 10:15 . . And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written Some MOGs don't have business there as well, because some churches were started by wrong Motives. So I'm design with a general principle . One thing is clear. Everything we do in the body of christ must be by calling. If God calls you he will anoint you (empowerment). If God anoints you ,there are signs that goes with such offices. Supernatural signs. Ministry is of the holyghost . If he sends you there must be evidence. Which must be supernatural signs. 2 Corinthians 12:12 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. 1 Corinthians 2:4-5 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Christianity without the supernatural is nothing but a dead religion. You can't cut people of God from the network. Ministry is of the holyghost . It is not by "WE ARE TIRED OF CHURCHES ,WE WANT TO START SOMETHING NEW" it sounds like rebellion to me. The question to be be asked is what is the purpose of this new idea. What is their objectives. How does it align with Gods purpose in the church. Can it fulfil the role of the church? What about the ministry gifts? Who is leading? Who is hearing God. Where are they going to? Who is teaching who? I feel if a man seem to be tired of his church because he is not being well fed,he should go to another church where he can be well fed based on the degree of hunger in his heart. A man may get dissatisfied with things in a church but that is not enough reason to stay at home waiting for . 2 or 3 get together. How much have you received from what God has in the existing churches before pulling out. Firstly have you received the holyghost? |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by Tonyet1(m): 10:56am On Jun 17, 2011 |
aletheia: Alright! Firstly i will hold firm the postulate that says "there is nothing new under the face of the earth again" holding that as true, I'll assume that this church/people - "Emergent church *henceforth referred to as EC*" are just a "recycled movement" whose origin can be traced to some pre-existed movement, 100% chances show this movement as the reincarnated "gnostic church". Lets see why I called the EC a seed founded on "rebellion" as was the case of the ancestral lineage (the gnostic church). Any new movement has an element of “protest” in it and the emergent movement is no different. I'll highlight some characteristics of this movement-EC, thread after thread. 1. Postmodern worldview and hermeneutics: The emerging church is a response to the perceived influence of modernism in Western Christianity. . .These Christians saw the contemporary church as being culturally bound to modernism. . . They changed their practices to relate to the new cultural situation. . . Emerging Christians began to challenge the modern church on issues such as: institutional structures, systematic theology, propositional teaching methods, a perceived preoccupation with buildings, an attractional understanding of mission, professional clergy, and a perceived preoccupation with the political process and unhelpful jargon ("Christian-ese" . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church#Values_and_characteristicsI will like to believe that the leaders and founders of this movement were attendees of institutional structures (church as an institution) until they began to see the vices and flaws that could spread forth from the pulpit to the congregation (every thing remains in a state of rest until being put in motion by a force - Newton 1st law). I quite agree with their rationale but a deeper view would reveal that as much as bad influences could come from the pulpits there are also high chances that good influences could emanate from other pulpits.*which is probably where the EC does not see. . .or maybe they just ignore not seeing it* Pulpits do not preach to people,men do. . .as such what should be the best approach? to get rid of the pulpit system or the men.? Your answers are as good as mine. But no no no, their idealogy is just too myopic, which is, using the church system within their present view to judge the generality of a wider spectra that all institutional churches stand the chances of being victims of one-man-preaching system which they believe can corrupt the minds of the congregations. But they'b forgetting the fact that even amongst their supposed "small cell group" some bad influences could still stem up from bad men and corrupt the whole leaven. I dont have problems with EC so long as the gospel is taught to enlighten the minds of others, but I strongly believe that every thing in the human body form the balance of the body. Pastors are called and given the task of feeding sheep and lambs. And guess what? it doesnt end there, a pastor should also "tend" their sheep. What is tend? - To accompany as an assistant or protector; to care for the wants of; to look after; to watch; to guard; as, shepherds tend their flocks. - Brainyquotes.com Ephesian 4:11 - It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers. Jeremaih 3:15 - Then I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will lead you with knowledge and understanding |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by Tonyet1(m): 11:00am On Jun 17, 2011 |
nuclearboy: . . .they all do. We'll come to that later.! |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by OmoTier1(m): 11:30am On Jun 17, 2011 |
Joagbaje:God bless you for this write up. Fills up very much the things that went through my mind as I read the opening post. God permit me,I had some experience (in the UK) of something similar to this so called gathering of christians without a Pastor/some form of leadership and it was a nightmere! There was no direction, and the supposedly "deep" search of the scripture they often assert themselves for was more superfacial in comparison to the WORD drill I used to engage myself in at our christ embassy cell meetings before I partially relocated from Nigeria. All I can say is this, thank God we finally got a christ embassy in town.I wouldn't trade it for any of these so called "fellowships". I also believe that most churches these days are now cascaded into several groups/cells which often meet once or twice a week for "fellowship". Someone correct me. In the early church, were fellowship was held in homes - mainly due to persecution of the authorities then as also is witness in large parts of Asia today- did they not have leaders who took responsibilities for the groups -like Lydia- ? My final take in all this as my eyes could see now is; Number's 16 -KORAH's rebellion! -God help me to see clearly |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by Joagbaje(m): 12:53pm On Jun 17, 2011 |
^^^ Omo_Tier1: They met together cooperately every Sunday and still met daily in houses. There is purpose for the two .The lesser groups were still part of the greater. One didn't supplant the other |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by PastorAIO: 1:55pm On Jun 17, 2011 |
I like the way this thread is going. Like I said it is messy and I can think of about 3 different issues that I want to go into that would each require an entire thread of their own. Alas I don't have time now, but over the weekend small by small I hope to make contributions that will hopefully push the thread even further along. |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by PastorAIO: 10:35am On Jun 19, 2011 |
Tonye-t: Tonye-t: I think we ought to properly understand what Tonye-t is saying here. He is referring to certain attacks that the pentecostal churches are making on the Emerging church. One of their ploys is to equate it with the Church of Laodicea mentioned in the book of Revelation. Below is a typical attack from a website that I want to quote. I won't make any comment of my own, just highlight certain phrases that I think speak for themselves and leave it to you all to make up your minds what is going on. The Advent Of The Laodicean Church.http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/spiritual-life/the-advent-of-the-laodicean-church/ |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by foluwumi: 10:48am On Jun 19, 2011 |
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| Re: The Emerging Conversation by PastorAIO: 11:00am On Jun 19, 2011 |
I said I wouldn't make any commentary but it is just too tempting. Most shocking is the attempts to distance the christian life from doing good works and social responsibility. Their intention is to keep the notion of a relationship with God so abstract that it doesn't actually have to yield fruits. All you have to do is say 'i have a relationship with god', or 'I love god' and that's it. This is precisely what is wrong and what Jesus speaks against. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ How can you love the Lord so abstractly that you do not do anything for him. It's like you have a friend who knows you're in financial difficulty and he is rich. He comes to you and says, 'I really wish I could do something to help you, you know I would. I'm always here for you'. But he doesn't put his hand in his pocket to give you a penny. Does that friend really love you? Jesus is not stuupid. I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. (Rev. 2:2-4)As usual they like to pick the verses and chop halfway to support what they are saying. Typical pentecostal move. Let us read the rest of the passage jare. 5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. The passage was saying that although they were doing good works they were not doing it as before so they should go back to doing it with the fervour of before. For a start this movement is so varied that it is disingenuous to lump it altogether under some leaders. However what they are being criticized for here is something that I think all churches must do. They must present statements of accounts of all the funds that the church deals with, firstly to their congregants, and secondly, I believe, to the government. Charity organisations do this so why don't churches, and churches are registered as charities, do this. All references to 'business' are just the pentecostals projecting what they see in the mirror unto other people. Don’t kid yourself into thinking that the Lord needs us to help build His Kingdom.God might not need help to build his kingdom but he has asked for it. It is not my place to ask why he wants us involved. |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by PastorAIO: 11:45am On Jun 19, 2011 |
Joagbaje:Says who? Who told you that 2 people meeting together in fellowship doesn't make a church? Where 2 or 3 are gathered in his name, he is there. Besides you are still lost on this idea that the church is a building and a man made institutions. No!! The Church is those who have been called out of the world, for christ. And if Christ is in the midst of them they can 'continue like that' for as long as Christ wills it. Organisations have purpose and structure. The Church are simply those called out for Christ. Joagbaje: Thank you very much for saying that one needs to be called to go into ministry. My question to you is, how do you determine whether one is called out not? How was Oyaks called to start CEC? How were you called? Did you hear a voice? My second question: Since we shall know them by their fruits, What are the fruits of the spirit? I suggest these: 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Galatians 5 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.1Corinthians 13 Joagbaje: My guy, if you are tired then I advice you to find somewhere and take a rest. I know that subconsciously you keep going on about tiredness because you feel a deep weariness within your soul. That is why you opened a thread about your body needing to take a rest. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-693890.0.html Nobody is tired of Church. Although many are sick and tired of fake-assed institutions using religion to abuse unsuspecting trusting souls. Now you asked about purpose. In the old testament a law was given. In the new testament Jesus spoke of fulfilling the law. He said that the whole thing was summed up in 2 statements commonly known as the Shema. Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is One. 5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And Love your neighbour as yourself. If you know any purpose again aside from these then I am keen to hear it. |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by PastorAIO: 11:53am On Jun 19, 2011 |
@Joagbaje, . . . and you didn't address any of my questions. I'll summarise them for you again. Maybe you were busy and didn't see them. 1)what would you consider to be a proper foundation? 2)Please tell me, Prior to Martin Luther's reformation, where and how was holyghost's ministry performed. 3)How do you propose to determine which 'christian' movements are of the Satan and which are of the Holyghost? 4) Can you identify any 'good movement' in the body of Christ prior to the reformation time? What was the holyghost doing before then? 5)How would you define soul winning? 6)Would you say that Martin Luther's reformation was a rebellion? 7)What does it mean to be under spiritual leadership? |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by KunleOshob(m): 2:45pm On Jun 19, 2011 |
@pastor AIO You want joagbaje to shoot himself in the foot? An answer to any of those questions would expose the hypocrisy of not only joagbaje but the whole WOF/ penterascal business. Abeg softly on the man ooo! He is only trying to protect his bread and butter. |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by Joagbaje(m): 6:15pm On Jun 19, 2011 |
Pastor AIO: where you are alone, he is there also. That doesn't make up for the church. Hebrews 10:25 25 Let us not neglect our church meetings, as some people do, but encourage and warn each other, especially now that the day of his coming back again is drawing near. Besides you are still lost on this idea that the church is a building and a man made institutions. Can you quote where I said that? No!! The Church is those who have been called out of the world for christ. And if Christ is in the midst of them they can 'continue like that' for as long as Christ wills it. 2 people can't fulfil the purpose of the church. The two are part of a whole. But when you disconnect the 2 from a whole. Something is wrong.somebody is missing something. 1 Corinthians 12:21-22 . . . And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: Thank you very much for saying that one needs to be called to go into ministry. My question to you is, how do you determine whether one is called out not? How was Oyaks called to start CEC? How were you called? Did you hear a voice? When you leave topic and start getting personal , I begin to wonder.  My second question: Since we shall know them by their fruits, What are the fruits of the spirit? I don't get you here , you're not saying anything My guy, if you are tired then I advice you to find somewhere and take a rest. I know that subconsciously you keep going on about tiredness because you feel a deep weariness within your soul. That is why you opened a thread about your body needing to take a rest. Nobody is tired of Church. Although many are sick and tired of fake-assed institutions using religion to abuse unsuspecting trusting souls. You can speak for yourself alone.Why did you stop going to church? What kind of church? This answer will determin if the problem is your church, or your pastor or even you. Now you asked about purpose. In the old testament a law was given. In the new testament Jesus spoke of fulfilling the law. He said that the whole thing was summed up in 2 statements commonly known as the Shema. Christ is building his church. He wants to perfect the saints unto maturity. Bring born again is only a starting point and not an end on it's own. That's why he has given certain offices as gifts to perfect the saints.everyone could have prayed at home and read the bible. But it will not suffice. You need the body. You need the ministry gifts. The church needs to grow into fullness of christ. Ephesians 4:11-12 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: And another part is to evangelise the world for Jesus . |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by yommyuk: 8:32pm On Jun 19, 2011 |
Mat 18:20 says: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" The above scripture is a true statement but on 90% of cases abused. The gathering of 2 or 3 for starters is good, but without divine direction is inherent to wither away. We are told that only 120 believers were present at the first prayer meeting seeking divine direction (Acts 1:13-15), but after the mighty outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, the number of Christians increased to about 3000 (Acts 2:41). This number increased to 5000 after they heared the word from Peter and John(Act 4:4). My point. The gathering of so called believers without any divine directive from God in my opinion is a dangerous move. A movement outside the will of God cannot stand the test of time. Psalms 127:1 Unless the Lord builds a house, the work of the builders is wasted (in vain) The intial motive for establishing the movement ( the seed) will eventually grow and take over. The weeds will outgrow the wheat. A RECIPE FOR DISASTER  But if the gathering is of divine calling, the God of Hosts will equip you(movement) with all you(it) need(s) for doing his will. He will produce in you thru the power of Jesus Christ every good thing that is pleasing to him (Heb 13:21). It is God that will supply you with the resources (human, finance,spirtual) needed to accomplish his works. In you God will bear Good fruit. Family men will resign from their jobs to follow your calling. you become fishers of men. |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by seyibrown(f): 10:26pm On Jun 19, 2011 |
[b] John 4:19-24 King James Version (KJV) 19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Today's churches have become business centres! It has resulted in MAN WORSHIP and MONEY WORSHIP! The amount of money wasted on building places of worship can be better spent bettering the lives of believers and non-believers. People are 'forced' to bring money they cannot spare for purposes that are not essential! The people are suffering but the Church building is covered in Gold (not literally)!  Non-believers are already asking for churches to be taxed because of the corruption found in Churches, and it will happen!When the Anti-Christ turns in full force on Christians and you cannot gather in a 'physical Church', you will have to not worship God at Christ Embassy or wherever but at home, in secret (underground), in spirit and in truth! The church is spiritual, not a brick building or a denomination![/b] |
| Re: The Emerging Conversation by Enigma(m): 1:12am On Jun 20, 2011 |
It is incredible that what Jesus said, that where two or three are gathered in His name, He is right there in the midst of them, some people are saying it is not good enough. Consider: 1. Two or three men regularly meet to pray, sing, fellowship even share meals together; maybe occasionally they hook up with other fellows so the group is enlarged/extended once in a while. 2. 5 families agree to meet up regularly, maybe meeting in members homes in turn, and pray, sing, relax, play (especially the children) together 3. 2,000 people attend a church headed by Reverend King King 4. 20000 people attend a church headed by Pastor Eddie Long Can someone tell us in which one of this four scenarios is Jesus most likely to be present? Also, can they tell us if that no 1 and no 2 amount to "forsaking the assembly of the brethren"? (PS What I have written here is irrespective of what one thinks of the emerging/emergent church!) |
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