Miracles, simply a matter of perception. Two people can observe the same event, one person sees something a bit unusual the other believes he has seen a "miracle". What could be called a miracle 50 years ago may be normal in the present. As human beings we learn more about the world we live in everyday, our powers of perception increase with each generation. We cannot therefore rush to explain what we do not understand as a miracle.

Perhaps some people need to believe in miracles because it gives them hope. They need to believe that magic can happen because otherwise life looks bleak.

@jerrymania

we or "you" wants to know everything. i think i have said everything, at least, the major point has been expressed. if u want me to start describing my whole life history. then u have to organise a press conference.

Ascony:

Sincerely, i was just an ordinary evangelist not pastor chris. it seems like u watch too much religious movies.

Lol! Nice snipe at me! Unfortunately bro, i hardly do. I sleep more often than watch TV. My Audio-Video is not sophisticated

Ascony:
my brother, its a long story. it was a gradual process though. but all i can remember is that it all started from the bible. i began to see certain things that led me to ask certain questions that no had no reasonable. then i concluded with one answer 'something is definitely wrong somewhere'.

You had probably wanted somthing to be wrong. Permit me to say you sound as if a sword was dazzled before you to commit you into doing those rituals without an inherent [b]revelational knowledge [/b]of what you were doing.

Ascony:
When I was still a Christian, I studied the bible with all my might, because I wanted to know God more and to serve him in truth and in spirit. I loved God; I trusted and believed in him, I did my best with all my heart to make sure that he is pleased with me. Sin was omitted in my life and I overcame almost every temptation of sin that came my way. My conscience alone will bear me witness of how dedicated I was to this service. I even got to the extent of preaching the gospel to my friends, relations, and people around me. My entire dream was to be a righteous man in the sight of God and man.The bible was my best friend then, I cannot go anywhere without my bible, even when I am lying on my bed, it is under my pillow. I don’t just carry the bible around; I read it more often than any other book, I never doubted that the bible is the word of God, full of wisdom and vital knowledge.

Commonplace Rhetorics.

Ascony:
Then one fateful morning, as I was about to pray as usual, I was reading the bible when I accidentally bumped across a portion in the bible that changed my entire perception in a twinkle of an eye. At first, I thought it was the work of the devil, to turn my mind away from God, but later, I began to realize that I was about making the greatest discovery of my life.

I respected God and I never doubted him in anything, I never said anything bad about God nor had I ever been in contact with anybody that does not believe in God.
All my life, I have longed for the truth and the real answers to life, I thought that God was the answer, but on that fateful morning as I read that portion, I began to give life a much more deeper thought.

Ascony:
It was in the book of Job21: 7. He wrote and I quote “why does God let evil men live, let them grow and prosper? They have children and grand children and live to watch them all grow up: God does not bring disaster on their homes . . . . They live out their lives in peace and quietly die without suffering”.

That question is perhaps the simplest of all as far as I am concerned. Has Jesus told you that he came to pluck out anybody that was not in submission to him? No! During the period of the law, God gave so many conditions that were expected to put everyman in order and 'coerce' make them to serve Him. He stated categorically in most cases that any violation of some of those laws would lad to instant death or immediate penance. This was followed with utmost diligence by the Isrealites.

But the law had a limitation, Rms. 8:3; For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:.

The law could not change hearts which is the main ingredient of transformation that God wanted.

He already knew the way out. He had to bring in grace by the death of His Son. With grace, we could now love God. The love of God is not measured by your works. Your works and rituals can only be effective when hinged upon his grace. It becomes frustrating when you live by efforts. But when you live by grace, his love flows.

Back to the main issue:

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Job, out of his frustration cursed the day he was born! No one could have been subjected to what he went through without almost doubting the his faith. He was mere human like you are. What if that had happened to you, as it did Job, I guess you would have committed suicide? You know the rest of the story, Job did not sin against God. He was restored.

The scripture above gives us the answer, God gives man a long rope of repentance as Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


God is not interested in the death of a sinner but that he should come to the knowledge of his saving grace.

Ascony:
From that very first time that I read this portion, there was an instantaneous change in my way of thinking, a million questions flashed in my head at that very moment. I pondered over this verse throughout that whole day but couldn’t make out anything reasonable from it. I asked myself this question that Job was asking but couldn’t find any meaning answer to it.
I tried to find answers from anybody who I think might know, but no one knew the answer or gave me any reasonable explanation, everything they said did not make any sense rather it got the whole thing more complicated,
from that point onwards, i began to discover more and more contradictions in the bible than i never imagined. (i could just go on my brother but i'm not a good typist)

Why do you think Job did not sin? He knew God was real. He knew God as the one who Alpha & Omega who can do all things (but not lie). So he restrained himself. He could have listened to the voice of his wife who adviced him to curse God and die! He did not. He knew God was real.

Let the wheat and the chaff grow together. Perhps, someday the chaff might have a change of hearts and become as wheats.

Ascony:

nothing was created, everything that exists has been and will always be.

By what supposition? Why have they always being? Do you know what brings about sleep and why you know nothing while sleeping? My summation: You cant hav answers to very question of life. That makes life more than what meets the eyes. There is the spiritual. Have you seen magic in display before? By what powers?

Ascony:
life is nothing but a cycle of evolution. oh! u think that the amoeba cannot exist just exist without being created by God abi? then if God created the amoeba, then something must have created God, and if something must ahve created God, then something must ahve created that something that created God, and if something must have created that something-------abeg bros, i am tired of typing, i think i have made my point.

Life is not an evolution. Because you where not there when your father was born, you need a documented evidence to tell you how,when,where,etc., he was born, You need birth certificates and among other things. You do not say he has always been. He was born! He has not always been.

The bible is our documented evidence of creation. What i should expect you to do is take all the accounts of creation from all other sources of faith and try weighing their accounts and see whether it can be re-created. No one can create life! Scientist have tried but to no avail! It is only God that can.

Also, your summation that if God created Amoeba, then somehthing must have created God is not strong enough. However, the story of God's creation is too enigmatic as it is beyond our scope.
I have been in sessions watching demons/familiar spirits leave people. I have seen it, it is not hearsay. I mean practical acts of exorcism through the name of Jesus Christ. I beg, it Christ is more real than what I can see bro. Is it today that doctors have being condemning patients only for the a supernatural cur to come to what they had condemned? Doctors who are true to themselves would explain to you that they have too many cases they cant explain medically. It transcends the physical into the ethereal.

Life was created it has not always being.

I've noticed something that strikes me as odd.

The overwhelming majority of the postings with respect to the subject of atheism, both here and in other threads of this type, have a propensity to compare and/or contrast atheism with Christianity.  I invite you to take a look--why are there so few references made to other religions?  Is not atheism, by its very definition, inconsistent with non-Christian faiths as well?   Perhaps it would be interesting to hear points of view which represent other, non-Christian vantages.

That being said, allow me to raise another question:  To any person of theistic belief, are those who do not share your belief considered to be compromising to your way of thinking more or less than one who holds no belief at all? 
In other words, what is more disturbing to a Christian--one who believes as a Muslim or a Buddhist, for example, or one who is an atheist?

@cgift
Its not that i can't answer all your questions, but the problem is with u understanding my replies, even some of the questions u asked had already ben answered its just that you were not paying attention. the more i try to answer your questions the more you will ask me. and the worst it that i am very lazy when it comes to typing.
Atheism is a very complicated issue and it takes extreme reasoning to understand its concepts.
For you to understand atheism, it cannot work by typing and sending in forums just like we are doing. dialogue is the surest way. there is nothing that i can write or post here in this forum that can convince. just as there is nothing that you can that can also convince me. u are a fundamentalist christian and u can not just understand the concepts of atheism by just reading a thread in a forum(though it can be  possible for the liberal thinker). it took me almost 6months to be really convinced that there is no God even though i was the one telling it to myself. i couldnt just believe it even though the evidences were right there before my face. Therefore if it took me that long, i don't expect anybody just to believe me because i sent some few posts in a forum.
finally, all i can say is that dialogue is the surest way to remedy this situation.

Hi @Ascony,

Ascony:

Atheism is a very complicated issue and it takes extreme reasoning to understand its concepts.

I've heard that line somewhere before, and I wonder why it has to be so "complicated"?

I will not defend those that claim atheism neither will I judge them. I believe that before a rational, reasonable adult would take a decision to believe in their unbelief a lot of thought must have gone towards it even to the very point of questioning the very essence of one's existence. As a result of the many misconceptions and misrepresentations that has been handed down throughout the history of mankind as to the kind of belief systems that best suits our composite definitions of society, the real truth as to origins has been beclouded and it is in this state that modern man has sought to question the very reality of a supreme deity responsible for the design of existence in which we are witness of even as of the present.

In some ways, I quite understand the mindset of the atheist and I have been priviledged to have intelligent conversation with a few and I dare say that some of these guys are more spiritually enlightened than most who claim to be devout adherents of the many world religions. It is my belief that deep down in the mind of the average atheist is still that one great yearning that the real truth as to the mystery of our existence be laid bare and open for all to grasp and understand and not to be shrouded in some secrecy and mystery as is the present practice of world religions.

The founders of most (if not all) of the worlds major religions might have had some sort of communication and relationship with some supreme spiritual entity, but their surviving followers have done a hash of a job in the dissemination of the message of their masters. I for one know that were Jesus to be alive today, the entirety of Christiandom would be strangers to him. Same might apply to other religions as atheism is a rebellion against all established faith based belief systems irrespective of type or denomination.

The atheist I do not begrudge, the teaching of religion and it's twisting of divine truths and it's close association with the nations, now that I will not condone. I only hope that those who claim atheism would in time with the impartial and unbiased knowledge gained from study and research (and not the blind atheism that has no basis in arguement and sense), most of these guys will come to the realisation that no matter your religious affiliations, the God Jehovah still answers questions. And one day all your questions shall be answered.

Job might have been the first atheist documented, but he made a choice to keep on believing the One, true and living creator. Una go make that same decision sooner or later, no mind Babylon and all her followers.

drrionelli:
I've noticed something that strikes me as odd.

The overwhelming majority of the postings with respect to the subject of atheism, both here and in other threads of this type, have a propensity to compare and/or contrast atheism with Christianity. I invite you to take a look--why are there so few references made to other religions? Is not atheism, by its very definition, inconsistent with non-Christian faiths as well? Perhaps it would be interesting to hear points of view which represent other, non-Christian vantages.

Its no oddity my guy. This may be probably because the guy in question used to be a former christian and the ripostes had to b in that light as well.

drrionelli:
That being said, allow me to raise another question: To any person of theistic belief, are those who do not share your belief considered to be compromising to your way of thinking more or less than one who holds no belief at all?
In other words, what is more disturbing to a Christian--one who believes as a Muslim or a Buddhist, for example, or one who is an atheist?

The position of a christian is this, Christ is The Way, The Truth & The Life. Nobody comes to the Father, EXCEPT through Him. No other way. Whether a- or theist, in as much as it is not of Christ, it is the wrong way. Its not a matter of liberalism that others are wont to preach thes days. Its no 'self-consciouness' thing neither is it a religion of all-inclusion. You are either in Christ (and gain access to the Kingdom of Heaven) or you are locked out! May younot be locked out in Jesus' name!

Ascony :


Atheism is a very complicated issue and it takes extreme reasoning to understand its concepts.

why?

Ascony :

For you to understand atheism, it cannot work by typing and sending in forums just like we are doing.

why noy not?

Ascony :

finally, all i can say is that dialogue is the surest way to remedy this situation.

Dont run away o. Go and employ a typist if that will resolve it.

ajadrage :

Job might have been the first atheist documented, but he made a choice to keep on believing the One, true and living creator. Una go make that same decision sooner or later, no mind Babylon and all her followers.

AMEN to that prayer! AMEN!!!

Atheism is a very complicated issue and it takes extreme reasoning to understand its concepts.

why?

atheism is complicated to u just as christianity is complcated to the buddhist. The ability to reason critically is not what everybody can develpoe easily. Religion was born out of 'faith' and faith is very simple, all u need to do is believe and its done, but atheism was born out of reason, and reason is not that simple, u have to study, research, and think very critically before any conclusions.

Quote from: Ascony
For you to understand atheism, it cannot work by typing and sending in forums just like we are doing.

why noy not?

Quote from: Ascony
finally, all i can say is that dialogue is the surest way to remedy this situation.


Dont run away o. Go and employ a typist if that will resolve it.

run away? thats the funniest thing ive ever heard. employing a typist will not resolve the matter.i think i have posted a whole lot of things that is more than enough to make u reason critically but its like u guys just read it like bla bla bla and shove it off. there was this guy INFIDEL, this guy did a great job more than i can ever do in his topic "10 reasons
why God doesnt exist yeserday, tomorrow and 4ever" . but the kind of response i saw from his debaters shows me that this is not a thing that people can understand by just reading a few threads. and this is why i said that dialogue is and will still be the best way to solve this problem. i have been nursing the idea of organising a little seminar involving some atheists and theists (christians most especially) with the topic to be something like "does God really exist?. but the risk is still what i am considering.
please i have to go now till next time, duty calls,

@cgift:
OK, I understand what your post is saying, especially this part:

The position of a christian is this, Christ is The Way, The Truth & The Life. Nobody comes to the Father, EXCEPT through Him. No other way. Whether a- or theist, in as much as it is not of Christ, it is the wrong way. Its not a matter of liberalism that others are wont to preach thes days. Its no 'self-consciouness' thing neither is it a religion of all-inclusion. You are either in Christ (and gain access to the Kingdom of Heaven) or you are locked out! May younot be locked out in Jesus' name!

What I seek to determine is this: There are many manifestations of faith which are not Christian. And, I ask this in the spirit of seeking knowledge. Which is right? Which is correct? Which is the one in which one should believe?

Now, this is based on an assumption that there is a right faith in which to believe. To that end, how does one determine that his/her is the definitive one not only for him/herself, but for all others?

Also, I beg that we all consider this: If one's belief is, indeed, the only way to believe, at the categorical exclusion of all others, then doesn't that make atheists and theists a lot more alike than different?

drrionelli:

What I seek to determine is this: There are many manifestations of faith which are not Christian. And, I ask this in the spirit of seeking knowledge. Which is right? Which is correct? Which is the one in which one should believe?

Concerning differet manifestations of faiths for theists:

Every normal human being, not humanoids or androids have a fair knowledge of what 'God' should be like. If you take a poll, you would agree with me that the proponents of the existence of God would be more than the opponents and these pro-God would rather ascribe or expect the God in question to have certain attributes including ove, peace, compassion, powers, authority, and othe extra-ordinary capabiliities. Since many also believe that the God in question cannot com down in physically, he must have messengers or prophets (as we are wont to call them) and these carriers of the 'God-news' would have the exact attributes of that God. In other words, we would expect to see that God in the prophets/messengers' way of life, his words, actions and thought patterns.

That was just the background. Now to the main thing.

When studying faiths and belief you consider the following:

[list]
[li]What statements of the prophet can we hold on to that gives us assurances of salvation[/li]
[li]what certainties do we have from the prophet concerning himself and that of those who follow him[/li]
[li]what lifestyles of the prophet is worth emulating[/li]
[li]what are the implications of the sayings of the prophet and their sacred texts on peace with my neighbours[/li]
[li]What are the levels of relevance of the doctrines of the religion to normalcy and reasonability today[/li]
[li]What is the nature of the birth of the prophet and what does he call himself.[/li]
[/list]

These questions are perhaps not exhaustive.

Now weigh all the prophets side-by-side these guidelines and tell me whch you think can stand the test of time with all assurances. Judge for yourself.

drrionelli:
Now, this is based on an assumption that there is a right faith in which to believe. To that end, how does one determine that his/her is the definitive one not only for him/herself, but for all others?

Also, I beg that we all consider this: If one's belief is, indeed, the only way to believe, at the categorical exclusion of all others, then doesn't that make atheists and theists a lot more alike than different?

I think my contribution above should now suffice