May GOD BLESS YOU ALL,my teaching today is abt the coming of christ,brethren jesus is calling and knocking on your door to open up,dont be a lukewarm or unbeliever,those of u who believe jesus is not the son of GOD&dont exists you are being deceived hell and heaven is real for those that doesn't beleive,give your life to christ and be saved,flee from sin,dont be deceived be watchful and prayerful this is endtime,GOD is telling you to repent and dont ignore if you are willing to accept christ say this lord jesus i believe you died on the cross and rose and you are the son of GOD, forgive me my sin and wash me,i accept u as my lord and persnal saviour thank u for accepting me in jesus name amen,so brethren live a holy life dont be a backslider GOD BLESS YOU AMEN

AllenforGOD:
May GOD BLESS YOU ALL,my teaching today is abt the coming of christ,brethren jesus is calling and knocking on your door to open up,dont be a lukewarm or unbeliever,those of u who believe jesus is not the son of GOD&dont exists you are being deceived hell and heaven is real for those that doesn't beleive,give your life to christ and be saved,flee from sin,dont be deceived be watchful and prayerful this is endtime,GOD is telling you to repent and dont ignore if you are willing to accept christ say this lord jesus i believe you died on the cross and rose and you are the son of GOD, forgive me my sin and wash me,i accept u as my lord and persnal saviour thank u for accepting me in jesus name amen,so brethren live a holy life dont be a backslider GOD BLESS YOU AMEN

There are actually two comings. The first is the rapture. He will descend only as far as the sky. And the dead in Christ we rise first and those alive at his coming will be caught up to meet the Lord in the cloud who will then take us to heaven.

The other is when he comes to establish his millennium reign on earth. He will defeat first the beast and the false Prophet revealed in Revelation 13. Satan will be thrown into the bottomless pit and bound for the 1,000 year period of Jesus reign on earth. This second phenomenon is what is rightly referred to as the second coming of Christ. In this case, he will come visibly and land on the earth.

Ken4Christ:


There are actually two comings. The first is the rapture. He will descend only as far as the sky. And the dead in Christ we rise first and those alive at his coming will be caught up to meet the Lord in the cloud who will then take us to heaven.

The other is when he comes to establish his millennium reign on earth. He will defeat first the beast and the false Prophet revealed in Revelation 13. Satan will be thrown into the bottomless pit and bound for the 1,000 year period of Jesus reign on earth. This second phenomenon is what is rightly referred to as the second coming of Christ. In this case, he will come visibly and land on the earth.

Rapture will happen after the great tribulation, not before it.

OkCornel:


Rapture will happen after the great tribulation, not before it.

You are not correct. This error is coming from the misunderstanding of what Jesus said in Matthew 24. Jesus was actually revealing what will befall the Jews in future. He was not talking about the church because the church was not yet established.

God has a separate calendar for the Jews and a separate one for the church.

It is the rapture of the Jews that will take place after the great tribulation they will go through. And only 144,000 Jews will be raptured. They were sealed in Revelation, chapter 7 and were raptured in Revelation chapter 14.

But the church faithful saints will be raptured before the first great tribulation period that will be targeted on the saints left behind.

This great tribulation is revealed in Revelation, Chapter 7. It reads;

Revelation 7:9-14
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, A GREAT MULTITUDE, WHICH NO MAN COULD NUMBER, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Meanwhile, before this tribulation period, the raptured Saints were already in heaven. This was revealed in Revelation, Chapter 4. They are the four beast or four living creatures before the throne of God. This was confirmed in Revelation, Chapter 5;

Revelation 5:8-9
8 And when he had taken the book, THE FOUR BEASTS and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. note

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and HAST REDEEMED US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Verses 8 & 9 says that the four beast and the twenty four elders sang a new song. The lyrics of the song reveals that they are the redeemed of the Lord. And they were before the throne singing this song. So, it means they were already in heaven before the great tribulation Saints joined them in Revelation, Chapter 7.

In summary, their are two future rapture and two future great tribulations. The first has to do with the church while the second has to do with the Jews. That of the church will take place before the great tribulation but that of the Jews will be after the great tribulation.

Only 144,000 Jews will be raptured. These are the elect that Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24.

So, the rapture of the church could happen anytime and the great tribulation will be after it.

It is my earnest prayer that the church will understand this truth. I ask for grace to put this end time event in a book that will unveil this truth in greater details.

OkCornel:

Rapture will happen after the great tribulation, not before it.

The word RAPTURE is nowhere in the Bible but a dogma thought to have been based on what some religionists read in the Bible.

Ken4Christ:


You are not correct. This error is coming from the misunderstanding of what Jesus said in Matthew 24. Jesus was actually revealing what will befall the Jews in future. He was not talking about the church because the church was not yet established.

God has a separate calendar for the Jews and a separate one for the church.

It is the rapture of the Jews that will take place after the great tribulation they will go through. And only 144,000 Jews will be raptured. They were sealed in Revelation, chapter 7 and were raptured in Revelation chapter 14.

But the church faithful saints will be raptured before the first great tribulation period that will be targeted on the saints left behind.

This great tribulation is revealed in Revelation, Chapter 7. It reads;

Revelation 7:9-14
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, A GREAT MULTITUDE, WHICH NO MAN COULD NUMBER, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Meanwhile, before this tribulation period, the raptured Saints were already in heaven. This was revealed in Revelation, Chapter 4. They are the four beast or four living creatures before the throne of God. This was confirmed in Revelation, Chapter 5;

Revelation 5:8-9
8 And when he had taken the book, THE FOUR BEASTS and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. note

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and HAST REDEEMED US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Verses 8 & 9 says that the four beast and the twenty four elders sang a new song. The lyrics of the song reveals that they are the redeemed of the Lord. And they were before the throne singing this song. So, it means they were already in heaven before the great tribulation Saints joined them in Revelation, Chapter 7.

In summary, their are two future rapture and two future great tribulations. The first has to do with the church while the second has to do with the Jews. That of the church will take place before the great tribulation but that of the Jews will be after the great tribulation.

Only 144,000 Jews will be raptured. These are the elect that Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24.

So, the rapture of the church could happen anytime and the great tribulation will be after it.

It is my earnest prayer that the church will understand this truth. I ask for grace to put this end time event in a book that will unveil this truth in greater details.

A) Paul mentioned believers dead and alive will be resurrected and transformed at the “last trumpet” in 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52. There is no trumpet that’ll be blown after the one in Matthew 24 v 29-31. Jesus mentioned this trumpet will be blown “IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS”

B) Apostle Peter encouraged all believers to look forward to the day of the Lord.

2 Peter 3 v 10-14;
10 But THE DAY OF THE LORD will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 AS YOU LOOK FORWARD TO THE DAY OF GOD AND THE SPEED OF ITS COMING. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

C) Apostle Paul clearly mentioned that the day of the Lord will not come until the Antichrist shows up;

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND OUR BEING GATHERED TO HIM, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Apostle Paul and Peter’s letters were not directed to Jews only.

MaxInDHouse:


The word RAPTURE is nowhere in the Bible but a dogma thought to have been based on what some religionists read in the Bible.

I agree…actually “first resurrection” is more appropriate to use.

OkCornel:

I agree…actually “first resurrection” is more appropriate to use.

YES! That's exactly what the Bible calls it as the founder of Christianity (Jesus) emphasized that some among his disciples will rule with him in another place while their rulership will be extended to the earth. We all know that resurrection is the only hope for the dead but then there's going to be the first and second resurrection. The first (according to Jesus) will be spiritual where only those involved will know as they're taken away from the earth as spirit beings but the second resurrection will be physical where the inhabitants of the earth will see resurrected ones physically!

Ken4Christ:


Meanwhile, before this tribulation period, the raptured Saints were already in heaven. This was revealed in Revelation, Chapter 4. They are the four beast or four living creatures before the throne of God. This was confirmed in Revelation, Chapter 5;

Revelation 5:8-9
8 And when he had taken the book, THE FOUR BEASTS and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. note

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and HAST REDEEMED US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Verses 8 & 9 says that the four beast and the twenty four elders sang a new song. The lyrics of the song reveals that they are the redeemed of the Lord. And they were before the throne singing this song. So, it means they were already in heaven before the great tribulation Saints joined them in Revelation, Chapter 7.

In summary, their are two future rapture and two future great tribulations. The first has to do with the church while the second has to do with the Jews. That of the church will take place before the great tribulation but that of the Jews will be after the great tribulation.

Only 144,000 Jews will be raptured. These are the elect that Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24.

So, the rapture of the church could happen anytime and the great tribulation will be after it.

Please take a look at the bolded part of your response. Are you telling us the “raptured saints” are the four living creatures before the throne of God? Really?

Do you remember the book of Revelation has a curse on those who add to or remove from it?

Before you reply, pause and reflect thoroughly on what you’re saying here.

There is only one great tribulation, not two. The time of Jacob’s troubles is a part of that great tribulation which will come upon the entire world.

Matthew 24 v 21;
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and “never to be equaled again”

Read these words slowly “great distress unequalled from the beginning of the world, never to be equalled again” clearly tells you it’s only one great tribulation. If there were two future great tribulations…then that’ll be contradicting what Jesus said, as the great tribulation would be equalled by another.

Those choice of words points to a singular exclusive time period.

OkCornel:


Please take a look at the bolded part of your response. Are you telling us the “raptured saints” are the four living creatures before the throne of God? Really?

Do you remember the book of Revelation has a curse on those who add to or remove from it?

Before you reply, pause and reflect thoroughly on what you’re saying here.

There is only one great tribulation, not two. The time of Jacob’s troubles is a part of that great tribulation which will come upon the entire world.

Matthew 24 v 21;
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and “never to be equaled again”

Read these words slowly “great distress unequalled from the beginning of the world, never to be equalled again” clearly tells you it’s only one great tribulation. If there were two future great tribulations…then that’ll be contradicting what Jesus said, as the great tribulation would be equalled by another.

Those choice of words points to a singular exclusive time period.

At the time Jesus made his remarks, the church was still a mystery. Even this mystery was hidden from our Lord Jesus. This was why two of his prophecies failed.

The two failed prophecies are;

Matthew 16:27-28
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Those he was talking to are already dead and gone but he is yet to come. Our Lord Jesus did not see the church age until his resurrection. The father hid it from him.

The second one is;

Matthew 24:30-34
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. note

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. note

34 Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.

All what Jesus said are yet to happened but that generation is long dead.

Even during the earthly ministry of our Lord Jesus, he said;

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent BUT UNTO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.

So, he saw his ministry at that time limited to only Israel. He did not know that God had a bigger plan to include the Gentiles.

Concerning the four beast or the four living creatures, I did not add anything. The book of revelation itself revealed that they are the Saints;

Revelation 5:8-9
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: FOR THOU WAST SLAIN, AND HAST REDEEMED US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Verse 9 says that they are the redeemed of the Lord.

The first beast was like a lion - These were the Christians of the early church.

The second beast was like a calf - These were the Christians during the time idolatry crept into the church.

The third beast was like mere men - This was the church during the time of reformation. But since they lacked the power of the Holy Spirit, they were just like mere men.

The forth beast is like the eagle - This is the church that will be alive till the rapture time. And it refers to this present age.

OkCornel:


Please take a look at the bolded part of your response. Are you telling us the “raptured saints” are the four living creatures before the throne of God? Really?

Do you remember the book of Revelation has a curse on those who add to or remove from it?

Before you reply, pause and reflect thoroughly on what you’re saying here.

There is only one great tribulation, not two. The time of Jacob’s troubles is a part of that great tribulation which will come upon the entire world.

Matthew 24 v 21;
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and “never to be equaled again”

Read these words slowly “great distress unequalled from the beginning of the world, never to be equalled again” clearly tells you it’s only one great tribulation. If there were two future great tribulations…then that’ll be contradicting what Jesus said, as the great tribulation would be equalled by another.

Those choice of words points to a singular exclusive time period.

The distress will affect the entire world but the church will not be here when it happens.

OkCornel:


A) Paul mentioned believers dead and alive will be resurrected and transformed at the “last trumpet” in 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52. There is no trumpet that’ll be blown after the one in Matthew 24 v 29-31. Jesus mentioned this trumpet will be blown “IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS”

B) Apostle Peter encouraged all believers to look forward to the day of the Lord.

2 Peter 3 v 10-14;
10 But THE DAY OF THE LORD will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 AS YOU LOOK FORWARD TO THE DAY OF GOD AND THE SPEED OF ITS COMING. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

C) Apostle Paul clearly mentioned that the day of the Lord will not come until the Antichrist shows up;

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND OUR BEING GATHERED TO HIM, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Apostle Paul and Peter’s letters were not directed to Jews only.

The day of the Lord Peter and Paul talked about is referring to the second coming to the Lord and not the rapture of the church.

But the rapture of the 144,000 Jews will take place after the great tribulation period. This is why the church is confused about the actual time of the rapture. Jesus was not referring to the church because the church of the Gentiles was still a mystery at that time.

May God give the church understanding.

Even in the book of Revelation, the tribulation saints of the church are revealed in revelation chapter 7 while the tribulation saints of the Jews in revelation chapter 13.

Ken4Christ:


At the time Jesus made his remarks, the church was still a mystery. Even this mystery was hidden from our Lord Jesus. This was why two of his prophecies failed.

The two failed prophecies are;

Matthew 16:27-28
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Those he was talking to are already dead and gone but he is yet to come. Our Lord Jesus did not see the church age until his resurrection. The father hid it from him.

The second one is;

Matthew 24:30-34
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. note

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. note

34 Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.

All what Jesus said are yet to happened but that generation is long dead.

Oh nice, Jesus gave failed prophecies. Quite interesting.

Ken4Christ:

Even during the earthly ministry of our Lord Jesus, he said;

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent BUT UNTO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.

So, he saw his ministry at that time limited to only Israel. He did not know that God had a bigger plan to include the Gentiles.

Really? Jesus did not know God had a bigger plan to include the Gentiles? but this same Jesus gave his Apostles the instruction to preach the gospel and make disciples of all nations hmmm?


Matthew 28 v 19;
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Acts 1 v 8;
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Ken4Christ:

Concerning the four beast or the four living creatures, I did not add anything. The book of revelation itself revealed that they are the Saints;

Revelation 5:8-9
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: FOR THOU WAST SLAIN, AND HAST REDEEMED US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Verse 9 says that they are the redeemed of the Lord.

Wait a minute, so the four living creatures prophet Ezekiel saw in Ezekiel Chapter 1 which are the same creatures Apostle John saw in Revelation 5 were "the raptured saints" hmmm?

First off, the bible was not originally written in English. I'll put up a direct translation of those verses from the Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

Meanwhile, when it is DIRECTLY TRANSLATED from Koine Greek to English, this is how Revelation 5 v 9 is written.
"And they are singing a song new saying Worthy are You to take the scroll and to open the seals of it because You were slain and You purchased to God by the blood of You out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and You have made them to the God of us a kingdom and priests and they will reign upon the earth"

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/5.htm

Now you see how the original version of a message can be twisted out of context by inserting or removing a few words? or even moving around punctuation marks... read that verse in the original language it was written (likely Koine Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic) and search for a direct translation to English

I will post the direct translation for Aramaic and Hebrew in subsequent posts, and the links as well. To avoid being banned by the spambots.

Ken4Christ:

The first beast was like a lion - These were the Christians of the early church.

The second beast was like a calf - These were the Christians during the time idolatry crept into the church.

The third beast was like mere men - This was the church during the time of reformation. But since they lacked the power of the Holy Spirit, they were just like mere men.

The forth beast is like the eagle - This is the church that will be alive till the rapture time. And it refers to this present age.

Please where in the scriptures can we get this interpretation? Or is this your own insertion into the book of Revelation? (Eisegesis)

Ken4Christ:


The day of the Lord Peter and Paul talked about is referring to the second coming to the Lord and not the rapture of the church.

But the rapture of the 144,000 Jews will take place after the great tribulation period. This is why the church is confused about the actual time of the rapture. Jesus was not referring to the church because the church of the Gentiles was still a mystery at that time.

May God give the church understanding.

Even in the book of Revelation, the tribulation saints of the church are revealed in revelation chapter 7 while the tribulation saints of the Jews in revelation chapter 13.

So why was Apostle Peter encouraging believers to look forward to THE DAY OF THE LORD if they are not going to be around hmmm?

2 Peter 3 v 10-14;
10 But THE DAY OF THE LORD will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 AS YOU LOOK FORWARD TO THE DAY OF GOD AND THE SPEED OF ITS COMING. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

AND WHY DID Apostle Paul clearly warn the church that THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL NOT COME UNTIL the Antichrist is revealed.

Ken4Christ:


The day of the Lord Peter and Paul talked about is referring to the second coming to the Lord and not the rapture of the church.

But the rapture of the 144,000 Jews will take place after the great tribulation period. This is why the church is confused about the actual time of the rapture. Jesus was not referring to the church because the church of the Gentiles was still a mystery at that time.

May God give the church understanding.

Even in the book of Revelation, the tribulation saints of the church are revealed in revelation chapter 7 while the tribulation saints of the Jews in revelation chapter 13.

Please read 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 slowly. In the first verse, it talks about the coming of our Lord Jesus AND OUR BEING GATHERED UNTO HIM That right there is talking about the first resurrection, which will not happen until after the Antichrist shows up in verse 3-4.

And to further prove this, Revelation 20 already tells you when the first resurrection would happen. After the great tribulation, not before it.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 further states this resurrection would happen AT THE LAST TRUMPET (The word last trumpet is self explanatory. It simply means there will be no trumpet blown after that one) That is the trumpet blown at the second coming of Christ in Matthew 24 v 29-31. Immediately after the tribulation of those days.

But if you still insist the last trump is before the great tribulation, then the one blown in Matthew 24 v 29-31, or the 7 blown in Revelation are what? Trumpets after the last trump?

OkCornel:


Please read 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 slowly. In the first verse, it talks about the coming of our Lord Jesus AND OUR BEING GATHERED UNTO HIM That right there is talking about the first resurrection, which will not happen until after the Antichrist shows up in verse 3-4.

And to further prove this, Revelation 20 already tells you when the first resurrection would happen. After the great tribulation, not before it.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 further states this resurrection would happen AT THE LAST TRUMPET (The word last trumpet is self explanatory. It simply means there will be no trumpet blown after that one) That is the trumpet blown at the second coming of Christ in Matthew 24 v 29-31. Immediately after the tribulation of those days.

But if you still insist the last trump is before the great tribulation, then the one blown in Matthew 24 v 29-31, or the 7 blown in Revelation are what? Trumpets after the last trump?

Apostle Paul is still talking about the second coming of Christ which is different from the rapture. The gathering together unto him is not referring to the rapture but the saints that will come with him at his coming.

The rapture is not a gathering together. We will be caught up during the rapture. The dead in Christ will rise first.

In any case, the book of revelation is the most reliable reference on this subject since it is a direct revelation from our Lord Jesus.

And I have shown you the two rapture from the book of revelation and the two tribulation periods.

The last Trinidad that will sound has nothing to do with the seven trumpet judgment in the book of revelation.

Presently, trumpet sounds have already been heard in some cities of the world before now. You can Google it to find out. No one knows when the last one will sound. But it will certainly be before the great tribulation period.

OkCornel:


Please read 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 slowly. In the first verse, it talks about the coming of our Lord Jesus AND OUR BEING GATHERED UNTO HIM That right there is talking about the first resurrection, which will not happen until after the Antichrist shows up in verse 3-4.

And to further prove this, Revelation 20 already tells you when the first resurrection would happen. After the great tribulation, not before it.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 further states this resurrection would happen AT THE LAST TRUMPET (The word last trumpet is self explanatory. It simply means there will be no trumpet blown after that one) That is the trumpet blown at the second coming of Christ in Matthew 24 v 29-31. Immediately after the tribulation of those days.

But if you still insist the last trump is before the great tribulation, then the one blown in Matthew 24 v 29-31, or the 7 blown in Revelation are what? Trumpets after the last trump?

The phrase gathering together unto him is not talking about the rapture of the church but the assembly of believers together both those in heaven and on earth.

Jesus is not coming back alone. He is coming with saints from heaven and the saints on earth will be joined together with the saints in heaven.

Revelation 19:11-14
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 AND THE ARMIES WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM UPON WHITE HORSES, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The seven trumpet in the book of revelation is a trumpet of judgment. It has nothing to do with the trumpet sound that will precede the rapture. And the trumpet of the rapture will not be heard by everyone. Only the dead in Christ and the faithful saints that are alive will hear it.

The book of revelation has clearly revealed the chronology of events and I have shown you the two rapture and the two tribulation period as unveiled in it.

OkCornel:


So why was Apostle Peter encouraging believers to look forward to THE DAY OF THE LORD if they are not going to be around hmmm?

2 Peter 3 v 10-14;
10 But THE DAY OF THE LORD will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 AS YOU LOOK FORWARD TO THE DAY OF GOD AND THE SPEED OF ITS COMING. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

AND WHY DID Apostle Paul clearly warn the church that THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL NOT COME UNTIL the Antichrist is revealed.

The second coming of the Lord is a day we are also looking forward to. But it will happen after the great tribulation period. The rapture of the church will take place before the great tribulation period.

During the rapture, Jesus is not coming down to the earth. We will be caught up to meet him in the air. He will not be involved in any battle during the rapture of the church.

But when he comes back, he will land on the earth to destroy the wicked one and end the world system of government. But before the destruction, 144,000 Jews will be raptured immediately after the great tribulation period of the Jews.

The first resurrection in Chapter 20 refers to the Jews who were killed during the tribulation period. They will rise and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. And the saints that came with Christ from heaven will also reign with Christ on earth. This is the gathering unto Jesus Paul talked about. And Jesus will reward the Saints from heaven with rulership over nations. As he sits upon his throne in Jerusalem, the rest of us will rule other nations. No unbeliever will have any position of authority.

Ken4Christ:


The phrase gathering together unto him is not talking about the rapture of the church but the assembly of believers together both those in heaven and on earth.

Revelation 19:11-14
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 AND THE ARMIES WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM UPON WHITE HORSES, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Can you show us where Apostle Paul had a revelation of the assembly of believers together "both those in heaven and earth" in any of his letters? All instances of the first resurrection he wrote of refers to dead believers and those who are alive being transformed to meet the Lord IN THE AIR - 1 Thessalonians 4 v 13-17; 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52.

I would really appreciate it if you can point to us where Paul clearly stated believers would be taken into Heaven (note he wrote in the air) after they are resurrected/transformed.

Ken4Christ:

Jesus is not coming back alone. He is coming with saints from heaven and the saints on earth will be joined together with the saints in heaven.

Yes, Jesus is not coming back alone. He is coming with thousands upon thousands OF HIS HOLY ONES - Jude 1 v 14-15. This of course would include the believers who are transformed and WOULD BE GATHERED UNTO HIM IN THE AIR

The believers would be encamped in the holy city. This is where Satan and the deceived nations would gather around to attack again - See Revelation 20 v 8-9;
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Ken4Christ:

The seven trumpet in the book of revelation is a trumpet of judgment. It has nothing to do with the trumpet sound that will precede the rapture. And the trumpet of the rapture will not be heard by everyone. Only the dead in Christ and the faithful saints that are alive will hear it.

This bolded part of your quote. Please can you show us scriptural references where the coming of the Lord would be accompanied by a trumpet ONLY BELIEVERS can hear? Please state it out clearly, without inserting your interpretation into it. And if it is your interpretation, make it clear that this is how you understand it, and not necessarily what the scripture states.

Ken4Christ:

The book of revelation has clearly revealed the chronology of events and I have shown you the two rapture and the two tribulation period as unveiled in it.

I have still not seen the two raptures and two tribulation periods in the book of Revelation. There is only one Great Tribulation, and Jesus clearly mentioned in Matthew 24, no other tribulation/distress will equal it in the history of mankind.

Ken4Christ:


The second coming of the Lord is a day we are also looking forward to. But it will happen after the great tribulation period. The rapture of the church will take place before the great tribulation period.

During the rapture, Jesus is not coming down to the earth. We will be caught up to meet him in the air. He will not be involved in any battle during the rapture of the church.

Can you show us where Jesus mentioned either in the synoptic gospels or his revelation to Apostle John He will come for believers BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION?

I have deliberately excluded Paul's letters here because it's obvious 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4 v 13-17 has been interpreted out of context. Paul cannot preach something different from John or Jesus about the second coming of Christ. Even Paul's letter to the Corinthian church makes it clear the resurrection of the saints would happen AT THE LAST TRUMP (which simply means, no trumpet after this one). As far as end time events are laid out, there is no trumpet blown after the second coming of Christ in Matthew 24 v 29-31. It would be blown immediately after the tribulation of those days, and the elect (believers dead and alive) would be gathered unto Christ. This is just too straightforward to understand and self explanatory. "LAST TRUMP"

Ken4Christ:

But when he comes back, he will land on the earth to destroy the wicked one and end the world system of government. But before the destruction, 144,000 Jews will be raptured immediately after the great tribulation period of the Jews.

Again, the second coming of Christ and the resurrection/transformation of believers would happen on the same day. Not different days. This would happen on THE DAY OF THE LORD.

Ken4Christ:

The first resurrection in Chapter 20 refers to the Jews who were killed during the tribulation period. They will rise and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. And the saints that came with Christ from heaven will also reign with Christ on earth. This is the gathering unto Jesus Paul talked about. And Jesus will reward the Saints from heaven with rulership over nations. As he sits upon his throne in Jerusalem, the rest of us will rule other nations. No unbeliever will have any position of authority.

Remember I told you there's a curse on those who add to or remove from the book of Revelation? Please read these verses carefully and tell us how they apply to "Jews only"...bearing in mind the great tribulation will affect everyone against the beast system living on earth;

Revelation 20 v 4-6;
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 7 v 9, 13-14;
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Dear Ken4Christ, I would appreciate if you can point us to where Apostle John saw a Revelation of believers who Jesus took with him back to heaven before the great tribulation

OkCornel:


Can you show us where Jesus mentioned either in the synoptic gospels or his revelation to Apostle John He will come for believers BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION?

I have deliberately excluded Paul's letters here because it's obvious 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4 v 13-17 has been interpreted out of context. Paul cannot preach something different from John or Jesus about the second coming of Christ. Even Paul's letter to the Corinthian church makes it clear the resurrection of the saints would happen AT THE LAST TRUMP (which simply means, no trumpet after this one). As far as end time events are laid out, there is no trumpet blown after the second coming of Christ in Matthew 24 v 29-31. It would be blown immediately after the tribulation of those days, and the elect (believers dead and alive) would be gathered unto Christ. This is just too straightforward to understand and self explanatory. "LAST TRUMP"



Again, the second coming of Christ and the resurrection/transformation of believers would happen on the same day. Not different days. This would happen on THE DAY OF THE LORD.



Remember I told you there's a curse on those who add to or remove from the book of Revelation? Please read these verses carefully and tell us how they apply to "Jews only"...bearing in mind the great tribulation will affect everyone against the beast system living on earth;

Revelation 20 v 4-6;
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 7 v 9, 13-14;
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Dear Ken4Christ, I would appreciate if you can point us to where Apostle John saw a Revelation of believers who Jesus took with him back to heaven before the great tribulation

I understand your submission. I am quite busy now. I will respond much later. I really appreciate your kind of person who gets engaged in arguments without insulting anyone. I surely will respond much later.

OkCornel:


Can you show us where Jesus mentioned either in the synoptic gospels or his revelation to Apostle John He will come for believers BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION?

I have deliberately excluded Paul's letters here because it's obvious 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4 v 13-17 has been interpreted out of context. Paul cannot preach something different from John or Jesus about the second coming of Christ. Even Paul's letter to the Corinthian church makes it clear the resurrection of the saints would happen AT THE LAST TRUMP (which simply means, no trumpet after this one). As far as end time events are laid out, there is no trumpet blown after the second coming of Christ in Matthew 24 v 29-31. It would be blown immediately after the tribulation of those days, and the elect (believers dead and alive) would be gathered unto Christ. This is just too straightforward to understand and self explanatory. "LAST TRUMP"



Again, the second coming of Christ and the resurrection/transformation of believers would happen on the same day. Not different days. This would happen on THE DAY OF THE LORD.



Remember I told you there's a curse on those who add to or remove from the book of Revelation? Please read these verses carefully and tell us how they apply to "Jews only"...bearing in mind the great tribulation will affect everyone against the beast system living on earth;

Revelation 20 v 4-6;
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 7 v 9, 13-14;
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Dear Ken4Christ, I would appreciate if you can point us to where Apostle John saw a Revelation of believers who Jesus took with him back to heaven before the great tribulation

This subject is far deeper than we think. So I will take it bit by bit. It might take me several post to unveil many hidden truth about end time events that the present day church is not yet acquainted with.

The first thing I want to establish is that the raptured saints will be in heaven before the tribulation period the saints of the church that missed the rapture will go through. I have mentioned it before. But I will repeat it again.

The raptured saints are the four beast or four living creatures seen before the throne. How do I know? The same book said so;

Revelation 5:8-9.
8 And when he had taken the book, THE FOUR BEASTS and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And THEY SUNG A NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and HAST REDEEMED US to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION.

Look at the two verses above very well.

1. It said that the four beast fell down before the lamb. Which means they were already in heaven at that time. Revelation 4:6 says that they were round about the throne.

2. Verse 9 said that they sang a new song. So they could sing. It shows that they were humans.

3. Verse 9 affirms that they were redeemed by the blood of the lamb. Who are those redeemed by the blood? The church of course.

4. Verse 9 confirms that it was out of every kindred, tongue and people and nations.

So, the church is already seen in heaven by John before the tribulation period began.

Chapter 4 describes the four beast in details;

Revelation 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

The first beast - like a lion. This is the early church.

The second beast - like a calf. This is the church when a large percentage was in idolatry.

The third beast - like a man. This is the reformed church but lacked the power of the Holy Spirit.

The fourth beast - like a flying eagle. This is the church that will precede the rapture. And we are part of it.

After the rapture, the saints left behind went through great tribulation. And they were seen in heaven;

Revelation 7:9-14.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Notice verse 9 says that they were from all nations. And verse 14 says that they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. It means that they were saints for the fact that they had robes. But their robes were stained. So, it was sin that made them miss the rapture. But they still made it but they were all killed.

At this time, the nation of Israel is still waiting for their Messiah. And this Messiah was revealed in Revelation Chapter 13. He is the second beast also known as the false Prophet. The two horns on his head represents Judah and Israel.

He made an image of the first beast and forced everyone on earth to worship him. He also instituted a mark and number 666 which they must receive either on their foreheads or on their right hands. It was the image he put in the temple of God that will make the Jews to know that they have been deceived.

Because the Jews will refuse to worship this image, they will be persecuted. But the persecution will not affect 144,000 of them that were sealed in Revelation, Chapter 7.

This is what our Lord Jesus meant when he said;

Matthew 24:15-22.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect is the 144,000 sealed.

They were later rapture at the end of the great tribulation and seen in heaven;

Revelation 14:1-3.
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

The Jews that passed through this tribulations were also seen in heaven;

Revelation 15:1-3.
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Notice the difference between these tribulation saints and that of Chapter 7.

Those in Chapter 7 were from every tribe. Those in Chapter 15 are Jews. They sang the song of Moses.

Ken4Christ:


This subject is far deeper than we think. So I will take it bit by bit. It might take me several post to unveil many hidden truth about end time events that the present day church is not yet acquainted with.

The first thing I want to establish is that the raptured saints will be in heaven before the tribulation period the saints of the church that missed the rapture will go through. I have mentioned it before. But I will repeat it again.

The raptured saints are the four beast or four living creatures seen before the throne. How do I know? The same book said so;

Revelation 5:8-9.
8 And when he had taken the book, THE FOUR BEASTS and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And THEY SUNG A NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and HAST REDEEMED US to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION.

Look at the two verses above very well.

1. It said that the four beast fell down before the lamb. Which means they were already in heaven at that time. Revelation 4:6 says that they were round about the throne.

2. Verse 9 said that they sang a new song. So they could sing. It shows that they were humans.

3. Verse 9 affirms that they were redeemed by the blood of the lamb. Who are those redeemed by the blood? The church of course.

4. Verse 9 confirms that it was out of every kindred, tongue and people and nations.

So, the church is already seen in heaven by John before the tribulation period began.

I have addressed this in an earlier post. There are two things you need to consider
1) Apostle John is not the first person to see the four living creatures in the presence of God. The Old Testament prophet also saw the four living creatures in the presence of God - Ezekiel 1 v 5-24; 10 v 9-14. Are the four living creatures Ezekiel saw also the raptured saints?

2) The scriptures was not originally written in English. When you translate Revelation 5 v 9 directly from the original language it was written in (Koine Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew), the living creatures never referred themselves as the ones redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

See the screenshot I've attached to this post, and a link from the bible study tool for the interpretation.

Revelation 5 v 9
"And they are singing a song new saying Worthy are You to take the scroll and to open the seals of it because You were slain and You purchased to God by the blood of You out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and You have made them to the God of us a kingdom and priests and they will reign upon the earth"

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/5.htm

From the above, you cannot see the living creatures using the pronoun "us" to claim they were the ones redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

Ken4Christ:

Chapter 4 describes the four beast in details;

Revelation 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

The first beast - like a lion. This is the early church.

The second beast - like a calf. This is the church when a large percentage was in idolatry.

The third beast - like a man. This is the reformed church but lacked the power of the Holy Spirit.

The fourth beast - like a flying eagle. This is the church that will precede the rapture. And we are part of it.

After the rapture, the saints left behind went through great tribulation. And they were seen in heaven;

Can you point a scriptural reference from the Old Testament prophets, Jesus or the Apostles validating this interpretation? Or is this your interpretation you want to add to the Book of Revelation? Again, be careful...this is a warning from Jesus;

Revelation 22 v 18-19;
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Ken4Christ:

Revelation 7:9-14.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Notice verse 9 says that they were from all nations. And verse 14 says that they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. It means that they were saints for the fact that they had robes. But their robes were stained. So, it was sin that made them miss the rapture. But they still made it but they were all killed.

Please and please, the bolded part of what you just said here, can you point to a scripture from Jesus or the Apostles or the Epistles from Jesus' younger brothers (James and Jude) validating what you have just said here. That there will be a "rapture of believers before the great tribulation, and those who miss out was due to sin, but were killed and their robes were then washed with the blood of the lamb"

That my friend up there, is your interpretation. Not what the scripture states.

Ken4Christ:

At this time, the nation of Israel is still waiting for their Messiah. And this Messiah was revealed in Revelation Chapter 13. He is the second beast also known as the false Prophet. The two horns on his head represents Judah and Israel.

He made an image of the first beast and forced everyone on earth to worship him. He also instituted a mark and number 666 which they must receive either on their foreheads or on their right hands. It was the image he put in the temple of God that will make the Jews to know that they have been deceived.

Because the Jews will refuse to worship this image, they will be persecuted. But the persecution will not affect 144,000 of them that were sealed in Revelation, Chapter 7.

This is what our Lord Jesus meant when he said;

Matthew 24:15-22.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect is the 144,000 sealed.

They were later rapture at the end of the great tribulation and seen in heaven;

Revelation 14:1-3.
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

The Jews that passed through this tribulations were also seen in heaven;

Bros, please read Revelation 14 v 1-3 slowly. Look at the parts I bolded. They (the lamb and 144,000) were on Mount Sion (not heaven)

Secondly, if they (the 144,000) were already in heaven, why did Apostle John hear a sound "from heaven"?

The 144,000 were on mount Sion (not heaven), the lamb was with them. Only the 144,000 could learn a new song which was played from the throne room of heaven.

Ken4Christ:

Revelation 15:1-3.
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Notice the difference between these tribulation saints and that of Chapter 7.

Those in Chapter 7 were from every tribe. Those in Chapter 15 are Jews. They sang the song of Moses.

There is no difference between the tribulation saints in Chapter 7 and Chapter 15. Because they sang the song of Moses in chapter 15 doesn't make them only Jews.

OkCornel:

I have addressed this in an earlier post. There are two things you need to consider
1) Apostle John is not the first person to see the four living creatures in the presence of God. The Old Testament prophet also saw the four living creatures in the presence of God - Ezekiel 1 v 5-24; 10 v 9-14. Are the four living creatures Ezekiel saw also the raptured saints?

2) The scriptures was not originally written in English. When you translate Revelation 5 v 9 directly from the original language it was written in (Koine Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew), the living creatures never referred themselves as the ones redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

See the screenshot I've attached to this post, and a link from the bible study tool for the interpretation.

Revelation 5 v 9
"And they are singing a song new saying Worthy are You to take the scroll and to open the seals of it because You were slain and You purchased to God by the blood of You out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and You have made them to the God of us a kingdom and priests and they will reign upon the earth"

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/5.htm

From the above, you cannot see the living creatures using the pronoun "us" to claim they were the ones redeemed by the blood of the lamb.



Can you point a scriptural reference from the Old Testament prophets, Jesus or the Apostles validating this interpretation? Or is this your interpretation you want to add to the Book of Revelation? Again, be careful...this is a warning from Jesus;

Revelation 22 v 18-19;
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.




Please and please, the bolded part of what you just said here, can you point to a scripture from Jesus or the Apostles or the Epistles from Jesus' younger brothers (James and Jude) validating what you have just said here. That there will be a "rapture of believers before the great tribulation, and those who miss out was due to sin, but were killed and their robes were then washed with the blood of the lamb"

That my friend up there, is your interpretation. Not what the scripture states.



Bros, please read Revelation 14 v 1-3 slowly. Look at the parts I bolded. They (the lamb and 144,000) were on Mount Sion (not heaven)

Secondly, if they (the 144,000) were already in heaven, why did Apostle John hear a sound "from heaven"?

The 144,000 were on mount Sion (not heaven), the lamb was with them. Only the 144,000 could learn a new song which was played from the throne room of heaven.



There is no difference between the tribulation saints in Chapter 7 and Chapter 15. Because they sang the song of Moses in chapter 15 doesn't make them only Jews.

Jesus cannot be a bad narrator. The events in the book of Revelation are written in chronological order. It is only in Chapter 12 it paused to reveal the battle that has been going on in the realm of the spirit concerning the children of Israel and the dragon.

How can the tribulation of chapter 7 be the same as that of chapter 15? The event of chapter 7 happened many years before that of chapter 15.

The chapter 7 event ended the church age and God resumed his dealings with the Jews with the two witnesses he sent.

They missed the rapture because of sin. They did not get saved because they were killed. They got saved because they still exercise faith in the blood of Jesus. They must have asked for mercy and still maintained that Jesus is their Lord.

This is why the scripture says;

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

God's dealing with the Jews will not resume until he is through with the Gentiles. This is why the scripture says;

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN.

Right now, the Jews are partially blind. But that blindness will be removed later in future when the false Prophet sets up the image of the beast in the temple.

So, right now, God is focused on the Gentiles that are saved and many more will be saved. So, until the fullness of the Gentiles come into the kingdom, the blindness of the Jews remains.

This is why I said earlier on that God has a different calendar for the Gentiles and a different one for the Jews.

The mount sion he saw could not have been on earth because they were with the lamb who is Jesus. And the lamb is in heaven.

Even the psalmist sang a song referring to God's dwelling place as mount zion - Psalms 48:1-2.

The writer of Hebrews also refers to mount zion as the heavenly Jerusalem;

Hebrews 12:22-23
22 But ye are come unto MOUNT SION, and unto the city of the living God, THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

So, mount sion is another name for heaven where God dwells.

It was John who heard the voice from heaven and not the 144,000 because John was on earth.