AuthenticKing:

What proof do you need? The research is there for you.
Besides, these guys created these laws crediting themselves not their god.

Please give me links to the research you are talking about. On the other hand, we can both look at a few tribes in Nigeria and how their religions shaped their morality. Religion has always defined what is good and bad. When you are ready send me links to your research, and I would be here. but for the main time, I see no need of arguing without facts.

AuthenticKing:

The bolded made me laugh How does that prove your Bible is true? Your Bible came centuries/millennials after existing laws and you're saying this proves your Bible is true.

Yes!

The fact that the Bible came after and started giving reports of past is its great value and in it, we see it showing us The Law in place, which no man made and when men began to go against The Law and fiddle with it.

AuthenticKing:

The writers of your Bible are just clever borrowers.

Or the others borrowed from them. This Truth, we would never find.

AuthenticKing:

Mtchew. You're the one who loves to change posts and insult. You'll never see yourself as someone who loves to insult others because they don't agree with you because you have 100% convinced yourself that you have the truth and others are wrong. That's dangerous.

That is the most untrue statement. There is a difference between saying something that is unpleasant and that which insults.

And I never leave the issue on record and most especially when everyone now knows that I would raise "Change of Post" when there is one, so, I know everyone is alert to my own change of post, if I ever truly change post.

Thirdly, the essence of an argument is to find out that which is Naturally True or True in Nature which we can use to live on it and not fall or get into trouble. So agreement has no place here. Just Truths! Truths we can all use gainfully and profitability.

AuthenticKing:

The old testament proves that your God is just like the men you mentioned and I don't know why you love to categorize atheists as evil people, it's indeed very wrong. The bias is overwhelming.

I disagree with those who say old/new testament. They are same testament and the Bible is One. (But this is not the issue)

Secondly, the Bible did say that God made men to be like Him, therefore, you confirm this Truth. However, we also see where men are not being like God.

And thirdly, even here, most atheists here have proven that they are evil by their ease and willingness and even pleasure in the doing of that which is evil.

This is even flowing from the fact that it is also proven beyond doubt that even ordinary people are given towards doing that which is not good even though they have some fear of retaliatory harm, which at least slows their willingness. So how can a person who does not care about his own direct harm, with the same desire for being wicked, therefore not be more evil than the regular ordinary folks?

The way they are wicked and very wicked even in here has already settled this.

AuthenticKing:

It hasn't. Man makes laws regardless of religion.

Deviation of post! I did not say anything about man making laws regarding religion.

AuthenticKing:

The Bible and the Bible God are very irrelevant here because they were creatures of men centuries/millennials after existing laws.

Another Departure from Post! The issue is not whether men created the Bible after existing laws. (One would say whose existing laws? But this is not the issue either)

AuthenticKing:


You claimed our understanding of Justice and society is based on religion and that is what I don't agree with you in.
Of course, man made religion to comfort themselves after the death of a loved one, to explain things they couldn't understand and so on. But before mainstream religions, many made laws independent of religion and these are what created our understanding of Justice. Rituals predates religion and religion predates the secular, yes I agree with you but religion didn't initially have any influence on our understanding of Justice, men did.

As far as is possible to see those countries which have undisputable and defined legals, all have their legal history based on God (Religion) whether America o eh American Declaration of independence (1776) already shows you that God was in it where it said

"We hold THESE TRUTHS TO BE SELF-EVIDENT, that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, that THEY ARE ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR WITH CERTAIN UNALIENABLE RIGHTS, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

English legal history started around the 1100's.

And this is where the Romans Lead for they have the oldest verifiable and settled legal history greater and better than all the countries in existence today which has its history starting as far as 449BC

So, the facts say that you are not correct.

The two arguments for 1) human morality vs god morality i recall are:

#1 God is, per definition, good.
Their argument is based on the assumption that he is ultimately perfect. A perfect thing cant be wrong, and thats the argument to shut down any further discussion.
Of course the creator of everything could something else but all-benevolent, but i think many (Abrahamic) theists are fully aware of the problems with their gods morality and actions (genocide, rape, incest, death for collecting sticks on the wrong day, etc), and the impossibility to defend any of this, thus the extension from all powerful to benevolent. Of course its only a variation of #2

#2 Might makes right
He created everything, thus he can do what he wants, aka. "right or wrong does not matter". The base problem being the same: How to defend the indefensible? Claim it does not need to be defended at all.

Both arguments are intended to shut down any conversation, not to have one.

2) Objective morals
Many theists i have seen, just like the clowns who saturate this forum, are simply uninformed about the meaning of objective.
They know/sense that "objective" is something that can hardly be attacked (aka. another shutdown argument), but conflate their gods absolute morality with this. "God says so" is not objective, without a reason why he says so. Dont ask me why. Probably some snake oil sales men sold it to them. But as i understand it all boils down to 1): He is right. Dont ask, period. The abrahamic religions are imho extremely authoritarian, and its no wonder that authoritarianism was for so long the form of secular governance, until secularisation and separation of state and religion.
Still there is a problem with that. On one hand their god makes proclamation about absolute morals (thou shalt not kill) and then proceeds to commit genocide.

But i am a mere amateur on these issues. Others may be better to discuss that with you. I am not someone very deep into philosophy and ethics. At least not for the in depth discussions (they make my head spin tbh)

tctrills:
Religion has always defined what is good and bad.

Number one, it’s a straw man argument. number two, it is a nonsensical argument. Number three, it is lie. You have never heard a word out of the mouth of “religion” just like gods’ words never come out of their mouths.
Moral codes would be present in groups before religions were developed just like moral codes are present in groups without religion.

You can keep insisting that religion did something or the other while ignoring the fact that people create and practice religion, but that is just ridiculous.

People have always defined what is good and bad including the religions they create.

tctrills:

You actually don't know who created the spiritual but let's hear your opinion. I am sure it would be interesting.

People create “spirituality”. You are probably Christian so your “spirituality” was created by those who studied Plato’s “forms”. Interesting enough? Lol

KnownUnknown:

Moral codes would be present in groups before religions were developed just like moral codes are present in groups without religion...

And which came first, (Law) Morals or people?

Secondly, none of you have still not presented any people whose origin of Law is not founded on religion.

Dtruthspeaker:


And which came first, (Law) Morals or people?

People.

KnownUnknown:


People.

Wrong!

It is The Law.

Secondly, none of you have still not presented any people whose origin of Law is not founded on religion.

Dtruthspeaker:


Wrong!

It is The Law.

Secondly, none of you have still not presented any people whose origin of Law is not founded on religion.

We are not talking about law but morality, and no one is going to argue based on your nonsensical definitions. Lastly, laws are not based on religion. Religion can of course influence laws and morality.

Law is not morality because laws are judged based on their morality. It was once a “law” in parts America that people had to use different fountains, then said law was judged immoral and struck down.

When you find the “law” that precedes humans, keep it to yourself. My capacity for nonsense is limited.

KnownUnknown:


We are not talking about Law but morality and no one is going to argue based on your nonsensical definitions.

That is what you do not know and what you do not want to know, as is your right.

But right now, I am The Authority on this subject for I went as far as is possible to understand the distinction between them as is commonly taught and I authoritatively say to the sum of N20,000k that

Morality is Law and Law is Morality.

And that N20k is for anyone who can show and prove by lawful and valid reasonable argument if I am Wrong

Offer lasts till end of Sabbath 4:00pm

Dtruthspeaker:


That is what you do not know and what you do not want to know, as is your right.

But right now, I am The Authority on this subject for I went as far as is possible to understand the distinction between them as is commonly taught and I authoritatively say to the sum of N20,000k that

Morality is Law and Law is Morality.

And that N20k is for anyone who can show and prove by lawful and valid reasonable argument if I am Wrong

Offer lasts till end of Sabbath 4:00pm

$27.21 !!!!! Look at Mr. Deep Pockets!!

KnownUnknown:


$28!!!!! Look at Mr. Deep Pockets!!

I could make it a $100 in physical American dollars but "just-is" tells me this is excessive and wrong, and that your answer would not be any different if the take is increased,

so take up the challenge or rest, that is your right.

KnownUnknown:

Lastly, laws are not based on religion. Religion can of course influence laws and morality.

You have said that before and it has been rebutted and challenged and you are not able to counter, so this is no thing.

KnownUnknown:


Law is not morality because laws are judged based on their morality. It was once a “law” in parts America that people had to use different fountains, then said law was judged immoral and struck down.

do you not see that this confession has already killed you?

Law is based on morality, like a house is based on foundation. And foundations are always parts of the house.

See it! You have already destroyed your assertion with your own bomb!

Dtruthspeaker:


I could make it a $100 in physical American dollars but "just-is" tells me this is excessive and wrong, and that your answer would not be any different if the take is increased,

so take up the challenge or rest, that is your right.

Tell “Just-is” to lend you the rest of $72.79, then come back and post your challenge.

Dtruthspeaker:


You that before and it has been rebutted and challenged and you are not able to counter, so this is no thing.



do you not see that this confession has already killed you?

Law is based on morality, like a house is based on foundation. And foundations are always parts of the house.

See it! You have already destroyed your assertion with your own bomb!

Of course, just like the house called world.

KnownUnknown:


People create “spirituality”. You are probably Christian so your “spirituality” was created by those who studied Plato’s “forms”. Interesting enough? Lol

Ok your opinion is respected.

KnownUnknown:

Number one, it’s a straw man argument. number two, it is a nonsensical argument. Number three, it is lie. You have never heard a word out of the mouth of “religion” just like gods’ words never come out of their mouths.
Moral codes would be present in groups before religions were developed just like moral codes are present in groups without religion.

You can keep insisting that religion did something or the other while ignoring the fact that people create and practice religion, but that is just ridiculous.

People have always defined what is good and bad including the religions they create.

Now you are going around in circles. It's time to move on. We can't remain stuck with the same talking points. You should know that. You waited 3 days just to repeat the same talking points. wow.

tctrills:
Now you are going around in circles. It's time to move on. We can't remain stuck with the same talking points. You should know that. You waited 3 days just to repeat the same talking points. wow.

I gave the answer 3 days ago but you kept insisting that “religion created” as if religion is a conscious agent and not something practiced by humans.

KnownUnknown:


I gave the answer 3 days ago but you kept insisting that “religion created” as if religion is a conscious agent and not something practiced by humans.

Does that not show you that the debate was going nowhere? If you choose to bring it up again, it should be because you have a new angle to discuss and I would be interested if you have something new to talk about.

KnownUnknown:


Of course, just like the house called world.

Just like this House called the world!

KnownUnknown:


Tell “Just-is” to lend you the rest of $72.79, then come back and post your challenge.

You have already blown up yourself with your confession, so no $100 or $28 for you. It has now moved to the next contestant

chryssanthe:
.. but i think many (Abrahamic) theists are fully aware of the problems with their gods morality and actions (genocide, rape, incest, death for collecting sticks on the wrong day, etc), and the impossibility to defend any of this, thus the extension from all powerful to benevolent.

And I have proven that all these allegations made are either Lies or False Representations or circumstances which any and every reasonable person understands that actions are supposed to have their corresponding consequences in accordance with Law and Just-is.

But we all know that in the eye of criminals, Law and Just is, is unfair because criminals desire a state where they commit crimes and consume the fruits of their crimes yet no one punishing them for it, which is why they hate God and speak lies and everything evil against Him.

But let a crime be done against a criminal eg steal from a thief. The world no go hear word again.

chryssanthe:

#2 Might makes right
He created everything, thus he can do what he wants, aka. "right or wrong does not matter". The base problem being the same: How to defend the indefensible? Claim it does not need to be defended at all.

When you have one day gone to the courts of the ants who have accused you of killing them because they trespassed your phone, maybe you paid damages to them there, then you can come and speak on this issue. Till then The Law states

"He who exercises his rights, does no wrong"!

chryssanthe:
...but conflate their gods absolute morality with this. "God says so" is not objective, without a reason why he says so. Dont ask me why. Probably some snake oil sales men sold it to them. But as i understand it all boils down to 1): He is right. Dont ask, period. The abrahamic religions are imho extremely authoritarian, and its no wonder

On one hand their god makes proclamation about absolute morals (thou shalt not kill) and then proceeds to commit genocide.

As I always say, you can not give an order that everyone in your house should be in your house by 10pm and that law would apply to you. Impossible

Your Law covers only those lesser than you, which is why The Law giver is always above The Law.

The Law is a servant of The Lawgiver and a Master to those it is greater than.

So, God's Laws do not apply to Him the same way the laws of your car and phone and even your children do not apply to you.

That is what we God Fearers, know!

tctrills:
Please give me links to the research you are talking about. On the other hand, we can both look at a few tribes in Nigeria and how their religions shaped their morality. Religion has always defined what is good and bad. When you are ready send me links to your research, and I would be here. but for the main time, I see no need of arguing without facts.

Hmmm. I came back yesterday stressed out, opened nairaland and the replies were too many so I had to sleep to come back today to reply.

Ok then, I chose to do what I asked you to by going back to research again on the codes of Ur-Narmu and Hammurabi unbiased and then found out that these men actually gave credit to their gods but made the laws themselves and even administered the laws themselves. So my claim that they didn't give credit to their gods wasn't true and I apologise for that.
[url] https://www.worldhistory.org/Ur-Nammu/ [/url] Here is one of the links I got my info from, Wikipedia is another source. There were other books I read in the past but I can't remember them.

But then while thinking about this today, I came with two important points for you to think about:

Firstly, citing my initial reply to you when you wrote that Mohammed saw an angel and Jesus is the son of God, if we consider the codes of Ur-Narmu, Hammurabi, etc. The laws of the Bible, Qur'an, Torah, etc. We notice something very significant.
These religions have never agreed with themselves fully.
The disparity in the laws of these religions becomes a problem when you're claiming that religions are the foundation of our morality (not humans). We humans whether religious or not always never agree with ourselves and this causes our morality or laws to be subjective according to culture, time and place, these differences appear in our religions. Don't you still think that we humans are still the ones not only making these laws or creating morality and giving the credit to the gods or the spirits but also creating the religions themselves?

There have been different gods with different characteristics since history, and they do not agree with themselves. If we still look at the followers of each god, they also seem not to agree with themselves. Christianity, for example is divided into different sects and these sects have different opinions on what God wants. I know you're religious but can you just step back for a moment and try to deduce what is happening here. Don't you see that humans are simply making laws on what they believe to be right and wrong and then giving credit to God or gods?

Secondly, you cited a few tribes in Nigeria that base their morality from their religion and if I might presume, you would also cite how America got their morality from the 'Judeo-Christian' tradition and other nations/cultures you could cite. But then, looking at the way things have changed overtime: How many sane countries still kill twins? How many still do animal and human sacrifices? How many still stone non-virgins to death? How many still kill apostates? How many will forgive offenders/criminals based on the premise that a man who died 2000 years ago had acquitted for their crimes? How many would kill non-believers of a certain religion? How many still condone slavery, etc. I am asking of sane countries not countries who are still backward in thinking? If humans could outgrow these laws made by religions, what could give them the audacity to do that since religions are supposedly made by divine agents who have power over humans? Ain't you noticing something very significant here?

If I would coincide with you based on your argument that religions are the foundation of morality, then I wish to add this:

If religions influences the secular in making morality, then the secular actually refines morality influenced by religion to better suit the times
If religion made morality and laws, then man instructs religions on how to better uphold that morality

But nevertheless, I still maintain my stance that man made morality, religions, rituals and laws.

AuthenticKing:


Hmmm. I came back yesterday stressed out, opened nairaland and the replies were too many so I had to sleep to come back today to reply.

Ok then, I chose to do what I asked you to by going back to research again on the codes of Ur-Narmu and Hammurabi unbiased and then found out that these men actually gave credit to their gods but made the laws themselves and even administered the laws themselves. So my claim that they didn't give credit to their gods wasn't true and I apologise for that.
[url] https://www.worldhistory.org/Ur-Nammu/ [/url] Here is one of the links I got my info from, Wikipedia is another source. There were other books I read in the past but I can't remember them.

But then while thinking about this today, I came with two important points for you to think about:

Firstly, citing my initial reply to you when you wrote that Mohammed saw an angel and Jesus is the son of God, if we consider the codes of Ur-Narmu, Hammurabi, etc. The laws of the Bible, Qur'an, Torah, etc. We notice something very significant.
These religions have never agreed with themselves fully.
The disparity in the laws of these religions becomes a problem when you're claiming that religions are the foundation of our morality (not humans). We humans whether religious or not always never agree with ourselves and this causes our morality or laws to be subjective according to culture, time and place, these differences appear in our religions. Don't you still think that we humans are still the ones not only making these laws or creating morality and giving the credit to the gods or the spirits but also creating the religions themselves?

There have been different gods with different characteristics since history, and they do not agree with themselves. If we still look at the followers of each god, they also seem not to agree with themselves. Christianity, for example is divided into different sects and these sects have different opinions on what God wants. I know you're religious but can you just step back for a moment and try to deduce what is happening here. Don't you see that humans are simply making laws on what they believe to be right and wrong and then giving credit to God or gods?

Secondly, you cited a few tribes in Nigeria that base their morality from their religion and if I might presume, you would also cite our America got their morality from the 'Judeo-Christian' tradition and other nations/cultures you could cite. But then, looking at the way things have changed overtime: How many sane countries still kill twins? How many still do animal and human sacrifices? How many still stone non-virgins to death? How many still kill apostates? How many will forgive offenders/criminals based on the premise that a man who died 2000 years ago had acquitted for their crimes? How many would kill non-believers of a certain religion? How many still condone slavery, etc. I am asking of sane countries not countries who are still backward in thinking? If humans could outgrow these laws made by religions, what could give them the audacity to do that since religions are supposedly made by divine agents who have power over humans? Ain't you noticing something very significant here?

If I would coincide with you based on your argument that religions are the foundation of morality, then I wish to add this:

If religions influences the secular in making morality, then the secular actually refines morality influenced by religion to better suit the times
If religion made morality and laws, then man instructs religions on how to better uphold that morality

But nevertheless, I still maintain my stance that man made morality, religions, rituals and laws.

And I also maintain my stands

Dtruthspeaker:


Yes!

The fact that the Bible came after and started giving reports of past is its great value and in it, we see it showing us The Law in place, which no man made and when men began to go against The Law and fiddle with it.

Yen yen yen, the Bible is a book of fictions, legends, plagiarism and of course, some history. Your Bible issa copycat, simple!

Dtruthspeaker:

Or the others borrowed from them. This Truth, we would never find.

Lol lol lol. You're making this statement based on your strong beliefs that the Bible is the true word of God but 'thank God' your Bible came after these existing laws so your assumption is completely false.

Dtruthspeaker:

That is the most untrue statement. There is a difference between saying something that is unpleasant and that which insults.

And I never leave the issue on record and most especially when everyone now knows that I would raise "Change of Post" when there is one, so, I know everyone is alert to my own change of post, if I ever truly change post.

Thirdly, the essence of an argument is to find out that which is Naturally True or True in Nature which we can use to live on it and not fall or get into trouble. So agreement has no place here. Just Truths! Truths we can all use gainfully and profitability.

Yen yen yen, I've observed you keenly on this platform, you're an expert rubbing your beliefs on people and you use all sorts of devices to achieve that, by sounding authoritarian and not just insulting them but cursing them with the name of your God, of course you also try to engage in healthy arguments sometimes but you do more of the authoritarian and cursing tactic.
But let me give you a very simplistic analogy on how truth works, e.g. 1 + 1 = 2, it's a universal truth and remains the same all round the world, you can't argue against it and no one resorts to cursing others who don't agree with it, they simply show them proof on why it is so but you know one problem with your "truth" (there are so many of them), there's no raw evidence of it.

Dtruthspeaker:

I disagree with those who say old/new testament. They are same testament and the Bible is One. (But this is not the issue)

Even your Bible specified what you're disagreeing with.

Dtruthspeaker:

Secondly, the Bible did say that God made men to be like Him, therefore, you confirm this Truth. However, we also see where men are not being like God.

Of course, men are always being like the God of the Bible through genocide, anger, jealousy, constantly reminding people of who they are, etc. We are truly made in the image of God!

Dtruthspeaker:

And thirdly, even here, most atheists here have proven that they are evil by their ease and willingness and even pleasure in the doing of that which is evil.

Same with Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc.

Dtruthspeaker:

This is even flowing from the fact that it is also proven beyond doubt that even ordinary people are given towards doing that which is not good even though they have some fear of retaliatory harm, which at least slows their willingness. So how can a person who does not care about his own direct harm, with the same desire for being wicked, therefore not be more evil than the regular ordinary folks?

The way they are wicked and very wicked even in here has already settled this.

This is a very nonsensical statement made by not just you but many Christians and Muslims. Evidence shows that every man commits evil, it's not exclusive to atheists.

tctrills:

And I also maintain my stands

It's fine.

Dtruthspeaker:


Deviation of post! I did not say anything about man making laws regarding religion.

You said the issue of man making laws has been obliterated and I insisted that it hasn't, man makes laws.

Dtruthspeaker:

Another Departure from Post! The issue is not whether men created the Bible after existing laws. (One would say whose existing laws? But this is not the issue either)

You said we can look beyond man and that's where the Bible and God takes the lead and I insisted the both are irrelevant since they appeared after existing laws.

Dtruthspeaker:


As far as is possible to see those countries which have undisputable and defined legals, all have their legal history based on God (Religion) whether America o eh American Declaration of independence (1776) already shows you that God was in it where it said

"We hold THESE TRUTHS TO BE SELF-EVIDENT, that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, that THEY ARE ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR WITH CERTAIN UNALIENABLE RIGHTS, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

English legal history started around the 1100's.

And this is where the Romans Lead for they have the oldest verifiable and settled legal history greater and better than all the countries in existence today which has its history starting as far as 449BC

So, the facts say that you are not correct.

Lol. My statement was based on fact that your Bible borrowed from the codes of Ur-Narmu, Hammurabi, Eshuanna and other codes that existed before it and the Americans supposedly based their morality on this Bible.
Those codes are also verifiable just like the Romans too and of course, the Romans had gods before your God appeared.

KnownUnknown:


People create “spirituality”. You are probably Christian so your “spirituality” was created by those who studied Plato’s “forms”. Interesting enough? Lol

They don't know . This idea of world of forms was rebranded into heaven and hell, Christians are just perfect borrowers.