Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? - Religion - Nairaland
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| Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by jerrymania(m): 10:36pm On Aug 30, 2007 |
David and Jonathan Passages in 1 Samuel & 2 Samuel describe, among other events, a extremely close bond between David and Jonathan. Jonathan was the son of King Saul, and next in line for the throne. But Samuel anointed David to be the next king. This produced a strong conflict in the mind of Saul. Interpretation: Religious conservatives generally view the friendship of David and Jonathan as totally non-sexual. They find it inconceivable that God would allow a famous king of Israel to be a homosexual. Some religious liberals believe that David and Jonathan had a consensual homosexual relationship - in many ways, a prototype of many of today's gay partnerships. 7 Some important verses which describe their relationship are: 1 Samuel 18:1 ", Jonathan became one in spirit with David and he loved him as himself." (NIV) ", the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul" (KJV) Most translations use the term "soul" rather than "spirit" to describe the bond. They speak of an "immediate bond of love", their souls being "in unison," their souls being "knit", etc. Genesis 2:7, as written in the original Hebrew, describes how God blew the spirit into the body of Adam that God had formed from earth, so that Adam became a living soul. This means that "soul", in the ancient Israelite times, represents a combination of body and spirit. Thus the two men appear to have loved each other both physically and emotionally. 1 Samuel 18:2 "From that day, Saul kept David with him and did not let him return to his father's house." (NIV) David left his parent's home and moved to Saul's where he would be with Jonathan. This is a strong indication that the relationship was extremely close. It echoes the passage marriage passage in Genesis 2:24: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." 1 Samuel 18:3-4 "And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt." (NIV) Since people in those days did not wear underwear, Jonathan stripped himself naked in front of David. That would be considered extremely unusual behavior (then and now) unless their relationship was physical. 1 Samuel 18:20-21 "Now Saul's daughter Michal was in love with David, and when they told Saul about it, he was pleased. 'I will give her to him', he thought, 'so that she may be a snare to him and so that the hand of the Philistines may be against him'. Now you have a second opportunity to become my son-in-law" (NIV) In the King James Version, the end of Verse 21 reads: "Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the one of the twain." (KJV) Saul's belief was that David would be so distracted by a wife that he would not be an effective fighter and would be killed by the Philistines. He offered first his daughter Merab, but that was rejected, presumably by her. Then he offered Michal. There is an interesting phrase used at the end of verse 21. In both the NIV and KJV, it would seem that David's first opportunity to be a son-in-law was with the older daughter Merab, and his second was with the younger daughter Michal. The KJV preserves the original text in its clearest form; it implies that David would become Saul's son-in-law through "one of the twain." "Twain" means "two", so the verse seems to refer to one of Saul's two daughters. Unfortunately, this is a mistranslation. The underlined phrase "the one of" does not exist in the Hebrew original. The words are shown in italics in the King James Version; this is an admission by the translators that they made the words up. Thus, if the KJV translators had been truly honest, they would have written: "Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the twain." In modern English, this might be written: "Today, you are son-in-law with two of my children" That would refer to both his son Jonathan and his daughter Michal. The Hebrew original would appear to recognize David and Jonathan's homosexual relationship as equivalent to David and Michal's heterosexual marriage. Saul may have approved or disapproved of the same-sex relationship; but at least he appears to have recognized it. The KJV highlight their re-writing of the Hebrew original by placing the three words in italics; the NIV translation is clearly deceptive. 1 Samuel 20:41 "After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side of the stone and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with is face to the ground. Then they kissed each other and wept together - but David wept the most." (NIV) Other translations have a different ending to the verse: ", and they kissed one another and wept with one another, until David exceeded." (KJV) ", and they kissed one another and wept with one another until David got control of himself." (Amplified Bible) "and they sadly shook hands, tears running down their cheeks until David could weep no more." (Living Bible) "They kissed each other and wept together until David got control of himself." (Modern Language) "They kissed each other and wept aloud together." (New American Bible) "Then David and Jonathan kissed each other. They cried together, but David cried the most." (New Century Version) "Then they kissed one another and shed tears together, until David's grief was even greater than Jonathan's." (Revised English Bible) ", and they kissed one another and wept with one another until David recovered himself." (Revised Standard Version) The translators of the Living Bible apparently could not handle the thought of two adult men kissing, so they mistranslated the passage by saying that the two men shook hands! This is somewhat less than honest. The original Hebrew text says that they kissed each other and wept together until David became great. The word which means "great" in this passage is "gadal" in the original Hebrew. The same word is used elsewhere in the Hebrew Scriptures to refer to King Solomon being greater than all other kings. Some theologians interpret "gadal" in this verse as indicating that David had an erection. However, the thoughts of David becoming sexually aroused after kissing Jonathan may have been too threatening for Bible translators. They either deleted the ending entirely or created one of their own. 2 Samuel 1:26 "I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women." In the society of ancient Israel, it was not considered proper for a man and woman to have a platonic relationship. Men and women rarely spoke to each other in public. Since David's only relationships with women would have been sexual in nature, then he must be referring to sexual love here. It would not make sense in this verse to compare platonic love for a man with sexual love for a woman; they are two completely different phenomena. It would appear that David is referring to his sexual love for Jonathan. Culled from http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bmar.htm 1 Like |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by jerrymania(m): 7:56am On Aug 31, 2007 |
No comment? |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by toshmann(m): 11:10am On Aug 31, 2007 |
[size=14pt]silence is the best answer for a . . . . . . .[/size] |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by jerrymania(m): 12:02pm On Aug 31, 2007 |
@ toshmann yep at you coz ignorance is only for the dogs. |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Backslider(m): 1:28pm On Aug 31, 2007 |
Isaiah 5:18 Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope: |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by cgift(m): 3:17pm On Aug 31, 2007 |
this thread wont sell. No be curse. Your argumnts are very much nonsensical. So you have not seen friends like that in today's world, so close but no gays? |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by damoche07(m): 3:57pm On Aug 31, 2007 |
The children of the devil are really getting braver,wiser and more innovative as the end of the world nears. I am not surprised at this.Its a reflection of the dangerous times we are in. May God have mercy on him. God have mercy on me too. |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Dios(f): 5:59pm On Sep 01, 2007 |
 Lol, what he wrote might be prove of faggotry between the two or it could have been honest man love with no homosexual behaviour. Who knows, who cares. Lol@ living bible trying to change kissed to shook hands. Maybe they just kissed each other on the cheeks like arabs do, or it might have been some FLAMING HOMO SH#T |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Horus(m): 7:48pm On Sep 01, 2007 |
If you Christian preachers claim that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their homosexual acts, then why are there still homosexuals still alive today, or did God fail to kill them? Why did he let these people become homosexuals in the first place, if he hated it so much? Then if you go to 1Samuel 20:17, Jonathan "causes David to swear again, because he loved (ahabaw) him: For he loved (awhab) him as he loved (ahabaw) his own soul (nefesh)." Two Aramic (Hebrew) words are used in the above quote for love. One is ahabaw meaning "of man toward man, of man toward himself, between man and woman, sexual desire," and the other is awhab meaning "to love, human love for another; includes family, and sexual, lover. David and Jonathan were lovers. In simple words they were homosexuals. David kisses Saul in 1Samuel 20:41, and it says ". . . and they kissed (nawshaq) one another , and wept one with another, until David exceeded." The Aramic word for kiss in the above quote is nawshaq meaning "to put together, kiss, touch gently, handle." Hence according to the quotes above David and Jonathan, the son of Saul, were homosexuals who loved each other, like a husband loves his wife. This story is found right in your bible after the destruction of the cities of Sodom and Gomomorah, which you (Christians) teach was destroyed because of homosexuality. Can you explain this to us Reverend, because our souls are searching for the truth? Christians claim that the bible states in Leviticus 18:22 "thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination," so according to them, these homosexuals are going against the laws of the bible. The Muslim, because of this mis-information, made the name "Lot" or "Lut" mean "homosexual." It shows that their Koran is not dealing in spiritual, but man made. "No preacher belongs in your bedroom, he belongs behind the pulpit saving your soul." |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by folaski: 12:28pm On Apr 07, 2009 |
THEIR RELATIONSHIP CAN NEVER BE CATEGORIZED AS HOMO., THE BOTH GOT MARRIED TO WOMEN. DAVID HAD MANY CHILDREN. JONATHAN HAD A CRIPPLED SON NAME MEPHIBOSHET DO YOU REALLY CARE TO KNOW WHAT THE BIBLE ACTUALLY SAY ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY THEN CHECK THE LINK BELOW http://homosexualdebate./ |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Ogaga4Luv(m): 6:57pm On May 22, 2009 |
[size=13pt]They both are pure HOMOSEXUAL  "David_Jonathan" [/size] |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by otokx(m): 7:01pm On May 22, 2009 |
some people are criminally minded. |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Ogaga4Luv(m): 7:10pm On May 22, 2009 |
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| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by duduspace(m): 12:43am On May 23, 2009 |
folaski: They could still have been bisexual, some folks don't care what hole they insert their peepee into you know? there could have been some serious back door action . By the way, I know David got married but is there record of Jonathan getting married? guy seemed like a wimp and could well have been the one providing the back door. Don't hold me to this though, it is pure speculation.(Disclaimer) |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Tudor3(m): 5:14am On May 23, 2009 |
Whats with some of the replies calling the poster devil? David and jonathan might have been homosexual,who knows. . . . .it's not like they were tearing each other's arse in front of the tribes of isreal,they probably fagged in secret. And to think david was the ancestor of jesus raises intriguing questions. . . . |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by smile4kenn(m): 5:23am On May 23, 2009 |
dont be decieved Arabs men today kiss themselves--- yet they not homo |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Ogaga4Luv(m): 8:05am On May 23, 2009 |
[size=13pt] Undecided[/size] |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by PastorAIO: 10:01am On May 23, 2009 |
smile4kenn: Who has heard of the Sotadic Zone. Burton became sure of the existence of one after spending many years amongst the Arabs in the middle east. The existence of a Sotadic zone was a hypothesis of Richard Francis Burton; it asserted that there existed a geographic zone in which pederasty was particularly prevalent and tolerated, and claimed that within this zone a homosexual orientation was much more common than outside it. This postulation is now widely recognized as stemming from an orientalist point of view. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sotadic_zone |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Nobody: 10:39am On May 23, 2009 |
And you're implying what? If Burton became sure of the existence of a sotadic zone in a paticular area, does that mean that area was actually one? Sotadic zone or whatever, Islam prohibits homosexuality. I am not sure what you intended to acheive with that post. Please focus on the thread. Was the love between David and Jonathan homosexual? |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by PastorAIO: 11:06am On May 23, 2009 |
fellis: I just put it out there as something interesting. It is just one man's idea and I don't think it can be proved either way. What I don't get is why the thought is biting you so much. Is there something you have yet to come to terms with? As for the Islamic prohibition of homosexuality, have you realised that when something is articulated as law in a country it is usually a reaction to a practice. The more stringent the law the more prevalent the practice. The more prevalent a practice the stronger the measures taken against them are. You don't get a decree 419 in a country where the citizens are honest. The sheer existence of such a draconian decree is enough to tell you that nigerians must be very dubious people. . . . What is that you were saying about Islam's prohibition of Homosexuality? |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Nobody: 12:40pm On May 23, 2009 |
Why do you insist on being offensive? Why did you choose to say that the thought is 'biting me'? When new laws are created, it is not necessarily because there is a prevalence of whatever is being prohibited, a law can be brought about in order to PREVENT and not in order to stop a great prevalence of wrongdoing. And you know this. Again, I peacefully ask you to stop diverting the thread. Was the love between Jonathan and David homosexual? |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Tudor3(m): 1:55pm On May 23, 2009 |
Fellis,fellis,fellisssss give us a damn break,will you? We can't know for sure if dave and jo were gays. . . . .we weren't there for gods sake! |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Nobody: 2:22pm On May 23, 2009 |
What do you mean by 'us'? Did I adress the post to you? |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Agbalanze(m): 3:07pm On May 23, 2009 |
Father, forgive them cos they dont know what they are doing, |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Tudor3(m): 4:01pm On May 23, 2009 |
@fellis i didnt see no quote,neither did i see you address your post to anyone. So i naturally assumed it was an open question.shikena |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Tudor3(m): 4:03pm On May 23, 2009 |
@agbalanze what are you? Jesus christ? |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Ogaga4Luv(m): 3:08am On May 24, 2009 |
[size=13pt]Shut up your damm! Smelling mouth!! ,by the way who are you??OshietzÖ_gietzo[/size] Agbalanze: |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Krayola(m): 9:07am On May 24, 2009 |
In my opinion homosexuality is not "wrong, immoral, evil", or whatever you want to call it. What it is is abnormal, a misuse of body parts. All these "holy" books being quoted were written by humans. God does not intervene in human history in my opinion. The idea that a loving God of all humanity ignores all the starving children in the world and then answers you when you pray for a new job makes little to no sense to me. If you got the job it is probably because you were qualified, connected, or just lucky. We know there is something out there we don't understand. We need to search for the truth with an open mind and humility, instead of quoting books that we know little to nothing of their origin as the final authority on everything. |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Nobody: 5:26pm On May 25, 2009 |
Did someone notice that whenever people on Nairaland play the ahabaw, awhab and nefesh cards, they usually select the meanings that satisfy their arguments and abandon the rest? |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Ogaga4Luv(m): 9:57am On May 26, 2009 |
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| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by NoFearNYC(m): 1:01am On May 27, 2009 |
Interesting question - I guess we'll never really know, seeing as they are both dead. Sounds like there was some serious man love going on though. Wouldn't be so strange, there have always been gay men, so why not David & Jonathan with all that kissing and exceeding? Why do people get so worked up about stuff like this? This NL forum is a trip I have one thing to say: YOU BETTER WORK! |
| Re: Was the Love between King David and Jonathan Homosexual? by Ogaga4Luv(m): 6:00pm On Jan 23, 2011 |
NoFearNYC: |
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