Jerry,

I hope you have prepard your mind for the typical respons of an atheist. Thety will always try and explain scientifically the reason for th 'so-called' miracle and tell you it had nothing to do with the supernatural.

hello my name is michael martins

i am not new to nairaland but i have not been active and now i have cum to stay.

I am an atheist guys and i am proud to say so.

The issue of miracles might can have its source from anything:

*coincidence
*black magic etc

But the issue of God being the source of miracles is a lie, tell me if its really God, why do pastors and others go to black magic instead of the foucus on God.

Why are most very powerful men of God as they are called not having this same miracle power as they deserve.


Michael

realdosh:

But the issue of God being the source of miracles is a lie, tell me if its really God, why do pastors and others go to black magic instead of the foucus on God.

You hav just contradictd urself. Infact ur name should be realcontra. The topic says, , existence of miracles. If you believe that "black magic" exist and has power to do wonders, that is a miracle and your believe proofs that miracles do exist.

On another note, if by your assertion, black magic exists, then it will tak a fool to say that if there is a negative, then there cant be a positive. By inference, black magic implies asomething suppernatural. So you believe in the supernatural. You are therefore not an atheist as you claim.

an atheist for your info is someone who does not believe in the existence of God not in supernatural. ok?

@ realdosh

realdosh:

an atheist for your info is someone who does not believe in the existence of God not in supernatural. ok?

if thats the definition of an atheist ,then you guys have nothing to talk about. believing neither in God or miracles doesnt mean they dont exist. It's just ur way of thinking.

And actually removing miracles from the context of christianity as a religion, miracles actually happen in our lives, the ones that you dont even know of realdosh. Havent you seen one?either in media or in real life? are all black magic or what u think it is?
And to add to ur misery u dont believe in the supernatural. I'd developed myself to a point where i can actually come out of my body and see my real self,what people call astral travel. There is a supernatural even greater ones beyond our human reasoning or realm.

What do you mean? You believe in the supernatural yet you do not Believe there is a God? Tell me th little you know about the supernatural realdosh.

seun? atheist? i never knew that hmmmmmmmmmmm

Could be that they find the topic so retarded and infantile that they can't be bothered with it.Quite plausible.

jerrymania:

Where are all the Atheists now? they can argue on simpler issues. make them talk now!

jagunlabi:

Could be that they find the topic so retarded and infantile that they can't be bothered with it.Quite plausible.

This thread reminds me of the old joke about the scientists telling God that they'd figured out how He made man from the dirt of the earth. God listened attentively and was quite impressed by their assiduous efforts. Indeed, the scientists were sure that they could make a man from dirt just as God had done.

Well, God challenged the scientists to prove this. So, the scientists set about gathering a sample of dirt when suddenly God interrupted and said, "Not so fast, there. I made my dirt from scratch, so you make your own, too!"

Allow me to offer, with all due respect, that this thread might be more clear if the term "miracle" were to first be defined. What is "miraculous" to one might not be so to another. Also, I implore that it be considered that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In other words, that something cannot be proved by any given means does not mean that it's not possible to be.

drrionelli:

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

WORD!!!!!

drrionelli:

Allow me to offer, with all due respect, that this thread might be more clear if the term "miracle" were to first be defined.

That would be a good start, indeed. Maybe Hume's definition can do the trick:

a transgression of a law of nature by a particular volition of the Deity, or by the interposition of some invisible agent.

He even goes further by establishing the conditions such a miracle should fulfill in order to be considered miraculous:

That no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavours to establish,

drrionelli:

What is "miraculous" to one might not be so to another.
Also, I implore that it be considered that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Indeed but only evidence can establish something to be true or false. In the absence of evidence for the existence of God, the truth claims concerning that deity are empty blabbering.

drrionelli:

In other words, that something cannot be proved by any given means does not mean that it's not possible to be.

No, but it might as well not exist.

Atheists are entiled to their opinion. In my view it is futile to convince them otherwise. Therefore only God can prove his existence to atheists and if an atheist have not recieved that proof yet, so be it. In addition it is also a waste of time to ask atheists to explain the existence of a miracle. It is absurd to ask people to explain what they do not believe in. Thus testimonies of miraculous experiences of others have no bearing on atheists. Except one is an expert on evolution, bigbang theory etc, it will be knive to use these concepts to prove or disprove anything.

@ Realdosh, only “pastors” who are “real” will be blessed in that way, but you must remember, Satan gives certain powers to . . . Those so called powerful me of God are nothing, but the devil. They were either tempted and failed or Satan helped them through the ranks. Everyone knows there are REAL pastors nad Fand pastors. Kindly stop only trying to define and compare Christianity to the FAKE ones.

Do we not owe it to ourselves to ascertain why some things are?

It used to be thought that there was a "supernatural" reason for sickness. Then we found out about viruses and bacteria. So, should we simply bring medical science to a screeching halt?

It used to be thought that there was a "man in the Moon." Then we went to the moon and found no such being.

Which aspects of our development are we to simply disregard because they don't agree with what we used to think?

That I can sit in the US and type these words and you--wherever you are--can read them instantaneously is something that our grandparents would have found wildly beyond belief. In fact they might have said that we'd need "supernatural" powers to do so.

The reasons why Atheists do not believe in Miracles

This organisation is the brain behind the refusal or dismissal of the existence of miracles or the supernatural by the skepticals.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t016.html

@DRRIONELI
That I can sit in the US and type these words and you--wherever you are--can read them instantaneously is something that our grandparents would have found wildly beyond belief. In fact they might have said that we'd need "supernatural" powers to do so.

Thanks man, you have just given the right answer for those who can reason with their heads.
but let me add more to that.
MIRACLES AS IT IS CALLED TODAY IS NOTHING BUT ARCHAIC OR ANCIENT SCIENCE, THE ABILITY TO PERFORM MIRACLES IS A SKILL THAT CAN BE ACQUIRED THROUGH DEEP AND INTENSE STUDIES AND DEDICATION TO THE ACT. THERE IS NOTHING LIKE MAGIC OR SUPERNATURAL, OR MIRACLES. COLLECTIVELY, THEY ARE ALL BRANCHES OF SCIENCE.
YOU CAN START PERFORMING MIRACLES IN A SHORT WHILE IF YOU PRACTICE VOODOO, WICCA AND ALL OTHER ANCIENT SCIENCES. BUT OUR SO CALLED MEN OF GOD WON'T REVEAL THESE SECRETS TO YOU SO THAT YOU WON'T SPOIL MARKET FOR THEM.
AS FOR ME, I PRACTICED WICCA FOR UP TO A YEAR AND I FOUND MYSELF DOING SOME STRANGE THINGS I NEVER IMAGINED. BUT I MUST WARN YOU, IT IS VERY RISKY AND REQIURES ABSOLUTE CONCENTRATION AND DEDICATION. AND I DONT THINK I WANT TO LIVE MY WHOLE LIFE PRACTICING THIS ACT. IF I HAD DECLARED GOD'S CALLING AT THAT TIME, PEOPLE WOULD HAVE BELIEVED ME AND THOUGHT IT WAS FROM SOME GOD UP IN HEAVEN THAT GAVE ME THOSE POWERS.

ANYWAY I AM NOT THE TYPE THAT CAN BE DECIEVED BY OUR SO CALLED MEN OF GOD BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT THEY THINK THEY KNOW THAT WE DONT KNOW.

I MEAN, WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR US TO UNDERSTAND? JUST READ WHAT DRIONELLI WROTE BEFORE ME. THE FACT THAT U CAN SIT IN YOUR COMPUTER AND COMMUNICATE WITH PEOPLE THOUSAND OF MILES AWAY SHOULD BE TERMED SUPERNATURAL ISNT IT? THE FACT YOU CAN STAY IN YOUR LIVING ROOM AND TALK TO PEOPLE MILES WAY SHOULD ALSO BE TERMED SUPERNATURAL ISNT IT?
WHY HAVENT YOU ASKED THE SCIENTISTS HOW THEY BUILT THIS "SUPERNATURAL MACHINES" THAT CAN PERFORM SUCH "MIRACLES".

IN THE ANCIENT TIMES, WITCHES VIEW THE WORLD WITH THEIR CRYSTAL BALL. BUT NOW, WE VIEW THE WHOLE WORLD WITH OUR TV; I CAN SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN A AMERICA, ASIA AND EUROPE LIVE IN MY CRYSTAL BALL. ISNT THAT SUPERNATURAL?
SO LETS NOT DECIEVE OURSELVES, MIRACLES CAN SIMPLY BE DEFINED AS ANCIENT OR ARCHAIC SCIENCE, ITS AS SIMPLE AS THAT.


NOTE; i am an atheist: an atheist is simply one who denies or disbeliefs in the existence of a god or gods. an atheist can believe in any other things except god with good reasons as well. also the fact that weird things happen in this universe does not indicate that some god is behind them.
i am an atheist and i am proud of the heritage of atheism due to the way it embraces reason and critical thinking.
( former xtian, present atheist).

want to know more, ask me anything?

Bravo, Ascony!

I'm pathetically sorry for you and other former xtians/present atheist which presently most of you atheist are

Jerry boy, you guys amaze me sometimes. i have just clearly explained the existence of miracles and now u are sorry for me, what else do you want? read my previous post very carefully and understand my point before u throw words at me.

.

Its sadening that in life you conform to an idea because something or someone drove you to a belief.

its also sadening that in life u conform to an idea just because u were born into it and everybody around u believes the same.
But let me make something clear to u my friend, nothing or anybody drove me to atheism.
it was out of my own critical thinking and observations. Before i became an atheist, i was a very good xtian,and  i don't think u will ever understand how far i went. this man writing u this letter was once an evangelist who travels from place to place preaching "the word of God". i spent most of my time either in church actvities or studying the word of God. To cut d short story short, then came a time when i coudnt believe what i preach anymore because i began to discover many unbelievable things about God, his word and religion as whole, and this was as a result of my indepth dedication in the things of God that led me to this discovery.
suprisingly, before then, i had never met any atheist, i don't even know that there are people who call themselves atheists. it was a shoker for me when i discovered that there are people like me six months after i had already became an atheist. i even thought that i was the only one that accomadates such beliefs in the whole world. Anyway, let me not bore u with the history of my atheism. just want to point out that no one made me become an atheist. it all came out of my own personal reason and criitical thinking.

The existence of a "one time true-now conflicting" Idea shows an imbalance in the system

No, it shows that man is now getting wiser.

.

You are confused, and troubled.

confused, troubled, how? i made myself vividly clear. if anyone is confused, and troubled, then that MIGHT be u.

You are ready and equal to prolong an argument about what you used to believe in but now its utter rubbish

exactly the point.

You feel distrust and negative, but do you guys, if i may ask delight in evil? do you believe in evil?

now u are going way out of reasonable points. u are accusing me of things i know nothing about. distrust and negaive? by the way, do you think that atheists are evil, how's that?
Evil in my dictionary says"morally bad or wicked". and i am neither morally bad nor wicked; neither have i seen any atheist who is evil. i don't do anything that hurts my neighbour, afterall, what would gain from that? evil will only complicate ones life and also make people to hate u, and i don;t think that anybody in his right senses wants that.

What if your disbelief in the bible arose from your misunderstanding of ezekiel's vision when he saw chariots flying in the skies? you would term it impossible and illogical? what if he was in real terms talking about space crafts?

what if he was just imagining things or maybe ha had a high fever?

I give room to reason

if u, for one moment,would give room to reason, u will automatically become an atheist. Theism is a product of faith, while atrheism is a product of reason.

and go forward, not going backward to unite the basics of all ideas

the only way to move forward is to go backward and correct the previous mistakes.

Find a balance in your religion, understand life and know why life exist.Know why atheism can be true and also false

oh yeah, which religion are u talking about, the inbalanced, dogmatic christianity? look my brother, i have been a xtian (fulltime) and now an atheist. i have been in both worlds, and now i have reached my conclusion.

The atheist in the house we are still waiting to hear from you cos i ponder on why sm1 will claim he doesn't believe in the existence of God and his miracles

@jerrymania
woteva.just curious to know their views on the topic_{meant no harm}

Which miracles? Where?

To Ascony, our former evangelist:

At the various periods you went evagelising, can you share with us any one of your experiences where you had to contend with evil or diabolocal powers? Have you any of such an experience?
What point marked the exact turning point of your life? What occassion, or experience or act?
Where you coerced into "giving" your life to Christ?
What was propelling you at that time?
Finally, since you now claim there is no God, can you please tell me how the simplest cells (like an Amoeba) came about using any principle, science or anything.

Lets start with these questions.

@jerrymania

Lets start from here.Ascony just one question. Can Atheism be true and at the same time false

whats the point in asking this question? why would i become an atheist if i dont believe it to be true. sure, atheism is true and cannot be false. atheism embraces reason and critcal thinking which is the sure way to arriving at truth.

@cgift

At the various periods you went evagelising, can you share with us any one of your experiences where you had to contend with evil or diabolocal powers? Have you any of such an experience?

sincerely, i was just an ordinary evangelist not pastor chris. it seems like u watch too much religious movies.

What point marked the exact turning point of your life? What occassion, or experience or act?

my brother, its a long story. it was a gradual process though. but all i can remember is that it all started from the bible. i began to see certain things that led me to ask certain questions that no had no reasonable. then i concluded with one answer 'something is definitely wrong somewhere'.
When I was still a Christian, I studied the bible with all my might, because I wanted to know God more and to serve him in truth and in spirit. I loved God; I trusted and believed in him, I did my best with all my heart to make sure that he is pleased with me. Sin was omitted in my life and I overcame almost every temptation of sin that came my way. My conscience alone will bear me witness of how dedicated I was to this service. I even got to the extent of preaching the gospel to my friends, relations, and people around me. My entire dream was to be a righteous man in the sight of God and man.

The bible was my best friend then, I cannot go anywhere without my bible, even when I am lying on my bed, it is under my pillow. I don’t just carry the bible around; I read it more often than any other book, I never doubted that the bible is the word of God, full of wisdom and vital knowledge.

Then one fateful morning, as I was about to pray as usual, I was reading the bible when I accidentally bumped across a portion in the bible that changed my entire perception in a twinkle of an eye. At first, I thought it was the work of the devil, to turn my mind away from God, but later, I began to realize that I was about making the greatest discovery of my life.
I respected God and I never doubted him in anything, I never said anything bad about God nor had I ever been in contact with anybody that does not believe in God.
All my life, I have longed for the truth and the real answers to life, I thought that God was the answer, but on that fateful morning as I read that portion, I began to give life a much more deeper thought.

It was in the book of Job21: 7. He wrote and I quote “why does God let evil men live, let them grow and prosper? They have children and grand children and live to watch them all grow up: God does not bring disaster on their homes . . . . They live out their lives in peace and quietly die without suffering”.

From that very first time that I read this portion, there was an instantaneous change in my way of thinking, a million questions flashed in my head at that very moment. I pondered over this verse throughout that whole day but couldn’t make out anything reasonable from it. I asked myself this question that Job was asking but couldn’t find any meaning answer to it.
I tried to find answers from anybody who I think might know, but no one knew the answer or gave me any reasonable explanation, everything they said did not make any sense rather it got the whole thing more complicated,
from that point onwards, i began to discover more and more contradictions in the bible than i never imagined. (i could just go on my brother but i'm not a good typist)

Where you coerced into "giving" your life to Christ?
What was propelling you at that time?

why would u ask that kind of question? who was ever forced to giving his life to christ?
i was broght up in a very good christian home by good Christian parents who trained me up in the way I should grow and never for once did I depart from it. The only thing I departed from was that I stopped believing in God just as any grown up person would stop believing that Santa Claus exists.

Finally, since you now claim there is no God, can you please tell me how the simplest cells (like an Amoeba) came about using any principle, science or anything.

nothing was created, everything that exists has been and will always be. life is nothing but a cycle of evolution. oh! u think that the amoeba cannot exist just exist without being created by God abi? then if God created the amoeba, then something must have created God, and if something must ahve created God, then something must ahve created that something that created God, and if something must have created that something-------abeg bros, i am tired of typing, i think i have made my point.

@ ASCONY

Pardon me. we would love to everything about your defection to Atheism.