I keep wondering, is that not stressful?

If we were once in heaven before being born on earth. Then whats the essence of coming down to earth to struggle to go back to the same heaven?

Or perhaps, we were not in heaven before but made by GOD in our mothers womb, why not just kukuma put us in heaven direct instead of first branching earth and be given DO's and DONT's to enter heaven?

My case¡

I believe it has to do with free will.

MaDaRa01:
I keep wondering, is that not stressful?

If we were once in heaven before being born on earth. Then whats the essence of coming down to earth to struggle to go back to the same heaven?

Or perhaps, we were not in heaven before but made by GOD in our mothers womb, why not just kukuma put us in heaven direct instead of first branching earth and be given DO's and DONT's to enter heaven?

My case¡

Because when you land on earth you are converted by parents, neighbours, peers and everybody until you become evil like them, hence you are shut out from heaven as they have changed your citizenship.

And then you like your new citizenship as you familiarise yourself with it and become an expert in evilness and wickedness and Anti-Godness.

So, how can it be easy to change and return to your factory settings?

And how would heaven allow you back when you are not like them?

Jashub:
I believe it has to do with free will.

Could you please give more details about this freewill? I'm not very religious, but I hear people mention freewill all the time and the idea doesn't sit well with my understanding of the word. To me, there are two concepts in theology that makes the concept of freewill contentious.

The first is the concept of hell. If one is going to be punished for making certain choices, where then is the freewill? How is the presence of freewill different from the absence of it? How does deffered punishment imply freewill? If you're going to send me to jail for speaking against people in authority, would you say there's freedom of speech just because you postponed the imprisonment to a later time? In the Bible, some punishments were even immediate.

The second is the concept of omniscience. I wonder if free will can exist side by side with the idea that the creator already knows every single detail of the future. If my actions are predestined, it means my righteousness or lack of thereof is also predestined. Where then is the freewill?

@OP, sorry if this is a deviation from your subject.

Biology didn't say you came from heaven. Na your papa and mama born you. Sperm and egg.

MaDaRa01:
I keep wondering, is that not stressful?

If we were once in heaven before being born on earth. Then whats the essence of coming down to earth to struggle to go back to the same heaven?

Or perhaps, we were not in heaven before but made by GOD in our mothers womb, why not just kukuma put us in heaven direct instead of first branching earth and be given DO's and DONT's to enter heaven?

My case¡

God never intended the earth to be evil like it's today. Man was created to live on earth not heaven.
He created the first man to live in abundance, peace and happiness. Man was also created to live forever.

Satan tricked our first parents Adam and Eve. Adam sinned and through that, death, pain, struggle, evil came into the world.

Jehovah God is actually doing everything to restore earth back his original purpose for creating it.

God will carry out his will on earth through his kingdom that will be led by the powerful King, God's son, Jesus.
Satan will be destroyed, wicked people will also be destroyed and every form of evil will be no more.

There will be no more death, pain, struggle sickness, crying, famine, war etc.
God himself will live with his people.

Peace.

WoundedLamb:


Could you please give more details about this freewill? I'm not very religious, but I hear people mention freewill all the time and the idea doesn't sit well with my understanding of the word. To me, there are two concepts in theology that makes the concept of freewill contentious.

The first is the concept of hell. If one is going to be punished for making certain choices, where then is the freewill? How is the presence of freewill different from the absence of it? How does deffered punishment imply freewill? If you're going to send me to jail for speaking against people in authority, would you say there's freedom of speech just because you postponed the imprisonment to a later time? In the Bible, some punishments were even immediate.

The second is the concept of omniscience. I wonder if free will can exist side by side with the idea that the creator already knows every single detail of the future. If my actions are predestined, it means my righteousness or lack of thereof is also predestined. Where then is the freewill?

@OP, sorry if this is a deviation from your subject.

You are digressing the topic sire. Please stick to it .

Jashub:
You are digressing the topic sire. Please stick to it .

Well, I don't really think it's a total deviation. You mentioned freewill as the answer to OP's question and I'm saying the concept of freewill itself is questionable. I gave my reasons. It's okay if you don't have any response, just don't make it about the topic. The owner of the thread should be the one complaining. Besides, it's not practical to expect a thread like this not to branch out into multiple subtopics. Nevertheless, thanks for the response. Let's hope someone else has answers to my questions.

Happy Sunday.

[s]

WoundedLamb:


Well, I don't really think it's a total deviation. You mentioned freewill as the answer to OP's question and I'm saying the concept of freewill itself is questionable. I gave my reasons. It's okay if you don't have any response, just don't make it about the topic. The owner of the thread should be the one complaining. Besides, it's not practical to expect a thread like this not to branch out into multiple subtopics. Nevertheless, thanks for the response. Let's hope someone else has answers to my questions.

Happy Sunday.

[/s] You can create another thread for such discussions and I would be happy to oblige . But right now,the topic is far from what you are saying .

Jashub:
[s][/s] You can create another thread for such discussions and I would be happy to oblige . But right now,the topic is far from what you are saying .

And your answer "it think it has to do with freewill" is supposed to be sufficient and undisputed? Dude, please.

WoundedLamb:


And your answer "it think it has to do with freewill" is supposed to be sufficient and undisputed? Dude, please.

That was my opinion regarding the OP's discussion. Where is yours ?

Jashub:
That was my opinion regarding the OP's discussion. Where is yours ?

I have the same question as the OP and I came to read answers and ask questions where they aren't clear or convincing enough. That's what forums are all about. Not all of us pretend to have answers only to flare up when our answers are questioned. You mentioned freewill and asking you to defend it or explain further is a deviation. Sidesplitting.

WoundedLamb:


I have the same question as the OP and I came to read answers and ask questions where they aren't clear or convincing enough. That's what forums are all about. Not all of us pretend to have answers only to flare up when our answers are questioned. You mentioned freewill and asking you to defend it or explain further is a deviation. Sidesplitting.

Just hold on a minute . Please who is flaring up? And where did you get that notion from ? Because it certainly is not me.

Lastly , did you bother to read the rules regarding topics on this forum ? If you had, you would not be deviating this discussion with rants about unrelated issues

Jashub:
Just hold on a minute . Please who is flaring up? And where did you get that notion from ? Because it certainly is not me.

Lastly , did you bother to read the rules regarding topics on this forum ? If you had, you would not be deviating this discussion with rants about unrelated issues

Canceling my post is not flaring up enough? Perhaps, it is until I hear your voice before it can be termed so. Dude, you said freewill was your answer to the question. Explain how freewill works and how it addresses the question the OP is asking and let people ask questions. If you can't do that, you move on. Nobody is forcing you.

[s]

WoundedLamb:


Canceling my post is not flaring up enough? Perhaps, it is until I hear your voice before it can be termed so. Dude, you said freewill was your answer to the question. Explain how freewill works and how it addresses the question the OP is asking and let people ask questions. If you can't do that, you move on. Nobody is forcing you.

[/s] It seems you do not know the meaning of flaring up . Kindly look it up in the dictionary and compare that to what I have done . Secondly, you asked questions that were totally unrelated to the topic , so why would I engage you in such when that would be clearly deviation? Lastly , stick to the topic or shut up.

@ jashua @ wounded lamb Thanks for your input on the topic, i learnt one or two things. But please lets not start arguing about each other inputs. Thanks

MaDaRa01:
I keep wondering, is that not stressful?

1. If we were once in heaven before being born on earth. Then whats the essence of coming down to earth to struggle to go back to the same heaven?

2. Or perhaps, we were not in heaven before but made by GOD in our mothers womb, why not just kukuma put us in heaven direct instead of first branching earth and be given DO's and DONT's to enter heaven?

My case¡

1. You were never once in Heaven. You are created from the Physical elements of this here world just as Adam and every other human being who ever lived was.

7 Then the Lord God took dust from the ground and made a man - Genesis 2 vs 7

Jesus Christ affirmed this Truth of God.

6 The only life people get from their human parents is physical. But the new life that the Spirit gives a person is spiritual. - John 3 vs 6

. Your life begins here and so also your suffering which began after Adam fell, and God rendered man and His works unholy, along with His blessings for man, in Genesis 3 vs 16 - 22

2. God created all of this to mine for Himself Sons of God - those who will choose of their own will to live their lives in continuous submission and obedience of His teachings and commandments, no matter what. So, numbers is not what God is out for here but quality.

Jashub:
[s][/s] It seems you do not know the meaning of flaring up . Kindly look it up in the dictionary and compare that to what I have done . Secondly, you asked questions that were totally unrelated to the topic , so why would I engage you in such when that would be clearly deviation? Lastly , stick to the topic or shut up.

You're canceling my post, telling me to shut up but aren't flaring up. I hear you. You're so interested in not deviating the thread that you've made several posts already debating that and the definition of flare-up. You've almost covered the entire front page with posts that don't answer the OP's question when it could have taken you one post to answer my questions within the limits of the thread. Or are you saying there's no room to discuss freewill here even when you've identified it as the answer the original question? Freewill is your answer to OP's question but talking about it is a total deviation? Well, I hear you. Like I said, it's a forum and you're not obliged to answer anyone.

[s]

WoundedLamb:


You're canceling my post, telling me to shut up but aren't flaring up. I hear you. You're so interested in not deviating the thread that you've made several posts already debating that and the definition of flare-up. You've almost covered the entire front page with posts that don't answer the OP's question when it could have taken you one post to answer my questions within the limits of the thread. Or are you saying there's no room to discuss freewill here even when you've identified it as the answer the original question? Freewill is your answer to OP's question but talking about it is a total deviation? Well, I hear you. Like I said, it's a forum and you're not obliged to answer anyone.

[/s] Oga, stick to the topic .

Kobojunkie:

2. God created all of this to mine for Himself Sons of God - those who will choose of their own will to live their lives in continuous submission and obedience of His teachings and commandments, no matter what. So, numbers is not what God is out for here but quality.

A question from this answer. If there's no law or rules or commandment, there won't have been sin that will hinder us from entering heaven. It all started in the beginning, when GOD planted the trees that they shouldnt eat from, if he hadn't planted it there wont have been a sin of disobedience and the devil wont have found a way to influence eve. My question is why all these tests from GOD, from planting the tree in the garden? Lets not talk about free will here. God is omniscient, he knows all past, present and future, why plant the tree if he want them to serve him faithfully?

peace

Jashub:
[s][/s] Oga, stick to the topic .

Of course. I wasn't expecting any logical response since freewill - your own answer - is obviously considered off-topic at the moment.

How will gold be purified if it doesn't pass through fire? Everyone who will be worthy of His throne, His divine nature, and the world to come must be tested and sifted like chaff from the main thing.

MaDaRa01:
I keep wondering, is that not stressful?

If we were once in heaven before being born on earth. Then whats the essence of coming down to earth to struggle to go back to the same heaven?

Or perhaps, we were not in heaven before but made by GOD in our mothers womb, why not just kukuma put us in heaven direct instead of first branching earth and be given DO's and DONT's to enter heaven?

My case¡

MaDaRa01:
1. A question from this answer. If there's no law or rules or commandment, there won't have been sin that will hinder us from entering heaven. It all started in the beginning, when GOD planted the trees that they shouldnt eat from, if he hadn't planted it there wont have been a sin of disobedience and the devil wont have found a way to influence eve.

2. My question is why all these tests from GOD, from planting the tree in the garden? Lets not talk about free will here. God is omniscient, he knows all past, present and future, why plant the tree if he want them to serve him faithfully?
peace

1. It did not all start when God planted those trees. God never intended to simply create man without testing him, man. Those trees were intended to test each man's willingness to obey God. Again, God didn't want sons of men. Instead He wanted Sons of God,this from before the beginning.

2. Like I said, all the tests/Laws are put there by God to test men, and harvest from among men the quality of beings He wants - Sons of God.

Kobojunkie:
1. It did not all start when God planted those trees. God never intended to simply create man without testing him, man. Those trees were intended to test each man's willingness to obey God. Again, God didn't want sons of men. Instead He wanted Sons of God,this from before the beginning.

2. Like I said, all the tests/Laws are put there by God to test men, and harvest from among men the quality of beings He wants - Sons of God.

I'm learning sir, i appreciate.
The angels also, are they created with tests for them? Considering the fallen angel who rebel against God, and the other angels who followed him in his rebel....

Kobojunkie:
1. You were never once in Heaven. You are created from the Physical elements of this here world just as Adam and every other human being who ever lived was.
Jesus Christ affirmed this Truth of God. . Your life begins here and so also your suffering which began after Adam fell, and God rendered man and His works unholy, along with His blessings for man, in Genesis 3 vs 16 - 22

2. God created all of this to mine for Himself Sons of God - those who will choose of their own will to live their lives in continuous submission and obedience of His teachings and commandments, no matter what. So, numbers is not what God is out for here but quality.

Can you answer woundedlamb question on freewill

ifyken:

Can you answer woundedlamb question on freewill

What men label "Freewill" begins and ends with one's ability to believe or reject God outrightly. That is all it really is - nothing more. So don't be deceived by the numerous academic debates over freewill as it all boils down to simply a choice between accepting God or rejecting God.

In scripture, all men are cursed from their birth, so the only choice available is to either do as God commands or to perish at the end. Those who reject Him have their lights extinguished forever they die since they cease to exist as God promised them they would while those who believe in God go on to compete for a chance at eternity in either Heaven or Hell.

MaDaRa01:
I'm learning sir, i appreciate.
The angels also, are they created with tests for them? Considering the fallen angel who rebel against God, and the other angels who followed him in his rebel....

No, Angels, according to Scripture, are preprogrammed with God's knowledge of Truth from their creation so they are sort of like Robots who are created for a set purpose, and exist for the purpose for which they were created.

The myth that Angels rebelled and all the other junk are actually foreign to Christian scripture. They are stories stolen from Pagan myths and used to delude folks away from God's Truth.

cornelboy:


God never intended the earth to be evil like it's today. Man was created to live on earth not heaven.
He created the first man to live in abundance, peace and happiness. Man was also created to live forever.

Satan tricked our first parents Adam and Eve. Adam sinned and through that, death, pain, struggle, evil came into the world.

Jehovah God is actually doing everything to restore earth back his original purpose for creating it.

God will carry out his will on earth through his kingdom that will be led by the powerful King, God's son, Jesus.
Satan will be destroyed, wicked people will also be destroyed and every form of evil will be no more.

There will be no more death, pain, struggle sickness, crying, famine, war etc.
God himself will live with his people.

Peace.

brother something has been bothering me...is God that weaked to watch us burn in hell fire?

Kobojunkie:
What men label "Freewill" begins and ends with one's ability to believe or reject God outrightly. That is all it really is - nothing more. So don't be deceived by the numerous academic debated over freewill as it all books down to simply a choice between accepting God or rejecting God.

In scripture, all men are cursed from their birth, so the only choice available is to either do as God commands or to perish at the end. Those who reject Him have their lights extinguished forever they die since they cease to exist as God promised them they would while those who believe in God go on to compete for a chance at eternity in either Heaven or Hell.

Thank you, Kobojunkie. I also believe the freewill concept is more man-made than scriptural cause we're given commandments which we must follow or get severely punished for not doing so.

I'm interested in the origin of the concept, how it got into religious teachings and which part of the Bible is used to back it up. But I've been reprimanded for going off-topic, so I'll leave that for another day.

@ifyken, thank you for picking interest in my questions.

MaDaRa01:
I keep wondering, is that not stressful?

If we were once in heaven before being born on earth. Then whats the essence of coming down to earth to struggle to go back to the same heaven?

Or perhaps, we were not in heaven before but made by GOD in our mothers womb, why not just kukuma put us in heaven direct instead of first branching earth and be given DO's and DONT's to enter heaven?

My case¡

We were not once in heaven, You were created for one purpose to glorify God, however you and everyone else have sinned and fall short of God's glory.
Struggle to make heaven? Anyone one who is not born again can see the kingdom.

There is only one way to be born again and that is through faith in Jesus christ.

Gben5:
brother something has been bothering me...is God that weaked to watch us burn in hell fire?

You see God didn't create us and then create hell fire so that when we disobey him and die, we would go to hell fire.

Hell fire was invented by the Roman Catholics religion. To scare people and coerce them into converting to Christianity.

If you want to learn about what the Bible really says, I'm available.
Jah bless bro.

Steep:

We were not once in heaven, You were created for one purpose to glorify God, however you and everyone else have sinned and fall short of God's glory.
Struggle to make heaven? Anyone one who is not born again can see the kingdom.

There is only one way to be born again and that is through faith in Jesus christ.

We were not once in heaven but because we've fallen short of God glory, we now deserve heaven right?