₦airaland Forum

ChinenyeN:
You must be dense, Ekealterego. I would have liked to engage, but you have lost the benefit of the doubt in my eyes, because of your obsession with Alagoa. You're so obsessed that you failed to see that nothing in my statements to SlayerForever in this thread has been Alagoa-inspired. Where you even quoted me was not anywhere near Alagoa-inspired. In fact, I am one of the earliest people on NL to even discuss the Ijaw reauthorization of the 1930s - 1970s (which includes Alagoa's writings). My NL post history is open for all to view and confirm this.

Anyhow, get out of my face, owhno. Have a seat somewhere and stop wasting SlayerForever's so far great attempt at providing defensible materials in this thread. If you want me to ever respond to you again in good faith on this forum, then earn the benefit of the doubt in my eyes, owhnoghowhno nnu la gh.

Ekealterego:
Your frustrations stem from the fact that I called out your subtle attempt to inject Ijaw into Andonni history even when it was all based on illusions.

ChinenyeN:
Anyhow, get out of my face, owhno. Have a seat somewhere and stop wasting SlayerForever's so far great attempt at providing defensible materials in this thread. If you want me to ever respond to you again in good faith on this forum, then earn the benefit of the doubt in my eyes, owhnoghowhno nnu la gh. I gala di l'ikohnu nkohnu du gbuo.

ChinenyeN:
My last response to you on this thread. If you aren't here to help SlayerForever with indefensible materials then shut up. Beyond that, earn the benefit of the doubt in my eyes, if you ever want me to engage you in good faith on this platform again. Otherwise, tajidiri hie l'iwhnu m lia.

ChinenyeN:
I would encourage you to do some research then. It is well-corroborated within the eastern delta and environs by Igbo-speaking, Ijaw-speaking, Ogoni-speaking, Obolo-speaking and Ibibio/Efik-speaking people’s that “Andoni” is derived from “Idoni”.


Help me understand your statement here. Is this your answer to my earlier inquiry about why you based your analysis off of the presence of the name Agbaye in Opobo?


We all know writers are free to offer up whatever interpretation they so choose, but it doesn’t change the fact that interpretations are left indefensible when writers are not able to sufficiently state the basis of such interpretations or offer up any shred of insight into the linguistic, cultural, social, political, etc context that informed their interpretation. It will get tossed out by anyone who takes half a moment to scrutinize it.

For instance, I’ve inquired about your interpretation regarding Agbaye, but aside from the quote above (in which you mention Alagbanye as well as Opobo as likely ancestors provided to A. G. Leonard), you’ve done little to nothing to sufficiently explain the context that informed the basis of your Agbaye analysis.

I even tried to lend you a hand by exposing the phenomenon of a time-worn name before giving the rest of my response in one of my previous posts. I was looking to see if perhaps it was what you needed to explain the relationship between Alagbariye and Agbaye (my thought was that perhaps you did not have the right words before to explain it). For example, if you were to say that you chose Agbaye, because you discovered it is a time-worn name for the founding ancestor that is still preserved in Ubani (Bonny and Opobo) oral traditions, then we could have had some place to begin. However, nothing of the sort was rendered by you, except to equate Agbayi with Agbaye, which we have shown to not even be equated by Opobo people themselves. This renders the Agbayi/Agbaye basis indefensible.

Look, I actually like this thread you have here, and for the most part, you have some defensible material here. So you’re doing good work, for the most part, and I want you to keep doing it. However, this particular indefensible part leaves a hole in the discussion that (if not plugged up) could potentially render the entire thread as circumstantial. It will in effect get tossed out, because anyone who takes half a moment to assess will discover the inability to defend the Agbayi/Agbaye basis.

Anyhow, maybe I have let this interaction go on for too long. I’ll sit back and try to enjoy the rest of the thread as you compile your information.

ChinenyeN:
SlayerForever, please continue on with the thread. I'm interested in seeing the cultural materials you've compiled as well as what your interpretations (and basis for interpretation) are (will be) concerning the cultural materials.

SlayerForever:
Andoni is not a time worn derivative of Idoni.

The ancestors of the Bonny people were from Igbo land. He bore an Igbo name. Alagbanye was forwarded to Glyn as well as Opobo as likely ancestors circa 1880.

In light of forehand knowledge Alagbanye is open to be broken down or explained sort of by any scholar or writer approaching the subject using whatever type of analysis of choice. Nobody alive now was there when the ancestors came, so there's a degree of freedom of interpretation one has in deciphering the name.

Fejoku:
Andoni was derived from Idoni. This is correct. They have no single connection with Ijaws though.
I've noticed that the boundary between the Andonis and Kalabari seems to be a melting pot of different ethnicities. Ogu-Bolo lga specifically has some names of communities that's suggestive of Igbo settlements. I'll like others to investigate that area too.

SlayerForever:
How many writers who said Ndoki came from Isedeni or Ebeni-toru in the central Delta have had their spurious claims thrown out. Write yours. And I write mine.

Andoni is not Idoni. Andoni is simply Anthony. I'm sure you are appreciative. You can thank me later.

ChinenyeN:
SlayerForever, I will respond to you, since you continue to show that I can give you the benefit of the doubt.

Now, let me ask, are you aware of where the "Anthony" comes from? Are you aware of the earliest recorded instance that the academia has been able to verify for "Anthony"? It is the 19th century, specifically in the "Notes of Africa" written by G. A. Robertson. Robertson's voyage (and the notes and map he produced) were mostly written in 1810s and published by 1819. I have full text copies of both the Notes of Africa and the writing regarding the voyage. They're sitting in my DropBox, if you'd like me to share.

It is in Robertson's map that the academia is able to verify the earliest use of "St Anthony" with respect to the river, which Robertson himself explicitly notes as being called "Andoney" by Europeans. You can see it on page 305. There are a number of things to note/observe about both Robertson and his statement.

1. Robertson was from England. To believe that Andoni was derived from Anthony would mean to believe that an English man would be both the first person to offer "Anthony" and also corrupt it to Andoni. I don't know about anyone else, but it would make no sense that someone would offer both the first noted instance of "St Anthony" and in the same work, corrupt it to Andoni.

2. Thanks to Robertson's own notes and writings about his own voyage, we know that #1 above (Andoni derived from Anthony) could not possibly be correct. Robertson's statements on page 305 of his Notes on Africa are rather clear. Basic English comprehension tells us that the clause "called by Europeans Bonny and Andoney" suggests Andoney to have been the preferred nomenclature at the time, and the usage of "St Anthony" perhaps his own introduction.

3. We can be relatively sure of the conclusion in #2 above (that he likely introduced St. Anthony), because the academia has found no maps prior to his time that mention "St Anthony". In fact, the previous map (done by James Barbot, 1699 - over a hundred years before Robertson's time) uses "Rio Dony" (a.k.a The River Dony).

What does all this mean? Andoni (Andoney) predates Anthony. Dony predates Andoney. It is well-established in the traditions of Obolo people that the Ijaw are the ones specifically known to refer to them as "Idoni", from which Barbot derived "Dony". By what basis would Barbot have had to refer to the Obolo as "Dony" and the river as "Rio Dony"? Both of these exist explicitly in Ijaw and Obolo oral traditions as "Idoni" and "Idontoro" (Idoni River) respectively.

So no, Andoni is not derived from "Anthony". In short, it is indefensible to make such a claim when both oral traditions and European voyage records indicate otherwise.

SlayerForever:
It is yet an Englishman in the person of Crow that said it is Anthony and I'm sticking with that.

ChinenyeN:
The same Hugh Crow who's memoir was written and published 20 years after Robertson provided "St Anthony", making him an even less reliable source on this matter. That is who you are sticking with? You're chosing to stick to something so indefensible? In that case, I guess there is nothing more to be said to you then. You're clearly choosing to be obstinate, so I will simply leave it at that. We can return to the topic at hand so I can see your compilation and interpretations regarding Bonny culture.

SlayerForever:
I'm sure you'll be here to argue as usual

ChinenyeN:
That depends on two things. 1) How much energy I have for the day, 2) How indefensible your statements may be. Other than that, for the most part, I haven't nitpicked at much of what you've said. Only one specific thing (i.e. Agbaye). Everything else I've given you kudos for, but of course, this is how you chose to remember our interaction.

SlayerForever:
Yes I'm obstinate and not easily convinced. You should have figured by now.

ChinenyeN:
Oh, trust me, I recall. We had quite a nice and revealing conversation a while back about language, ancestry and how to delineate the surviving speech forms. It showed just how obstinate you could be until you do your own research that confirms something. I don't know if you recall. So I'm not surprised, hence why I'm choosing now to simply leave it as it is and allow you the space and time needed to research for your own sake.

SlayerForever:
*Thinking*

I can't recall at the moment. I will check my history.

ChinenyeN:
https://www.nairaland.com/6490424/how-correct-igbo-dialect-grouping

Ekealterego:
Always writing one Ijawcentric Alagoa inspired rubbish.

Andonni is not shredded in mystery or illusioned in Secrecy. The wars with Bonny and the culture featured as well as any other group on the coast.

The earliest recording of Andonni was Dony (by James Barbot in 1699).
We assume that Barbot wrote Igbos as Hickbaus and Okrika as Creeka. So, let's leave that aside.

However, let's move further the next generation of literatures/history of Andonni, Captain John Adams (1823) or Crow (1831) to Clarke who recorded their language (a few years after Crow) to the Lander brothers, Oldfield and Laird and Baikie, they all recorded an penned down the A in Andonni.

Their language recorded and their people seen as an extention of the Mokos (Mocoes) i.e Ibibiods, Ogonis (to some extent etc. Andonni people did not have any business with "Ijaw" as it was known then. Obolo rather is the centre point from Efik to the east, to Ogbia (not the political ijaw Ogbia) to the west.

One cannot deny that the Andonnis are one of the founding group or related with the Abuas up until Ogbia and occupied many places that is known as Brass today, who still maintain a native Obololike language (not in any way Ijaw or Ijoid)

Talking of Etymology, the natives spelt out their names quite well to Barbot and later to John Adams and Clarke or even later Oldfield and Baikie.

Clarke, recorded words with I, like "Ibo", Igede, and the others, so letter "I" was never his problem.

If anything, going by spelling conventions then, A was added to N in some cases, or "un" in place of "N" like Ungwa (Koelle).
There is no way on this earth, I would have gone missing from Andonni, rather, the other possible name would be "Ndonni", a letter "N" less than what Barbot spelt as "Dony".

That's how you expressed that Ndoki was generated from an Ijaw word, following Alagoa's fraudulent imagination.

okeyglm:
this is work ohanaeze ndi Igbo is supposed to be doing. bringing together all the Igbo speaking areas but unfortunately they not interested in that.

SlayerForever:
Thank you. We are moving.


Ekealterego
Bkayyy
Fejoku
Beneli
OfoIgbo
Ezecanada

SlayerForever:
Is Obolo's ancestry in doubt? Surely not.

Obolo are obviously Ibibiod with a mix of Igbo. It's plausible to have one or two brass features but that's as far as brass goes in Obolo.

Ekealterego:
Yes, Obolo is obviously Ibibiod (Lower Cross), it was ChinenyeN who claimed that the name for the Andonnis (Obolo people in Rivers state) came from Ijaws.
Yes, Obolo got some Igbo influence too, especially, Andonni. Possibly Aro or Anam.
Their word for One is "ge" or some say, "nge". and three as Ita. Same with many groups in Abia, like Aro, some Bende etc.

The influence on these examples could also be the other way around.

ChinenyeN:
You must be dense, Ekealterego. I would have liked to engage, but you have lost the benefit of the doubt in my eyes, because of your obsession with Alagoa. You're so obsessed that you failed to see that nothing in my statements to SlayerForever in this thread has been Alagoa-inspired. Where you even quoted me was not anywhere near Alagoa-inspired. In fact, I am one of the earliest people on NL to even discuss the Ijaw reauthorization of the 1930s - 1970s (which includes Alagoa's writings). My NL post history is open for all to view and confirm this.

Anyhow, get out of my face, owhno. Have a seat somewhere and stop wasting SlayerForever's so far great attempt at providing defensible materials in this thread. If you want me to ever respond to you again in good faith on this forum, then earn the benefit of the doubt in my eyes, owhnoghowhno nnu la gh. I gala di l'ikohnu nkohnu du gbuo.

SlayerForever:
It is yet an Englishman in the person of Crow that said it is Anthony and I'm sticking with that.

There are historical documents that show that on interview of the obolo people they could not proffer a meaning to the name Andoni. It appeared foreign.

For the Idoni I haven't come across it. The closest you're getting to something verifiable is the name Igoni still in use today by the Kalabari and co. That name is what they called the Ogoni people for being on good terms and it stuck. Until I get a very concrete varying view from what I've shared, any other thing is easy to dismiss for me my dear sister.

Ekealterego:
The earliest written record of Andonni was written by Barbot. Check out the Barbot book that I sent you one time.

James Barbot visited "Dony" and described what he saw there. Captain Adams was the second person that visited, 1823. Crow's work 9 years later draws heavily from Adams.

Then later, Clarke and Oldfield at same time with the Lander Brothers.

Ofodirinwa:
Bonny was settled in the 1500s by a group of settles from the Northern Igbo hinterland who named the land Okoloma after the Okolo which was abundant there and still is. If you don't know what Okolo is, or Okoloma means you don't know Bonny history.

Prior it was unsettled because there was no need to live there until the arrival of europeans as it proved to be a valuable access route to markets of the west through slavery, ivory and oil trade. Before the opening of the atlantic, there was nobody to trade with in that area

Igboid:
Don't create unnecessary ambiguity.
Bonny has nothing to do Northern Igbo(Anambra, Enugu and Ebonyi).
Bonny and Opobo is all about southern Igbo (Abia and Imo).
Thank you.

Ofodirinwa:
I take it you dont know what north means either?north of Bonny is Rivers Abia and Imo.

Please don't say what you just said to me in public.

Bonny was settled in the 1500s by a group of settles from the Northern Igbo hinterland