Because a language sounds similar to the general Yoruba does not mean it evolved from Yoruba .

I've heard ignorant comments like "Igala is from Yoruba", "Itsekiri is a Yoruba dialect", "Your Yoruba is not pure", etc.

Bro, STFU , especially if the language is in the east. They're probably older.

LightOnScams:
Because a language sounds similar to the general Yoruba does not mean it evolved from Yoruba .

I've heard ignorant comments like "Igala is from Yoruba", "Itsekiri is a Yoruba dialect", "Your Yoruba is not pure", etc.

Bro, STFU , especially if the language is in the east. They're probably older.

Oga go find something better to do with yo life....

LightOnScams:
Because a language sounds similar to the general Yoruba does not mean it evolved from Yoruba .

I've heard ignorant comments like "Igala is from Yoruba", "Itsekiri is a Yoruba dialect", "Your Yoruba is not pure", etc.

Bro, STFU , especially if the language is in the east. They're probably older.

On purely linguistic grounds, no one can really present a solid defence as to why Itsekiri is a separate language. It clearly forms a cluster with southeastern Yoruba dialects (Ilaje, Ikale, Ijebu, etc.)

Itsekiri is, if we are being honest, a southeastern Yoruba dialect spoken by a people who did not take part in Yoruba ethnogenesis when it got underway in the 19th and 20the centuries.

Igala is a different kettle of fish though. It seems to have separated from the Proto-Yoruboid stock as long as 2000 years ago.

BigDick70inch:


Oga go find something better to do with yo life....

Okay.

RedboneSmith:


On purely linguistic grounds, no one can really present a solid defence as to why Itsekiri is a separate language. It clearly forms a cluster with southeastern Yoruba dialects (Ilaje, Ikale, Ijebu, etc.)

Itsekiri is, if we are being honest, a southeastern Yoruba dialect spoken by a people who did not take part in Yoruba ethnogenesis when it got underway in the 19th and 20the centuries.

Igala is a different kettle of fish though. It seems to have separated from the Proto-Yoruboid stock as long as 2000 years ago.

Yoruba, like we all know, is a recent ethnic term. According to Akin Ogundiran (2021), the term "Yoruba" evolved from the word "Yagba" in the 19th century during the slave trade era.

We understand that Itsekiri was left out in the formation of the Yoruba identity. But considering them a sub-group or dialect is what I don't agree with.

LightOnScams:

Yoruba, like we all know, is a recent ethnic term. According to Akin Ogundiran (2021), the term "Yoruba" evolved from the word "Yagba" in the 19th century during the slave trade era.

We understand that Itsekiri was left out in the formation of the Yoruba identity. But considering them a sub-group or dialect is what I don't agree with.

Agree or disagree, it doesn’t really matter objectively. Itsekiri is to Yoruba what the periphery of Enuani or Owere is to Igbo linguistically. There’s more than enough cultural divergence between Itsekiri and Yoruba for me not to consider Itsekiri people Yoruba (and to be honest I don’t; they’re more like Deltans) but they speak a dialect (a sweet one, no less), not a language.

The dialectal differences in Yoruba tbh are not even that drastic. Except we want to exaggerate them… Well, at least compared to some other languages I am conversant with.

Field work proved that prople as far west as Bante and Chetti (In Benin Republic) did not require a separate text to understand the so called Yoruba bible perfectly, and these are populations that were never exposed to MSY.

Then with the eastern dialects, intelligibility with SWY is usually more in one way that the other. Most likely because Oyo/Egba on which MSY is based on are like simplified EY. The Easterners will understand all the western speech, but the westerners will still grasp like 80% of an Ikale man.

Not only is your attribution to Akin Ogundiran a misrepresentation; your reply also has no bearing on the comment you quoted

LightOnScams:

Yoruba, like we all know, is a recent ethnic term. According to Akin Ogundiran (2021), the term "Yoruba" evolved from the word "Yagba" in the 19th century during the slave trade era.

The bolded is as false as it could get.

His actual words (which refutes your false attribution to him above) are as follows — word-for-word:

“By the turn of the sixteenth century [i.e. 1500s], if not much earlier, the ethnonym Yorùbá, a name that was adapted from Yàgbà, had gained currency across the Western and Central Sudan.”

Reference: Akin Ogundiran, “The Yoruba: A New History,” Indiana University Press (2020), page 247.

We understand that Itsekiri was left out in the formation of the Yoruba identity. But considering them a sub-group or dialect is what I don't agree with.

Some of your insinuation here have been refuted above.

Also, let the Itsekiri speak for themselves. And in so far as I know, they consider themselves to be in a way a Yorùbá group of people.

•
Cc: Probz, BanyXchi

LightOnScams:

Yoruba, like we all know, is a recent ethnic term. According to Akin Ogundiran (2021), the term "Yoruba" evolved from the word "Yagba" in the 19th century during the slave trade era.

We understand that Itsekiri was left out in the formation of the Yoruba identity. B[b]ut considering them a sub-group or dialect is what I don't agree with.[/b]

You are not right.
Also, on the degree of dialectal differences in Yoruba, this excerpt further confirms it... And that is why the so called "general" Yoruba was able to spread so rapidly across the entire breadth of Yorubaland.
Carving out independent niches for our groups is 'sexy' and all that, but abeg let us try to be realistic while at it.

TAO11:
Not only is your attribution to Akin Ogundiran a misrepresentation; your reply also has no bearing on the comment you quoted

The bolded is as false as it could get.

His actual words (which refutes your false attribution to him above) are as follows — word-for-word:

“By the turn of the sixteenth century [i.e. 1500s], if not much earlier, the ethnonym Yorùbá, a name that was adapted from Yàgbà, had gained currency across the Western and Central Sudan.”

Reference: Akin Ogundiran, “The Yoruba: A New History,” Indiana University Press (2020), page 247.

Some of your insinuation here have been refuted above??

Also, let the Itsekiri speak for themselves. And in so far as I know, they consider themselves to be in a way a Yorùbá group of people.

•

Madam Tao, rest small.

According to you, talking about the Yoruba ethnogenesis which the previous speaker mentioned is a misinterpretation just because I missed the period? I read the book cover for cover and don't keep dates in my head. So yeah, I could be wrong with the 19th century, but it's common knowledge in Okunland that the Nupe raids hit the most in the 1800s. Check the attached.

Btw, Itsekiri don't consider themselves Yoruba. Stop forcing the term subgroup on them and let them speak for themselves too. Take your advice. That's the point of this thread.

scholes0:


You are not right.
Also, on the degree of dialectal differences in Yoruba, this excerpt further confirms it... And that is why the so called "general" Yoruba was able to spread so rapidly across the entire breadth of Yorubaland.
Carving out independent niches for our groups is 'sexy' and all that, but abeg let us try to be realistic while at it.

While we agree that Itsekiri being related to the Oyo Yoruba, why do you consider it a subgroup of a language far up North than others in the same SE language stock? We know why. The spread you talk about started with the Oyo/Ibadan military expansionism.

Personally and to many, the use of the term dialect to refer to Itsekiri is in many ways derogatory. Itsekiri, according to most, broke out earlier from the Proto-Yoruba-Iteskiri group just like the Igalas did earlier. Why force the subgroup term on them? I'm curious

Probz:


Agree or disagree, it doesn’t really matter objectively. Itsekiri is to Yoruba what the periphery of Enuani or Owere is to Igbo linguistically. There’s more than enough cultural divergence between Itsekiri and Yoruba for me not to consider Itsekiri people Yoruba (and to be honest I don’t; they’re more like Deltans) but they speak a dialect (a sweet one, no less), not a language.

You don't seem to get the point. Can we go the other way round?

Probz:


Agree or disagree, it doesn’t really matter objectively. Yoruba is to Itsekiri what the periphery of Igbo is to Enuani or Owere linguistically. There’s more than enough cultural divergence between Itsekiri and Yoruba for me not to consider Itsekiri people Yoruba (and to be honest I don’t; they’re more like Deltans) but they speak a dialect (a sweet one, no less), not a language.

LightOnScams:


You don't seem to get the point. Can we go the other way round?

The emboldened were nuclear dialects I listed that belong to geographical relative peripheries so you’re proving my point. Unless you want to tell me that what they speak in Ngor-Okpala, Nkwerre and Issele-Uk(w)u isn’t Igbo proper. It is and it’s pure. Cultural affinity [which may or may not differ somewhat in the Deltan/Issele-Uk(w)u cohort] is something different but linguistically they are what they are. I’m not one of the people who extend the same token of pan-Igbotic-ness to Kwale/Ukwuani | Agbor/Ika [Bendel I(g)bo] people by-default, by the way. I feel like there’s a difference between Bendel/Kwale/Ika “Ibos” and real Delta-Igbos (Enuani - Ogwashi/Issele-Ukwu/Ahaba/etc.) and that the former have enough leverage (both linguistic and, importantly, cultural) to identify as more-or-less non-Igbos, Ika can only pass for anything like nuclear Igbo on a good day when it’s spoken by an Eastern-leaning speaker who doesn’t vibe with Bini/Edo culture and intonation as much (I know people like that in the U.K. who are fully rooted and affiliated in and with the nuclear pan-Igbo communal identity publicly/with general Igbos at-least) and it just … yeah. It’s definitely not by force to regard Igbanke people as Igbo-Igbos and Igala people have their own thing going on (they’re more like linguistic second cousins to the Yoruba than sisters) but Itsekiri is actually a straight-up dialect of Yoruba. I’m not sure what there is to gain on any side by denying that fundamental fact.

Probz:


The emboldened were nuclear dialects I listed that belong to geographical peripheries so you’re proving my point. Unless you want to tell me that what they speak in Ngor-Okpala, Nkwerre and Issele-Uk(w)u isn’t Igbo proper. It is.

I have no familiarity with those areas neither do I speak the Igbo proper. All what we're saying is simple, you don't force the subgroup or dialect (which is offensive) identity on a people when they don't consider themselves one. It's even more offensive if they evolved independently like the Itsekiri and Igala have done.

Probz:


The emboldened were nuclear dialects I listed that belong to geographical peripheries so you’re proving my point. Unless you want to tell me that what they speak in Ngor-Okpala, Nkwerre and Issele-Uk(w)u isn’t Igbo proper. It is and it’s pure. Cultural affinity [which may or may not differ somewhat in the Deltan/Issele-Uk(w)u cohort] is something different but linguistically they are what they are. I’m not one of the people who extend the same token of pan-Igbotic-ness to Kwale/Ukwuani | Agbor/Ika [Bendel I(g)bo] people by-default, by the way. I feel like they have enough leverage (both linguistic and, importantly, cultural) to identify as more-or-less non-Igbos, Ika can only pass for anything like nuclear Igbo on a good day when it’s spoken by an Eastern-leaning speaker who doesn’t vibe with Bini/Edo culture and intonation as much (I know people like that in the U.K. who are fully rooted and affiliated in and with the nuclear pan-Igbo communal identity publicly/with general Igbos at-least) and it just … yeah. It’s not by force to regard Igbanke people as Igbo-Igbos and Igala people have their own thing going on (they’re more like linguistic cousins to the Yoruba than sisters) but[b] Itsekiri is actually a straight-up dialect of Yoruba. I’m not sure what there is to gain on any side by denying that fundamental fact[/b].

Why are you insisting on making Itsekiri a dialect of a newer member (Oyo) of the Yoruboid group? That's something I don't understand.

LightOnScams:


Why are you insisting on making Itsekiri a dialect of a newer member (Oyo) of the Yoruboid group? That's something I don't understand.

Listen, I totally get that Itsekiri is culturally distinct from Yoruba (they’re closer to Urhobo than anyone-else in that regard) and for that reason I’d never even think about calling my Itsekiri friends Yoruba. Itsekiri to me is beautifully-unique but as a lect it’s also a dialect of Yoruba and that can’t be negated earnestly. The term “Yoruba” is a comparatively new-ish term, I definitely know that, but it includes subgroups who speak more distinct and complicated/“weird” dialects/broad lects like Ijebu, Ekiti and Okun. Itsekiri by the same token/technical convention falls under Yoruba as a language and that’s just how it is. No-one’s denying that they’re culturally distinct.

Probz:


Listen, I totally get that Itsekiri is culturally distinct from Yoruba (they’re closer to Urhobo than anyone-else in that regard) and for that reason I’d never even think about calling my Itsekiri friends Yoruba. Itsekiri to me is beautifully-unique but as a lect it’s also a dialect of Yoruba and that can’t be negated earnestly. The term “Yoruba” is a comparatively new-ish term, I definitely know that, but it includes subgroups who speak more distinct and complicated/“weird” dialects/broad lects like Ijebu, Ekiti and Okun. Itsekiri by the same token/technical convention falls under Yoruba as a language and that’s just how it is. No-one’s denying that they’re culturally distinct.

I do get your point, but my post wasn't about the cultural aspect. The use of the term "dialect" in African languages seems to be flawed. The whites started it. That's my argument on Itsekiri alongside its evolution in isolation.

Can you compare the supposed English dialects with Ijebu/Ekiti to Yoruba? Except you've never heard an Ekiti man speak before.

When the term "Yoruba" is used in my writings, I'm referring to the Oyo Yoruba itself.

LightOnScams:

While we agree that Itsekiri being related to the Oyo Yoruba, why do you consider it a subgroup of a language far up North than others in the same SE language stock? We know why. The spread you talk about started with the Oyo/Ibadan military expansionism.

I don't get it.. No one is saying Itsekiri is a subgroup of Oyo... so what do you mean by 'subgroup of a language far up North'? Both Itsekiri and its SE Yoruba brethren are daughter dialects of the Yoruba lects. Also, unlike you, I am not using Yoruba interchangeably with Oyo. If the need be for me to reference Oyo specifically, I will call them out by name.

LightOnScams:
Personally and to many, the use of the term dialect to refer to Itsekiri is in many ways derogatory. Itsekiri, according to most[b], broke out earlier from the Proto-Yoruba-Iteskiri group just like the Igalas did earlier[/b]. Why force the subgroup term on them? I'm curious

Itsekiri didn't break out of Proto Yoruba. Itsekiri actually broke out of South Eastern Yoruba and migrated into the insular creeks. If itsekiri broke out of Proto Yoruboid, it would be closer to Igala than it is to Ikale, but it isn't. A Yoruba and an Itsekiri can both be called Olushola, but an Igala can't.
To your last point, well, I don't think the Yoruba identity is being forced on them, but believe you mean when I tell you that I have seen some Itsekiris who identify as the Yorubas of the Niger Delta.

scholes0:


I don't get it.. No one is saying Itsekiri is a subgroup of Oyo... so what do you mean by 'subgroup of a language far up North'? Both Itsekiri and its SE Yoruba brethren are daughter dialects of the Yoruba lects. Also, unlike you, I am not using Yoruba interchangeably with Oyo. If the need be for me to reference Oyo specifically, I will call them out by name.



Itsekiri didn't break out of Proto Yoruba. Itsekiri actually broke out of South Eastern Yoruba and migrated into the insular creeks. If itsekiri broke out of Proto Yoruboid, it would be closer to Igala than it is to Ikale, but it isn't. A Yoruba and an Itsekiri can both be called Olushola, but an Igala can't.
To your last point, well, I don't think the Yoruba identity is being forced on them, but believe you mean when I tell you that I have seen some Itsekiris who identify as the Yorubas of the Niger Delta.

Well, when someone mentions the Yoruba language, your mind doesn't go to Ijebu, does it?

There's a difference between Proto-Yoruba, Proto-Yoruba-Itsekiri and Proto-Yoruba-Itsekiri-Igala.
Here's a node tree of the breakoff showing Itsekiri taking a different path of evolution, I'd appreciate any source from you saying otherwise.

LightOnScams:


Well, when someone mentions the Yoruba language, your mind doesn't go to Ijebu, does it?

My mind goes to the collective actually, not just any one group. I don't think of yoruba in my head and be like ''My own group in Ondo state are not part of those Yoruba people".
In your own case however, I also understand that there are geopolitical idiosyncrasies.

LightOnScams:
There's a difference between Proto-Yoruba, Proto-Yoruba-Itsekiri and Proto-Yoruba-Itsekiri-Igala.
Here's a node tree of the breakoff showing Itsekiri taking a different path of evolution, I'd appreciate any source from you saying otherwise.

This particular schematic diagram you posted is just one of several models out there, and even from this one sef, you can see that Both Itsekiri and SEY have the direct same root. The research wasn't even sure how to characterize the association of SE Yoruba, notice the use of the dashed lines... And the reason why he was faced with that conundrum is because he thinks Itsekiri is an independent branch. With that pre notion already in mind, something as clear as the place of SEY with the rest of her Yoruba co-branches like NEY, CY, SWY suddenly became confusing and unclear.

It just is not possible for Itsekiri to 'ghost jump' over hundreds of kilometres from the urheimat of the Yoruba peoples around the Niger-Benue confluence area and suddenly land in the creeks of the southwestern Niger delta without leaving path traces. It only follows perfect logic that they descended from the south eastern Yoruba stock that were flowing south eastwards... Infact, this can be perfectly seen in the kinship ties that continues to exist between Southestern Yoruba groups like the Ilaje and Ijebu with Itsekiris till date. Itsekiri is SEY.

Pattern of development actually looks something more like the attached diagram.
The SE Yoruba are all a single original stock. This is also the position of prof Ogundiran whom you quoted earlier

LightOnScams:


I do get your point, but my post wasn't about the cultural aspect. The use of the term "dialect" in African languages seems to be flawed. The whites started it. That's my argument on Itsekiri alongside its evolution in isolation.

Can you compare the supposed English dialects with Ijebu/Ekiti to Yoruba? Except you've never heard an Ekiti man speak before.

When the term "Yoruba" is used in my writings, I'm referring to the Oyo Yoruba itself.

I see what you mean but English is known for having many, many distinct lects. The way someone from the Black Country (Birmingham-ish) speaks isn’t the way a Toxteth or Dingle Scouser (Liverpool) speaks, nor is that like New York English or Cockney. And none of it’s like the Queen’s (the latest prince to be king over at the Buckingham monarchy will never be relevant or interesting like that) English. But they’re all shades of the same language.

LightOn, what you’re saying is tantamount to saying that anyone who’s not from the Nri-Awka-Okigwe-Onitsha area (which is a broad axis but those places are either prototypal ancestrally or used as central/unifying dialects) doesn’t have a chance in hell of speaking Igbo by way of indigenous lect or that one has to live in Buckingham Palace before you’re kicked out for trespassing and getting annoyed with Lady Hussey for asking too many culturally-personal questions before you’re regarded as speaking true bona-fide English. But that ain’t it and you know it.

LightOnScams:

Yoruba, like we all know, is a recent ethnic term. According to Akin Ogundiran (2021), the term "Yoruba" evolved from the word "Yagba" in the 19th century during the slave trade era.

We understand that Itsekiri was left out in the formation of the Yoruba identity. But considering them a sub-group or dialect is what I don't agree with.

Yagba in 19th century? No that's not true.

BanyXchi:
Yagba in 19th century? No that's not true.

What's not true?

LightOnScams:
Madam Tao, rest small.

According to you, talking about the Yoruba ethnogenesis which the previous speaker mentioned is a misinterpretation just because I missed the period? I read the book cover for cover and don't keep dates in my head. So yeah, I could be wrong with the 19th century, but it's common knowledge in Okunland that the Nupe raids hit the most in the 1800s. Check the attached.

What’s all these manipulation about?

You said the ethnic term “Yoruba” evolved from the name “Yagba” ”in the 19th century” — i.e. ~the 1800s.

You didn’t stop at simply making this claim, you went on to attribute it to “Akin Ogundiran”.

Now you’re corrected (yes quite assertively), and you want to make it look as though the “date” is a minor error which is even secondary to your point.

No it wasn’t an error. Neither was it secondary to the point you were making. It was intentional.

In fact, it was at the center of that comment of yours.
That is the very point you were making.

You opened with: “Yoruba as we all know is a recent ethnic term”

You then followed that up with your “19th century” remark. How more intentional could it get?

Well, may be it’s all in my head cos come to think of it: 19th century (on one hand) & at least 16th century (on the other) is ONLY 300+ years off — just 300+.
———

As per your allusion to Nupe raids of the area in the 19th century (to which your screenshot relates); that has nothing to do with my correction of your error.

Of course we know that the Nupe brigandage was rife in the 15th, 16th & 19th centuries; however, we also know that Akin Ogundiran identified the first two (i.e. “sixteenth century, if not much earlier”) as the period when the name emerged.

The period when the name emerged is the very crux of that comment you made. And that’s the very thing I corrected in the comment, not whether or not Nupe raided in the 19th century too.

Btw, Itsekiri don't consider themselves Yoruba. Stop forcing the term subgroup on them and let them speak for themselves too. Take your advice. That's the point of this thread.

No, I am not forcing anything on them.

Rather, I am saying that not only on the basis of the linguistic evidence, but also from the testimonies of prominent Itsekiri elders & chiefs such as: Chief Isaac Jemide, the Oshodin of Warri Kingdom; Chief Robinson Ariyo, the Egogo of Warri Kingdom, et al.

•
Cc. BanyXchi

BanyXchi:
Yagba in 19th century? No that's not true.

What are you saying? They even took the name to Jamaica and Guyanna as slaves . They were also ranked among the lowest .

LightOnScams:

Interesting video sir .
These are literally Britons.

Even, it only makes sense to imagine them in the British section of Walmart picking up onion-gravy granules, PG Tips and McCoys (not that they’ve been selling them anywhere in bulk since t’year 2000-ish, sadly).

LightOnScams:

What are you saying? They even took the name to Jamaica and Guyanna as slaves . They were also ranked among the lowest .

you sound like a troll that comes from a cursed hateful inconsequential tribe.... Yoruba never came from the word yagba, infact it's very stupid to think so... And all the accounts of Yorubas in the new world was about how they are superior to other Negros. What tribe are you from?

BanyXchi:
you sound like a troll that comes from a cursed hateful inconsequential tribe.... Yoruba never came from the word yagba, infact it's very stupid to think so... And all the accounts of Yorubas in the new world was about how they are superior to other Negros. What tribe are you from?

Okay.