I wonder if all this Catholics fanatics ever read the Bible by themselves. Their religion practice is absolutely contradictory to the commandment of God, but they are so brain washed that they do not see it nor try to discover where they actually belong. My advice to all those belonging to Catholic fraternity is, Read the Bible Good and also check out and read the history of the Catholic origin, and repent or else,

locoman:

I wonder if all this Catholics fanatics ever read the Bible by themselves.

Dear locoman,

Lol. . . let's not over-react to some of the issues that puzzle us in Catholicism. Isn't it true that some of us evangelicals (or Protestants) are fanatical? Isn't it true that some of us evangelicals (or Protestants) do NOT read or study our Bibles?

I think if we try to endure and show a bit more understanding and love, we can share our convictions in a warm and inviting manner. Who knows, we may make more friends listen . . . than make them feel sorry for their fanaticism.

Just my observation.

Cheers.

@pilgrim.1

I think we need to convey this message of truth to them which ever way they will understand so as free them from this religious slavery they have found themselves. I love them anyway.

The man who is free from religious slavery is one who doesn't feel he is bound to be in church every Sunday.
No particular church or sect is perfect.

@Douzy

You are quit right, no church is perfect, but we should try as much as possible to correct what is within our reach. The act of bowing down to saint peter and the image of Mary and the rest sculpture they called saints is contrary to the scripture. The Bible states that we should not make any image of any likeness of the things in Heaven, Earth, beneath the Earth and in the sea nor bow down to them, on the contrary that is what you find in the Roman Catholic so called churches.

Sweetheart, they are so many threads like this

@Locoman,

Let me ask you again, even as I have stated this somewhere in another thread. Why do you hang Jesus Christ pictures in your house? Don’t you know that pictures are still images? Why do you liken God to a Lamb? Don’t you know that a Lamb is Imageries? Why do you liken the Holy Spirit to a Dove – Bird? Don’t you know it is Imageries? Have you not read in the bible where God said “you should not make any images or liken Him with anything in Heaven or on earth or beneath the earth" Remember the Covenant Box used by the Israelites to serve God in the Old Testament was an Image of wood caved by a human being, yet God approved it and manifested His Spirit and Powers in it. When you answer these questions, then, I will address you. Though, you are entitled to your belief.

locoman:

@pilgrim.1

I think we need to convey this message of truth to them which ever way they will understand so as free them from this religious slavery they have found themselves. I love them anyway.

Okay, I agree with you - as long as we do so as lovingly as we possibly could.

- - - -

ebos:

@Locoman,

Let me ask you again, even as I have stated this somewhere in another thread. Why do you hang Jesus Christ pictures in your house? Don’t you know that pictures are still images?

Lol, ebos. You shouldn't assume that every person you converse with MUST actually be hanging pictures of "Jesus Christ" in their houses. If you rather seek to understand WHY people have their convictions on certain issues, it would go a long way to sort out issues. Abi?

pilgrim.1:

Okay, I agree with you - as long as we do so as lovingly as we possibly could.

- - - -

Lol, ebos. You shouldn't assume that every person you converse with MUST actually be hanging pictures of "Jesus Christ" in their houses. If you rather seek to understand WHY people have their convictions on certain issues, it would go a long way to sort out issues. Abi?

Pilgrim, You know, I need to point that too. Some people do forget their own mistakes. I cannot imagine someone who hang Jesus pictures in his house pointing accusing fingers at Catholic Church. You may not understand what I mean. Even, if the person don't have the pictures in his house, at least his heart tells him that the picture(s) hanging there is Jesus. However, I love hearing your points on why those Images are wrong. That is why we are sharing. If you can convince me, good, but I doubt if it will be possible.

@Locoman
Everyone knows exactly how or when a particular denomination started-We know,for instance, that King Henry VIII was behind the Anglican Church and that Martin Luther was behind the Lutherans or that John Wesley was behind the Methodists.

Nobody seems to have a credible explanation about how the Catholic Church started.If it has nothing to do with the early Christian Church,then who started it,when and how?

@ebos,

ebos:

Pilgrim, You know, I need to point that too. Some people do forget their own mistakes. I cannot imagine someone who hang Jesus pictures in his house pointing accusing fingers at Catholic Church. You may not understand what I mean.

I've come a long way to learn the beautiful lesson of first and foremost trying to LISTEN to others. And that's why I'm doing my best to hear people out FIRST before trying to share anything with them.

I've made mistakes as well. But I've come to understand by experience that it is easier to dialogue when people imbibe a good listening disposition FIRST. That's why I'm seeking to understand your persuasions, so that we could share issues more sensibly.

ebos:

Even, if the person don't have the pictures in his house, at least his heart tells him that the picture(s) hanging there is Jesus.

Uhm. . . I don't understand. But how is it possible that if the person doesn't have the pictures in his house, he could yet be thinking of "the picture(s) hanging there"? Pictures hanging WHERE?

ebos:

However, I love hearing your points on why those Images are wrong. That is why we are sharing. If you can convince me, good, but I doubt if it will be possible.

Lol. . . ebos dear, like *"Ukwa" you have already concluded! How do I begin to share matters with anyone when they've made up their minds that they "doubt if it will be possible"?!? Lol, I'm willing to share - but it's going to be difficult doing so if I'm already asked to NOT waste my time!

Hugs.

I-man:

Nobody seems to have a credible explanation about how the Catholic Church started.If it has nothing to do with the early Christian Church,then who started it,when and how?

Haha. . I-man, if the Catholic Church had anything to do with the early Christian Church, we would not be wondering about the hugely contrasting gap between what we read in the Bible, and what we see being practised today as Catholicism.

Do you care to offer us a credible explanation for the beginnings of the Catholic Church?

pilgrim.1:

Haha. . I-man, if the Catholic Church had anything to do with the early Christian Church, we would not be wondering about the hugely contrasting gap between what we read in the Bible, and what we see being practised today as Catholicism.

Do you care to offer us a credible explanation for the beginnings of the Catholic Church?

mind pointing out these contrasting things?

In my opinion, it is regretable to accuse others whose belief differ from yours as not following the truth. This is because your own perception of the truth is governed by your own experiencing whether physical or spiritual. No two individuals are identical in physical and spiritual experiences even when they read the same bible and attend the same church. That in part explains why every religion have several denomination and it will always remain that way. Perceptions of truth is not the same thing as Truth. Thus interpretation will aways differ. The catholic church may have a lot of practices you disgree with but that is not a justification for making very sweeping statement on their belief. It is alway easy to point out what one considers to be wrong in the belief of others. But remember that it remains your opinion, your understanding, your personal experiences. It is wise to study the faiths of those different from yours in order to understand them better but not to pronounce judgement.

viee:

mind pointing out these contrasting things?

If you care, I would gladly oblige you.

Let's start with the issue of the Papacy. I don't know of any other segment of Christianity that has a papacy system of the 'Pope' than the Roman Catholic Church - and we may not be far wrong to say that without the Papacy, the Catholic Church would not be such.

I'd like to start with that one and serve issues piecemeal as we go along.

Could you demonstrate soundly that the Papacy system dates back to early Christianity in the days of the Apostles - as we read in the Bible?

Cheers.

pilgrim.1:

Do you care to offer us a credible explanation for the beginnings of the Catholic Church?

Isn't the point that it is up to you to explain the the genealogy of Catholicism,sinc you insist it has nothing to do with the Early Church.Then how,when and who founded it?  

m_nwankwo:

In my opinion, it is regretable to accuse others whose belief differ from yours as not following the truth. This is because your own perception of the truth is governed by your own experiencing whether physical or spiritual. No two individuals are identical in physical and spiritual experiences even when they read the same bible and attend the same church.

Could you kindly send that message to the Pope? When he made that statement, we didn't read sympathizers calling his attention that it was wrong.

pilgrim.1:

Could you demonstrate soundly that the Papacy system dates back to early Christianity in the days of the Apostles - as we read in the Bible?

Cheers.

Please don't engage in diversion.It is up to you and you alone to tell us how,when and who founded the Catholic Church.You have been telling us that Catholic doctrine contradicts the Bible but that doesn't tell us how the Church originated

I-man:

Isn't the point that it is up to you to explain the the genealogy of Catholicism,sinc you insist it has nothing to do with the Early Church.Then how,when and who founded it?

I-man:

Please don't engage in diversion. It is up to you and you alone to tell us how,when and who founded the Catholic Church.You have been telling us that Catholic doctrine contradict the Bible but that doesn't tell us how the Church originated

It probably looks like it is up to me to explain what I have NOT asserted. All I wanted was that you chaps show us HOW Catholicism dates back to the Apostles, when in fact we read something quite different in the Bible.

As viee has requested, I've offered that no credible discussant can defend the Papcy from the Bible. NO? Then let's see how you connect that to the Apostles.

@Pilgrim
Yea, I have already concluded, but I love listening to others, principally the way you follow it all makes me to listen, even as I read Islamic Books but that does not make me believe. I can respect them when I read their books about them only if the stuffing worth the respect. I can tell you the origin of Catholic Church but you may not believe any atom. So, needless going to it?

ebos:

So, needless going to it?

I don't have a closed mind, and that's why I'd rather state up-front that it would be great to read from others.

You're right about reading Islamic books and yet not be persuaded to believe in Islam - which in many respects is borne out of the attitudes that we see in most Muslims around the world today.

However, like I said earlier, some of us Christians should also try and be lovingly open to listen FIRST, and then with good hearts share our convictions. The Holy Spirit will definitely bring light and refreshing to seekers of His truth.

im quite busy here but i will still take little time to explain. . .  . .
Pope? im really trying hard to understand what i should explain here
is it the fact that Christ practically gave Peter the assignment of building the church?

ok, lets even look at it from the point of view of human society,
every human society MUST have a leader

even in morden Churches, we have the likes of Senior Pastor, General Over seer
was this any where in the bible?

it is all in a bid to maintain order since we rae all HUMANS in the first place

as i said earlier, im not quite ure what u dnt understand about the POPE
so if i didnt answer your question, ask again, if i cant answer today
i will moro

I-man:

@Locoman
Everyone knows exactly how or when a particular denomination started-We know,for instance, that King Henry VIII was behind the Anglican Church and that Martin Luther was behind the Lutherans or that John Wesley was behind the Methodists.

Nobody seems to have a credible explanation about how the Catholic Church started.If it has nothing to do with the early Christian Church,then who started it,when and how?

Does the above constitute an assertion?

We know the origin of pretty much every Church in Christianity-Mountain of Fire,Redeemed,Methodist,Anglican,Zoe Ministry,Gbacha Fu Oya.e.tc .The Catholics say that there Church is the same as the Biblical Church.You say it is not,so what is it then?Is that too much to ask?

pilgrim.1:

It probably looks like it is up to me to explain what I have NOT asserted. All I wanted was that you chaps show us HOW Catholicism dates back to the Apostles, when in fact we read something quite different in the Bible.

As viee has requested, I've offered that no credible discussant can defend the Papcy from the Bible. NO? Then let's see how you connect that to the Apostles.

I-man:

Nobody seems to have a credible explanation about how the Catholic Church started.If it has nothing to do with the early Christian Church,then who started it,when and how?

Does the above constitute an assertion?

Check the highlighted part of that quote, repeated here again: "If it has nothing to do with the early Christian Church".

Is that not an assertive claim dressed up as a question?

It is just as though one could say:

         "If I am not telling the truth, then who rang the door bell?"

The speaker assumes that he was "telling the truth" - in just the same way that your inquisitive poser would be making an assertive claim that the Catholic Church had something to do with the early Church, not so?

I-man:

We know the origin of pretty much every Church in Christianity-Mountain of Fire,Redeemed,Methodist,Anglican,Zoe Ministry,Gbacha Fu Oya.e.tc .The Catholics say that there Church is the same as the Biblical Church.You say it is not,so what is it then?Is that too much to ask?

Again, please note the highlighted part: "The Catholics say that there Church is the same as the Biblical Church" - it is a claim that should be queried; and No, what you have asked is not too much!

In answering, I've offered that the Papacy did not originate with the early Church - and I've discussed this before (please refer to the link). If you guys are convince that the Apostles had a Papacy system, please demonstrate the same from the Bible.

Now what I'm asking also could not be too much, abi? 

@Pilgrim

i think I'm begging to understand where you are coming from
just for argument sake, what happened to the early church?
since you refuse too believe that the CATHOLIC CHURCH has nothing to do with the early Chucho
how did it manage to over shadow the early church and i presume the real church since the catholic according to the topic are idol worshippers?

i wonder how how GOD allowed the idol worshippers to completely over shadow the REAL and early church.


care to explain this to me

@m_nwankwo, ebo and I-man

Any so call church that has no foundation build on Christ is of course not for Christ. The Roman Catholic (church, so to say) was instituted to compromise with the early Christian persecuting by Emperor Constantine. This compromise was a big blunder on the side of the pagan emperor Constantine who try to limit the killing of the early believers.

All that pagan stuff, the sign of the cross, veneration of saints, the Mass. It was the pagan Emperor Constantine who brought that stuff into the church at the instigation of corrupt Gentiles.

The Catholic Church began with the Council of Nicaean in 325 AD! Before that date the Church was pure!

DO YOU NEED MORE?

@Pilgrim Read

St. Clement of Rome, who knew both of these Apostles personally, himself asserted: "The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the Apostles by Christ . . . Our apostles also knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, they appointed those (ministers) already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions that other approved men should succeed them in the ministry" (Letter to Corinthians, 42; 44).
Clement's namesake of Alexandria in like manner speaks of the organization of the Church in Asia Minor: "When he (St. John the Evangelist) returned to Ephesus from the Isle of Patmos after the tyrant's death, he visited the neighboring nations by request, partly to appoint bishops, partly to organize and form whole churches, partly also that he might enroll in the clergy any of those whom the Spirit had designated" (How Shall the Rich be Saved!, 42).
Clement of Alexandria wrote a century after John's death, but a hundred years previously this same notion of episcopal authority in the Church in succession to the Apostles had been stressed by St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, who knew John personally: "Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop . . . Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude (of faithful) also be, even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Smyrneans, .
Here about 107 A.D. occurs the first use known of the term "Catholic." By coincidence the name seems to have originated in Antioch, first point of contact of the Church with the Gentile world, where already it had received the name Christian: "In Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christians" (Acts 11:26). Later St. Pacian of Barcelona correlated these terms: "Christian is my name, and Catholic my surname."

pilgrim.1:

Again, please note the highlighted part: "The Catholics say that there Church is the same as the Biblical Church" - it is a claim that should be queried; and No, what you have asked is not too much!

It can be queried but in such a query,an alternative explanation should be given as to the origin of Catholicism.It is not enough to say that the Church has nothing to do with the Early Church.One has to then explain how the Catholic Church came into existence and what happened to the "Biblical Church" since both aren't the same.

You have told me what the Catholic Church isn't-You haven't told me what the Church is.

locoman:

The Catholic Church began with the Council of Nicaean in 325 AD! Before that date the Church was pure!

DO YOU NEED MORE?

So what happened to the Biblical Church after that? Is it now found in Zoe Ministry,Redeemed,Anglican,Mormon.Protestantism broke out of the Catholic Church,why form new churches when they could have simply joined the "Biblical Church"?

@viee,

viee:

i think I'm begging to understand where you are coming from
just for argument sake, what happened to the early church?
since you refuse too believe that the CATHOLIC CHURCH has nothing to do with the early Chucho

Two things here:

  (i) we know what happened in Church history - please read Acts 20:28-32 carefully.

 (ii) indeed, I did NOT refuse to believe; but I certainly believe - that the Catholic Church has nothing to do with the early Church.

viee:

how did it manage to over shadow the early church and i presume the real church since the catholic according to the topic are idol worshippers?

First, I don't think I've accused the Catholic Church directly of idol worship.

Second, as to the 'overshadow', Acts 20:28-30 still refers. If that's hard to believe, then check the following:

Matt. 13:25 - "But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way."

Have you ever tried to compare tares and wheat? They LOOK the same does not mean they ARE the same!

Jer. 23:28  -- "The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD."

viee:

i wonder how how GOD allowed the idol worshippers to completely over shadow the REAL and early church.

God did not "allow" the idol worshippers to completely overshadow the REAL Church.

Matt. 16:18  -- "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

We've dealt with the verse before and shown that the Church is not founded on Peter (see I Cor. 3:11). But the point I'm trying to bring out in Matt. 16:18 is that Christ promised that the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against the Church - which goes to show that God did NOT allow idol worship to completely overshadow the Church (otherwise, there would not be any true Christian on earth today),

viee:

care to explain this to me

Just did.

Cheers.

Well, guys can't allow me to concentrate. Just give me 30-45mins. I will address you, they want to tear me in 6 here.

ebos:

@Pilgrim Read

St. Clement of Rome, who knew both of these Apostles personally, himself asserted: "The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the Apostles by Christ . . . Our apostles also knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, they appointed those (ministers) already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions that other approved men should succeed them in the ministry" (Letter to Corinthians, 42; 44).
Clement's namesake of Alexandria in like manner speaks of the organization of the Church in Asia Minor: "When he (St. John the Evangelist) returned to Ephesus from the Isle of Patmos after the tyrant's death, he visited the neighboring nations by request, partly to appoint bishops, partly to organize and form whole churches, partly also that he might enroll in the clergy any of those whom the Spirit had designated" (How Shall the Rich be Saved!, 42).
Clement of Alexandria wrote a century after John's death, but a hundred years previously this same notion of episcopal authority in the Church in succession to the Apostles had been stressed by St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, who knew John personally: "Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop . . . Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude (of faithful) also be, even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Smyrneans, .
Here about 107 A.D. occurs the first use known of the term "Catholic." By coincidence the name seems to have originated in Antioch, first point of contact of the Church with the Gentile world, where already it had received the name Christian: "In Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christians" (Acts 11:26). Later St. Pacian of Barcelona correlated these terms: "Christian is my name, and Catholic my surname."

@ebos,

I'm quite familiar with the writings of the Early/Church Fathers. In many respects, what we have in their epistles and writings do not tessellate with the Bible that the Catholic Church boasts it "wrote".

Second, Not in one instance do we read of a Papacy system such as the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) today speaks of. If there were, please show it.

Third, I want you to take not carefully of the insinuation that Clement supposedly made about John's appointment of BISHOPS:

       "When he (St. John the Evangelist) returned to Ephesus from the Isle of Patmos after the tyrant's death, he visited the neighboring
       nations by request, partly to appoint bishops, partly to organize and form whole churches, partly also that he might enroll in the
       clergy any of those whom the Spirit had designated"

When you and I discussed "bishops" and "Popes" in the other thread, I pointed out that BISHOPS were in the PLURAL (never singular). So tell me, when you look again at that quote, was John seeking out ONE man to appoint as POPE (singular) or he was set to appoint BISHOP[b]S[/b] (plural)?!?

Fourth, the term Catholic as used in Clement's letter did not mean the origin of the Roman Catholic Church dates back to the Apostles. In the first instance, we don't find it in the slightest inference in the Bible. If you do, please point it out. Second, we don't find any such system of what Catholicism in itself among the early Christians.

I've asked that we deal first with the Papacy before going on to other things - and as we advance, we'll come to see indeed that the idea that Catholicism began among the Apostles is not true.