OkCornel:
■ Is it their conscience that saves them? Or their works. Hmmm?

1. The standard by which one's work is judged is what can save one, not one's works. In Jesus Christ, we are saved, not by our works but by doing works in compliance with the standard that is Jesus Christ aka Jesus Christ saves.

All the works I do according to the standard that is the world cannot save me because the world's standard can't offer me salvation of the kind I desire, for instance.

Kobojunkie:
1. The standard by one's work is judged is what can save one, not one's works. In Jesus Christ, we are saved, not by our works but by doing works in compliance with the standard that is Jesus Christ aka Jesus Christ saves.

Artful dodger. You mentioned I said “salvation by conscience” which is untrue.

Can you kindly answer my question directly

Are the people whom Paul referred to in Romans 2 v 13-16 judged by their conscience or by their works?

Direct answer please. Which one is it?

I don’t want plenty explanation.

Kobojunkie:
1. The standard by one's work is judged is what can save one, not one's works. In Jesus Christ, we are saved, not by our works but by doing works in compliance with the standard that is Jesus Christ aka Jesus Christ saves.

contradictory statements. Are you trying to dismantle your opponent by using ambiguous statements?

Since according to Jesus in the parable of talents, virgins and lamps, and so on, that reward given is based on works, then "works" cannot be used as an unquantifiable term in this context and most, therefore, be subject to not just valuation of standard but also of quantity.

Here's a better representation of the idea: The standard of work is the first metric that will be judged, and qualify you to be saved before the amount of work, which is the second metric, is examined. But, the standard isn't work in itself, but the acknowledgment or more appropriately, the framework for it.

Now, Since each of us will be judged based on "work," then the work that, say, kobo does can be distinguished from that of kkins. Consequently, I can say "my work is in compliance with the standards of Christ" and this[b] measure of work[/b] has been done. So, even in compliance with standards, there can be no work done. If no work is done; then it is no different from the case of the man in the parable of talents, who, instead of putting his work to use, decided to bury it.

As we see, in the argument posed by James the just, to paraphrase, "work without faith is useless and vice versa." Hence, to say we are "saved by our works" is correct since our works are believed to already operate in the framework of Christ.

kkins25:
■ Here's a better representation of the idea: The standard of work is the first metric that will be judged, and qualify you to be saved before the amount of work, which is the second metric, is examined. But, the standard isn't work in itself, but the acknowledgment or more appropriately, the framework for it.
■ Now, Since each of us will be judged based on "work," then the work that, say, kobo does can be distinguished from that of kkins. Consequently, I can say "my work is in compliance with the standards of Christ" and this[b] measure of work has been done. So, even in compliance with standards, there can be no work done.[/b] If no work is done; then it is no different from the case of the man in the parable of talents, who, instead of putting his work to use, decided to bury it.
■ As we see, in the argument posed by James the just, to paraphrase, "work without faith is useless and vice versa." Hence, to say we are "saved by our works" is correct since our works are believed to already operate in the framework of Christ.

Oh Parables!

1. So, what you are insinuating then is that when Jesus Christ revealed in the Parable of the Field Workers that all will receive the same reward irrespective of the amount of work done in Matthew 20 vs 1 - 16, Jesus Christ was mistaken?

2. So, what you are insinuating then is when Jesus Christ pointed out that everyone will be judged on the same 6 keys of righteousness in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46, Jesus Christ was wrong?

3. Faith, in scripture, simply means continuous submission and obedience to the teachings and commandments of God, in our case, Jesus Christ. And those who obey God in fact do works, so faith cannot exist without works is what James was trying to point out in that letter of his. It is not the works that save one but the obedience/compliance to the standard that is Jesus Christ.

Recall that Jesus Christ, in His sermons, explained that many will come on that day saying they did works using His name and He would disavow such folks saying He knew them not, why?

22 On that last Day many will call me Lord. They will say, ‘Lord, Lord, by the power of your name we spoke for God. And by your name we forced out demons and did many miracles.’
23 Then I will tell those people clearly, ‘Get away from me, you people who do wrong. I never knew you.’ - Matthew 7 vs 22 -23

They have works to present and according to you works is what saves, right? Wrongs! Works aren't what saves us but obedience to the Law and standard that is Jesus Christ. The standard, God's Law, is what matters and gives value to works done.

OkCornel:
■ Artful dodger. You mentioned I said “salvation by conscience” which is untrue. Can you kindly answer my question directly Are the people whom Paul referred to in Romans 2 v 13-16 judged by their conscience or by their works?
Direct answer please. Which one is it?
I don’t want plenty explanation.

According to Paul, their works are judged by the standard that is Jesus Christ — salvation by the Law. But your claim is that Paul instead means that their works are judged by the standard that is their conscience — they are saved by way of their conscience. You keep dodging yet accusing me of exactly what you are doing. why?

I even included a comment of yours from a previous thread that clearly reveals that you in fact did state paul meant that those who die without Jesus Christ will have their works judged according to their conscience, again salvation as a result of works done in compliance with their conscience. Why do you think attacking me is how to go about making your point at this time?

Kobojunkie:
According to Paul, their works are judged by the standard that is Jesus Christ — salvation by the Law. But your claim is that Paul instead means that their works are judged by the standard that is their conscience — they are saved by way of their conscience. You keep dodging yet accusing me of exactly what you are doing. why?

I even included a comment of yours from a previous thread that clearly reveals that you in fact did state paul meant that those who die without Jesus Christ will have their works judged according to their conscience, again salvation as a result of works done in compliance with their conscience. Why do you think attacking me is how to go about making your point at this time?

Can you point to where I mentioned the standard by which these people's work would be judged is their conscience?

It's really clear your understanding of English is the problem

I'm patiently waiting.

kkins25:

contradictory statements. Are you trying to dismantle your opponent by using ambiguous statements?

Since according to Jesus in the parable of talents, virgins and lamps, and so on, that reward given is based on works, then "works" cannot be used as an unquantifiable term in this context and most, therefore, be subject to not just valuation of standard but also of quantity.

Here's a better representation of the idea: The standard of work is the first metric that will be judged, and qualify you to be saved before the amount of work, which is the second metric, is examined. But, the standard isn't work in itself, but the acknowledgment or more appropriately, the framework for it.

Now, Since each of us will be judged based on "work," then the work that, say, kobo does can be distinguished from that of kkins. Consequently, I can say "my work is in compliance with the standards of Christ" and this[b] measure of work[/b] has been done. So, even in compliance with standards, there can be no work done. If no work is done; then it is no different from the case of the man in the parable of talents, who, instead of putting his work to use, decided to bury it.

As we see, in the argument posed by James the just, to paraphrase, "work without faith is useless and vice versa." Hence, to say we are "saved by our works" is correct since our works are believed to already operate in the framework of Christ.

1 billion likes for this, you know exactly what Kobojunkie is fond of doing to fuel his addiction on pointless time wasting arguments.

PhD holder in ambiguous statements.

OkCornel:
■ 1 billion likes for this, you know exactly what Kobojunkie is fond of doing to fuel his addiction on pointless time wasting arguments.

PhD holder in ambiguous statements.

1. We are not saved by works. How is that ambiguous?

Recall Jesus Christ is the Way, The Truth and the Eternal Life(Grace) according to John 14 vs 6. Both Salvations offered us by Jesus Christ do not purport to be by works.
■ The first salvation offered us by Jesus Christ at the point when one enters into the Kingdom of God, Salvation by grace(Eternal Life) - John 3 vs 16 -, is not by works.
■So also the second Salvation which is obtained only by those who stand faithful under the end, Salvation by Truth - Matthew 24 vs 12 - 13, Matthew 10 vs 22 & Mark 13 vs 13-, is also not by works.

So, how can you find this to be ambiguous as one who claims to belong to Jesus Christ? By the way, didn't your favorite pal, Paul, also indicate somewhere in one of his letters that you are not saved by works?

OkCornel:
Can you point to where I mentioned the standard by which these people's work would be judged is their conscience? It's really clear your understanding of English is the problem :DI'm patiently waiting.

This is you.

OkCornel:

Nope. Conscience is a tool to determine right from wrong. Every man has this and would be judged according to their works. If they know the right thing to do, and do not do it. Too bad. If they know the wrong thing to do, and do not shun away from it. Too bad. Every man would be judged ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. Ignorance is not an excuse. That's the crux of my point.

right?

Kobojunkie:
This is you. right?

Yes.

They are aware of what is right or wrong by virtue of their conscience and intuition.

Now please tell me where exactly I said they are “saved by their conscience” as you claimed. Rather than their works.

Patiently waiting. Seems you don’t get the very basic and straightforward message I’ve been repeating all the while.

OkCornel:
■Yes.They are aware of what is right or wrong [b]by virtue of their conscience and intuition.[/b]Now please tell me where exactly I said they are “saved by their conscience” as you claimed. Rather than their works. Patiently waiting. Seems you don’t get the very basic and straightforward message I’ve been repeating all the while.

1. Meaning that the standard they adhere to is their conscience, right? The standard by which their works are to be judged .i.e their salvation is to be weighed against is their conscience, yes or no?

Kobojunkie:
1. We are not saved by works. How is that ambiguous?

Recall Jesus Christ is the Way, The Truth and the Eternal Life(Grace) according to John 14 vs 6. Both Salvations offered us by Jesus Christ do not purport to be by works.
■ The first salvation offered us by Jesus Christ at the point when one enters into the Kingdom of God, Salvation by grace(Eternal Life) - John 3 vs 16 -, is not by works.
■So also the second Salvation which is obtained only by those who stand faithful under the end, Salvation by Truth - Matthew 24 vs 12 - 13, Matthew 10 vs 22 & Mark 13 vs 13-, is also not by works.

So, how can you find this to be ambiguous as one who claims to belong to Jesus Christ? By the way, didn't your favorite pal, Paul, also indicate somewhere in one of his letters that you are not saved by works?

So how will certain partakers of the second resurrection find their names in the book of life hmmm?

Are they not SAVED from eternal damnation hmmm?

Kobojunkie:
1. Meaning that the standard they adhere to is their conscience, right? The standard by which their works are to be judged .i.e their salvation is to be weighed against is their conscience, yes or no?

Ambiguous statements as kkins25 pointed out.

Don’t put words in my mouth.

Show me where I said people are “saved by their conscience” as you claimed.

Conscience is a tool to differentiate right from wrong. If you disobey it, how are you saved? (Hope you are catching on)


Patiently waiting.

OkCornel:
■ So how will certain partakers of the second resurrection find their names in the book of life hmmm?
■ Are they not SAVED from eternal damnation hmmm?

1. Second resurrection?

2. Eternal damnation only applies as far as those who belong to the Kingdom of God — the goats in the Kingdom of God— and they all are born-agains. And according to Jesus Christ - Matthew 15 vs 24 & Matthew 10 vs 5 - 6 & Matthew 7 vs 6, they are also all Israelites, a part of the first resurrection.

OkCornel:
■ Ambiguous statements as kkins25 pointed out. Don’t put words in my mouth. Show me where I said people are “saved by their conscience” as you claimed. Patiently waiting.

1. You did not answer the questions asked.

If your works adhere to a standard that is your conscience and you present such works much like the false teachers and false prophets Jesus Christ warned are not of Him in Matthew 7 vs 22 - 23 also will, isn't it in order that you may be saved by said works?

Kobojunkie:
1. You did not answer the questions asked.

If your works adhere to a standard that is your conscience and you present such works much like the false teachers and false prophets Jesus Christ warned are not of Him in Matthew 7 vs 22 - 23 also will, isn't it in order that you may be saved by said works?

Nope you didn’t answer my question. Yet you expect me to answer yours?

Nah, doesn’t work that way.

Show me where I mentioned “salvation by conscience” which you falsely accused me of.

OkCornel:


Is it their conscience that saves them? Or their works. Hmmm?

Let it go pls

Kobojunkie:
Oh Parables!
They have works to present and according to you works is what saves, right? Wrongs! Works aren't what saves us but obedience to the Law and standard that is Jesus Christ. The standard, God's Law, is what matters and gives value to works done.

Then why was the disciple who was obedient, but didn't do any work, punished?

kkins25:

Then why was the disciple who was obedient, but didn't do any work, punished?

You dey read at all?

Kobojunkie:
You dry read at all?

Ahh, my bad. You could not make any counter arguments based on what I've put there.. D disciple i was referring to was dat from the parable of talents..

Or u want to deny? 😉😉

kkins25:
Ahh, my bad. You could not make any counter arguments based on what I've put there.. D disciple i was referring to was dat from the parable of talents..

Or u want to deny? 😉😉

counter what exactly? A question asked out of ignorance of what is clearly stated in the book? dem tell you say I come answer silly questions for you abi?

Kobojunkie:
counter what exactly? A question asked out of ignorance of what is clearly stated in the book? dem tell you say I come answer silly questions for you abi?

Ignorance of what? A metaphysical ideology? Don't make me laugh. If paul and james had differing opinions on the matter then maybe you put yourself in a caliber only you acknowledge.
Plus, I go with james on this one. The parable of talents makes it damn clear that love for your master isn't enough. U mist break your back, else, the little given to you would be stripped away and given ro someone else

If those who performed miracle and wonders, and had first hand experience with the most high, couldn't agree? Na you wey read pirated version of the stories don sabi am? Gerrahia men!!

Reading your write again, You're drowning yourself in a diarrhea of words. what does it mean to obey the laws of christ? Law of christ are majorly Two.
love God,
Love thy neighbor.

"love thy neighbor" is an action statement. Not that you sit down and feel emotions.
If you love thy neighbor and see him on the ground wounded, and do not help, isn't that against the law-"love thy neighbor" ? The failure to practise the second negates the first. but not vice versa. because, the second fulfills the first.

kkins25:
Reading your write again, You're drowning yourself in a diarrhea of words. what does it mean to obey the laws of christ? Law of christ are majorly Two.
love God,
Love thy neighbor.

"love thy neighbor" is an action statement. Not that you sit down and feel emotions.
If you love thy neighbor and see him on the ground wounded, and do not help, isn't that against the law-"love thy neighbor" ? The failure to practise the second negates the first. but not vice versa. because, the second fulfills the first.

This is great