Happy Sunday everyone

So this is something I've noticed in a lot of debates against Christians.

When barbaric things either done by the Christian God, or on his behalf in the old testament are brought up, Christians are often quick to jump in and justify it, using one terrible excuse or the other.

In this discussion, i want to focus on the latter. That is, things done on behalf of their God. For example,

1. Commanding the stoning of non-virgins, disobedient children and people who work on the Sabbath day
2. Commanding his alleged people to commit several acts of genocide
3. Asking a dude to sacrifice his son (I'm talking about Abraham)
4. Commanding the murder of those who don't worship him

Common reasons I've heard in support of these terrible acts include

1. He is God, and he can do whatever he wants
2. He did it, so the nation of Israel can be established, which would later lead to the coming of Christ who would save us all
3. He did it, because the people back then were sinners, and those were his ways of passing judgement

I'm sure you get the point. So now here's the catch.

If these things are justifiable based on the reasons given above, or the ones you're likely to give, then why aren't similar acts committed by Islamic terrorists considered also justifiable?

Things like killing apostates or infidels, and spreading their ideologies by the sword are things we all abhor, and object to. We sight these things as objectively wrong.

But when they happen in your old testament, for some reason, they're completely fine.

It seems to me that anyone can commit almost any barbaric and terrible act, and simply get away with it by saying “because my God told me so" or to claim it was for a higher purpose which we can't yet see. Both very terrible excuses.

So where exactly do you draw the line? And why?

Why is something deemed Just and good, when done by followers of your God in your book, but bad when done by others, who also claim to have been instructed by the same “supreme" God?

On what basis do you reject their claims of instruction, but also justify the ones committed by the people in your book?

Look forward to hearing your answers. Atheists, agnostics, and people from other faiths are also welcome to contribute.

Dtruthspeaker ... MaxinDhouse ... TenQ ... elated177 ... The floor is yours

Also common is schizophrenics who hear the voice of god talking to them and telling them to do all sorts of things.

How is anyone sure that all those prophets from Moses up to St Paul etc we’re not raving schizophrenics?

The battle is within ...

The real jihad is within.

The letter killeth...

Wilgrea7:


Look forward to hearing your answers. Atheists, agnostics, and people from other faiths are also welcome to contribute.

Wilgrea7, You are right to be concerned about most of the accounts recorded in the old testament. In the past, I used to quickly rush to defend or give answers to questions such as the ones you are asking untill someone advised me on why it is wrong to do that. No one has all the answers. There are alot of things that can only be understood if he gives you the spirit of understanding and I am reluctant to request for that spirit because I feel too unclean by my daily actions and I don't want to grieve his spirit.

From a human standpoint, There are stories recorded in the bible that just doesn't make sense or makes God appear to be a tyrannical dictator.

You mentioned some but there are still others that are strange, confusing and gory Like the one recorded in Exodus 4:24-26.

There are prophets in the Bible who also quetioned God on why he doesn't seem to act when there is violence and injustice, why the wicked and the ungodly progress and why he deceived them or made them an object of ridicule.

If you sit-down to really examine the means by which men are saved, the torture and crucifixion of a perfect man, you may also wonder, If nothing is impossible with God, wasn't there any other means to save men apart from the torture and death of a man?

All of these is enough to make one totally reject the Bible as a useless book. But I have choosed not to do that.

The fact that those accounts are there and not hidden or scrubbed off shows that the book is nothing but the bitter truth and truth doesn't care about your feeelings. It wasn't written to tickle our ears, it is what it is, the truth, filled with awful, strange, sad, awe-inspiring, horrible, happy and encouraging accounts.

I don't reject it because most accounts that we read are presented in a summarised format. sometimes you see a further explanation of a particular event in another chapter like the way the book of jude made us understand that when moses died, a debate between the devil and Michael concerning moses body took place.

As shocking as some accounts appear to be, it would be unwise for me to completely decide that God is an evil tyrannical being because there are other accounts that depict a totally different side of him, His ability to be merciful and to forgive, his patience towards unrepentant nations, His Ability to save and protect, His ability to bless those who obey him or those who have a humble heart, His impartiality... Regarding impartiality, There are accounts of him not only wiping away pagan nations but also his own people the nation of Israel. In one account, after giving david three punishment to choose from, he sent an angel that destroyed Jerusalem and a pestilence that killed 70,000 people.

I am also aware that God reads peoples hearts and trys the kidneys so my judgement or condemnation of a case can be totally different from that of his.

God has openly told us in the scriptures that he is a God of Mystery. His ways are higher than ours. No one can hold his hands and ask him "what is this you are about to do, or what is this you have done".
He brings errors of fathers upon sons. He gives the kingdoms of the world to whomever he chooses. When a court adjourns and he passes a decree it is and it MUST be obeyed. He judges perfectly. Cases, argument or debates are held in his presence and he passes judgement in favour of the devil atimes. He knows those who are his and those who are not his. Before the foundation of the world names have already been recorded in the book of life.

All of these shows that He is not a barney and friends, lovee dovee, genie kind of person as pastors of today paint him to be. He is something or someone we cannot fully comprehend. He is someone we actually should be afraid of most especially when we know we are doing what pissess him off and we are not sorry or ashamed about it.

You're free to call me deluded, but this is what I remind myself when I come across difficult scriptures that requires his spirit of understanding.

One is thing is certain, If truly you are curious to know and understand his word, because you want to get to know him better....Ask for his spirit of understanding, He will definitely give it to you. But I must warn, if after giving you his spirit to understand you still rebel and speak or make jest of him or his word... You're not gonna like what happens next.

Your madness has begun.

Wilgrea7:

1. Commanding the stoning of non-virgins,

Correction! The word is who.res and prostitu.tes not non virgins.

2 Commandments here - Holiness (purity and chastity) and removal of who.res/killermama stylishly called slaymama (to remember that slay means to kill)

Who does not reasonably like a virgin? And who likes an unfaithful wife?

Not even you Devils hate a virgin and love a prostitute.

Wilgrea7:

disobedient children

Which person in this world likes a stubborn child?

Wilgrea7:

and people who work on the Sabbath day

This is a Commandment God gave and even if you do not fear your mother and father would you not fear your Creator?

How do you reasonably expect to survive when you disobey your Creator?

Did you not even nearly die when you disobeyed your parents?

Wilgrea7:

Commanding his alleged people to commit several acts of genocide

Big fool! Go and read the story, those enemies attacked Isreal first, even without provocation.

Wilgrea7:

Asking a dude to sacrifice his son (I'm talking about Abraham)

Who does not understand a test?

Obviously, Stupid atheists do not!

Who does not understand that what Ownership means? Again, mad atheists do not!

Wilgrea7:
Commanding the murder of those who don't worship him.

Now as usual with you bastards, you lie against Him.

O God, how long shall the adversary reproach? shall the enemy blaspheme thy name for ever?

When shall thou arise and avenge thyself of thine enemies, O Lord?

Remember this, that the enemy hath reproached, O Lord, and that the foolish people have blasphemed thy name.

Arise, O God, plead thine own cause: remember how the foolish man reproacheth thee daily.

Forget not the voice of thine enemies: the tumult of those that rise up against thee increaseth continually

Dtruthspeaker:
Your madness has begun.

Lmao. Coming in hot with the insults. You're off to a great start

Correction! The word is who.res and prostitu.tes not non virgins.

2 Commandments here - Holiness (purity and chastity) and removal of who.res/killermama stylishly called slaymama (to remember that slay means to kill)

Who does not reasonably like a virgin? And who likes an unfaithful wife?

Not even you Devils hate a virgin and love a prostitute.

Deuteronomy 22:17-21
King James Version

17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;

19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.

20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the LovePeddler in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

I don't know what bible you're quoting from, but this is from KJV.

Also, the fact that you're trying to justify this only proves my point.

Do you support the stoning on non-virgins to death today? Why or why not?
If the Islamic terrorists do it, are you fine with it? Why or why not?

Which person in this world likes a stubborn child?

People in this day and age are smart enough not to stone their children to death for disobedience. We've found more effective methods than cold-blooded murder.

Would you stone your child to death? If your God can sanction such a despicable act back then, what makes you think he can't do the same today? What makes you think the Islamic terrorists aren't correct, and you're the one holding the wrong notion which God may have changed?

This is a Commandment God gave and even if you do not fear your mother and father would you not fear your Creator?

How do you reasonably expect to survive when you disobey your Creator?

Did you not even nearly die when you disobeyed your parents?

I don't fear my parents. I love and respect them. The type of fear you're trying to describe is the one oppressors impose on their victims, or the type found in abusive relationships. Your God is really crushing it isn't he?

Also, No i did not "nearly die" when i disobeyed my parents. They weren't crazy maniacs that would try to murder their son for disobedience. Sure i got my as.s beat... but at no point, did it result in me nearly dying, or even the fear that they would try to kill me.

Big fool! Go and read the story, those enemies attacked Israel first, even without provocation.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2
King James Version

7 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

Yep. Without provocation alright.

Who does not understand a test?

Obviously, Stupid atheists do not!

Who does not understand that what Ownership means? Again, mad atheists do not!

I think you should write a poem or song about how mad we atheists are. It's more creative and interesting.

Moving on, the fact that you think it's okay for your God to ask someone to kill their child, as a test of faith tells me pretty much what i need to know about you.

Please note, i know a ram was eventually provided at the last moment. That doesn't matter. I'm focusing on the absurdity of the request itself. If God wanted, he could've let Abraham go ahead with the sacrifice of Isaac. I said If o, before you misquote me.

So, then, if a parent told you that God asked them to sacrifice their child, or in this case, if your God asked you directly, would you do it? Why or why not?

Now as usual with you bastards, you lie against Him.

O God, how long shall the adversary reproach? shall the enemy blaspheme thy name for ever?

When shall thou arise and avenge thyself of thine enemies, O Lord?

Remember this, that the enemy hath reproached, O Lord, and that the foolish people have blasphemed thy name.

Arise, O God, plead thine own cause: remember how the foolish man reproacheth thee daily.

Forget not the voice of thine enemies: the tumult of those that rise up against thee increaseth continually

Kpele o.

Leviticus 20
King James Version
20 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

3 And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.

Would you suggest the stoning of people who worship other Gods? Why or why not? What makes it permissible to kill followers of other religions in your OT, but when Islamic terrorists do it, you frown. Isn't that the definition of hypocrisy?

Wilgrea7:

Dtruthspeaker ... MaxinDhouse ... TenQ ... elated177 ... The floor is yours

Just tell me what you aim to achieve because my aim for debates is to gain worshipers for my own God by agreeing on the same line of thought {John 17:20-23} so that i can have more trusted friends around.
I just don't debate aimlessly! 1Corinthians 9:26

MaxInDHouse:

Just tell me what you aim to achieve because my aim for debates is to gain worshipers for my own God by agreeing on the same line of thought so that i can have more trusted friends around.
I just don't debate aimlessly! 1Corinthians 9:26

Well, I'm just asking questions, and giving people the opportunity to think for themselves.

If you think your answers can serve your purpose, feel free to contribute.. if not, then I bid you farewell

Wilgrea7:

Well, I'm just asking questions, and giving people the opportunity to think for themselves. If you think your answers can serve your purpose, feel free to contribute.. if not, then I bid you farewell

Meaning both of us aren't on the same page, goodbye!

Nelidee:


Wilgrea7, You are right to be concerned about most of the accounts recorded in the old testament. In the past, I used to quickly rush to defend or give answers to questions such as the ones you are asking untill someone advised me on why it is wrong to do that. No one has all the answers. There are alot of things that can only be understood if he gives you the spirit of understanding and I am reluctant to request for that spirit because I feel too unclean by my daily actions and I don't want to grieve his spirit.

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. When things like this get brought up, it's either we don't understand God's reasons, or don't have the spirit of understanding, or some other excuse.

Do you realize that this very excuse can be used to justify literally almost any despicable act? I gave the example of terrible organizations like ISIS. The very words you just used to defend the actions of the Israelites, under the command of your God in the OT, can be used to justify theirs. That's the problem.
When we begin to come up with excuses like "God has his reasons", "God knows best", "You need the spirit of understanding" and so on, we have a serious problem. Because all of a sudden, even the most abominable acts can be seen as "Just".

From a human standpoint, There are stories recorded in the bible that just doesn't make sense or makes God appear to be a tyrannical dictator.

Actions of terrorists also appear tyrannical from a human standpoint. Should we then justify their actions based on "God's standpoint"?

You mentioned some but there are still others that are strange, confusing and gory Like the one recorded in Exodus 4:24-26.

There are prophets in the Bible who also quetioned God on why he doesn't seem to act when there is violence and injustice, why the wicked and the ungodly progress and why he deceived them or made them an object of ridicule.

If you sit-down to really examine the means by which men are saved, the torture and crucifixion of a perfect man, you may also wonder, If nothing is impossible with God, wasn't there any other means to save men apart from the torture and death of a man?

All of these is enough to make one totally reject the Bible as a useless book. But I have choosed not to do that.

Well I did. It didn't make sense, and it still hasn't. No functioning Judicial system punishes innocent people for the crimes of the guilty. That's insane.

If we want to keep permitting these sort of bad actions because God's ways are apparently different, then just about any other abominable thing can be justified on those grounds.

The fact that those accounts are there and not hidden or scrubbed off shows that the book is nothing but the bitter truth and truth doesn't care about your feeelings. It wasn't written to tickle our ears, it is what it is, the truth, filled with awful, strange, sad, awe-inspiring, horrible, happy and encouraging accounts.

Same could be said about the instructions in other religious books, where terrorists base their actions on.

I don't reject it because most accounts that we read are presented in a summarised format. sometimes you see a further explanation of a particular event in another chapter like the way the book of jude made us understand that when moses died, a debate between the devil and Michael concerning moses body took place.

As shocking as some accounts appear to be, it would be unwise for me to completely decide that God is an evil tyrannical being because there are other accounts that depict a totally different side of him, His ability to be merciful and to forgive, his patience towards unrepentant nations, His Ability to save and protect, His ability to bless those who obey him or those who have a humble heart, His impartiality... Regarding impartiality, There are accounts of him not only wiping away pagan nations but also his own people the nation of Israel. In one account, after giving david three punishment to choose from, he sent an angel that destroyed Jerusalem and a pestilence that killed 70,000 people.

Same could be said in defense of the evils perpetrated by terrorists. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck .....

Also, I don't know how making reference to the Genocide your God himself committed does anything to strengthen your point.

Are you trying to say that if we have a God who can turn cities to ash, and decimate his own people, then it is additionally acceptable to carry out the terrible acts we see in the world today?

I am also aware that God reads peoples hearts and trys the kidneys so my judgement or condemnation of a case can be totally different from that of his.

God has openly told us in the scriptures that he is a God of Mystery. His ways are higher than ours. No one can hold his hands and ask him "what is this you are about to do, or what is this you have done".
He brings errors of fathers upon sons. He gives the kingdoms of the world to whomever he chooses. When a court adjourns and he passes a decree it is and it MUST be obeyed. He judges perfectly. Cases, argument or debates are held in his presence and he passes judgement in favour of the devil atimes. He knows those who are his and those who are not his. Before the foundation of the world names have already been recorded in the book of life.

You're proving my point. Everything you've said just now, could be used to support evil actions committed by terrorists. A group of people can go around killing everything in their sight, and say their God said so, and further justify their actions with "God's ways are a mystery" or "God works in mysterious ways". It's a terrible attempt to try and get away with evil deeds.

All of these shows that He is not a barney and friends, lovee dovee, genie kind of person as pastors of today paint him to be. He is something or someone we cannot fully comprehend. He is someone we actually should be afraid of most especially when we know we are doing what pissess him off and we are not sorry or ashamed about it.

That sounds like how an abusive relationship would play out. It's tyranny. If your God isn't Barney and friends, then on what basis do you reject the actions done by evil organisations like ISIS? Their God is certainly not Barney and friends either. What makes you think they're not actually the ones acting in accordance with what your God wants?

You're free to call me deluded, but this is what I remind myself when I come across difficult scriptures that requires his spirit of understanding.

One is thing is certain, If truly you are curious to know and understand his word, because you want to get to know him better....Ask for his spirit of understanding, He will definitely give it to you. But I must warn, if after giving you his spirit to understand you still rebel and speak or make jest of him or his word... You're not gonna like what happens next.

1. That's a subtle attempt at a threat. It means absolutely nothing to me. But it's an attempt at a threat nonetheless. And these kinds of fear-mongering tactics are part of the problem I'm trying to address.

2. Saying things like "getting to know his word" or "spirit of understanding" are just ineffective attempts to try and silence people. Statements like this seem to imply that you need some sort of "higher wisdom" to understand something so obvious and basic. And this very same excuse, like I've said before, can be used to defend the most despicable acts. And that, is the fundamental problem with religion.

MaxInDHouse:


Meaning both of us aren't on the same page, goodbye!

I have to say, I find it a bit weird that you seem to be have had the energy and enthusiasm to debate atheists, or people of other religions, and even fellow Christians with contrasting beliefs.

But when it comes to a fundamental issue about the things that happened in your Old testament, all of a sudden, you don't debate "aimlessly".

Hmmmmm. Anyways, I hear ya. Take care.

PastorAIO:
Also common is schizophrenics who hear the voice of god talking to them and telling them to do all sorts of things.

How is anyone sure that all those prophets from Moses up to St Paul etc we’re not raving schizophrenics?

That's actually a pretty good point. Unfortunately, there's no way to know.

We certainly wouldn't want mentally ill people to go around telling others what God wants them to do now do we?

Wilgrea7:

Deuteronomy 22:17-21
King James Version

17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her,...

See how stupidly unreasonable you people are that you do not see that her husband falsely and evilly accuses her of what she is not guilty of. And how convenient that you did not take cognisance of vese 13 and 14 where this Law started so that you can sustain your evil mind against God, such that even where you see the Innocent wife's father making a case for her in the same verse 17, yet your evilness blinds you from understanding

"17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city."

Wilgrea7:

People in this day and age are smart enough not to stone...

Change of Post! That is not the question you asked.

Wilgrea7:

I don't fear my parents. I love and respect them. The type of fear you're trying to describe is the one oppressors impose on their victims, or the type found in abusive relationships....Also, No i did not "nearly die" when i disobeyed my parents

Atheists and Lies exactly like Lie Mohammed!

And see how stupid you are such that you did not see that every time we were caned by our parents we died! Which is why we said "I don die o, my mother would kill me today or my father will kill me today".

Wilgrea7:

[color=#990000]Deuteronomy 7:1-2
King James Version

7 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

See how unjust you fools are? Every normal person sees all those nations FIRST ATTACKING Isreal Without provocation but not you blind and stupid and unjust atheists who have no good sense of judgement!

So shall injustice be given against you all the days of thy life till thou depart this world.

Wilgrea7:

Moving on, the fact that you think it's okay for your God to ask someone to kill their child, as a test of faith tells me pretty much what i need to know about you.

And that is one of the million reasons why you people are very stupid.

Every man, woman and child already belongs to Him exactly as the phone and tablet in your hand and their children (documents, printouts, pictures, apps) you get out of them too.

So just like your documents, printouts, photos and co which you could always make again, there is nothing like loss of children in God's Hands for He can always replace them!

It's as simple as that but common sense is far from you people!

Surely, you would wish you had never been born for this life would never ever be well for you and every way you take shall be full of pain and misery and failure until you kill yourself or die slowly and very painfully!

Cursed is your living and cursed is your existence because you have wickedly and falsely accused The Good and Holy Creator and did not Fear Him.

All manners of evils shall follow you all the rest of the days and ye shall never dwell safely.

Your combination of insults and evasion tactics are next to none. Kudos to you sir.

Dtruthspeaker:


See how stupidly unreasonable you people are that you do not see that her husband falsely and evilly accuses her of what she is not guilty of. And how convenient that you did not take cognisance of vese 13 and 14 where this Law started so that you can sustain your evil mind against God, such that even where you see the Innocent wife's father making a case for her in the same verse 17, yet your evilness blinds you from understanding

"17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city."

And this proves what exactly? Lol. You're just proving my point more and more. I asked you very simple questions.

Would you support the stoning on non-virgins? Why or why not? If a society does this, do you consider them as evil, or as simply carrying out the instructions set by your God?

Change of Post! That is not the question you asked.

The questions I asked you.. You've failed to answer any of them.

Would you stone your child to death for disobedience? Would you consider a parent who does this evil, or simply carrying out the will of your God?

Atheists and Lies exactly like Lie Mohammed!

And see how stupid you are such that you did not see that every time we were caned by our parents we died! Which is why we said "I don die o, my mother would kill me today or my father will kill me today".

Strawmanning. Of course we said things like that. But that doesn't mean we meant that our parents would actually commit acts of murder. We expected serious as.s whoopings, that'll probably make us cry for hours... but no one, literally expected death.

Also, every time we were caned by our parents we died? Lmao. Sir, are you alright?

See how unjust you fools are? Every normal person sees all those nations FIRST ATTACKING Isreal Without provocation but not you blind and stupid and unjust atheists who have no good sense of judgement!

So shall injustice be given against you all the days of thy life till thou depart this world.

... I posted bible verses that showed otherwise, and you're still pushing your "they attacked first narrative". Welldone o

And that is one of the million reasons why you people are very stupid.

Every man, woman and child already belongs to Him exactly as the phone and tablet in your hand and their children (documents, printouts, pictures, apps) you get out of them too.

So just like your documents, printouts, photos and co which you could always make again, there is nothing like loss of children in God's Hands for He can always replace them!

It's as simple as that but common sense is far from you people!

This same logic can be used to justify the actions of mentally deranged people. People could go around killing their kids with the excuse that God would send them more, or replace them.

I asked you a simple question. If your God asked you to sacrifice your child to him, would you do it? Why or why not?

Also, the fact that you view children as commodities that can simply be "replaced" is somewhat troubling to me.

Surely, you would wish you had never been born for this life would never ever be well for you and every way you take shall be full of pain and misery and failure until you kill yourself or die slowly and very painfully!

Cursed is your living and cursed is your existence because you have wickedly and falsely accused The Good and Holy Creator and did not Fear Him.

All manners of evils shall follow you all the rest of the days and ye shall never dwell safely.

So because I bothered to ask questions about the apparent barbaric behaviors exhibited in your old testament, you're now cursing me all of a sudden

Save your energy and use it to curse the actual terrorists that go around killing people, and stoning them to death in the name of their imaginary sky daddy.

If you have no further rebuttals, just say so. Your meaningless insults only make you look laughable.

Dtruthspeaker:



Surely, you would wish you had never been born for this life would never ever be well for you and every way you take shall be full of pain and misery and failure until you kill yourself or die slowly and very painfully!

Cursed is your living and cursed is your existence because you have wickedly and falsely accused The Good and Holy Creator and did not Fear Him.

All manners of evils shall follow you all the rest of the days and ye shall never dwell safely.

Lmao. You should cap it off by sending bears to maul him.

And this abusive and cursive Christian will claim having the holy spirit and may even speak in tongue during service earlier!

Men! Christianity is in a mess! Deep mess!

Wilgrea7:
Dtruthspeaker ... MaxinDhouse ... TenQ ... elated177 ... The floor is yours

Do you think I have time for silly and unfruitful argument with you? Your assertions have no bearing on my beliefs and religion.

You are talking about the events of the Old Testament. Those ones happened a long time ago. What if I, Elated177, by the Power and Might of YHVH Almighty, the one and only true God, the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the seas and everything in them, increase the intensity of the sun tomorrow to the extent that it scorches you till you cry out in anguish? Abi you want flood to drive you away from your street as a result of excessive rainfall?

Tah! Who is this ignoramus! Who has the time to hold such silly discussion with you, wilgrea7? It is only a person who doesn't know the God he worships that will waste time on such silly discussion with you, wilgrea7.

The same Mighty Spirit is still in full operation today and will remain for ever.

elated177:



Do you think I have time for silly and unfruitful argument with you? Your assertions have no bearing on my beliefs and religion.

You are talking about the events of the Old Testament. Those ones happened a long time ago. What if I, Elated177, by the Power and Might of YHVH Almighty, the one and only true God, the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the seas and everything in them, increase the intensity of the sun tomorrow to the extent that it scorches you till you cry out in anguish? Abi you want flood to drive you away from your street as a result of excessive rainfall?

Tah! Who is this ignoramus! Who has the time to hold such silly discussion with you, wilgrea7? It is only a person who doesn't know the God he worships that will waste time on such silly discussion with you, wilgrea7.

The same Mighty Spirit is still in full operetion today and will remain for ever.

If you don't have a rebuttal.. just say so. No need for long essays and empty threats

Wilgrea7:


If you don't have a rebuttal.. just say so. No need for long essays and empty threats

Tell me your location and identify first. Let us start from.

PastorAIO:
Also common is schizophrenics who hear the voice of god talking to them and telling them to do all sorts of things.

How is anyone sure that all those prophets from Moses up to St Paul etc we’re not raving schizophrenics?

Na you get your mouth. Use it the way you like.

However, call them whatever you like from now to tomorrow, the fact still remains that they shook the world in their own time. The heavens and the earth responded to their call. The sun, the moon, the rain, thunder and lightning, the wind, heard their voices when they spoke. They were used by the Maker to relay very important message to his saints, servants and messengers. We, the saints, servants and messengers of the Creator/Maker, have confirmed what they relayed. So, no amount of insult will ever change that.


AIO, trying to malign those prophets will not give you the validity you crave so much. Now listen: the heavens and the earth responded to the call of those prophets. The sun, the moon, the rain, thunder and lightning, the wind, heard their voices when they spoke. AIO, can you beat that. If you believe you can, prove it. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, they say. Show us what you are offering, AIO.


Again, AIO, if you believe you have something better, present it and we will consider it. Trying to undermine the Might and Power of the Most High, YHVH Almighty, the one and only true God, the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the seas and everything in them, in those great servants of his, by calling names, will not cut it.

AIO, just present your alternative. Finito! Okwu agwu la.

elated177:


Tell me your location and identify first. Let us start from.

Lmao.. you want me to expose sensitive information about myself on a public forum ?

Nah ... Not happening. Pray to your God and ask him to tell you instead.

In the meantime... If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion... Just say so. Don't derail the thread.

elated177:


Na you get your mouth. Use it the way you like.

However, call them whatever you like from now to tomorrow, the fact still remains that they shook the world in their own time. The heavens and the earth responded to their call. The sun, the moon, the rain, thunder and lightning, the wind, heard their voices when they spoke. They were used by the Maker to relay very important message to his saints, servants and messengers. We, the saints, servants and messengers of the Creator/Maker, have confirmed what they relayed. So, no amount of insult will ever change that.

AIO, trying to malign those prophets will not give you the validity you crave so much. Now listen: the heavens and the earth responded to the call of those prophets. The sun, the moon, the rain, thunder and lightning, the wind, heard their voices when they spoke. AIO, can you beat that. If you believe you can, prove it. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, they say. Show us what you are offering, AIO.


Again, AIO, if you believe you have something better, present it and we will consider it. Trying to undermine the Might and Power of the Most High, YHVH Almighty, the one and only true God, the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the seas and everything in them, in those great servants of his, by calling names, will not cut it.

AIO, just present your alternative. Finito! Okwu agwu la.

I don't know how you possibly thought this writeup would do anything to strengthen your argument.. but ok.

Your claim of “shaking the world" or making the sun and moon and whatever hear their voices is something that occurs even in faiths you consider fake.

According to your bible.. Moses, with the help of your God split the red sea.. Joshua stopped the sun.. Elijah rode on a chariot of fire to somewhere apparently.

But claims like this exist in other religions too.

Mohammed supposedly split the moon in two. The Hindu god Krishna, was said to have lifted up a mountain with one finger. You get the point.

Whose God do these alleged miracles now prove? I guess we better start worshipping those other Gods now shouldn't we?

Wilgrea7:

I have to say, I find it a bit weird that you seem to be have had the energy and enthusiasm to debate atheists, or people of other religions, and even fellow Christians with contrasting beliefs. But when it comes to a fundamental issue about the things that happened in your Old testament, all of a sudden, you don't debate "aimlessly".
Hmmmmm. Anyways, I hear ya. Take care.

Wilgrea7:

Well, I'm just asking questions, and giving people the opportunity to think for themselves. If you think your answers can serve your purpose, feel free to contribute.. if not, then I bid you farewell

Continue helping them to think for themselves while i continue using God's word to unite the ones who choose to listen to me! Isaiah 2:2-4

You have your aim while i have mine the only difference here is that you want to make each of them think independently even if it means killing you and your families after they're through with such independent thinking {Revelations 6:3-4} but i'm of the opinion that the whole world must have one line of thought {John 17:22} before we can live in peace {John 14:17} we are supposed to be our brother's keeper {Mark 12:31} not selfish thinkers! Luke 11:23

If you're not interested in reasoning with your neighbours to come to an agreement {2Timothy 3:3} i don't see any reason wasting my precious time with you, everyone has brains you're not the one who gave them so you can't teach them how to make use of it {Genesis 3:4} there must be some profound source of guidance in the absence of that then it simply means you're making yourself their God. 2Corinthians 4:4

To me there's one SUPREME BEING (GOD) {Psalms 83:18} it's His thought {Isaiah 55:8-9} that i'm calling my neighbours for {Isaiah 1:18} so that we can all form an opinion that will benefit one and all {Isaiah 48:17-18} as one global family! Micah 4:1-3

KnownUnknown:


Lmao. You should cap it off by sending bears to maul him.

Don't need to. God always packages something specific to each person so his own package is coming.

PastorAIO:

Also common is schizophrenics who hear the voice of god talking to them and telling them to do all sorts of things.
How is anyone sure that all those prophets from Moses up to St Paul etc we’re not raving schizophrenics?

The highlighted!

The God of Abraham (JEHOVAH) promised him that by means of Abraham all the families of the earth will be blessed! Genesis 12:3

The rest is STORY! STORY!! STORY!!!

But today what this God promised has come to fulfilment to prove His worth {Isaiah 55:8-11} from all the nations of the earth people are coming together to form one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers:

In the final part of the days, The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, And it will be raised up above the hills, And to it all the nations will stream. And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.” For law will go out of Zion, And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. He will render judgment among the nations And set matters straight respecting many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore. Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3

Do you know that while people from all other religions (including Traditionalists) have failed to save their adherents from Satan who is using them to kill one another due to racism and politics {Revelations 6:3-4} JEHOVAH the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is using His only begotten Son to call people {Hebrews 1:1} throughout the earth.
For what purpose exactly?
Well Jesus (Archangel Michael) will lead them to SALVATION {Daniel 12:1-3} calling them out of false religions {Revelations 18:4} and as his people they will be taught to reason like their God {John 17:22} so that they can form one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers where they will divert all their resources into the production of food and information materials instead of building destructive weapons and planning for wars! Isaiah 2:2-4

So by their FRUIT {Matthew 7:16-18} which we all know today as JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES organization God's prophet from Moses till Paul has proved beyond reasonable doubt that they are not schizophrenics but messengers sent by the Most High God Sir!

Wilgrea7:

And this proves what exactly? Lol...

See it!

You prove you are very stupid for you see my answer, EVEN TWICE and because you could not find any thing to say, you had to say "this proves what".

Wilgrea7:

Would you support the stoning on non-virgins? Why or why not? If a society does this, do you consider them as evil, or as simply carrying out the instructions set by your God?

Change of Post! The topic of the thread is very clearly spelt out on top which is "about the justification of God's Acts in the old testament" and not on whether who supports the stoning of any one.

So you see, your head does not work well and so you do not think well

Wilgrea7:

The questions I asked you.. You've failed to answer any of them.

Would you stone your child to death for disobedience? Would you consider a parent who does this evil, or simply carrying out the will of your God?

See, you do not even know the question you asked, even though it is clearly spelt out on top of the same thread you created. Proof of Madness!

Wilgrea7:

Strawmanning. Of course we said things like that. But that doesn't mean we meant that our parents would actually commit acts of murder.

It is sufficient that you have spoken the Truth in confirmation of the Truth of my answer, that we have all confessed the experience of death via whoopings, beltings, Canings, Wirings, Shoeings, Slappings, knockings on the head and insultings/verbal abusings etc WHICH WAS ONE OF MY POINTS!!

Case Closed!

Wilgrea7:

... I posted bible verses that showed otherwise, and you're still pushing your "they attacked first narrative". Welldone o

Fool! This was AFTER THOSE EVIL BASTARDS HAD ALREADY ATTACKED THEM EARLIER THE WAY YOU HAVE COME TO ATTACK GOD NOW!!

Do you see why you should read well before you open your mouth to start speaking stupidly?

Wilgrea7:

This same logic can be used to justify the actions of mentally deranged people I asked you a simple question. If your God asked you to sacrifice your child to him, would you do it? Why or why not

Change of Post! The question you asked is very clearly stated on top of the thread and it is not about mentally deranged people or if I would obey God's Commands.

So, Out of Point!

Wilgrea7:



So because I bothered to ask questions about the apparent barbaric behaviors exhibited in your old testament, you're now cursing me all of a sudden

Psalm 107:17
Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted. (Cursed)

Proverbs 19:29 KJV
Judgments (Curses) are prepared for scorners, and stripes (Curse) for the back of fools.

Case Closed!

Dtruthspeaker:


Don't need to. God always packages something specific to each person so his own package is coming.

By FedEx, UPS, or DHL?

Dtruthspeaker:


See it!

You prove you are very stupid for you my answer, EVEN TWICE and because you could not find any thing to say, you had to say "this proves what".

Every single time you respond.. i anticipate a somewhat reasonable answer. But all I get are the same old insults and evasion tactics.

You purposely ignore the questions i ask and edit them out of the quoted response, to focus on the things which are irrelevant tonthe post.

You rush in here foaming at the mouth like a mad dog without offering a single rebuttal, or a single answer to the questions raised.

You sir, are the definition of a clown.

Change of Post! The topic of the thread is very clearly spelt out on top which is "about the justification of God's Acts in the old testament" and not on whether who supports the stoning of any one.

So you see, your head does not work well and so you do not think well

See, you do not even know the question you asked, even though it is clearly spelt out on top of the same thread you created. Proof of Madness!

This is the second time I'm reminding you what the thread says. You should really consider getting glasses.

The thread is for people who try to justify the barbaric acts committed in the Old Testament.. and more specifically.. the ones committed on behalf of their God.

If you for some reason think they were just, then the follow-up questions are for you.

I've said it multiple times.. if you have nothing to say, just admit it. The endless insults and evasion tactics are clear to any honest observer.

It is sufficient that you have spoken the Truth in confirmation of the Truth of my answer, that we have all confessed the experience of death via whoopings, beltings, Canings, Wirings, Shoeings, Slappings, knockings on the head and insultings/verbal abusings etc WHICH WAS ONE OF MY POINTS!!

Case Closed!

The fact that you're trying so hard to change what words mean, only proves my point.

You want to equate a command, literally telling people to hurl stones at disobedient children till they're dead, to statements we used to make about the beatings we received as children.. which were never meant, or intended to cause death.

You have the boldness to say something as illogical as "confessing the experience of death via whoopings, beltings, Canings, Wirings, Shoeings, Slappings, knockings on the head and insultings/verbal abusings"

Is that sort of figurative death in any way equal to the literal death sanctioned in the old testament.. where disobedient children are stoned till they're lifeless?

Just how intellectually honest as a person are you??

Fool! This was AFTER THOSE EVIL BASTARDS HAD ALREADY ATTACKED THEM EARLIER THE WAY YOU HAVE COME TO ATTACK GOD NOW!!

Do you see why you should read well before you open your mouth to start speaking stupidly?

After? After what exactly? Please show me where God made that statement after the attacks. Show me how the statement made by your God in Deuteronomy 7, was made after the Israelites were attacked from the tribes listed there.

Change of Post! The question you asked is very clearly stated on top of the thread and it is not about mentally deranged people or if I would obey God's Commands.

So, Out of Point!

No. Very much related to the point. You're the one who finds the barbaric acts committed in the OT justifiable because your God commanded it.

So i ask you again, if he asked you to do the same, would you??

Psalm 107:17
Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted. (Cursed)

Proverbs 19:29 KJV
Judgments (Curses) are prepared for scorners, and stripes (Curse) for the back of fools.

Case Closed!

Curse me all you want. It doesn't change affect a single point I raised here. Your failure to answer my questions only shows the double standard by which you judge obviously barbaric acts.

Wilgrea7:


I don't know how you possibly thought this writeup would do anything to strengthen your argument.. but ok.

Your claim of “shaking the world" or making the sun and moon and whatever hear their voices is something that occurs even in faiths you consider fake.

According to your bible.. Moses, with the help of your God split the red sea.. Joshua stopped the sun.. Elijah rode on a chariot of fire to somewhere apparently.

But claims like this exist in other religions too.

Mohammed supposedly split the moon in two. The Hindu god Krishna, was said to have lifted up a mountain with one finger. You get the point.

Whose God do these alleged miracles now prove? I guess we better start worshipping those other Gods now shouldn't we?

You have failed woefully. Truly, my enemies are many here. Una don tire already.

Wilgrea7:


Lmao.. you want me to expose sensitive information about myself on a public forum ?

Nah ... Not happening. Pray to your God and ask him to tell you instead.

In the meantime... If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion... Just say so. Don't derail the thread.

Really? But you could spew all sorts of garbage here because it is a faceless forum, huh? If you are sure of what you are saying, you should be able to say them anywhere. Don't you agree? Does light hide? Do people hide something good. If you, wilgrea7, believe that what you are offering is the light, a better light, even, don't hide behind a faceless forum.

God is not an author of confusion